Brawl Character Match-Up chart

[TehBo49]

@ DanGR: But Naryu's love is laggy enough to be punished. If I'm approaching with thunderjolt & she reflects it, I can midair jump over it or QAC around it & attack. Once I'm next to her I can use fsmash or dsmash or even an aerial to punish it.

Din's fire can be punished too. If I jump over the flame, it can no longer hit me. Thus I can QAC over it & punish. QAC is fast enough that I can reach Zelda before she can react.

 

[DanGR]

I'm not seeing nayru's getting punished by anything other than a quick fsmash or a quick running grab. It has little lag and can't get punished by a QACed aerial.(maybe dair into the ground?) Does anyone have an example of that^ from a match or something?

I'm not really arguing that you can't punish Din's. It's very punishable.

 

[TehBo49]

I tried looking for a match but they seem to be nonexistent (good ones, anyway). Naryu's Love is slow enough to punish, I've done it. Just QAC next to her outside of Naryu's & wait for the crystals to disappear. Then you can grab her. Or you can just outprioritize it with a dsmash. You can also bait her to use a smash attack with circledashing.

 

[DanGR]

I'll take your word for it. I've never seen it done though.

Edit: does anyone else agree or disagree that Olimar>Snake? It's a big matchup, so I'd like a second opinion on this.

 

[Shök]

I do.
Snake likes big targets so he can land his explosions on every part of their body. Olimar is small, so he can't be hit as easily.
Snake doesn't have to many fast moves that he can use to eradicate Pikmin and if he does, move deterioration of whatever it's called happens. So throw on teh Pikmin and Watch the Damage Fly!
Snake's Recovery is easily stuntable by Olimar's Dair.
He's also a big Target, perfect for Ken Combos.
Any Pikmin F-Smash can finish him off with the damage done, Right?

I have to say Olimar>Snake.
Anyone else Agree?

 

[ShadowLink84]

I would have to disagree. I think its more towards the neutral end. I find that on stages like battlefield Olimar can really hurt Snake since he can't space as well.

On FD though its an easier time.
C4 and mines are great for spacing and grenades can be used against Olimar more easily
Main reason is that if I use snake on BF against an Olimar, I am a little more limited in terms of movement and I can't really rely on my explosives and spacing.
Olimar already outspaces him in terms of head to head combat, Snake really needs the space to try and limit Olimar's ground ability, something he cannot normally perform on BF.

*shrug* I am not a good snake user anyway T_T

 

[Kiwikomix]

It's matchups like Olimar vs Snake that really just depend on the stage.
It makes me think maybe FD isn't really that neutral after all....... >_>

 

[DanGR]

I would have to disagree. I think its more towards the neutral end. I find that on stages like battlefield Olimar can really hurt Snake since he can't space as well.

On FD though its an easier time.
C4 and mines are great for spacing and grenades can be used against Olimar more easily
Main reason is that if I use snake on BF against an Olimar, I am a little more limited in terms of movement and I can't really rely on my explosives and spacing.
Olimar already outspaces him in terms of head to head combat, Snake really needs the space to try and limit Olimar's ground ability, something he cannot normally perform on BF.

*shrug* I am not a good snake user anyway T_T

Olimar hurts him on stages with platforms, yes. I don't agree, though, that Olimar doesn't hurt him on FD. (Remember that FD isn't half the stages we play on. Yoshi's Island and Smashville are both more similiar to battlefield than FD, imo. Even IF he were more advantaged than Olimar on FD, it wouldn't make up for the other stages)

C4 and mines don't hurt olimar very much on FD. Mines can be blown up with pikmin, and the C4 is hardly a threat to anyone if snake can't use his grenades effectively. The pikmin throw and the disjointed hitbox on his fsmash help eliminate grenades. In fact, Snake will be much more pressured than Olimar anyways b/c of the pikmin on his face at just about all times. He'll be more worried about them than anything else.

"Snake really needs the space to try and limit Olimar's ground ability, something he cannot normally perform on BF."

I don't see Snake being able to limit Olimar's ground ability on any stage, even FD. Could you explain?

All in all, Olimar "outcamps" him, so he has to approach. Olimar has a very hard ground game to get past, and Snake's aerials are too slow to approach from the air. Most of Olimar's moves send Snake airborne, which is where Olimar thrives on the larger characters. Grenades are worse than the pikmin pressure, and the mines(not C4) can be detonated by the pikmin. All snake has going for him is his KO power if he can even get Olimar up in his %. If any character is a counter, I think it would be Olimar.

 

[DarkStraw]

Alot of the matchups on the chart seem right, the only problem i see with this thread is alot of people are arguing things "on paper" as in, well if you doa fair ill airdoge and so and so... and that works for basic stuff i guess, but if you get too deep in that your just going to **** everything up and nothing will make sense. Some things look great on paper (communism?) I suggest if you are going to argue against a matchup in this thread you need to meet several requirements. (this dosent apply to people simply comming to the thread and stating that this is their expereince but more applies to people who seem obsessed with the thread and certain characters)

1. be good with that character,at LEAST better than average (theres not much point of arguing a matchup when both players suck)
2.I would think experience vs character you are arguing against (again they need to be GOOD)
3.I assume this is a non wifi matchup, but if you do have wifi experience, you at least need to have a good or great connection on the characters you claim to have expereience against/with.



ALSO, brawl was just released not too long ago, i dont think the thread starter is going to stop updating it any time soon, so theres no mad fire rush to get everything changed, if theres a big mistake in the chart, it will eventually get fixed (assuming it is a big mistake).

 

[DanGR]

I understand what you're saying, but there's not really a way to discuss matchups without refering to specific situations within the matchup.

Ex. Zelda can't use her fair to approach Olimar b/c it can be sg-ed unlike it can against other characters. Is that too specific? I'd say this arguement has met the requirements to be used as an effective reason(whether small or large) why Zelda can't approach Olimar well. Where's the limit? That's the question we all have to answer here.

 

[IvanEva]

- Snake can make Olimar approach by being a little ***** and just sitting back throwing things. The biggest problem in this match-up, which makes me hesitant to change it to Olimar's favor, is that Snake's forward and up tilt kill Olimar at fairly low percentages. Forward tilt in particular has almost Pikmin-like range and will stuff any Olimar attack.

- Saying that Ganon needs more advantages doesn't help unless you specify who you believe he has an advantage over.

- To those that wish to play vs. Wifi (and no, it won't DIRECTLY affect the chart or anything but it'll at least give me an idea of what it's like to play a decent Sonic/Ganondorf/Whoever) I'll be at home all Tuesday. PM me if you're up for it as time is always pretty scarce.

- Bolding things doesn't help. It's annoying. Repeating them on occasion, however, does as I tend to miss things/gloss over things and then forget to change them if I agree with them.

- Why do you believe that Shiek has an advantage over the spacies? Do you really feel that that tilt stuff is really THAT big against them?

- Somebody else making another chart would be interesting. I think that everybody has their own mental chart and that most people's probably aren't identical. In the end, remember that this chart is basically a representation of what I myself believe about the game.

Question: if the Ice Climber's throw thingies are so broken, how come they're not winning tournaments all over the place?

Question 2: Lucario's chain grab? Is it good enough to affect any match-up? Got any videos?

Question 3: Is it possible to embed a Flash thingy into a post?

Question 4: How is it that Dedede kicks so much tournament *** but is at a disadvantage, however mild, to so many characters? Something can't be right. I mean, on paper it looks right but... it can't be...

 

[DanGR]

- Snake can make Olimar approach by being a little ***** and just sitting back throwing things. The biggest problem in this match-up, which makes me hesitant to change it to Olimar's favor, is that Snake's forward and up tilt kill Olimar at fairly low percentages. Forward tilt in particular has almost Pikmin-like range and will stuff any Olimar attack.

Olimar outcamps Snake. This is crucial to your understanding of this matchup. Snake HAS to approach Olimar. He can't sit back and throw ANYthing. Grenades are stopped midair by much faster pikmin, and the nikitas stop in place when they're hit by pikmin also. Sure uptilt and ftilt kill quickly, but I'm trying to argue that Snake has a very rough time getting Olimar's percentage in the first place, when he has to approach one of the best defensive characters in the game=hard. Did you know that both ftilt and uptilt are both used to kill pikmin? What other choices does he have that can't be punished as easily? When you kill pikmin, you suffer DR on your moves. (diminishing returns) did you know that both ftilt and uptilt can be shieldgrabbed at the outermost range of the attack? I'm not seeing what's convincing you that it's even right now...

- Somebody else making another chart would be interesting. I think that everybody has their own mental chart and that most people's probably aren't identical. In the end, remember that this chart is basically a representation of what I myself believe about the game.

I'd volunteer to make another chart if everyone approved. I'd need someone to give me a format to use though...

 

[gantrain05]

i don't know, maybe im playing ******** snakes and my friends all completely suck at the game, but i never have any problems defeating snake, especially with fox or falco snake can rarely even hit me with his slow arials and smashes, all he has is his tilts as his ranged moves are reflected or redirected, even with pit i have a pretty easy time against snake, i don't know much about the olimar matchup you guys are talking about as i don't play him cuz i play enuf characters already and he didn't seem to interesting to me, if someone could post a video of a good snake player i'd love that so i can see what he is really capable of.

 

[Kiwikomix]

@ IvanEva: Kirby > Ike. Maybe even >>.
Ike is a heavy character with an extremely gimpable recovery. He moves slowly enough in every respect that Kirby can just hang out just outside his range and punish his slower moves... which would be every one of his moves. If Ike tries to charge up his sideB, inhale him and he's dead. Kirby can dominate Ike with grab combos, u-tilts, and uair juggles. All of his moves come out faster than Ike's. Really, there's no contest in this matchup.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Olimar hurts him on stages with platforms, yes. I don't agree, though, that Olimar doesn't hurt him on FD. (Remember that FD isn't half the stages we play on. Yoshi's Island and Smashville are both more similiar to battlefield than FD, imo. Even IF he were more advantaged than Olimar on FD, it wouldn't make up for the other stages)

True but if we are to assume neutral stages those are easily the most played.
Olimar can put the hurt on Snake in FD, but its not as great as in BF.

C4 and mines don't hurt olimar very much on FD. Mines can be blown up with pikmin, and the C4 is hardly a threat to anyone if snake can't use his grenades effectively.

Except we are assuming Snake does use the grenades efficiently.
During which it can be difficult for Olimar.
Send a nikita up into the air. Send some grenades while the nikita drops. Pressure him, omething that is much more difficult on BF since the number of options for Snake is not available.

The pikmin throw and the disjointed hitbox on his fsmash help eliminate grenades. In fact, Snake will be much more pressured than Olimar anyways b/c of the pikmin on his face at just about all times. He'll be more worried about them than anything else.

Except that Snake can delay his grenade throws so that when Olimar goes to destroy them they blow up in his face. Tossing tem from the air is also viable since the speed at which he throws the grenades may be lesser but the explosive range makes up for it.
He isn't as forced toa pproach Olimar as he would in BF.

I don't see Snake being able to limit Olimar's ground ability on any stage, even FD. Could you explain?

Mostly through efficient use of grenades and nikita. Since the nikita can be canceled anytime.
The main reason BF is more disadvantageous for Snake than FD is because the platforms limit the usage of his spacing aiblity as well as his ability to use the NIkita.
On FD I find that using the nikita , grenades and mines to continuously pressure Olimar is more successful than other tactics I could employ on BF.

It does limit his options since he has more to contend with on FD than on BF where the platforms and size limitation of the stage could cause Snake difficiulty.

All in all, Olimar "outcamps" him, so he has to approach. Olimar has a very hard ground game to get past, and Snake's aerials are too slow to approach from the air. Most of Olimar's moves send Snake airborne, which is where Olimar thrives on the larger characters. Grenades are worse than the pikmin pressure, and the mines(not C4) can be detonated by the pikmin. All snake has going for him is his KO power if he can even get Olimar up in his %. If any character is a counter, I think it would be Olimar.

Well the grenades and nikita as well as C4 would be methods of allowing Snake to approach. Since Olimarwould constantly have to deal with a barrage of projectiles wouldn't it be more difficult to deal with? Comuple with Snake's DAC I think he would fair better where there are no platforms to get in his way, and the stage is larger where Olimar can't approach relatively quickly and safely.

He can use the pikmin to break the mines but what would be the point? Snake would already be hcucking grenades and nikita missiles afterwards.

I am thinking Olimar has an advantage but that Snake has a better chance depending on what stage he is upon. Mainly since many of his projectiles rely on having an open ground.

 

[VEC]

Luigi HUGE DIS ON MK, and G&W

 

[Matumakka]

i AGREE vec

 

[Desire]

great job! this is very useful !

 

[Judge Judy]

I'm glad to see that Mario is at least neutral with Sonic now but why is he at a disadvantage to DK and Ike?

 

[Mr. Escalator]

I( would assume it's because of his lack of KO potential compared to their great potential. Range on their killing moves vs him probably has a lot to do with it.

 

[Judge Judy]

But they're both slow, have trouble against projectiles, and niether one of them is all the swift in the air, it's like saying that Bowser and Ganondorf have an advantage.

 

[gallax]

I( would assume it's because of his lack of KO potential compared to their great potential. Range on their killing moves vs him probably has a lot to do with it.

defianately. another thing i think gets mario at a disadvantage is his range compared to DK and ike. mario needs to get in fairly close to damage.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Except that Ike's moves are all teleraphed while DK's are not.
Mario should at the very least be neutral with Ike.

 

[???????]

This is a tough match-up to call; although Ike and Donkey Kong clearly outrange Mario, they're both quite susceptible to Mario's projectiles, air game, and gimping abilities. It's hard for me to see the match-up as a clear disadvantage to Mario, but I can definitely see the issues Mario would have.

*ShadowLink84, you have another good point as well*

 

[BoTastic!]

Mario uptilts both of them to death. Gimping them is also fairly easy with Mario. but thy both outclass him in both Range and power. Projectiles force them to approach. Dk has less lag then Ike. Ike and mario r probably even at best.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Except that Ike's moves are all teleraphed while DK's are not.

Ike has some deceptively fast moves like his Bair and Ftilt, so he isnt completely telegraphed.

they're both quite susceptible to Mario's projectiles, air game, and gimping abilities

While they're certainly susceptible to his fireball spam and approach, they aren't completely shut down by this. It's a helpful way of spacing and damage dealing, but they will get to Mario eventually, and when they do, they will rack up some good damage, and kill you far earlier.

They arent shut down by Mario's airgame so much either. DK is quite formidable their, and Ike can counter to avoid excessive juggling.

DK isnt gimped as easily as Ike, but you have a point with Ike.

I do think Ike vs Mario can be argued for even, but DK feels like he has the upperhand.

 

[???????]

Ike has some deceptively fast moves like his Bair and Ftilt, so he isnt completely telegraphed.



While they're certainly susceptible to his fireball spam and approach, they aren't completely shut down by this. It's a helpful way of spacing and damage dealing, but they will get to Mario eventually, and when they do, they will rack up some good damage, and kill you far earlier.

They arent shut down by Mario's airgame so much either. DK is quite formidable their, and Ike can counter to avoid excessive juggling.

DK isnt gimped as easily as Ike, but you have a point with Ike.

I do think Ike vs Mario can be argued for even, but DK feels like he has the upperhand.

I agree, but I think we should further explore the vicissitudes of the match-ups (The vicissitudes of the match-ups might not be quite as clear and apparent as they seem).

 

[Crackle]

As a Yoshi player I agree he has many weaknesses but I disagree with the following:

Donkey Kong - He's Big and his b-air is tough but does he seriously overpower Yoshi's tongue?

Charizard - Another Biggie, in my opinion he is quite easy to edgeguard and fight on the ground. He has some tricks but nothing I normally worry about.

King Dedede - Umm...yoshi's b-air seems to do almost everything to this guy, also similar to Charizard, and egg roll goes through his projectiles.

Samus - When fighting close up, I don't see what Samus has on Yoshi.

Wario - Okay, Yoshi has a grab-game that destroys Wario!

I am fairly new to the game and not particularly amazing, so therefore I am not going to assume that any of these disputes are correct. I just want to know why these are listed as "yoshi counters" when I think that they are fairly neutral if not easy to play against with Yoshi.

 

[ROOOOY!]

Yeah, this chart hasn't taken into account Yoshi's infinite grab on Wario, amirite?

 

[Kiwikomix]

^^ Good call.
Yo, Ivan... Yoshi >> Wario.

 

[talkingbeatles]

Samus - When fighting close up, I don't see what Samus has on Yoshi.

I don't think Samus has anything on anybody close up.

 

[Browny]

Question 2: Lucario's chain grab? Is it good enough to affect any match-up? Got any videos?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vf7cYTeOr8

this is one of the few tourney vids ive found that actually shows the CG, starts at 4:20. also you should probably note lucario could have easily grabbed-dthrow-fair-nair instead of another force palm at 59% to bring the CG combo all the way up to 80%.

nessbounder also made a list with rough %'s the CG can go up to

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=172954

this isnt even including the d/uthrow fair nair combo (practically undodgeable). so add 10-20% to all of those numbers

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Shiek has a pretty noticeable advantage against Ike... almost every move of shiek's outspeeds almost every move of Ike's... plus it's not really too hard for Shiek to edgeguard, combo or outcamp the big lummox

 

[TK Wolf]

Do you think you could list the three PT characters side by side? It would make it a lot easier to read PT that way.

Thanks!!!

 

[Zero_Gamer]

Speaking as someone who's only read the first and last pages.
... <.<
Lucario has an advantage over Snake. His Force Palm chain grab will easily bring him up to 60% and then grab --> 4 to 6 jabs --> Dthrow --> Fair Dair. That combo right there should change the match-up chart.
His Aura Sphere goes through Snake's grenades and mortar-slides, therefore nullifying Snake's approach game. What good is a Snake that can't approach or camp? None, that's what.

 

[MojoMan]

Ike is easily beaten by falcos and pits, because he is terrible against all forms of projectiles.

 

[Kasai]

About Lucario's chain grab, the only matchup that I think it might have an effect on are snake and DDD, mainly because those are the two characters that he can get up to the 70s+...Thinking about it, it seems like he might be even with snake, mainly due to the grab, the range of lucario's stuff and the fact that Lucario's bair goes through snake's upB. Not sure with DDD.

 

[DanGR]

Shiek has a pretty noticeable advantage against Ike... almost every move of shiek's outspeeds almost every move of Ike's... plus it's not really too hard for Shiek to edgeguard, combo or outcamp the big lummox

and I could replace sheik with MK and ike for DK and it'd make sense, but MK doesn't have the advantage over DK. It'd be better if people wouldn't be this vague in their posts...

True but if we are to assume neutral stages those are easily the most played.
Olimar can put the hurt on Snake in FD, but its not as great as in BF.

I was arguing earlier that BF is good for Olimar and that FD is too,(not just BF only) but my opponent said FD wasn't advantageous for Olimar. Not the other way around. Could you explain why BF isn't good for Olimar?

Except we are assuming Snake does use the grenades efficiently.
During which it can be difficult for Olimar.
Send a nikita up into the air. Send some grenades while the nikita drops. Pressure him, omething that is much more difficult on BF since the number of options for Snake is not available.

I'm suggesting snake uses them efficiently also. He just can't outcamp olimar with his grenades whether he's good or not. It doesn't matter. The pikmin are faster and knock the grenades out of the sky. Nikita's are jokes if snake is trying to camp with them. I'm not sure what you're saying here. I can latch three pikmin and do 60+ damage in the time it takes for a slow nikita to fly high into the air and drop onto olimar. Plus Olimar can just dodge it. no big deal. If you're talking about edgeguarding, sure, i guess he could do that, but you have to get him off the stage first, which is very hard to do against olimar.

Except that Snake can delay his grenade throws so that when Olimar goes to destroy them they blow up in his face. Tossing tem from the air is also viable since the speed at which he throws the grenades may be lesser but the explosive range makes up for it.
He isn't as forced toa pproach Olimar as he would in BF.

Olimar isn't going to "go to destroy them." He's just going to throw a pikmin at the grenade midair to get it to stop. Olimar can throw 3-4 pikmin in the time it takes for Snake to pull out a grenade, drop it, pick it up, and throw it. He HAS to approach. Every snake main agrees with me here. They have like 2 threads right now dedicated to ways to approach him. go and check them out. It's funny.

Mostly through efficient use of grenades and nikita. Since the nikita can be canceled anytime.
The main reason BF is more disadvantageous for Snake than FD is because the platforms limit the usage of his spacing aiblity as well as his ability to use the NIkita.
On FD I find that using the nikita , grenades and mines to continuously pressure Olimar is more successful than other tactics I could employ on BF.

We've already agreed that FD<BF for Olimar. I just think that FD isn't a loss for olimar. I don't think grenades and nikita's do anything against olimar on FD as well as BF. Ask the snake mains.

It does limit his options since he has more to contend with on FD than on BF where the platforms and size limitation of the stage could cause Snake difficiulty.

true

Well the grenades and nikita as well as C4 would be methods of allowing Snake to approach. Since Olimarwould constantly have to deal with a barrage of projectiles wouldn't it be more difficult to deal with? Comuple with Snake's DAC I think he would fair better where there are no platforms to get in his way, and the stage is larger where Olimar can't approach relatively quickly and safely.

not really. Olimar has range superiority over snake. It's a joke. You just don't understand. You have to either ask a snake main or have the first hand experience in the matchup to grasp this understanding. I can argue all day that Snake's range<olimar's. It's fact.

He can use the pikmin to break the mines but what would be the point? Snake would already be hcucking grenades and nikita missiles afterwards.

He can throw two pikmin in one SH. Only one has to hit the mine, and the other can hit the grenade if Olimar wants it to. He can SH faster than Snake can throw a grenade.

I am thinking Olimar has an advantage but that Snake has a better chance depending on what stage he is upon. Mainly since many of his projectiles rely on having an open ground.

Ugggh, snake's range is < Olimar's range. You have to understand this before we can debate over the matchup. You can either go ask snake mains whether it's true, or you can keep discussing your opinion here. But in the end, it doesn't matter.

 

[Umpadumpalump]

Shiek has a pretty noticeable advantage against Ike... almost every move of shiek's outspeeds almost every move of Ike's... plus it's not really too hard for Shiek to edgeguard, combo or outcamp the big lummox

How is it not hard for Shiek to edgeguard Ike? Shiek can't edguard Ike better than any other character as far as I've seen. Plus, Aether makes it hard to edguard Ike anyway.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

shiek is a better edguarder than a lot of other charcters... and Ike is more easily edgeguarded than a lot of other charcters... and shieks chain actually lets you edgehog aether... if you are really daring.

and I could replace sheik with MK and ike for DK and it'd make sense, but MK doesn't have the advantage over DK. It'd be better if people wouldn't be this vague in their posts...

yes, but MK DOES matchup well against ike for much the same reason... the difference is DK's Range+ Priority / lag on attacks.

ike simply can't get attacks out quickle enough.

If sheik is applying good pressure, there's no way ike can shake him/her off really easily. once sheik gets in close, which is not difficult becuse, if you decide to run in, ike can't get anything off quickly enough to hit you.

Once shiek has closed the distance, you can either use a grab if ike shieds or a dash attack if he doesn't. either way, once you get him in your hands, you can combo him like crazy. Ftilt can trap combo into itself or a utilt, and once ike finally DIs out of the combo, he's a sitting duck for shiek in the air since all of shiek's aerials are so fast and all of ike's so slow.

plus, it's not like ike has any resonable approaches vs shiek considering Needles destroy quickdraw and ike doesn't have many reliable approaches anyway.

It's not like sheik is a killing machine, but considering how well sheik can apply pressure, especially against someone as slow and heavy as ike, sheik should be able to put some massive damage on ike each time sheik gets in close...

then it's just a matter of knocking Ike off the edge for an edgeguard kill, or switching to Zelda to seal the deal... either way, Shiek wins this matchup.

I'm pretty sure most, if not all other shiek mains agree with me on this one.