Brawl Character Match-Up chart

[NESSBOUNDER]

@ isthebigfoot

after some more testing of my own, I admit to being wrong about the DK gimp. He can indeed grab the ledge by using up B after being released from the grab.

So instead: here's another potential 0>death combo that Lucario can do on DK that has a bit more room for success.

Rather than running grab DK and drop him over the edge when the chain grab reaches the end of the stage, you shorthop Fair>Fair>Footstool>Dair>extremespeed to ledge.

Not a completely clean gimp, but it is a true combo, and racks up a LOT of damage and puts DK in a difficult position to recover (although he keeps his second jump).

 

[Kasai]

@ isthebigfoot

after some more testing of my own, I admit to being wrong about the DK gimp. He can indeed grab the ledge by using up B after being released from the grab.

So instead: here's another potential 0>death combo that Lucario can do on DK that has a bit more room for success.

Rather than running grab DK and drop him over the edge when the chain grab reaches the end of the stage, you shorthop Fair>Fair>Footstool>Dair>extremespeed to ledge.

Not a completely clean gimp, but it is a true combo, and racks up a LOT of damage and puts DK in a difficult position to recover (although he keeps his second jump).

Regardless of whether or not lucario can 0 > death combo DK, he still has enough gimping possibilities and KO potential to not have a disadvantage towards him.

 

[Surri-Sama]

@ isthebigfoot

after some more testing of my own, I admit to being wrong about the DK gimp. He can indeed grab the ledge by using up B after being released from the grab.

So instead: here's another potential 0>death combo that Lucario can do on DK that has a bit more room for success.

Rather than running grab DK and drop him over the edge when the chain grab reaches the end of the stage, you shorthop Fair>Fair>Footstool>Dair>extremespeed to ledge.

Not a completely clean gimp, but it is a true combo, and racks up a LOT of damage and puts DK in a difficult position to recover (although he keeps his second jump).

i love how in brawl situational was mistaken for true combos

 

[DanGR]

Numbers are more accurate.

I agree. Whether or not the chart is accurate enough shouldn't effect whether we switch recording methods or not. I think it's about time we changed to the number method instead. It makes it easier to read IMO, and is more detailed and is neater. This is IvanEva's choice though.

 

[DMG]

It would be pretty easy to just convert matchups into a 1-9 number scale. We can keep the basic Chart Format and just replace the notations (X's, check marks, and neutral symbols) with Numbers from 1-9. 1 being a humongous disadvantage and 9 being an almost guaranteed win. 5 would be an even matchup of course.

 

[tutata]

This here is good work sir.

 

[DanGR]

I don't think brawl has evolved enough to give any character a 1 or a 9 if we go by numbers.

 

[TehBo49]

It would be pretty easy to just convert matchups into a 1-9 number scale. We can keep the basic Chart Format and just replace the notations (X's, check marks, and neutral symbols) with Numbers from 1-9. 1 being a humongous disadvantage and 9 being an almost guaranteed win. 5 would be an even matchup of course.

The thing about that is it would be even harder to get people to agree on a matchup. Once things settle down & we have a general idea of how a match goes, then we can put in numbers.

 

[DMG]

The thing about that is it would be even harder to get people to agree on a matchup. Once things settle down & we have a general idea of how a match goes, then we can put in numbers.

Yeah, I can see an argument developing over a matchup being a measly point in one direction or another lol. Well, I guess the question is, when will people start taking the project somewhat seriously and start contributing? There's a lot of gaps to cover and a lot of discussions/debates that need to take place before we get close to having a general idea for most characters and right now it seems like no one even bothers anymore.

I'm almost starting to wonder if it would be easier/get more people's attention if we made a new blank chart and only posted matchups that were agreed on with a general consensus, with the unsure matchups being filled in with a placeholder. Even then, we probably won't get people to contribute enough to fill in the chart.

 

[Cosmo!]

I don't think brawl has evolved enough to give any character a 1 or a 9 if we go by numbers.

marth(9) vs ness(1)

 

[IvanEva]

Jeebus. I had almost finished replying to a bunch of posts when my apartment had a quick, one-second blackout. AGAIN! GAH!

In summary:
- Ike >> Ganondorf: http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm231/IvanEvaPhoto/IkevsGanondorf.jpg

PM me if you want to battle with your Ganondorf against my Ike (disclaimer: I don't ever use Ike... but I'm pretty sure I won't have to to beat a Ganon) If it's just a normal advantage I'll only find out by playing other Ganon's. So, PM away and with times you're available to play.

- For the Sheik/Marth thing, check out EmblemLord's Marth match-up thread (probably the best written one on Smashboards). I personally believe it to be in Marth's advantage since short hopped forward airs have worked great against Shieks from what I've seen, especially off the edge. But I believe that he knows what he's talking about. I'll review it much later on.

- I too don't see what Squirtle has on Lucario and thus I've change the chart for it to be Lucario > Squirtle.

- I'm not going with numbers. Probably not ever. I don't believe that you can get that accurate in a fighting game, where skill and adaptability plays a large role. Sticking to small/large advantage/disadvantage should be good enough as that's basically what any number chart boils down to.

- Question: how would I get a flash version working? Like, is there a way to embed it into a message board post like an image?

 

[Judge Judy]

You still have Mario at a disadvantage to Sonic -_->

 

[ROOOOY!]

You still have Mario at a disadvantage to Sonic -_->

Chill out. Ivan already had what he was updating in the chart last night/one before, before the Sonic Mario argument was even up, though it wasn't posted because of black outs and that.
Besides, that match up shouldn't be changed until people have reached a decision anyway, because at the moment both sides are kinda distant and nobody's that certain on the potential of the other character to make a judgement.
Anyway Ivan, thanks for the update, I've spotted a few changes and the ones I have I agree with.

 

[DarkStraw]

HELLO!! its me!, its been a while but im back and with more experience! I just finished playing a rather good ness on gamebattles, ranked 77... he was no pushover... i main olimar and GW, i played GW against him first, and i just barely lost. So then i picked olimar and i just barely won the second match, the third match i won by two stocks(4 stock match). I still think olimar has an advtange. When he got knocked off the edge and couldent get back without his up+b, hitting him with a pikmin wasent really that hard, i think i got him 2/3 of the time, the key is to spam all your pikmin off the edge when your throwing 4-5 pikmin hitting him isent exactly rocket science. one timed he naired it off, but he dident have time to up+b afterwords, he fell to his death. I also interrupted his up+b several times during the match when he was on the stage, leaving him open. He seemed rather pissed off afterwords that i picked olimar to play his ness.

As to why i lost as GW, usually i play olimar against the earthbound boys... so i dont have much practice against them with him. I might have won had i tried again with him... but i couldent take that chance.

 

[???????]

Chill out. Ivan already had what he was updating in the chart last night/one before, before the Sonic Mario argument was even up, though it wasn't posted because of black outs and that.
Besides, that match up shouldn't be changed until people have reached a decision anyway, because at the moment both sides are kinda distant and nobody's that certain on the potential of the other character to make a judgement.
Anyway Ivan, thanks for the update, I've spotted a few changes and the ones I have I agree with.

We've already reached a point of agreement that Sonic is to be considered at least neutral; the dispute right now is whether or not Mario is at an advantage to Sonic.

 

[ROOOOY!]

I'm in agreement with that being neutral for now anyway. I made some brief notes a few pages back saying that I thought it was even.

 

[ShadowLink84]

We've already reached a point of agreement that Sonic is to be considered at least neutral; the dispute right now is whether or not Mario is at an advantage to Sonic.

Currently it can go either way. I am leaning more on neutral (both ways) since neither character appears to have strategies that necessarily place the other at a disadvantage.

I've been using Mario and I must say I feel so slow now in comparison to using Sonic >.<

 

[Browny]

Currently it can go either way. I am leaning more on neutral (both ways) since neither character appears to have strategies that necessarily place the other at a disadvantage.

I've been using Mario and I must say I feel so slow now in comparison to using Sonic >.<

playing anyone else but sonic reminds you of how slow brawl is lol

 

[ShadowLink84]

XD
I was using Lucario today and I was like WTF is happening? Is my game broken?

 

[Rhykune]

Snake being positive against Ivysaur?!?!
If anything the opposite is true.
Razor Leaf owns Gernades and he's a fairly heavy target for bullet seed.
Just look at the PT match up chart, there is a better explination there.

 

[Kasai]

Snake being positive against Ivysaur?!?!
If anything the opposite is true.
Razor Leaf owns Gernades and he's a fairly heavy target for bullet seed.
Just look at the PT match up chart, there is a better explination there.

At the same time, Ivysaur is one of the easiest characters to edge hog and his recover is awful. Snake also doesn't really have a problem getting people off the stage and with the very predictable recovery pattern of ivysaur, snake's missiles will be connecting rather easily.

 

[DanGR]

kasai- idk about the matchup, but you can't base your reasoning off Ivysaur's bad recovery. Olimar has a bad one too, but still has some great matchups(~ or >) against some of the best characters in the game including Falco, DDD, GaW, Pikachu, Snake, TL, Diddy, Zelda, etc. In order to knock Ivysaur off far enough for him to not be able to get back to the stage w/o using his recovery takes some time. It's not like you can just ftilt once and he's dead.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Speaking of which, I'm beginning to feel that G&W has a neutral matchup with Olimar...
But that doesnt lessen your point xP

 

[hizzlum]

I am having difficulty seeing why marth vs. sheik is a neutral match-up when no-one is giving evidence of why this neutral?Emblem lord marth match-up thread has the fight 6:4 in marth's favor. Someone please say why sheik has this match neutral

 

[cutter]

Speaking of which, I'm beginning to feel that G&W has a neutral matchup with Olimar...
But that doesnt lessen your point xP

But Esc, we already argued for why G&W vs. Olimar is neutral and not a disadvantage to G&W. But I'm sure you already knew that already.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Snake being positive against Ivysaur?!?!
If anything the opposite is true.
Razor Leaf owns Gernades and he's a fairly heavy target for bullet seed.
Just look at the PT match up chart, there is a better explination there.

Razor leaf doesn';t do much for the grenades.
He has other methods of using them other than for throwing.
Not only that you have his C4 and mines.
As well as his mortar.
up close his has his F tilt and U tilt.
Its easy for him to edge guard Ivysaur.

 

[DanGR]

Speaking of which, I'm beginning to feel that G&W has a neutral matchup with Olimar...
But that doesnt lessen your point xP

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the matchup is listed as "~"

 

[Mr. Escalator]

It was listed last time I checked as a disadvantage for G&W, so this is news to me.
I guess I won then!!

 

[IvanEva]

I am having difficulty seeing why marth vs. sheik is a neutral match-up when no-one is giving evidence of why this neutral?Emblem lord marth match-up thread has the fight 6:4 in marth's favor. Someone please say why sheik has this match neutral

'K, I swear it had it listed as 5:5 this morning... I might have been mistaken but either way I'm relieved since I too find Marth having the sword. Err, the advantage.

For the Ivy vs. Snake thing: Ivy has some good things against him but man, Snake hits so hard that Ivy seems to just die way too fast. Snake has no problem covering distance against Ivy and all of his moves are just too fast and strong to give it to Ivy. Razor Leaf isn't that good against grenades. No better than any other projectile that Snake just blocks/powershields and then dash attacks or something.

 

[BurningCrusader777]

lol.

Ganondorf vs. Ivsaur is neutral...
But Ivysaur vs. Ganondorf is disadvantage?

Typo?

 

[IDK]

this is pretty much what the tier list should be based on IMO.

 

[Judge Judy]

Except that half of these match-ups are incredibly outdated.

 

[DanGR]

What do y'all think about Olimar v Snake? Is it still neutral? Snake seems to have problems with the pikmin, thus forcing him to approach. His only good approach is his DAC upsmash, and with Olimar's grab range, it's quite punishable by shielding and following up. The pikmin stop the grenades and mines for the most part, and Olimar can shieldgrab any attack except fsmash too(which isn't used very often anyways) Olimar's combo's all work unusually well on the heavier, bigger characters and they send them into the air where Snake has problems. I'd like to discuss this matchup w/out referring Snake as a god, b/c he just isn't, so please.

Edit: I'm sorry this is so long, but I feel it needs to be shared with the community. I compiled some comments in the snake "matchup thread"(really isn't but w/e) b/c...I mean, I agree with it, and there's no point in me typing it all out again:

Snake's not god though, which is funny because technically he's a punch in the face against Creationist theorists (you know, cloning and all). Snake's air game is fairly weak compared to others, 3/5 of his moves are meant to KO and can be effortlessly punished if used incorrectly. The other two are godsends, but can be predictable if an opponent knows what they are looking for. Ground game is where Snake is superior, but he has a problem with people with projectile spam, namely Toon Link, Wolf and Olimar. Olimar is by far his worst opponent because not only a good Olimar destroy Snake effortlessly in the air but those nasty little Pikmin can be used as shields against the Nikita or a tossed grenade. Toon Link can hold off Snake with a hoarde of Bombs, Arrows and that annoying Boomerang and has massive KO potential with the Fsmash combo and his psuedo "Ken combo" (Back Throw, Bair, Bair off ledge, Dair spike). There are other discussed weaknesses that I'd like to see myself (Zelda and ROB comes to mind) but anyone I wanna play against over WiFi seems to have poor internet or is on another land mass.

This discusses spammers and why Snake has problems with them^(basically)

Nominate Olimar for a Snake counter.

Jeff mentioned him, and Oli, next to ROB, has been my toughest matchup thus far.

Snake's weight works against him here, since Olimar has quite the juggling ability on the heavy characters. Right off the bat, at 0%, he can do an inescapable up throw to running upsmash (chasing your DI). Quick 25-30% damage depending on the pikmin. He can do this at least once more, IIRC, until you're able to DI far enough/air dodge out of it. At mid percents he can dthrow to fair, though this can be air dodged, but it still allows him to pop snake up where he's most vulnerable. Oli's uair, nair, and utilt can also juggle well, and both have an an extended hit box. At low percents he can combo from an utilt or falling uair/nair with a few jabs and easily re-grab or smash. Oli is surprisingly speedy as well, allowing him to follow up with the aerial punishment.

Olimar's grab range is excellent, especially with the blue pikmin. Speaking of which, bthrow with the blue pikmin is tremendously strong even against heavyweights like Snake. I've gotten kills (and been killed) w/ fresh blue pikmin bthrow from mid stage, and otherwise it easily sets up for an edgeguard.

Speaking of Pikmin, the little devils provide, for the most part, a meat shield against Snake's grenades/nikita if he keeps them thrown. They set off mines easily too. If you don't approach, the latched pikmin obviously will rack up damage. You can swipe them off with attacks, and they can die from the explosives (except Reds), but it takes only a moment to replenish the minions, and smart Oli's won't waste all their pikmin in one go.

Finally, there's Olimars smashes and aerials. All disjointed hitboxes, all come out rather quickly.. (the yellow pikmin have an extended hitbox, works well for fair and bair, but that's beside the point). Because of this, he's reasonably hard to punish even with a power shield since he'll often be out of range. The fsmash can cycle quickly, deterring an attempt to attack in between the intervals. Dsmash hits both sides instantaneously, and is a quick gtfo move. His uair's multiple hits catch you out of an airdodge coming from above. His dair can meteor spike if you come from below/low horizontal angle. His fair and bair are good for spacing game, especially considering the fact that Oli can SH, throw a pikmin and do a fair both before landing. Not to mention all his smashes pack a punch.

This combination of grab combos, juggling, strong aerials and smashes, a more then decent camping game, and deterrent from projectiles, make him a great contender against Snake. Oli just needs to use his attributes to rack up damage and finish with a well spaced/punishing smash or bthrow.

Of course we can't ignore the downsides: certainly there is Olimar's gimpable recovery and his light weight, and the fact that an Olimar without pikmin is like a fat kid in dodgeball. I'm not sure if that's enough to outweigh his pros though.

Discuss counter strategies?

Pikachu can really hurt Snake when he's rcovering. Thunder can cover the key "drop-zone" for a SNake recovering above the stage. A decent Snake can air dogde the Thunder but then becomes vulnerable to any ariel attack Pikachu may make on Snake. The only other option Snake has would be to grab the ledge which has its own weaknesses as well.

Being a smaller, faster character also makes a problem for Snake since Pikachu can outmanuever Snake and duck grenades. Pikachu can also attempt to outcamp Snake with his neutral B projectile, though Snake can counter this similarily to how he would other campers. Pikachu to me seems to be one o the harder matchups for Snake.

I also agree with Jeff that Olimar might be the worst for Snake.

Overall impression of Snake is that he is incredibly fun to play as. He also can act as an anti-camper character since he can cut of areas of the stage with mines and C4, as well as soak up projectiles with Nikita, spam grenades, strip any caught grenades from his opponents, and has a very safe approach with his Mortar Slide. He is a great character but has trouble with many of the other higher up characters such as G&W, Wolf, Olimar, R.O.B., Toon Link, and Pikachu.

He's saying pikachu isn't a counter, but that Olimar is? Pikachu is even, so by HIS logic, Olimar is a counter. But that's for you to decide, so just saying...

So far, for me, I've gotten half-decent results doing hit and run tactics and finishing with a tilt kill. Problem is, this strat is pretty forseeable and the Oli I play expects an attempt at a kill move when he's at a high percent so he plays very defensively. I thought I had Oli's matchup in the bag until I played this Olimar just today. Demolished.

demolished...

From my experience, Olimar and Pikachu are the worst matchups for Snake. Olimar's a pain for all the reasons mentioned thus far--nothing new really to add there except that Snake seems to do all right at killing the Pikmin themselves, and Olimar can struggle against his tilts and explosives. But if you've got a campy Olimar, Snake's going to have some trouble. Pikachu's just nasty, in part because his Thunder creates a wall that's difficult to penetrate when you have to cypher recover, and he can edgeguard well if you go straight for the edge. Not to mention that he's small, hard to hit, and capable of super quick movements that can mess with Snake's spacing.

I don't have much to add other than this thread has been extremely helpful. My friend mains Snake and I would agree that Snake is, without a doubt, in the upper echelon of the Brawl roster. My Olimar is the only thing that can contend.

I'm not saying that all of these snake mains represent everyone's opinion, but it's basically a petition in my mind.

 

[Jekyll]

In summary:
- Ike >> Ganondorf: http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm231/IvanEvaPhoto/IkevsGanondorf.jpg

PM me if you want to battle with your Ganondorf against my Ike (disclaimer: I don't ever use Ike... but I'm pretty sure I won't have to to beat a Ganon) If it's just a normal advantage I'll only find out by playing other Ganon's. So, PM away and with times you're available to play.

Nice photo, but with all due respect I don't think that a Wi-Fi match can or should decide the nature of the matchup.

But judging from how you think you can beat any Ganon with a character you don't even play, I'm pretty sure you mistakingly think that Ganon is complete trash. I'm not going to say that he's an amazing character, but I think that Ganon having so many bad matchups on your chart is due to underrepresentation, not because Ganon sucks.

 

[Tenki]

Nice photo, but with all due respect I don't think that a Wi-Fi match can or should decide the nature of the matchup.

Why not?

There's a chance that there'll be little lag.

And even if their IS high ping between them, things like approach vs defense shouldn't change.

ex: If Ganondorf can F-tilt an Ike out of his Aether recovery, then what does it matter if there's some lag? Besides accuracy (mistiming it), if it works, it works. If something gets ourprioritized, then it gets outprioritized.

If you're playing online with .5-1 second worth of ping lag, then it's move vs move, playstyle vs playstyle. Playing offline increases the chance of reflexive moves working (true combos, pshield, punishing attack lag), and for matchups that involve projectiles, punishment, and juggles, that should be taken into account.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

i don't play as ganon but i agree with jekyll he is under represented and can't be at a disadvantage to everyone. yes he is slow at theat hurts him alot but speed is not everything (or sonic would be top tier) he has strength and i don't know his priority but my guess is that its not horrible so there must be someone he has an advantage against.

Also from what i read most people seem to think cf is the worst in the game and he has advantages so that would mean ether ganon would have some advantages to or a lot of neutrals (note: i am just saying i have read on these boards that cf is the worst i don't play him so this is not my thought)

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I'm going to keep saying it until it gets changed:
Sonic = Olimar

Shiek > Space animals

 

[ROOOOY!]

I'm going to keep saying it until it gets changed:
Sonic = Olimar

Shiek > Space animals

It's funny cos although 90% at least of the boards know that's the case, with the Sonic one the OP refuses to change it because he doesn't believe it, as he said a few pages ago. There was me thinking this was a communal thing....LOL
At least he's sticking at it I guess, it looks right in a few parts.

 

[Kiwikomix]

@ NAGACE: Uh, CF shouldn't be at an advantage to Squirtle. So he has ONE advantage. And that's against Ganon. Your point = What?

@ Hedgedawg: Good idea.
Kirby = Falco
Kirby > Ike
Kirby = Ness
Kirby < ROB
Kirby > Wolf

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Sonic vs Olimar= neutral (this has been largely agreed by both Sonic and Olimar boards. Sonic can approach Olimar more easily than the rest of the cast who may have issues with Olimar's defensive gameplay. Since Sonic is also very adept at gimping and edge guarding., Olimar will have an issue getting back tothe stage. Even if he does have his second jump Sonic is arguably among the quickest to reach him in that point. Sonic also has various setups that would definitely kill Olimar once he's off the stage. ONe of which is D throw to Fair. He also gets rid of pikmin very easily since all of his attacks surround his body and send the pikmin flying.
He does have ot be wary of grabs and smashes since Sonic is a lightweight as well and he has a lesser ground game to Olimar.

Ike vs Sheik=disadvantage for Ike. (I really don't see Ike doing well agaisnt her due to her needles and very quick attacks Once she gets in close it will be very difficult for Ike to get rid of her with other moves other than his jab.

^See... exactly^

Link vs Toon Link=disadvantage for Link
He;s a faster, better version of Link with a better recovery. His projectiles aren't better but his speed and ability to approach with those projectiles make up for it.

I as well as most of the link boards think the matchup is neutral and depends COMPLETELY on momentum.

So in Recap:
Sonic = Olimar
Shiek > Ike
Shiek > Space animals
Link = Toon Link (you agree here anyway)