Brawl Character Match-Up chart

[DanGR]

I don't recall anyone in the Olimar boards agreeing with you. Sonic doesn't have a neutral matchup.

spacies-we've already addressed them. It's not in sheik's favor. With wolf, you just have to shield>grab the ftilts, and fox and falco can DI up and out of it before the kill. Unless there's another huge advantage that actually works against them, it shouldn't change.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I don't recall anyone in the Olimar boards agreeing with you. Sonic doesn't have a neutral matchup.

spacies-we've already addressed them. It's not in sheik's favor. With wolf, you just have to shield>grab the ftilts, and fox and falco can DI up and out of it before the kill. Unless there's another huge advantage that actually works against them, it shouldn't change.

the point is, it's free damage, and it can't always be escaped easily.

And as for Olimar Vs. Sonic, I'm sorry that 90% of the forums disagree with you. you are just lucky that IvanEva agrees with you and he the one that manipulates the chart.

Sonic = Olimar
Shiek > Ike
Shiek = or > any spacie

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

I don't recall anyone in the Olimar boards agreeing with you. Sonic doesn't have a neutral matchup.

I agree with him that it's pretty neutral. I've played that matchup probably more than all the rest of the Olimar boards combined.

You can't spam pikmin against Sonic as often as you would against any other character. Pretty much any move that turns Sonic into a little ball will remove the pikmin from his body and kill it. Not only that, but Sonic also out prioritizes Olimar's smashes, and is way faster. Olimar's tilts out prioritize a lot of Sonic's moves (the same ones that kill Pikmin). The match moves kind of slow if both know what they're doing, because a large portion of the match is spent by both characters trying to trick the other into doing something dumb so that something they have can hit. This includes pretty much any kill move that Olimar has, and pretty much anything Sonic has that'll knock Olimar off the stage to be gimped. Definitely not a free win matchup for either character, and requires a different style of play for the Olimar player than any generic opponent.

 

[Kiwikomix]

Man... making a new chart looks better and better every day.

 

[DanGR]

I guess after that^, I can't really argue that the Olimar boards agree, but I still think it's an advantage for Olimar, but I digress.

Would you say that it's hard at first to get used to the unusual style of play that you have to use against Sonic, RA? If that's the case, then you'd have to try different things, but it seems that his aerial superiority, and tilts(like you mentioned as well) are much more important than usual. They do play a big roll, and I think IvanEva understands this as well. Sonic's ability to approach isn't as easy as STH and SL are making it out to be. If Sonic takes advantage of mistakes to approach, then Olimar can just only throw the pikmen standing still and don't jump and throw. Also, if he can just run away and kill the pikmin if you DO decide to throw, just be sure that you control the middle of the stage, so he doesn't have a large area to run to. Olimar doesn't have to use his pikmin(whether throwing or smashing) as much as he wants to, he just likes to. If IvanEva changes the chart, I'm going to be pushing the issue, b/c I strongly feel it's an advantage for Olimar.

@STH-would agree that Sheik>Olimar?

Edit: And please, don't resize your text. It's annoying.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Man... making a new chart looks better and better every day.

seriosuly, when the two boards involved in a certain matchup come together and say its one way and then the OP says "yeah... I don't think so because ONE PERSON disagrees with you and so do I" then the chart has.... what do we want to say Zero credibility?

Sonic = Olimar
Shiek > Ike
Shiek = or > any spacie

edit: the text will shrik as soon as Ivan Eva adresses the problem


now, responding to DanGR about his last post

this is essentially the problem with your logic as to why sonic < Olimar. It's quite clear thatif sonic gets some offensive momentum, he can destroy olimar, and that if olimar gets some defensive momentum, sonic has an uphill battle... the problem is, your argument centers almost entirely around ignoring that sonic can approach and assuming that Olimar will allways have the momentum in the matchup. If you ever see a matchup in which the sonic is in the zone, you'd think that sonic >> Olimar. Trust me on this.

As for Olimar vs. Zelda Shiek.

I personally play zelda in this matchup because, regardless of what the chart says, Zelda = Olimar. I can definitely see how shiek could have the advantage though, Shiek's needles will outcamp pikmin any time. Shiek can easily aproach and even more easily edgeguard olimar. Shiek is even capable of tethering itself making it even harder on oilmar. Shiek suffers a big lack of power, range and priority compared to olimar and is suffers more in the fact that most of shiek's attacks sed olimar UPWARDS making it hard to get him off the edge to edgeguard.

I don't find either matchup bad against olimar, so I play as Zelda because, with her, I am more comfortable.

 

[DanGR]

As far as I'm concerned, if my points are correct, and y'alls aren't, my argument wins and that's how he decides what matchups go which way, not how many people say one thing over and over again. But that's for him to decide. If he thinks I'm wrong and you're right, then so be it. I'll pressure him to change it back. So quit whining and make your own chart instead of complaining that he disagrees with you. This is a discussion thread, not a complaint thread, so argue your points and so will I.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

I guess after that^, I can't really argue that the Olimar boards agree, but I still think it's an advantage for Olimar, but I digress.

Would you say that it's hard at first to get used to the unusual style of play that you have to use against Sonic, RA? If that's the case, then you'd have to try different things, but it seems that his aerial superiority, and tilts(like you mentioned as well) are much more important than usual. They do play a big roll, and I think IvanEva understands this as well. Sonic's ability to approach isn't as easy as STH and SL are making it out to be. If Sonic takes advantage of mistakes to approach, then Olimar can just only throw the pikmen standing still and don't jump and throw. Also, if he can just run away and kill the pikmin if you DO decide to throw, just be sure that you control the middle of the stage, so he doesn't have a large area to run to. Olimar doesn't have to use his pikmin(whether throwing or smashing) as much as he wants to, he just likes to. If IvanEva changes the chart, I'm going to be pushing the issue, b/c I strongly feel it's an advantage for Olimar.

@STH-would agree that Sheik>Olimar?

Edit: And please, don't resize your text. It's annoying.

Aerials are another interesting thing... Sonic is harder than almost every other character to spike, and he has moves that also come out a lot faster than any Olimar aerial. Neutral air is another good move to use against Sonic because it's reasonably fast and can beat out a lot of Sonic moves.

Both characters have to take advantage of mistakes to even get damage on the other one, as I've mentioned before. Do you play the matchup often? Because I do.

 

[Jekyll]

Why not?

There's a chance that there'll be little lag.

And even if their IS high ping between them, things like approach vs defense shouldn't change.

ex: If Ganondorf can F-tilt an Ike out of his Aether recovery, then what does it matter if there's some lag? Besides accuracy (mistiming it), if it works, it works. If something gets ourprioritized, then it gets outprioritized.

If you're playing online with .5-1 second worth of ping lag, then it's move vs move, playstyle vs playstyle. Playing offline increases the chance of reflexive moves working (true combos, pshield, punishing attack lag), and for matchups that involve projectiles, punishment, and juggles, that should be taken into account.

What?

Firstly, there is MORE than just a chance that there will be MORE than just "some lag." Secondly, playing over Wi-Fi is COMPLETELY different from playing in person. I believe that Overswarm(or someone else who knows what they're talking about when it comes to Wi-Fi) posted a write-up a while back on how different the two can be.

This discussion doesn't really belong here, but none of the points you made for why a Wi-Fi match is a good idea are actually convincing in the slightest. When playing against a character that outranges you(like Ganon vs Ike) you CAN NOT risk mis-timing things. Otherwise, you're just running into another attack or getting hit by the current attack for trying to compensate. Also, I didn't know that Ganon could F-Tilt THROUGH Ike's recovery, but he CAN F-Tilt after connecting with an Over-B which is one of Ganon's best moves for closing distance(as long as it connects ). This is a TRUE combo, but one with a window that's small enough to be thrown completely off by lag.

I'd totally be willing to play a few Ikes in person, even though there are at least a couple of other Ganons who far outweigh me in tourney experience that would be better choices. But since I consider most of my game to rely on spacing, timing and punishment(you know, the things that MAKE the game) I won't be participating in any Wi-Fi matches that carry any sort of weight.

 

[DanGR]

edit: the text will shrik as soon as Ivan Eva adresses the problem

it's rude

now, responding to DanGR about his last post

this is essentially the problem with your logic as to why sonic < Olimar. It's quite clear thatif sonic gets some offensive momentum, he can destroy olimar, and that if olimar gets some defensive momentum, sonic has an uphill battle... the problem is, your argument centers almost entirely around ignoring that sonic can approach and assuming that Olimar will allways have the momentum in the matchup. If you ever see a matchup in which the sonic is in the zone, you'd think that sonic >> Olimar. Trust me on this.

Instead of saying that sonic has approaches and that he can steal the momentum from Olimar, could you name some approaches that sonic has that don't take advantage of mistakes? I do understand that this is a big part of his game, but this can't only be what he does. If I shield while he's in the air, what can he do to lower my shield? If I roll back or run>grab when he starts to run in w/o jumping, what can sonic do to take the offensive momentum?

As for Olimar vs. Zelda Shiek.

I personally play zelda in this matchup because, regardless of what the chart says, Zelda = Olimar. I can definitely see how shiek could have the advantage though, Shiek's needles will outcamp pikmin any time. Shiek can easily aproach and even more easily edgeguard olimar. Shiek is even capable of tethering itself making it even harder on oilmar. Shiek suffers a big lack of power, range and priority compared to olimar and is suffers more in the fact that most of shiek's attacks sed olimar UPWARDS making it hard to get him off the edge to edgeguard.

I don't find either matchup bad against olimar, so I play as Zelda because, with her, I am more comfortable.

I still think Zelda has the disadvantage btw,

Sheik's needles don't "outcamp" Olimar, but they give him trouble. Sheik has many approach options that work and that's a big reason why I think Sheik>Olimar. Sheik shouldn't edgeguard too far very much. If Olimar gets past her, then he'll edgehog for an easy kill. Anyways, Sheik's tether doesn't make it hard for Olimar, I don't know what you're talking about, but I'll leave that alone. The biggest thing I'm pointing at is that sheik in fact has awesome priority in this matchup. Plus, (like you said) sheik's attacks do send him airborne, and Sheik doesn't have any problem in the air v Olimar.

Edit:

Aerials are another interesting thing... Sonic is harder than almost every other character to spike, and he has moves that also come out a lot faster than any Olimar aerial. Neutral air is another good move to use against Sonic because it's reasonably fast and can beat out a lot of Sonic moves.

Both characters have to take advantage of mistakes to even get damage on the other one, as I've mentioned before. Do you play the matchup often? Because I do.

Olimar doesn't need to edgeguard. In fact he's very bad at it, and it can get him killed very easily if his opponent can dodge it. Fair and bair(I believe, correct me if I'm wrong) come out just as fast as sonic's bair, but not as fast as Sonic's fair, but they're disjointed. His fair, though has bad priority over the fair and bair from Olimar. Olimar's dair doesn't have priority over Sonic's upair, while it's the same way vice versa. I'm glad you brought up nair. It's underused by most Olimar players. It's key in messing up sonic's "momentum" if he can gain it. Ex. Sonic hits Olimar with a spindash. Olimar is sent just front of Sonic in the air. Sonic has two options: pursue Olimar with fair(will will get hit by nair) or drop down and upair.(Olimar can drop down with him and nair before the upair b/c it's quicker)

I use both Sonic and Olimar,(mostly Olimar) and I have in depth knowledge on each character's respective playstyle, each char's priority towards one another, as well as their physics and tactics versus other characters and one another, but no. I don't have a lot of experience against one another, but I've analyzed each character enough ( including countless videos) to be able to argue my points effectively and efficiently. If I've made a mistake in something as costly as a priority error regarding two moves towards one another from each character, I'd like y'all to point it out if you don't mind, so I can get my facts straight. If my hypothetical situations go too far and are filled with too many errors, I'll take back the arguements.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

Instead of saying that sonic has approaches and that he can steal the momentum from Olimar, could you name some approaches that sonic has that don't take advantage of mistakes? I do understand that this is a big part of his game, but this can't only be what he does. If I shield while he's in the air, what can he do to lower my shield? If I roll back and or run>grab when he starts to run in w/o jumping, what can sonic do to take the offensive momentum?
I'm glad you brought up nair. It's underused by most Olimar players. It's key in messing up sonic's "momentum" if he can gain it. Ex. Sonic hits Olimar with a spindash. Olimar is sent just front of Sonic in the air. Sonic has two options: pursue Olimar with fair(will will get hit by nair) or drop down and upair.(Olimar can drop down with him and nair before the upair b/c it


Olimar doesn't need to edgeguard. In fact he's very bad at it, and it can get him killed very easily if his opponent can dodge it. Fair and bair(I believe, correct me if I'm wrong) come out just as fast as sonic's bair, but not as fast as Sonic's fair, but they're disjointed. His fair, though has bad priority over the fair and bair from Olimar. Olimar's dair doesn't have priority over Sonic's upair, while it's the same way vice versa. 's quicker)

I use both Sonic and Olimar,(mostly Olimar) and I have in depth knowledge on each character's respective playstyle, each char's priority towards one another, physics, and tactics versus each other, but no. I don't have a lot of experience against one another, but I've analyzed each character enough ( including countless videos) to be able to argue my points effectively and efficiently. If I've made a mistake in something as costly as a priority error regarding two moves towards one another from each character, I'd like y'all to point it out if you don't mind, so I can get my facts straight. If my hypothetical situations go too far and are filled with too many errors, I'll take back the arguements.

What could Olimar do against Sonic to approach which isn't slow enough to be turned into a mistake, or easily steam rolled? This is why this matchup is relatively slow. Neither character could approach safely. All damage and kill moves must be baited by both characters. It's not like Marth who can do pretty much any move he has and unless his aim and/or timing sucks it'll probably beat out what the other guy has. It's also not like playing against Ganondorf, who you can just run away from and spam. Sonic can't be spammed against, and both characters' priority sucks against the other. My argument comes from playing against numerous different Sonics.

 

[DanGR]

that makes sense^ I guess it does all come down to who can bait the other. I see Olimar as the victor, but that's my opinion. If IvanEva sees it your way, then I guess that's it, cuz I can't really argue with that^

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

@ NAGACE: Uh, CF shouldn't be at an advantage to Squirtle. So he has ONE advantage. And that's against Ganon. Your point = What?

@ Hedgedawg: Good idea.
Kirby = Falco
Kirby > Ike
Kirby = Ness
Kirby < ROB
Kirby > Wolf

the point was that most people say cf is the worst which if true would lead me to beileve that ganon should have the same amount or more advantages then cf to show he is a better character or at least have a bunch more neutral fights to show he is better. of course ganon is also one of the worst but to have no advantages seems ridicules. it was not an attack on cf or anything i was just saying ganon can't be at a loss to everyone there has to be someone he can beat even if its only a 6:4 or even a 5.5:4.5 there has to be someone he has an advantage aganist.

edit also not related to what i wrote above i hear jekyll is a very good ganon from a friend (bloodhawk) so i believe he knows what he is taking about

 

[ShadowLink84]

Actually Sonic's fair appears to go through Olimar's Fair. It's happened to me twice against a level 9.
We attacked at the same time and my Fair went through the pikmin he held.
Not sure why though it was kind of odd.

 

[DanGR]

It's faster, so you may have gotten your hitbox out before Olimar's fair did.

 

[ShadowLink84]

No I am quite sure, I saw that little clash bubble

 

[missingnomaster]

Since I'm the one who made Falco have a big advantage over Yoshi, I want to make sure no one disagrees since there was barely any discussion about it. (two posts maybe?)

 

[Tenki]

Instead of saying that sonic has approaches and that he can steal the momentum from Olimar, could you name some approaches that sonic has that don't take advantage of mistakes? I do understand that this is a big part of his game, but this can't only be what he does. If I shield while he's in the air, what can he do to lower my shield? If I roll back or run>grab when he starts to run in w/o jumping, what can sonic do to take the offensive momentum?

VS Shield:
SH B-air, N-air+land behind.
Aerial Spin Charge (multiple hits on shield, easily his best shield-eating attack), and depending on placement can land behind. Can be shield cancelled on landing for a grab or jumped for an escape.

ASC is my preferred approach, but if you roll back, you'll probably get caught in either a roll attack or grab. At worst case, you'll miss and everything starts over.

If I get grabbed, I usually just spring away and reset.

Ex. Sonic hits Olimar with a spindash. Olimar is sent just front of Sonic in the air. Sonic has two options: pursue Olimar with fair(will will get hit by nair) or drop down and upair.(Olimar can drop down with him and nair before the upair b/c it's quicker)

I use both Sonic and Olimar,(mostly Olimar) and I have in depth knowledge on each character's respective playstyle, each char's priority towards one another, as well as their physics and tactics versus other characters and one another, but no. I don't have a lot of experience against one another, but I've analyzed each character enough ( including countless videos) to be able to argue my points effectively and efficiently. If I've made a mistake in something as costly as a priority error regarding two moves towards one another from each character, I'd like y'all to point it out if you don't mind, so I can get my facts straight. If my hypothetical situations go too far and are filled with too many errors, I'll take back the arguements.

Spindash>aerial is a true combo. So Sonic has 4 options, depending on enemy %:
F-air immediately, N-air, U-air (no need to drop down, the first hit brings them into the 2nd hit) or B-air (true combo even at 105-115, so it's a finisher combo)

Sonic videos tend to be old and outdated and don't reflect the current metagame @.@;

 

[DMG]

Man... making a new chart looks better and better every day.

I have to agree with Kiwi on this one, making a new chart seems like a good choice now. Don't get me wrong, I really do appreciate Ivan's effort into making this, but starting fresh seems like the best idea.

Toon Link has a disadvantage against Ivysaur? What??? lol.

Someone with experience tell me why he is worse than Ivy there?

 

[JrdnS]

Ivan spent a lot of time on this. and most of it is very accurate. i think he just needs to fix some things. but a new chart by a different person could be useful.

 

[jalued]

i would say ZSS vs wolf is a massive disadvantage. ZSS has limited advance as it is, but wolf can combat everything thrown at him

 

[Noraa]

i find this pretty darn accurate.

 

[TehBo49]

@ Ivan Eva:

I also disagree with some of the Pikachu matchups. Here's what needs to be changed:

Pika < Lucas
Pika only has a small disadvantage here. Yes, thunder heals Lucas by 30% but a good Pikachu won't go around spamming it in this match. PK fire can be power shielded & punished. Lucas's recovery is also easy to guard against once he's off the stage.

Pika = Wolf
Wolf's reflector makes it hard to grab him & his priority is tough to deal with, but once you get inside of him the match is almost as easy as Fox. Wolf's fall speed makes him easy to juggle around & he's very easy to edgeguard.

Pika = Zelda
Her smashes are strong & difficult to pass, but QAC can punish her reflector & goes around Din's. Fsmash also outranges her smashes.

Pika =/> Olimar
Yellow pikmin aren't as bad as they seem. Usmash, nair, & bair are all good at killing yellows (and any color for that matter). Olimar also has no way of dealing with thunderjolt. QAC is a good approach & it's difficult to shieldgrab Pika when he uses d-smash. Overall, I'd say Pika has a slight advantage.

Pika > Falco
Similar to Wolf, once you get next to him it's easy. Pika can hop over lasers or crawl under them. Falco's reflector & chaingrab keep this from being as bad as vs Fox.

Pika > Mario
Mario's cape isn't an issue because thunderjolt can be shorthopped & used to approach. Pika has more priority too. FLUDD has almost no effect on Pika's recovery & Pika can gimp Mario pretty easily.

Pika > Charizard
Yes Charizard can use his tilts to block thunderjolt. But doing so fatigues him, so he has to approach giving Pika an upperhand. Once up close, heavy characters are easy for Pika to juggle around. Gliding can be stopped by thunder.

Pika > Snake
Thunderjolt destroys all of Snake's projectiles & gives Snake himself trouble. Snake is also chaingrabbable & as a heavy character easy to juggle. Thunder destroys Snake's recovery & Snake dies from usmash at about 133%.

 

[Kiwikomix]

I have to agree with Kiwi on this one, making a new chart seems like a good choice now. Don't get me wrong, I really do appreciate Ivan's effort into making this, but starting fresh seems like the best idea.

Toon Link has a disadvantage against Ivysaur? What??? lol.

Someone with experience tell me why he is worse than Ivy there?

Can I be someone with experience? :D
This matchup = Wrong. Let's see...
Ivy has range, yes, but so does Toonie. Ivy's projectiles aren't as spammable. Toon Link is faster and better at racking up damage than Ivy, and he can probably KO a bit more easily.
Plus, you know how Ivy can just razor leaf the person on the edge and then grab it from them? Well, Toonie has a tether and can therefore edgeguard her much more easily. Ivy < Tink, maybe even << but that might be pushing it.

 

[TehBo49]

Another thing: Pika >> Captain Falcon
Pikachu is everything Captain Falcon hates in a match. He juggles & chaingrabs him easily, spams the hell out of him, & edgeguards him in his sleep.

 

[DanGR]

Sonic videos tend to be old and outdated and don't reflect the current metagame @.@;

uggghhh, can you provide ANY newer ones of good players? It's hard to discuss this when I haven't seen any great Sonic players, but I have seen some fantastic Olimars. Maybe that's why he tends to be underrated as a character.(I don't think so, but it's common)

@TehBo49-I have to disagree with Pikachu=Zelda. In fact, make it Pika<<Zelda. It's too hard to approach a smart Zelda player. They'll just DA your approach if you do an empty SH into an fsmash. Every other approach option Pikachu has gets fsmashed or upsmashed, so you won't use those methods anymore, making you predictable. Zelda's grab has better range, and she has aerial superiority with her fair and dair.

 

[DMG]

Can I be someone with experience? :D
This matchup = Wrong. Let's see...
Ivy has range, yes, but so does Toonie. Ivy's projectiles aren't as spammable. Toon Link is faster and better at racking up damage than Ivy, and he can probably KO a bit more easily.
Plus, you know how Ivy can just razor leaf the person on the edge and then grab it from them? Well, Toonie has a tether and can therefore edgeguard her much more easily. Ivy < Tink, maybe even << but that might be pushing it.

Yes, I consider you someone with experience. I knew most of this about TL vs Ivysaur but I didn't know if a discussion about Ivysaur being better had took place 50+ pages ago and I missed it. I was just making sure that I didn't miss something like that.

I don't think Pika is << than Zelda. I know she is hard to approach but Pika doesn't seem like the character that gets shut down completely/really bad by Zelda. I may be wrong though.

 

[DanGR]

I just played like...10 matches just now before I posted. It's really much worse than <<. It's like<<<<

 

[Kiwikomix]

Well let's see...
Pikachu's main approaching option is to hassle the opponent with thunder jolts. Zelda's reflector makes this impractical. His next option is to approach with a short-hopped aerial like fair or nair. Zelda outranges and outprioritizes both of these. If all else fails, Pikachu will wait for Zelda to come to him. She won't since she can just spam Din's fire. Pikachu's main line of attack will be to rolling dodge or shorthop-airdodge the Din's Fires until he gets close enough to d-smash, and this is the only thing that has the potential to stop Zelda. So, yeah, I'd say he gets shut down pretty hard.

 

[DMG]

Well let's see...
Pikachu's main approaching option is to hassle the opponent with thunder jolts. Zelda's reflector makes this impractical. His next option is to approach with a short-hopped aerial like fair or nair. Zelda outranges and outprioritizes both of these. If all else fails, Pikachu will wait for Zelda to come to him. She won't since she can just spam Din's fire. Pikachu's main line of attack will be to rolling dodge or shorthop-airdodge the Din's Fires until he gets close enough to d-smash, and this is the only thing that has the potential to stop Zelda. So, yeah, I'd say he gets shut down pretty hard.

Well Pika could bait Zelda with a thunder jolt and punish the lag on her reflector. He could also use a thunder jolt right around the time Zelda starts Din's Fire and pressure her into ending it sooner than she needs too. I'm not saying that fixes much but it is something to consider. I will take your word for it though, I do not have very much experience against a good Zelda and I cannot accurately pinpoint a method for combating her with my lack of knowledge.

 

[TehBo49]

@ DanGR: You yourself said Zelda suffers from spam due to a laggy reflector. If I approach with thunderjolt, she reflects it & I QAC to her & punish with f-smash. Din's can also be QAC'd around. Even if it does get predictable, she can only chose not to reflect which is a bad idea. Everyone has better grab range than Pikachu, so that means nothing especially when Zelda's grab game is worse than Pika's. Reflectors don't shut Pikachu down as much as you think. Zelda's reflector can't be held either meaning a properly timed second thunderjolt will hit her.

 

[Kiwikomix]

Argh, seriously? I forgot about QAC?

X_X

You can pretty much disregard everything I just said...

 

[DMG]

Argh, seriously? I forgot about QAC?

X_X

You can pretty much disregard everything I just said...

Lol I forgot about his QAC too. Man, I've had way too many brain farts today.

Well now if we consider his QAC and his ability to bait Zelda, does Pika have what it takes to make the matchup even or does Zelda still have the advantage? Like I said in my last post, I do not have a lot of experience against Zelda's and my opinions on the matchup probably aren't very close to being "well educated".

 

[Kiwikomix]

Well...
@ DanGR: What exactly did the Zelda in the match do to shut you down?

 

[talkingbeatles]

Another thing: Pika >> Captain Falcon
Pikachu is everything Captain Falcon hates in a match. He juggles & chaingrabs him easily, spams the hell out of him, & edgeguards him in his sleep.

I concur...

 

[DanGR]

Well Pika could bait Zelda with a thunder jolt and punish the lag on her reflector. He could also use a thunder jolt right around the time Zelda starts Din's Fire and pressure her into ending it sooner than she needs too. I'm not saying that fixes much but it is something to consider. I will take your word for it though, I do not have very much experience against a good Zelda and I cannot accurately pinpoint a method for combating her with my lack of knowledge.

That's not viable. Think about it. Can nayru's love be punished after a thundershock? No. Pikachu has to either jump or stand still for him to use thundershock. Let's examine his options:

1.) If he were to jump up and use it, Zelda can use her reflector to keep from taking damage. Now what options does pikachu have when he's airborne? nothing. He can't stall midair and wait for it too end. He can't fall onto the nayru's with a dair, or he'll get caught in it. He can't use a fair or anything! Nayru's is only punishable by range. If you have a ranged move that can penetrate the nayru's love w/o bringing your body's "hitbox" into range of nayru's love, then you can counter it. Otherwise it's almost impossible, unless you can wait for it to end. If you decide to try and do that, you can't b/c you've put yourself into the air, where you can't use a long enough ranged move. So basically, you're in the air when you need to be on the ground to punish.

2.) Ok, let's say you decide to use thundershock while grounded. You have the only option of jumping over the reflected thundershock...(if you're far away from it so you won't get hit from your lag) and punishing the nayru's love with a fsmash. If you tried a fair, you'd get hit by the nayru's, so that don't work. And if you tried a QACed anything, you'd get upsmashed into your face. It's physics don't allow it to punish a nayru's at all. It has to land next to Zelda, and the timing for you to get the QAC into the nayru's love's afterlag before an fsmash is inhuman. So all in all, I'm pretty sure(I may be wrong) that the lag on nayru's isn't enough for you to have time to jump over your own reflected thundershock and successfully fsmash her.

So we've covered all ground and air options with thundershock correct? All other forms of approaching are nullified by fsmash and upsmash spammage, so pikachu has no approach options against Zelda, unless he can get her to mess up.(like sonic does so often) Now imagine a sonic player as slow as pikachu(comparatively) trying to fight one of the(if not) the best defensive character in the game. That's how I look when I fight my friend's zelda.

Well...
@ DanGR: What exactly did the Zelda in the match do to shut you down?

^^^

 

[gantrain05]

That's not viable. Think about it. Can nayru's love be punished after a thundershock? No. Pikachu has to either jump or stand still for him to use thundershock. Let's examine his options:

1.) If he were to jump up and use it, Zelda can use her reflector to keep from taking damage. Now what options does pikachu have when he's airborne? nothing. He can't stall midair and wait for it too end. He can't fall onto the nayru's with a dair, or he'll get caught in it. He can't use a fair or anything! Nayru's is only punishable by range. If you have a ranged move that can penetrate the nayru's love w/o bringing your body's "hitbox" into range of nayru's love, then you can counter it. Otherwise it's almost impossible, unless you can wait for it to end. If you decide to try and do that, you can't b/c you've put yourself into the air, where you can't use a long enough ranged move. So basically, you're in the air when you need to be on the ground to punish.

2.) Ok, let's say you decide to use thundershock while grounded. You have the only option of jumping over the reflected thundershock...(if you're far away from it so you won't get hit from your lag) and punishing the nayru's love with a fsmash. If you tried a fair, you'd get hit by the nayru's, so that don't work. And if you tried a QACed anything, you'd get upsmashed into your face. It's physics don't allow it to punish a nayru's at all. It has to land next to Zelda, and the timing for you to get the QAC into the nayru's love's afterlag before an fsmash is inhuman. So all in all, I'm pretty sure(I may be wrong) that the lag on nayru's isn't enough for you to have time to jump over your own reflected thundershock and successfully fsmash her.

So we've covered all ground and air options with thundershock correct? All other forms of approaching are nullified by fsmash and upsmash spammage, so pikachu has no approach options against Zelda, unless he can get her to mess up.(like sonic does so often) Now imagine a sonic player as slow as pikachu(comparatively) trying to fight one of the(if not) the best defensive character in the game. That's how I look when I fight my friend's zelda.


^^^

i play against a decent zelda, and no u can't really punish naryu from the ground but with pika if u thunder jolt from the ground u can still jump over it and Dair or Fair her, i do it pretty often, but if u try to land and Fsmash her, then you either gonna just get Dsmashed away or Usmashed if ur really slow.

 

[Adapt]

i would say ZSS vs wolf is a massive disadvantage. ZSS has limited advance as it is, but wolf can combat everything thrown at him

I disagree, its not an easy match, but by no means is it a major disadvantage. Wolf can be chain-stunned as well

Wolf also has problems killing, which mitigates ZSS's biggest weak point, being killed too **** easily

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

That's not viable. Think about it. Can nayru's love be punished after a thundershock? No. Pikachu has to either jump or stand still for him to use thundershock. Let's examine his options:

1.) If he were to jump up and use it, Zelda can use her reflector to keep from taking damage. Now what options does pikachu have when he's airborne? nothing. He can't stall midair and wait for it too end. He can't fall onto the nayru's with a dair, or he'll get caught in it. He can't use a fair or anything! Nayru's is only punishable by range. If you have a ranged move that can penetrate the nayru's love w/o bringing your body's "hitbox" into range of nayru's love, then you can counter it. Otherwise it's almost impossible, unless you can wait for it to end. If you decide to try and do that, you can't b/c you've put yourself into the air, where you can't use a long enough ranged move. So basically, you're in the air when you need to be on the ground to punish.

2.) Ok, let's say you decide to use thundershock while grounded. You have the only option of jumping over the reflected thundershock...(if you're far away from it so you won't get hit from your lag) and punishing the nayru's love with a fsmash. If you tried a fair, you'd get hit by the nayru's, so that don't work. And if you tried a QACed anything, you'd get upsmashed into your face. It's physics don't allow it to punish a nayru's at all. It has to land next to Zelda, and the timing for you to get the QAC into the nayru's love's afterlag before an fsmash is inhuman. So all in all, I'm pretty sure(I may be wrong) that the lag on nayru's isn't enough for you to have time to jump over your own reflected thundershock and successfully fsmash her.

So we've covered all ground and air options with thundershock correct? All other forms of approaching are nullified by fsmash and upsmash spammage, so pikachu has no approach options against Zelda, unless he can get her to mess up.(like sonic does so often) Now imagine a sonic player as slow as pikachu(comparatively) trying to fight one of the(if not) the best defensive character in the game. That's how I look when I fight my friend's zelda.


^^^

I think Zelda beats pikachu too... the main reason is this: Zelda is most vulnerable while airborne... pika's airgame sucks. Pika can't even attemp to thunder her because she can reflect it for massive damage. most of pika's approaches get stuffed by zelda's range. Pika can't outcamp her and pika only has one move that can outrange her: Fsmash... but, you know how often you see Fsmash? rarely... it's ultra laggy and suffers majorly from move decay, so it's gotta hit the first time.

 

[GemN]

I'd just like to know why Fox is at disadvantage to Ike? At worst against Ike I believe it's neutral. Let's face it Ike isn't really a great chaser, but if fox uses his lasers Ike HAS to come after him eventually. Fox's moves are much faster obviously and can easily punish any missed attack by Ike. If an Ike is starting to give him trouble, he can easily get out of there and wait for a second before an approach, or if feeling unlucky at the approach use the laser and make Ike come to him. I've never had any trouble at all with any Ike I've ever played as Fox.