Brawl Character Match-Up chart

[DanGR]

umm... no... let's assume Gdorf gets right outside of Fsamsh range and zelda whiffs an Fsmash.... his jab still can't reach her without him moving forward... and at that point, she can whack him with something else.... she has moves which are faster than Fsmash if she needs them, you know... like Dtilt, her own jab.... also,, her Dtilt will set you up for pain and dodge your jab...

and wizard's foot is NOT I repeat NOT a counter for Din's

w/e dude. You're assuming the gdorf is ********. I can't have a conversation with you.

 

[Nestec]

I could see this match-up chart getting finally "perfected" if IvanEva designates a match-up to be discussed like every week, or every four days.
Something along those lines. I mean, we have enough info and experience among all of us here, it's just a bit disorganized.

Hmm, that would actually be a pretty good idea. The only problem is, it'd take forever... We would need multiple match-up debates going on at once.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

w/e dude. You're assuming the gdorf is ********. I can't have a conversation with you.

no, it's the other way around... you are assuming Zelda is stupid enough to just let G-dorf get inside of her

 

[Nestec]

O.o?
Ganondorf kidnapped Zelda, but not for THAT purpose.

 

[Browny]

There's now a better match-up thread for Toon Link.

that thread is horrible, theres no reasoning behind any of the numbers, they are mostly completely random

 

[DanGR]

no, it's the other way around... you are assuming Zelda is stupid enough to just let G-dorf get inside of her

Ex. you said in another thread that Olimar can be outcamped by Zelda. That's ridiculous.

 

[GoForkUrself]

This is stupid that it says Ganondorf has no good matchups. For one, Ganon owns Captain Falcon. There are others as well, but at least have Ganon as a good matchup vs Captain Falcon.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Ex. you said in another thread that Olimar can be outcamped by Zelda. That's ridiculous.

and you chide others for irrelivent arguments... tsk.

 

[DanGR]

and you chide others for irrelivent arguments... tsk.

I'm giving an example that you have assumed in the past that your opponent has very limited skills. It's completely relevant.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

look ganon will have to approach zelda we can all agree on that right. zelda's defense game with her reach and priority will beat out ganon's approach. Ganon is a big guy which makes him easy pickens for both zelda's up-smash and fair/bair so even if zelda will have to approach for some unforeseen ganon's speed and size will still lose out to zelda. ganon is a big slow guy which are zelda's favorite type of people to fight i am sorry but ganon has a disadvantage to zelda there is no doubt about it. Also i would like to add i and i feel at this point most zeldas use dins as a way to force your oppent to apporch since it is pretty easly block/dogded so saying a move beats it out is not a big deal at all. a good zelda will make ganon pay every time he tries to approch do to her range and dangr you start talking about mind games as a way for ganon to beat zelda which have nothing to do with character match ups since that has more to do with the person playing the character.

2 more things one is just b/c sonic the hedgedqawg said something wrong about one match up does not make him wrong on any other match up he might comment on.

the 2nd thing is Nestec that was a very funny joke b4

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

look ganon will have to approach zelda we can all agree on that right. zelda's defense game with her reach and priority will beat out ganon's approach. Ganon is a big guy which makes him easy pickens for both zelda's up-smash and fair/bair so even if zelda will have to approach for some unforeseen ganon's speed and size will still lose out to zelda. ganon is a big slow guy which are zelda's favorite type of people to fight i am sorry but ganon has a disadvantage to zelda there is no doubt about it. Also i would like to add i and i feel at this point most zeldas use dins as a way to force your oppent to apporch since it is pretty easly block/dogded so saying a move beats it out is not a big deal at all. a good zelda will make ganon pay every time he tries to approch do to her range and dangr you start talking about mind games as a way for ganon to beat zelda which have nothing to do with character match ups since that has more to do with the person playing the character.

2 more things one is just b/c sonic the hedgedqawg said something wrong about one match up does not make him wrong on any other match up he might comment on.

the 2nd thing is Nestec that was a very funny joke b4

seriously... if this matchup isn;t a HUGE advantage for zelda, it's only because Gdorf is heavy and Zelda is light... but is really awful for him... Zelda can pull off two stocks pretty regularly in this matchup and 3 stocks can happen from time to time... but that requires you having a good day, and your oponent having a bad one

 

[adumbrodeus]

Look, I play both Zelda and Ganondorf... this is definitely a match-up in Zelda's favor, and not a slight one at that.

how about ganondorf walks up to you and jabs. That's a good approach. He can fake her out too. He's not going to be stupid and just jump over you.

Even with a whiffed f-smash, there's no way that you'll be able to jab before Zelda can do something else. The ending lag is just too short. Also, remember, Zelda has disjointed hitboxes.

f she uses din's he can wizard's foot her to death. She can't just play defensive the whole match. If ganon gets the first strike, he can just camp and be defensive. He won't just charge at Zelda mindlessly. That's stupid. You can't assume that she can guess what he's going to do every approach. If he can get one hit on zelda, he can follow up while she's in the air. This is how Sonic makes his living.

Only at really close range, believe me, I've tried it.

Yes she can, that's what she's really built to do, camp.

Ganondorf is not sonic, he's not built to combo really well.

Really, Ganondorf doesn't really have much in the way of approaches on Zelda, if he baits he well he can do a down or over b, but that's really it. Thunderstorming is too short ranged, as is jab, dash attack lacks priority.

Ultimately, Zelda beats him in just about every category, plus she's got a projectile. Sure, he's got a defense, but that defense isn't enough to completely remove the effects, plus, it makes him vulnerable for a while.

No, this match-up is decidedly in Zelda's favor.

 

[Nestec]

^_^
Thanks, N.A.G.A.C.E.

I just find it kinda interesting how the match-up they're arguing is Ganondorf vs. Zelda. >__<

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

^ yea this match-up is a one sided one and should not have to be argued.

I don't play as ganon but i can't really believe he has no advantages. Ganon players should try to argue against other characters who don't have a obvious advantage over him such as cf, or another big slow guys like bowser (not saying he has the advantage over ether of them) instead of waisting time trying to argue about such an up hill battle as zelda vs ganondorf

 

[adumbrodeus]

I don't play as ganon but i can't really believe he has no advantages. Ganon players should try to argue against other characters who don't have a obvious advantage over him such as cf, or another big slow guys like bowser (not saying he has the advantage over ether of them) instead of waisting time trying to argue about such an up hill battle as zelda vs ganondorf

Well... who do you recommend?

Really though, there's no obligation to prove that your mains/secondaries have advantages, if he has no advantages he has no advantages, that is unfortunately, it. People tend to be way too gung ho about proving their characters are good and it really doesn't help things in the long term, if your char sucks he/she/it/potato won't win tournaments without an immense skill gap.

Yeah, I know they think that the character truly doesn't suck, but they need to look at things in a more objective fashion, no matter how annoying the truth is.

So, we shouldn't argue for an advantage against anyone unless we can find somebody ganondorf legitimately has an advantage over... (perhaps metaknight lol).

 

[Colbert]

Kirby vs. Pikachu

What I don't understand is Kirby's matchup with Pikachu being at a disadvantage. Pikachu seems to have a lot of good matchups on this chart, and I don't really understand why... is there something I'm missing? Neither of Pikachu's chain throws work well on Kirby, which may have to do with so many of his good matchups.

Kirby basically trumps Pikachu when it comes to the edge game, because he has a hard time getting edgeguarded. Pikachu's sideb is extremely predictable, and is asking to get spiked or knocked back with a bair. Also take into account Kirby's better aerials. Pikachu's only good edgeguarding aerial is his nair, and Kirby's bair has more range and about the same knockback. The priority on Pikachu's aerials are not very good, and Kirby's are much better (also keep in mind the slightly disjointed feet)

Pikachu's neutral b can only phase Kirby for a bit until it becomes obvious that it can be countered by Up b projectile spam or copying the ability. Kirby's emphasis on aerial attacks make this much less of a factor compared to other characters.

While Pikachu's down b beats Kirby's stone, this is only applicable to obvious situations that a good Kirby would never use. Most stone usage works due to mind games, and both of their startups causing a Pikachu win would have to be due to extreme predictability.

When Pikachu's down b is used to guard the edge, it is easy to punish due to Kirby's multiple jumps and how predictable it gets. Sometimes, even an aerial hammer can counter it in those situations. Kirby's down b is much easier to use as an edgeguard (and Kirby's inhale is also an awesome edgeguard against Pika)

Smashes I can give Pikachu the edge on, but I can't see much else working in his favor and Kirby's smashes can't be considered bad at all and accomplish the goals that need to get done.

Sorry if some of this doesn't make sense... it's kinda late and I typed this up somewhat fast. >_>

 

[Tagxy]

Floaty characters just arent good matchups against pika. If the Pika can QAC he can actually own a Pit. I don't consider rob to be a bad matchup. Actually the only character I see as a disadvantage for pika is Olimar and maybe Zelda. Pika does own snakes though.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Floaty characters just arent good matchups against pika. If the Pika can QAC he can actually own a Pit. I don't consider rob to be a bad matchup. Actually the only character I see as a disadvantage for pika is Olimar and maybe Zelda. Pika does own snakes though.

Both of those characters are floaty <_<

 

[Browny]

IMO, sonic is neutral against DK, Marth, IC, Pika, Wolf, TL

i dont expect anyone to agree with me, but im just gonna say it anyway. Ive never had any trouble with those match ups. nowhere near the degree of wario, MK, G&W, Zelda etc. believe it or not, its quite easy to get around sonics priority problem, his side b goes through everything (yes, even the godforsaken turtle, snakes tilts etc) when it is spaced correctly and his u-air goes through a lot more than you would think (it goes through the key, TL dair). And his ftilt has similar properties to most other characters ftilts. it clanks with a reverse warlock punch (seriously, try it yourself) and many other attacks

 

[Pat/Pro]

You need to get more input from all the top players on this. Bowser, Dedes, and a few others are done completely wrong.

 

[DanGR]

Why should Ganon be the one to approach? think about it. He can just sit outside of her range and wait for HER to approach if he has the lead.(even by 2%)

DDD is a big character, but he has the advantage over Zelda? The fact that he's big shouldn't complete you argument. His bair goes through everything Zelda has, and that's all he needs.

It seems like you're not giving ganon enough credit. He has some ways to approach if he must, and he kills very early against her. Edgeguarding her is easy, and once she's tossed into the air, you better run and get the butter, cuz she's toast.

As for STH's accuracy, Zelda is not perfect. Ganon WILL get inside of her, and he's great at following up. She only has to mess up once for Ganon to beat out her brains with his several killing options.

If you still think I'm totally wrong about everything I'm saying, then fine. I'll stop. I'd much rather get a Ganon main in here to discuss this with y'all.

 

[Brinzy]

Why should Ganon be the one to approach? think about it. He can just sit outside of her range and wait for HER to approach if he has the lead.(even by 2%)

DDD is a big character, but he has the advantage over Zelda? The fact that he's big shouldn't complete you argument. His bair goes through everything Zelda has, and that's all he needs.

It seems like you're not giving ganon enough credit. He has some ways to approach if he must, and he kills very early against her. Edgeguarding her is easy, and once she's tossed into the air, you better run and get the butter, cuz she's toast.

As for STH's accuracy, Zelda is not perfect. Ganon WILL get inside of her, and he's great at following up. She only has to mess up once for Ganon to beat out her brains with his several killing options.

If you still think I'm totally wrong about everything I'm saying, then fine. I'll stop. I'd much rather get a Ganon main in here to discuss this with y'all.

Yeah, big "if" when it comes to the lead. Ganon's a hard hitter, but Zelda can dish out the pain fairly fast herself (and fastER for that matter). Anyway, for a real argument:

Dedede has things that Ganon does not have at all or not as much of: projectiles, better recovery, higher prioritized moves, and range. Comparing Dedede to Ganon when it comes to facing Zelda is pointless.

Name Ganon's approaches. Let's see... a running attack, down B, *maybe* an aerial, though he'll usually lose, side B... what else? That's all I'm getting. All of those moves require for Ganon to take his body and get very close to Zelda - missing with ANY of these leaves him to very easy punishment from Nayru's Love, d-tilt, Dsmash, Fsmash, Usmash... hell, why don't I list everything here but Farore's Wind and dair? It's not impossible to approach Zelda with him, but she has options for every single approach the guy can think of. Wizard's Foot coming in? Nayru's Love will outprioritize it AND it gives Zelda invincibility frames. He better be **** sure he can hit with that Wizard's Foot from the side, or else he's gonna get pushed back out of range. He can use it to approach from above, but don't make yourself predictable, because this is easily punished as well. I could be wrong here, but doesn't Zelda's Usmash outprioiritze an aerial Wizard's Foot? dtilt >>> Side B. His running attack is a safe bet because of its surprising speed, but again, Fsmash can punish this and so can Nayru's Love.

Lol, THROW HER IN THE AIR, SHE'S TOAST, BUTTER PLZ. Zelda air-dodges if she's close. She gets from above Ganon if she's further away. Zelda throws out a nair if Ganon gets close to her in the air. Zelda throws a uair against Ganon's dair. Properly timed, he either takes the hit or he gets punished by a nair anyway. Can't ignore the lightning kicks. Ganon's not significantly better than Zelda in the air.

Yes, Ganon will get inside Zelda... too bad for him Zelda follows up better when someone's on the inside than Ganon. Nayru's Love comes out fast and grants invincibility. Dsmash is a very quick smash attack. Usmash tears up Ganon. SH nair works also. What's Ganon's next fastest ground attack after his neutral A? As far as I'm concerned, the above attacks have excellent speed vs. most of Ganon's attacks, and a lot of them are killing moves. You've said nothing for Ganon besides lolkilling moves and Zelda's lighter frame. Provide examples, or rather, let's wait for someone who will.

 

[Hipocrisy]

My last post was ignored...
Well, at least Dedede should have a large advantage vs. the five characters he can infinite grab, just like Marth. Also, there are a lot of small disadvantages that should be neutral, small advantages or even large advantages.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

Why should Ganon be the one to approach? think about it. He can just sit outside of her range and wait for HER to approach if he has the lead.(even by 2%)

DDD is a big character, but he has the advantage over Zelda? The fact that he's big shouldn't complete you argument. His bair goes through everything Zelda has, and that's all he needs.

It seems like you're not giving ganon enough credit. He has some ways to approach if he must, and he kills very early against her. Edgeguarding her is easy, and once she's tossed into the air, you better run and get the butter, cuz she's toast.

As for STH's accuracy, Zelda is not perfect. Ganon WILL get inside of her, and he's great at following up. She only has to mess up once for Ganon to beat out her brains with his several killing options.

If you still think I'm totally wrong about everything I'm saying, then fine. I'll stop. I'd much rather get a Ganon main in here to discuss this with y'all.

what makes you think ddd has the advantage on zelda i have a freind who plays as ddd and i don't find him tough for zelda at all. her din's can get him while he tries to waddle. zelda can't be chain grabed by him. all he has on her is his reach but he has that on everyone so to say that gives him the advantage on her would mean he has the advantage on everyone which he does not. Also with zelda has a pretty good reach as well so she does not even have to get as close as many of the other characters do to land hits. Also besides his bair which has a very good reach up-smash beats out his air game and bair only wins out when he is high enough in the air that she can't hit him. he is so big that a blind child with one hand could still land lightning kicks on him most of the time(no offense to one handed blind children). Also zelda can punish ddd's recovery very easily. The only reason its not a bigger advantage for zelda is b/c ddd is heavy while zelda is light. Also ddd is much better then ganondorf is

 

[Dark Sonic]

IMO, sonic is neutral against DK, Marth, IC, Pika, Wolf, TL

i dont expect anyone to agree with me, but im just gonna say it anyway. Ive never had any trouble with those match ups. nowhere near the degree of wario, MK, G&W, Zelda etc. believe it or not, its quite easy to get around sonics priority problem, his side b goes through everything (yes, even the godforsaken turtle, snakes tilts etc) when it is spaced correctly and his u-air goes through a lot more than you would think (it goes through the key, TL dair). And his ftilt has similar properties to most other characters ftilts. it clanks with a reverse warlock punch (seriously, try it yourself) and many other attacks

I definately wouldn't say neutral against Marth. Slight disadvantage sounds more acurate, because even though Sonic can get around some of his priority issues, he really has problems with Marth being a faster attacker than him. Marth's side B eats through most of Sonic's approaches (except for side B at close range of course, but Marth's side B is fast enough to hit you during the start up lag anyway). Marth's attacks are also very hard to punish, even for Sonic. His d-tilt, fair, and suprisingly shield breaker, all have very little lag and allow Marth to move before Sonic can really get any attacks in (besides dash attack, or if he had already been doing a spin, but the Marth should you know, have decent timing).

It's true that when Sonic gets under him Marth has a bit of trouble getting down, but the same can be said for viceversa.

Marth is definately not a Sonic counter, but it's still slightly in his favor (assuming their evenly skilled of course).

 

[Umpadumpalump]

Samus should be neutral against Diddy Kong because her projectile game far outclasses his. Samus can effectively stop Diddy's approach. Samus is much heavier than Diddy and can last longer in a fight. Along with that Samus can gimp and edgeguard Diddy way better than Diddy can edgeguard and/or gimp her. The only advantage Diddy really has is speed, which is enough because when he gets inside it's hard for Samus to shake him.

 

[DanGR]

ganondorf v zelda-I'm probably wrong. let's forget it and move on. I'd just like to say to anyone who says that this matchup, and/or others, shouldn't even be considered is stupid. EVERY matchup should be considered and analyzed. Did you know that Yoshi (yes, yoshi, regarded as a bottom tier character by many) has a huge advantage over Olimar?(high tier) I didn't believe what I heard when I heard it was difficult. I tried it out for myself and it seems impossible to beat him. Check out the Olimar forums. NO-ONE knows how to beat him. He's much harder than wolf.

DDD v Zelda- DDD doesn't necessarily have to approach. The lag on din's is enough for him to throw a waddle and airdodge the next din's (if they're at intermediate range) If he does, bair is the only thing he actually needs. He can float above her and ff a bair when she lets her guard down,(either by taking the bair bait, or using any empty move) making a very effective approach. His bair outprioritizes EVERY move that zelda has, maybe besides upsmash.DDD's ftilt outranges Zelda's fsmash. This makes for great spacing and great approaching. DDD's grab range is much longer than Zelda's making grabbing an excelent option as well.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Samus should be neutral against Diddy Kong because her projectile game far outclasses his.

Wait what?
No it doesn't.
Bananas are arguably one of the best projectiles in the game.
he can glide toss them and Fsmash the crap out of Samus and land it every single time without missing.
Bananas break the missiles,Diddy is short enough to avoid the Zair.
Bananas fortress sets up Diddy for racking up a large amount of damage on Samus.
Her projectiles won't stop his approach, hell it sure as heck isn;t stopped easily by Snake's.

Samus can effectively stop Diddy's approach.

She can't stop sonic and he has no projectiles.
Diddy gets out to bananasa both of which he can glide toss, cause a trip and combo Samus.
Aerially he breaks her, groundwise he breaks her.
She won't be capable of camping him because the missiles are slow and the bombs are less useful this time around.

Samus is much heavier than Diddy and can last longer in a fight. [

Damage racking fixes that problem and the fact he can link oup t many of his kill moves EASILY says alot.

Along with that Samus can gimp and edgeguard Diddy way better than Diddy can edgeguard and/or gimp her.

Agreed. But its very difficult for her to get him off the edge unless she camps the ledge and Diddy has a good amount of means getting around that.

The only advantage Diddy really has is speed, which is enough because when he gets inside it's hard for Samus to shake him.

Which he does very quickly due to the bananas and gliide tossing and aerial ability.,
Samus can keep him away for some time but not enough to be a big enough diffference.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

for the ganondorf zelda fight i was just stating that after what was already said about the fight it was a waist of time to continue the discusion.

now for ddd vs zelda i was not saying zelda has a huge advantage on ddd but i still think she has an advantage. yes ddd bair is very good but i am pretty sure zelda's up-smash can beat it out (this needs a little bit of testing) you could also just shield the bair and wait till you can the ddd in a better postion to hit him with one of zelda's moves. Now yes ddd's reach is better then zelda's but i covered this in my last post. So yes ddd has many good things he is a very good character but due to his size zelda has an easy time hitting him with all of her strong moves plus the spiked thing ddd throws out can be reflected by zelda. and yes he has a far grab range but zelda cant be chain grabed and i am pretty sure zelda's f-smash has more range. plus due to his size when you are in close enough to hit him with the f-smash you could go for the up-smash or even a bair/fair and land it most of the time. i guess what i am trying to say here is that once zelda gets within range to hit ddd he is in trouble. (side note: my friend who plays ddd is a very lucky guy who throws more spiked guys then one would believe so when he goes to throw a waddle at me i reflect them which means that i often send the spiked ones back at him)

edit: i almost forgot i am not saying zelda dominates ddd but she does have the advantage

if this is not that well written its b/c i got distracted while writing it and lost some of what i was going to write (it happens)

 

[Umpadumpalump]

Wait what?
No it doesn't.
Bananas are arguably one of the best projectiles in the game.
he can glide toss them and Fsmash the crap out of Samus and land it every single time without missing.
Bananas break the missiles,Diddy is short enough to avoid the Zair.
Bananas fortress sets up Diddy for racking up a large amount of damage on Samus.
Her projectiles won't stop his approach, hell it sure as heck isn;t stopped easily by Snake's.

You're right I forgot about those bananas, but him throwing them out gives the Samus player time to react. And for his approach I wasn't talking about stopping them with projectiles. Samus has several attacks to stop his aerial approach. His ground approach I'm not sure 'cause I don't know much about Diddy's Ats.

She can't stop sonic and he has no projectiles.
Diddy gets out to bananasa both of which he can glide toss, cause a trip and combo Samus.
Aerially he breaks her, groundwise he breaks her.
She won't be capable of camping him because the missiles are slow and the bombs are less useful this time around.

I, personally have little problem stopping Sonic. Zair can stop most of his aerial approaches, and on the ground he only has the advantage when he's close due to his range.

Damage racking fixes that problem and the fact he can link oup t many of his kill moves EASILY says alot.

Okay well how is he going to rack damage?

Agreed. But its very difficult for her to get him off the edge unless she camps the ledge and Diddy has a good amount of means getting around that.

Are those means enough to give him the advantage?

Which he does very quickly due to the bananas and gliide tossing and aerial ability.,
Samus can keep him away for some time but not enough to be a big enough diffference.

Even so, she can still get away again.

 

[fissionprime]

what does everyone think about the ddd/ice climbers matchup. Im personally thinking that it is ic's>>ddd but im not sure about what everyone else thinks.

 

[DanGR]

for the ganondorf zelda fight i was just stating that after what was already said about the fight it was a waist of time to continue the discusion.

now for ddd vs zelda i was not saying zelda has a huge advantage on ddd but i still think she has an advantage. yes ddd bair is very good but i am pretty sure zelda's up-smash can beat it out (this needs a little bit of testing) you could also just shield the bair and wait till you can the ddd in a better postion to hit him with one of zelda's moves. Now yes ddd's reach is better then zelda's but i covered this in my last post. So yes ddd has many good things he is a very good character but due to his size zelda has an easy time hitting him with all of her strong moves plus the spiked thing ddd throws out can be reflected by zelda. and yes he has a far grab range but zelda cant be chain grabed and i am pretty sure zelda's f-smash has more range. plus due to his size when you are in close enough to hit him with the f-smash you could go for the up-smash or even a bair/fair and land it most of the time. i guess what i am trying to say here is that once zelda gets within range to hit ddd he is in trouble. (side note: my friend who plays ddd is a very lucky guy who throws more spiked guys then one would believe so when he goes to throw a waddle at me i reflect them which means that i often send the spiked ones back at him)

I guess it's how you look at it. I think DDD has the advantage even with the things you just stated.
-He can't cg her
-the waddles can be reflected, but for what purpose?
-bair is a good approach that can be shielded if DDD messes up
-zelda's upsmash beats out bair, but is easily punished by bair if missed
-DDD has much better weight
-DDD has much better(almost unstoppable) gimping ability against zelda
-DDD outranges her
-Zelda has some strong attack when up close(though I think DDD still has the advantage up close)
-DDD is big, thus creating a bigger target if DDD misses an attack
-DDD has better grab range

Like I said, it's how you look at it. I see DDD with the advantage over her with the experience I've had with the matchup as well as analyzing the facts.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Yoshi beats DK what are you talkin about

Yoshi's big size and weight works for Yoshi's advantage
I rarely ever have trouble against DK, well except this one who's a better player than me yet I can still beat his DK with yoshi.


if Yoshi hits dk once, he'll hit him again.
If yoshi gets dk in the air, yoshi has him, juggling DK is like juggling plastic grocery bags, not very hard.

Well DK's nair (is that the one?) comes out kinda quickly and hits yoshi sometimes stopping any combos.

 

[Colbert]

You're right I forgot about those bananas.

Just the fact that you can forget about Diddy's bananas shows your experience in this matchup. How the hell do you not think of bananas when thinking of Diddy?

Samus has several attacks to stop his aerial approach. His ground approach I'm not sure 'cause I don't know much about Diddy's Ats.

Diddy doesn't need to aerial approach, to be honest, but it is still very good and aerial approaches are not completely shut down. On the ground, Diddy can run circles around Samus with bananas, and she has no defense against them. A halfway decent Diddy always finds way to make bananas connect. On the ground, side b has enough priority and cuts through most of what Samus has.

Okay, well how is he going to rack damage?

lol. Have you ever played a Diddy? Most of his moves link together perfectly, especially throwing in bananas. He can cartwheel, combo, throw, or smash out of any glide toss. Samus also has tons of punishable attacks.

 

[IvanEva]

Its sick that your from Ottawa IvanEva, I should see you at ToS5

Nice. I'm hoping that my experience there (as that'll be my first larger-scale tournament) will help me with the chart. My goal is to come out feeling that Lucas/Samus/Yoshi rule the roster!

seriously, zelda mains do NOT find earthbounders big problems... it's 6:4 at WORST and is probably not even that bad.

It's not "that bad"... which is why they're at a small advantage and not a large one. There's no denying that the Mother kids have the advantage over Zelda. They don't destroy her, of course, but they still have the upper hand.

Dedede has a chaingrab vs. 27 characters, but he has... 12 advantages?
IMO, this should help him at least a bit in some match-ups, especially with characters like Yoshi, Ness, Lucas or Peach from disadvantage/neutral to neutral/advantage.
His CG can be really dangerous, and his tournament results confirm this.

Yeah, I'm inclined to agree. I guess I will have to dig through the Dedede threads after all.

I have not really played squirtle, but i've played many people that are good with him. i seriously think that you need to change around and make his position better on the charts. and jiggs because they both have good agility and could beat many slower chars even if jiggs dies early

There are no "positions" on this chart. It's not a matter of being good, bad, or whatever in comparison to the rest of the cast. You have to look at individual match-ups and absolutely nothing else.

Guys just btw, nerfs shouldnt be taken into consideration when talkin about tier lists. That said, jiggs has an amazing buffed fair that kills, a good bair, a dair that LEADS TO REST! Thats a big one. Rest kills at around 70% so being able to land it after a dair is big. Her rollout is buffed and people can have trouble against it if they dont know what to do. Her side b, has rediculous aerial priority. Also, bowyer was winning or placing in the top 3 of tournies goin all jiggs before he left brawl mostly, and he said jiggs was probably bottom mid and that she only has a few really hard matchups. Just my imput.

Wrong thread. The tier list thread is elsewhere. This thread is to look at and chart individual match-ups.

This thread was obviously made with extreme Game and Watch bias.
Ganondorf should have an advantage over Zelda.
His down-b nuetralizes her side-b.

Game and Watch is one of my least favorite characters along with ROB, Peach, and Mario. I'm try to be very objective when I decide on what to put in the chart.

Zelda > Ganondorf. I can't see myself changing that anytime soon unless some crazy new Ganondorf techinques are discovered that complelely neutralize Zelda. His power and her light weight keep it from being a large Zelda advantage.

Hey, just a random question, but do you guys think the SBRers create their own match-up chart before they make the final tier list?

I really hope so; no offense, IvanEva, but this match-up chart is probably never going to get close to accurate (that is, unless sides can come to agreements in debates). The closest thing we can get to a "perfect match-up chart" is one from the SBRers themselves. ^__^

I hate the Smash Back Room. Absolutely despise it. The thought of some elite cabal within a Nintendo game community just doesn't sit right with me. What exactly is so unbelieveably special about them that makes their threads too much for us non-elites to see? I can completely understand making threads that can be read but not posted in but to keep them completely private, hidden away from our undeserving eyes, is the ultimate act of eliticism.

That being said, I also get the feeling that those players probably have an overall better knowledge of Brawl than many of us here who, perhaps, don't play quite as much or as seriously.

This match-up chart is really more just "IvanEva's beliefs concerning match-ups". It's a chart of what I have come to believe based upon experience, observation, and recommendations (in that order). My lack of tournament play and play against several characters no doubt has hampered the chart's progress (for example, I've yet to see a tourny-level Dedede mop the floor with everybody with chaingrabs and such) but it's still slowly coming around.

I have a great dislike for those who enjoy having things spoon-fed to them by others, especially by a bunch of elitists who seem to consider their conversations too sensitive for us lesser folk. When/if they make a match-up chart it'll be interesting to compare the two. Remember that theoretically each match-up is already determined. Everybody's just trying to discover what it is.

O.o?
Ganondorf kidnapped Zelda, but not for THAT purpose.

Best post in this thread. Ganondorf >> Zelda now.

This is stupid that it says Ganondorf has no good matchups. For one, Ganon owns Captain Falcon. There are others as well, but at least have Ganon as a good matchup vs Captain Falcon.

Ganondorf doesn't own Captain Falcon. His superior power and priority is counterbalanced by Falcon's much better off-stage game, and punishing speed (and a lot of Ganondorf's things can be punished).

"At least have Ganon..." You're making it sound as if I just give or take advantages because I like/dislike/feel sorry for a character. That's not the case. Please look at each match-up individually. Don't consider how a character fares against others, just the one opponent that you're looking into.

You need to get more input from all the top players on this. Bowser, Dedes, and a few others are done completely wrong.

If you can tell that they're done completely wrong (certainly not COMPLETELY), then I need look no further, no?

The Dedede ones seem... wrong... and yet right. He's an odd character that I definitely have trouble doing match-ups for. I can see Bowser vs. Samus changing but other than that I think that his match-ups are fine.

Samus should be neutral against Diddy Kong because her projectile game far outclasses his. Samus can effectively stop Diddy's approach. Samus is much heavier than Diddy and can last longer in a fight. Along with that Samus can gimp and edgeguard Diddy way better than Diddy can edgeguard and/or gimp her. The only advantage Diddy really has is speed, which is enough because when he gets inside it's hard for Samus to shake him.

Even if Diddy didn't have bananas I'd still give him the advantage here. He can get close to samus fairly easily.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

I guess it's how you look at it. I think DDD has the advantage even with the things you just stated.
-He can't cg her
-the waddles can be reflected, but for what purpose?
-bair is a good approach that can be shielded if DDD messes up
-zelda's upsmash beats out bair, but is easily punished by bair if missed
-DDD has much better weight
-DDD has much better(almost unstoppable) gimping ability against zelda
-DDD outranges her
-Zelda has some strong attack when up close(though I think DDD still has the advantage up close)
-DDD is big, thus creating a bigger target if DDD misses an attack
-DDD has better grab range

Like I said, it's how you look at it. I see DDD with the advantage over her with the experience I've had with the matchup as well as analyzing the facts.

what do you mean with the ddd is big thus creating a bigger target if ddd misses an attack do you mean that zelda has an easy hit if ddd misses his attack.
also the point to reflecting is so when a spiked guy is thrown you will send it back at ddd it was a side not not a big deal.
I still think that when zelda is close up she has the better of the situation

Also there was a topic about this on the zelda boards were some people thought zelda should have a big advantage on ddd but i have to agree with( i think it was s2 not sure) who said that zelda has a small advantage in this fight and to not underestimate ddd. i know ddd is a very good character and any zelda that thinks they have an easy win here is just fooling themselves i think it is a 6:4 for zelda

P.S i forgot to say how zelda can give ddd a lot of trouble when he is trying to get back to the stage.
Also I might of gotten what was said in the zelda thread wrong it has bee i while so if i find the thread i will come back and edit it so it is more accurate but i think what i paraphrased was close to what was said but ether way it was the point i wanted to get across anyway

edit: ok so it was in the match-up thread on the zelda boards and there were some who thought ddd was at a big disadvantage, s2 i think might of thougth evne or evenish and there were others who said small advantage for zelda which is what i tend to think (but maybe its b/c i am use to ddd since my friend plays him alot) i can see were he might be a tough fight but i feel once you get use to what he has zelda will have the edge on him

 

[fissionprime]

could we talk about ddd/ice climbers a bit?

 

[DanGR]

what do you mean with the ddd is big thus creating a bigger target if ddd misses an attack do you mean that zelda has an easy hit if ddd misses his attack.
also the point to reflecting is so when a spiked guy is thrown you will send it back at ddd it was a side not not a big deal.
I still think that when zelda is close up she has the better of the situation

I simply summed up what we had been talking about so far-the facts(imo)

Also there was a topic about this on the zelda boards were some people thought zelda should have a big advantage on ddd but i have to agree with( i think it was s2 not sure) who said that zelda has a small advantage in this fight and to not underestimate ddd. i know ddd is a very good character and any zelda that thinks they have an easy win here is just fooling themselves i think it is a 6:4 for zelda

I agree for the most part; some noobs say it's Zelda>>DDD and that's their opinion. I don't agree though. I think DDD>Zelda slightly. They probably got their 5 year old sister to use DDD to prove their point. you have to look at both sides anyways, not just the Zelda boards and their opinions.

P.S i forgot to say how zelda can give ddd a lot of trouble when he is trying to get back to the stage.
Also I might of gotten what was said in the zelda thread wrong it has bee i while so if i find the thread i will come back and edit it so it is more accurate but i think what i paraphrased was close to what was said but ether way it was the point i wanted to get across anyway

STH was the only one from what I remember that said that he thinks DDD has a large disadvantage v Zelda.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

i was not saying that i agreed with the zelda>>ddd thing i was just stating what was said so i could then get into how i disagree with that idea and agreed with the zelda>ddd i was more or less just giving a backround so what i said did not seem out of no were

 

[DanGR]

i was not saying that i agreed with the zelda>>ddd thing i was just stating what was said so i could then get into how i disagree with that idea and agreed with the zelda>ddd i was more or less just giving a backround so what i said did not seem out of no were

I understood. no problem.