Brawl Character Match-Up chart

[adumbrodeus]

(in regards to Earthbounders vs. Zelda)

Honestly... you're hellbent on getting this to go even when it won't be for a long time, if at all. They're not counters and it's not a terrible match-up, but Zelda is at a disadvantage, as you should expect to hear from me by now on this topic. I'm not gonna repeat my entire argument for both characters, but I must ask you...

If you agreed before that, at worst, it's 6:4 Earthbounder, why are you still trying to make it even? If Marth's 6:4 on Zelda earns a disadvantage against her, why not the Earthbounders?

Wait, so you say he's totally wrong... and then agree with him?!

Look, he didn't say that it's a neutral match-up there, he said it's terrible and that they do not counter Zelda. Both of which is true.

You also said that it's not a terrible match-up and that they do not counter Zelda...


Obviously you misunderstood him, he may still think it's neutral, but he definitely didn't SAY it was neutral, at least not here.

How do you get Sheik + Zelda > R.O.B? How do you safely make that transition? R.O.B has very nice launching power and some quick attacks. I'm just asking, not debating.

The Zelda boards are working on techniques, ledge techniques seem to be the most reliable at the moment , but the timing is rather difficult.

 

[smaci92]

I love this thread! =D

 

[ShadowLink84]

Hardly get hit by em, even if I walk over them

Mines=mindgames
nice idea for missing the point.
They are used as containment.
Diddy's bananasa are similar, they present an incredibly offensive advantage when facing campers.

For the air usmash, uair, fair, zair, sometimes nair. For the ground dtilt, utilt, ftilt and sometimes f&dsmash; but since Diddy will always undoubtebly have a banana I don't see how that matters.

You missed the point until the end.
Diddy uses the bananasa for his aerial approach as well not only ground approach.
if I am mentioning Diddy's approach the majority of the time he'll either have a banana i hand or lay them down from the air.
As you stated yourself she does have anti air methods (most of which are not really useful IMO) but they really cannot do much to Diddy's aerial and ground game, for one even if he has no bananas the amount of speed from his attacks means she can only really rely on her Nair and Uair.
Usmash is obvious (seriously why would DIddy attack so directly and eat the Usmash?).

I wasn't talking about Sonic...

you had mentioned him earlier so I touched on the subject a bit.

That was my point.If Samus turns the bananas around on Diddy not only will she not be burdened by them, but Diddy will be. Considering that Bananas seem to be a base for his offense it could really turn the game around.

Assuming she has the chance to grab them. If she is playig defensive and Diddy is ont he offensive he isn't going to give her much of a chance to pick up the bananas.
Yes once she gets a hold of them he gets hurt badly (this goes for every character).
however how easy is it to get ahold of the bananas?

Fast, yes. Effective, yes. I wouldn't say hard to predict though. He slowly tosses a banana behind him, and picks it up, I 'm gonna know what he'll do next.

No not really. *chucks bananas behind him*
*chucks another*
*picks up farthest bananas then glide tosses and picks up second and glide tosses then Fsmash*
He has a large number of options and thats only one of them.

Even if he is predictable it would be the equivalent of trying to catch Sonic out of his spincharge at full speed.

Bombs can replace side dodging at a decent range and Fmash/Dsmash can be avoided with proper spacing.

Bombs take a moment to place out and don't stay out very long and the bananasa can break them.

Anyone's Fsmash/Dsmash can be avoided with proper spacing but again, thats ignoring the fact on what Diddy is doing.
As I mentioned he can nuse bananas to break the bombs.
Or he can use a bananas while attacking aerially.

Proper spacing means little if Diddy is controlling it the majority of the time.

You make glide tossing seem unconditional, so Diddy can do this practically at any time with little to no effort? You don't really camp with Samus anyway, that's only useful when on the opposite side of the stage.

untrue camping doesn't mean staying near the ledge all the time. Camping simply means extremely defensive play, constantly controlling the spacing so your opponent is out of range.
Thats what camping is in this game.

Diddy can glide toss do it without any effort.

Also, we can't just put out Samus' projectiles. Yes, they can be stopped a number of ways, but that doesn't make them completely ineffective. If I can hit a Fox or a Pit or a Wolf, I can hit a Diddy.

Yeah you can hi a fox or Wolf or Pit (assuming they forget they have a reflector) and yes it is easier to hit a Diddy.
However similar to sonic you can get maybe one or two shots off but then he's in your face.
Not to mention her projectiles are quite slow.

Aside from that, though, I'll just leave it alone for now. I'll come back when I get more experience facing Diddys.

play alphazealots.

 

[Brinzy]

Wait, so you say he's totally wrong... and then agree with him?!

Look, he didn't say that it's a neutral match-up there, he said it's terrible and that they do not counter Zelda. Both of which is true.

You also said that it's not a terrible match-up and that they do not counter Zelda...


Obviously you misunderstood him, he may still think it's neutral, but he definitely didn't SAY it was neutral, at least not here.



The Zelda boards are working on techniques, ledge techniques seem to be the most reliable at the moment , but the timing is rather difficult.

Perhaps my choice of words was poor, and I think where the misunderstand comes in is:

"If you agreed before that, at worst, it's 6:4 Earthbounder, why are you still trying to make it even? "

In our previous debates, he said it's 5:5 or 6:4, leaning more towards 5:5 obviously since he doesn't mostly agree with my stance.. He won't take my word for it because it's just me and because of the possibility that I'm being biased. In *this* thread, from what was posted a few pages back, he might not have said it was neutral, but he has indeed stated it was neutral before, and last time I checked, he hasn't made a change on that stance. I don't know where he stands with it, exactly.

Also, he has never said that Earthbounders were a terrible match-up for Zelda. The most I've read is, "It's not that hard", and it's true, it's not that hard, but I'm arguing that Zelda is, indeed, disadvantaged here. I was too vague mainly because I'm sure he's seen my arguments for Ness and Lucas, and I didn't consider my choice of words too well for this thread.

Unless he changed somewhere and I didn't see it, it's currently him (5:5) vs. me (6:4 Earthbounders).

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

How do you get Sheik + Zelda > R.O.B? How do you safely make that transition? R.O.B has very nice launching power and some quick attacks. I'm just asking, not debating.

Transformation time from Shiek to Zelda is shorter than from Zelda to shiek I think... but that could just be my Wii being weird... regardless:

ROB mains admit to having trouble with Zelda because she honestly does outcamp him.. his projectiles broadcast themselves enough to be NLd and must be charged. He;s floaty so she easily juggles him. It's still not a great matchup though, Zelda is completely beaten by ROB in the air and has a LOT of trouble killing him.

Let's look at shiek: shiek has even MORE trouble killing ROB and does not outcamp him making the matchup bad for shiek in general also, Shiek can't edgeguard him like is often the shiek strategy... this is what makes ROB a bad matchup for shiek... the fact that shiek just can't seal the deal.... but shiek's fast aerials actually give shiek the advatage in the air... and, on the ground, shiek has a bit of trouble getting inside ROB... but, once there, shiek can apply presure to rack up damage.


So we look at the matchup... both of Zelda and Shiek have trouble killing ROB so that means, according to the matchup chart, you'd play Zelda and accept a roughly even matchup... but this is WRONG... you play as shiek.. you wrack up the damage to tripple digits and THEN you transform... it's not hard, if you land ONE smash attack (Dsmash is great for this since it's fast and has a good trajectory) you send ROB flying far enough away that you can transform, after all, ROB isn't the fastest of characters, if you hit him off the right edge of the stage and run to the left (or not.. you can stand still if he's far enough away) and then transform... you WILL transform before he can recover... he might be able to laser you... or worse... gyro you if you tranform at too risky a time.. but, regardless, he won't cose the distance before you can.

Then, you say, wel then you're stuck with Zelda who is only even with ROB and you are probably at a disadvatag because you played shiek earlier who is NOT as good against ROB... but that would be false... Shiek shouldn't have increased damage for battling ROB unless you had a LOT of trouble getting inside of him... this is because shiek doesn't matchup well against rob just because shiek can't seal the deal... not because ROB does especially well against her throughout the course of battle or counters any of shiek's skills very well.

You might say, however, that your cause would still be an uphill battle because Zelda has trouble kiulling him. But you'd be wrong. The reason Zelda has trouble killing ROB is because she decays all of her moves SOO much by trying to wrack up damage against him... but, if you started as shiek, Zelda will have a COMPLETELY FRESH moveset this means that ROB has to wory about ALL of Zelda's KO moves and, just FYI, al of Zelda's moves potentially have KO power besides her neutral Jab, her nair, NL, and her Dtilt (though Dtilt can combo into kill moves easily) I suppose FW can't kill either... at least, not in this matchup, ROB's recovery is too good to be severely hurt by it's low trajectory.

And, before you say that Zelda's aerials or Din's shouldn't count as kill moves since ROB beats her in the air and can dodge Din's easily here's why they all still are:
Fair & Bair: ROB is a VERY big targetand has some blindspots on the ground... as such, you can SH a LK right to his face.
Uair: Enormous killing power, huge range... even better than ROBs Dair I think.
Bair: ROBs recovery might be nearly impossible to gimp... but he's very vulnerable during it since he can't airdodge... it might prove harder to land this one than the rest... but it's pretty much a guarunteed kill.
Din's: same thing... he can't airdodge out of his recovery so He's a sitting duck for Din's and it can actually kill before 200% might even do so at 150% if fresh... which it may be since you were shiek for the first half of the match.


This is one of the rare matchups where playing Zelda AND shiek is better than playing either one of them alone by a substantial amount... it might justify adding Zelda/Shiek to the matchup chart... but maybe not... it's very strange.. though, I predict PT may begin to develop similar matchups.


edit: At raphael:
I was probably wrong about it being even.. but I'm still not sure it's even a 6:4 advatage... Zelda Vs. Olimar and Zelda Vs. Earthbounders might be closer to 5.5:4.5

I mean.. there might be a SLIGHT dissadvatage... but it's still anyone's game... not like marth or G&W where there's a noticable uphill battle

 

[Fear The Force]

Transformation time from Shiek to Zelda is shorter than from Zelda to shiek I think... but that could just be my Wii being weird... regardless:

ROB mains admit to having trouble with Zelda because she honestly does outcamp him.. his projectiles broadcast themselves enough to be NLd and must be charged. He;s floaty so she easily juggles him. It's still not a great matchup though, Zelda is completely beaten by ROB in the air and has a LOT of trouble killing him.

Let's look at shiek: shiek has even MORE trouble killing ROB and does not outcamp him making the matchup bad for shiek in general also, Shiek can't edgeguard him like is often the shiek strategy... this is what makes ROB a bad matchup for shiek... the fact that shiek just can't seal the deal.... but shiek's fast aerials actually give shiek the advatage in the air... and, on the ground, shiek has a bit of trouble getting inside ROB... but, once there, shiek can apply presure to rack up damage.


So we look at the matchup... both of Zelda and Shiek have trouble killing ROB so that means, according to the matchup chart, you'd play Zelda and accept a roughly even matchup... but this is WRONG... you play as shiek.. you wrack up the damage to tripple digits and THEN you transform... it's not hard, if you land ONE smash attack (Dsmash is great for this since it's fast and has a good trajectory) you send ROB flying far enough away that you can transform, after all, ROB isn't the fastest of characters, if you hit him off the right edge of the stage and run to the left (or not.. you can stand still if he's far enough away) and then transform... you WILL transform before he can recover... he might be able to laser you... or worse... gyro you if you tranform at too risky a time.. but, regardless, he won't cose the distance before you can.

Then, you say, wel then you're stuck with Zelda who is only even with ROB and you are probably at a disadvatag because you played shiek earlier who is NOT as good against ROB... but that would be false... Shiek shouldn't have increased damage for battling ROB unless you had a LOT of trouble getting inside of him... this is because shiek doesn't matchup well against rob just because shiek can't seal the deal... not because ROB does especially well against her throughout the course of battle or counters any of shiek's skills very well.

You might say, however, that your cause would still be an uphill battle because Zelda has trouble kiulling him. But you'd be wrong. The reason Zelda has trouble killing ROB is because she decays all of her moves SOO much by trying to wrack up damage against him... but, if you started as shiek, Zelda will have a COMPLETELY FRESH moveset this means that ROB has to wory about ALL of Zelda's KO moves and, just FYI, al of Zelda's moves potentially have KO power besides her neutral Jab, her nair, NL, and her Dtilt (though Dtilt can combo into kill moves easily) I suppose FW can't kill either... at least, not in this matchup, ROB's recovery is too good to be severely hurt by it's low trajectory.

And, before you say that Zelda's aerials or Din's shouldn't count as kill moves since ROB beats her in the air and can dodge Din's easily here's why they all still are:
Fair & Bair: ROB is a VERY big targetand has some blindspots on the ground... as such, you can SH a LK right to his face.
Uair: Enormous killing power, huge range... even better than ROBs Dair I think.
Bair: ROBs recovery might be nearly impossible to gimp... but he's very vulnerable during it since he can't airdodge... it might prove harder to land this one than the rest... but it's pretty much a guarunteed kill.
Din's: same thing... he can't airdodge out of his recovery so He's a sitting duck for Din's and it can actually kill before 200% might even do so at 150% if fresh... which it may be since you were shiek for the first half of the match.


This is one of the rare matchups where playing Zelda AND shiek is better than playing either one of them alone by a substantial amount... it might justify adding Zelda/Shiek to the matchup chart... but maybe not... it's very strange.. though, I predict PT may begin to develop similar matchups.


edit: At raphael:
I was probably wrong about it being even.. but I'm still not sure it's even a 6:4 advatage... Zelda Vs. Olimar and Zelda Vs. Earthbounders might be closer to 5.5:4.5

I mean.. there might be a SLIGHT dissadvatage... but it's still anyone's game... not like marth or G&W where there's a noticable uphill battle

nah; that'z kinda silly; zelda easily damages R.O.B. fast. shiek can't really do anything, and is owned by gyros, f-tilts, lasers, nairs, etc.

In fact, whenever a zelda player turns into shiek, itz VERY likely they are going to be killed fast. I think shiek is even lighter than zelda, and R.O.B. is a powerhouse, with good speed. the best thing for a zelda player to do is just to stay as zelda. Why?

Simple; a zelda player will force a R.O.B. to approach, due to the annoying din's fires, and nayru loves. even close inside, zelda poses a problem for R.O.B. because she has VERY strong smashes with insane priority. I remember being KOed by a zelda player when she did her forward smash when I was around 120%. The good thing about R.O.B is he has great aerial game, and has good ways to approach zelda.

In essence, turning to shiek is silly, and you are just asking to be creamed by R.O.B. iMo, R.O.B. has a MAJOR advantage over shiek.

Now, I'd like to comment on the g&w matchup. iMo, they're pretty even; yes, g&w has probably the best aerial moves in the game, and he can be pretty annoying with his upair, but who doesn't he do this against? R.O.B. has nice range on his forward tilts to wrack up dmg against g&w players who like to short hop and do bairs or fairs all day while keeping a distance.

His strength allows him to KO g&w fairly easy (even easier because g&w is pretty light). Nonetheless, I believe that they are a neutral matchup.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Perhaps my choice of words was poor, and I think where the misunderstand comes in is:

"If you agreed before that, at worst, it's 6:4 Earthbounder, why are you still trying to make it even? "

In our previous debates, he said it's 5:5 or 6:4, leaning more towards 5:5 obviously since he doesn't mostly agree with my stance.. He won't take my word for it because it's just me and because of the possibility that I'm being biased. In *this* thread, from what was posted a few pages back, he might not have said it was neutral, but he has indeed stated it was neutral before, and last time I checked, he hasn't made a change on that stance. I don't know where he stands with it, exactly.

Also, he has never said that Earthbounders were a terrible match-up for Zelda. The most I've read is, "It's not that hard", and it's true, it's not that hard, but I'm arguing that Zelda is, indeed, disadvantaged here. I was too vague mainly because I'm sure he's seen my arguments for Ness and Lucas, and I didn't consider my choice of words too well for this thread.

Unless he changed somewhere and I didn't see it, it's currently him (5:5) vs. me (6:4 Earthbounders).

My point was that you shouldn't assume, nothing that he said tin that post suggests that believes it's a neutral match-up.

He could've very easily changed his opinions (and if you look at his post, he did, he considers the Earthbounders as haven't a slight edge over Zelda).

Just respond to what he said in the post you're responding to, not what you think he meant based on previous expirience, it saves a great deal of trouble.

 

[Brinzy]

Well I read what you said about ROB, and I understand now why you'd do StZ.

As for the other topic, yes, it's not like Marth or G&W... but last time I checked, Marth does 6:4 as well, and he gets a small check against Zelda.

My point was that you shouldn't assume, nothing that he said tin that post suggests that believes it's a neutral match-up.

He could've very easily changed his opinions (and if you look at his post, he did, he considers the Earthbounders as haven't a slight edge over Zelda).

Just respond to what he said in the post you're responding to, not what you think he meant based on previous expirience, it saves a great deal of trouble.

Yeah, not in THAT post. Again, I'm continuing a debate with him, and it was my mistake to bring it up here and not in the thread on the Zelda section.

Like I said prior to that post, since I obviously could not see it... I didn't know where he stood. But alright then...

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

nah; that'z kinda silly; zelda easily damages R.O.B. fast. shiek can't really do anything, and is owned by gyros, f-tilts, lasers, nairs, etc.

In fact, whenever a zelda player turns into shiek, itz VERY likely they are going to be killed fast. I think shiek is even lighter than zelda, and R.O.B. is a powerhouse, with good speed. the best thing for a zelda player to do is just to stay as zelda. Why?

Simple; a zelda player will force a R.O.B. to approach, due to the annoying din's fires, and nayru loves. even close inside, zelda poses a problem for R.O.B. because she has VERY strong smashes with insane priority. I remember being KOed by a zelda player when she did her forward smash when I was around 120%. The good thing about R.O.B is he has great aerial game, and has good ways to approach zelda.

In essence, turning to shiek is silly, and you are just asking to be creamed by R.O.B. iMo, R.O.B. has a MAJOR advantage over shiek.

-Zelda DOES easily damage ROB... but she does so at the expense of decaying all of her kill moves.

- You wouldn't turn into shiek (except after a KO Vs. ROB) you'd start as shiek... and shiek and Zelda have Identiacl weights.. I believe.. at least, that's what all the charts say.

-Fsmash CAN kill at low damages.... if it's fresh... which is my point.

-As shiek.. I don't feel outmacthed by ROB... until I try to seal the deal with a KO... which was kinda my point.

I'd like the opinion of other Zelda/Shiek mains here (Not zelda OR shiek... yo gotta do both.)



@ Raphael.

Oh dear God don't rely on this matchup chart for info on mathcups... it should be the other way around, the chart relying on info fro individual matchups...

anyway, I'll say that, marth give me more trouble, and consistently so, than any earthbounder ever did. With Lucas or Ness, I feel that I have to chnge up my strategies a bit, but that the battle still won't be especially tough... Marth, on the other hand, I brace myseld for that one... no way that the earthbounders are as hard a mtchup as marth.

Marth and G&W beat zelda for the same reasons:
-They can kill her at lowish damages
-they can cut right through her defense game (game and watch and Marth both have bairs and fairs that co right through zelda's smashes.)

 

[Brinzy]

I'm not relying on that. I'm relying on the match-ups, and as I said before, from what I read on the Marth section, it's 6:4. I can see where the 6:4 comes from most: aerial priority and range. This is the same thing that Ness has, except trade the speed for projectiles.

Actually, instead of discussing it all the time, would you rather play your Zelda vs. my Ness? I have never played another Zelda in Brawl, and I just want to see how the match would go.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I'm not relying on that. I'm relying on the match-ups, and as I said before, from what I read on the Marth section, it's 6:4. I can see where the 6:4 comes from most: aerial priority and range. This is the same thing that Ness has, except trade the speed for projectiles.

Actually, instead of discussing it all the time, would you rather play your Zelda vs. my Ness? I have never played another Zelda in Brawl, and I just want to see how the match would go.

I would love too... but right now my wii is in the shop until about mid next week D:

and once I get it back... I can't promise that my wireless router will behave.. because it likes torandomly suck... but, if you have AIM, I can just contact you once I'm all set up again?

(besides... this might not prove anything depending on the lag and or our relative skills... I haven't played many nesses for example, so assuming you've played a lot of zelda's you'd have an advantage... but If I were better on the whole and won that wouldn't mean anything either... but, of course, you know this already)

 

[Brinzy]

Ah, no worries. I think my AIM is in my profile, or it will be. I haven't played *any* Brawl Zeldas, unless they were like random WiFi matches, so I could only speculate from what my own weaknesses were with Zelda. The main thing I'd want to get out of this is to see how you, or anyone for that matter, would face Ness with Zelda.

 

[_Mar_]

I have one quick question. Where do you get the info for this chart do you do a cpu vs cpu battle or real life people?

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Quick question:

How does Zelda outcamp ROB when she cant even use Dins Fire without getting hit with his laser?
deterring the use of projectiles is definitely not the same as out camping them.
ROB will never lose a camp war. Ever.


Just pointing out a flaw that I noticed. What you should be focusing is who wins closer up.
If ROB wins there, then he wins this matchup..
Just my input.

AND IM SORRY to those I've yet to reply to yet.
I still have Wario v Yoshi, though thats very stagnant (the infinite is crazy, so Ivan needs to practice that out, remember hold shield and regrab), and Lucario v G&W.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Quick question:

How does Zelda outcamp ROB when she cant even use Dins Fire without getting hit with his laser?
deterring the use of projectiles is definitely not the same as out camping them.
ROB will never lose a camp war. Ever.


Just pointing out a flaw that I noticed. What you should be focusing is who wins closer up.
If ROB wins there, then he wins this matchup..
Just my input.

AND IM SORRY to those I've yet to reply to yet.
I still have Wario v Yoshi, though thats very stagnant (the infinite is crazy, so Ivan needs to practice that out, remember hold shield and regrab), and Lucario v G&W.

since both of Rob's projectiles require charging, he can't spam then vs. dins... and he can't reflect dins, Zelda can use both of his projectiles against him.

Rob doesn't beat zelda up close BTW.

 

[Doggalina]

The old Falcon match-up thread hasn't been updated in a while, although things are still being discussed there. There is a new one here, although the categorization of match-ups there is based off this chart.

 

[Schwad]

ROFL at Yoshi because sadly, it's true.

 

[DanGR]

I play against shiek and zelda regularly with Rob. I think Rob>Zelda and Rob=sheik(b/c of ko issue, otherwise Sheik>Rob) and sheik+zelda>rob. Sheik's only approach that she really only has to do is SHnair>jab. Rob has no counter to it.

 

[DanGR]

you're dumb if you think zelda outcamps rob.

this is not a double post. this doesn't exist.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

you are wrong about rob>zelda zelda can easly reflect his projectiles and she does beat him up close. also since ROB's major problem is he has trouble killing (most of his strong moves are slow) zelda's weight does not hurt her. Also he is big and is not hard to hit with lightning kicks. all that rob has is better edge garding but thats just not enough. Also if you think i am being bias i would like to point out that over swarm in i think overswarm gives rob knowledge thread says that zelda beats rob

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

you're dumb if you think zelda outcamps rob.

this is not a double post. this doesn't exist.

It was the ROB main that said that... not me... I just gave a reason it might be the case.

 

[DanGR]

I'm not pointing out anyone. I'm just saying that Zelda's projectile should be outcamped by everyone else's projectile except DDD's, and if you don't think that's right, then you don't play against zelda as much as you should.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

ok kinda off topic but i feel i made some good points in my last post but it might over looked since it was at the end of the last page (i hate when that happens).

 

[DanGR]

found it.

you are wrong about rob>zelda zelda can easly reflect his projectiles and she does beat him up close.

Rob's projectiles are very fast and very hard to time. Gyro won't be reflected very often anyways. I don't think she beats him up close, but i digress.

also since ROB's major problem is he has trouble killing (most of his strong moves are slow) zelda's weight does not hurt her.

Winnie the pooh says PHAIL!!! Rob has almost the easiest time of any character killing in the game. His smashes are VERY fast and he's the best at gimp killing of any character in the game.

Also he is big and is not hard to hit with lightning kicks

true

all that rob has is better edge garding but thats just not enough

It's phenomenal and I score most of my kills from edgeguarding.

Also if you think i am being bias i would like to point out that over swarm in i think overswarm gives rob knowledge thread says that zelda beats rob

I don't care what he says. He's an ignorant elitist that happens to be a very good rob player. His opinion doesn't carry any weight in my mind.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Here you go ^_^

you are wrong about rob>zelda zelda can easly reflect his projectiles and she does beat him up close. also since ROB's major problem is he has trouble killing (most of his strong moves are slow) zelda's weight does not hurt her. Also he is big and is not hard to hit with lightning kicks. all that rob has is better edge garding but thats just not enough. Also if you think i am being bias i would like to point out that over swarm in i think overswarm gives rob knowledge thread says that zelda beats rob

Anyway... yeah... that's probaly close to true... so, in that way, yes I'd say zelda outcamps ROB... it's not like you should assume that Zelda and ROB use a projectile at the exact same time and see which one wins the exchange. The fact is, if ROB uses a projectile from a distance, Zelda can reflect it easily. If Zelda uses her Din's for a distance, ROB can dodge it (if he's not recovering) or he can use his own projectile against it, but if he uses his own projectile, they'll both get hit and ROB will come out the one worse for the wear... Even though ROB's projectile game looks like it should beat zelda's... there are reasons that Zelda might be able to out camp him.

As for Zelda > ROB... your points are valid... but Zelda has an even harder time killing ROB than ROB does zelda (like... not until >150% damage unless she gets lucky)

But, I think there's absolutely no dissagreement in that Zelda+Shiek > ROB

found it.
Winnie the pooh says PHAIL!!! Rob has almost the easiest time of any character killing in the game. His smashes are VERY fast and he's the best at gimp killing of any character in the game.

NOt even ROB mains would agree with you here... one of ROB's greatest weaknesses is the lagginess of his kill moves. His DSmash is REALLY fast.... but it's also not a kill move. His Fsmash and Usmash are NOT fast at all. The reason ROB is ranked high is because of how hard he is to kill, his projectiles, his edgeguarding/WOP abilities and his *****in' recovery above all. his kill ability w/o edgeguarding is rather meh.

It's phenomenal and I score most of my kills from edgeguarding.

Zelda's FW is VERY hard to edgeguard in that she can slip past you easier than any other chaarcter (being the only one who can teleport) It's easily punishable, but not easily edgeguardable.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

first off i have to say as someone who is working with rob to make him my secondary he has a hard time killing period. 2nd as a zelda who has played a few robs in my day i usaly wait for the rob to use his laser and refelct it i don't even use din's that much on him i ether wait to se him make his move and refelct it or i wait for him to come at me. i have reflected many gyros but it is true that those are harder to reflect. more later i g2g

 

[da K.I.D.]

f

I don't care what he says. He's an ignorant elitist that happens to be a very good rob player. His opinion doesn't carry any weight in my mind.

His attitude has no factoring in this equation. if you even admit hes a really good player, maybe you should take his word for it

 

[adumbrodeus]

His attitude has no factoring in this equation. if you even admit hes a really good player, maybe you should take his word for it

That's an appeal to authority logical fallacy, just because he's a good Rob player doesn't mean his opinions on ROB are automatically perfect.

It does however, make it more likely that his opinions on ROB are more well-informed then the average ROB player.

So no, don't take his word for it, it's not the law of the universe, but it IS a far better reference then any of ours, and I'm sure that he would be inclined to defend it.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Adumbrodeus is right... Being better means that you should have a better understanding of the character you play, but it doesn't necesarily make you unbiased.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

"ROB mains admit to having trouble with Zelda because she honestly does outcamp him"

You definitely said that bit.
and you're dead wrong.
Din's fire is incredibly punishable as it travels, giving ample time to fire his own blast. His blast DOES NOT have to be fully charged. It charges incredibly fast, so ROB will almost always have a laser. When Zelda gets hit, the fire won't detonate, meaning they will not trade projectile hits; Only Zelda will get hurt. If you don't think this is true, then you underestimate the speed.

Now, it's incredibly stupid for any ROB main to just fire lasers for you to reflect left and right. The fact is, ROB doesn't need to fire, though he can fire and not get punished if he launches it as he's in the air and he aims down (because by the time it reflects, ROB is already below the point of return). Zelda's Din' Fire is useless because he can interrupt it. The laser is NOT useless because ROB's don't waste their lasers from across the stage. What they like to do is shoot you while you're off the stage. Zelda is a prime target for getting lasered because of the startup on FW, and the fully charged laser will drag her much further out, giving him time to ledgehog.

Now, their projectiles from far away comes to a stalemate, but if they plan to camp, ROB will win. ROB will win. ROB will win. Zelda can't camp him, while ROB can barely camp her.

for the most part, ROB's projectiles are much better in this matchup than the Din's Fire.
I didn't even mention the gyro's use, but oh well.
I'm going to reiterate:

The main issue of this matchup is not long range, where ROB has the better, it's short range. Focus on who cas better damaging moves, range, and killing options to find who wins this matchup.

oh, and no disagreement on Shiek and Zelda?
Check a page back and somebody mentioned how stupid that is.
Sheik gets wrecked, so racking up damage with her is largely ineffective.
Zelda is better at dealing damage, but this is bad for her killing options.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

"ROB mains admit to having trouble with Zelda because she honestly does outcamp him"

... When Zelda gets hit, the fire won't detonate...

...though he can fire and not get punished if he launches it as he's in the air and he aims down..

Zelda's Din' Fire is useless because he can interrupt it.

...What they like to do is shoot you while you're off the stage...

well..that's because that's what the ones coming into this thread are saying

.. yes it will... it always has <_<

that's not camping then

... see previousl mentioned comment about, it'll still explode

... see previously mentioned comment about, that's not camping then... and Zelda's Din's is also fantastic against ROB off the stage... what's your point?

 

[Mr. Escalator]

-You should be able to think of your own stuff instead of adopting a stance from another
-No, if you're hit while aiming the fire, it will keep moving off in a direction and not explode.
-He still wins camp wars.
-No
-No, Laser is better offstage as I noted because of the startup time on FW. ROB can cancel his up B into an airdodge or laser Zelda, so he's largely unaffected by Din's Fire.

 

[Fogo]

good job on this ^_^


*subscribing*

 

[Fear The Force]

ROB > zelda in terms of fighting; in fact, I THINK ROB is the best character in the game...but that is just me. Understand that this topic is based on disadvantages of the character vs. another character.

Just because ROB has disadvantages vs. zelda does NOT mean that ROB can't beat zelda.

As for sheik, I played a very good sheik player who comboed me, but couldn't win. Why? Rob can easily gimp shiek, and if shiek is trying to gimp ROB, ROB can just go to the other side of the stage to avoid any damage, and recover safely. This is why ROB has advantage over sheik.

Yes, ROB can shoot a laser at zelda when she is doing din's fire, but what GOOD zelda actually spams din's fire like that so you can hit her with a laser?

C'mon, be serious guys; zelda will easily blast ROB away from her with her strong moveset, then use din's fire to TRY to juggle ROB and accumulate more damage. I smart zelda player isn't going to sit there and let herself be hit by lasers; that player is going to TRY TO PREDICT when to counter your laser against you with nayru's love.

As for picking shiek first, then turning into zelda later in the match, THIS IS A BIG NO NO. Why? I'll tell you; shiek's needles are nullied by ROB's gyro. Shiek has to try to side-dodge an d get inside to atk ROB; naturally, most ROB players are defensive, and are waiting for this to happen, just to blast him back. If he tries to go into the air, he'll get hit by a fair. He can sidedodge it, but that will just lead into the other things.

I'll give sheik props tho, sheik is really good at annoying a player off stage when sheik is on the ledge.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

what good shiek is going to fire needles into a gyro? Needls are REALLY fast.... faster than ROB's projectiles.

-No, if you're hit while aiming the fire, it will keep moving off in a direction and not explode.

FAIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


seriously.... your argument fails becuase you are.... um WRONG!!!!

 

[Fear The Force]

shiek could be charging up his needles and rob shoots his gyro out, it lands, and shiek shoots his needles; what's the problem?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

shiek could be charging up his needles and rob shoots his gyro out, it lands, and shiek shoots his needles; what's the problem?

Shiek doesn't charge and throw... shiek charges and THEN throws.. I.E. if shiek is charging and you gyro, shiek will shield and then just fire the needles afterward... they hold a charge, just like the gyro, but the get released and travel faster than ROB can react to them.

For shiek to do what you are saying, shiek would have to be an idiot.

 

[GI Josh]

I don't really see why MK has a disadvantage under DK.......

 

[Fear The Force]

Shiek doesn't charge and throw... shiek charges and THEN throws.. I.E. if shiek is charging and you gyro, shiek will shield and then just fire the needles afterward... they hold a charge, just like the gyro, but the get released and travel faster than ROB can react to them.

For shiek to do what you are saying, shiek would have to be an idiot.

thatz not the point I was trying to make; if you're going to shoot needles at me, I'll just shoot a gyro on the ground to block your needles out.

DK has high knockback moves that easily kill Mk since he's the fifth lightest character in the game.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

thatz not the point I was trying to make; if you're going to shoot needles at me, I'll just shoot a gyro on the ground to block your needles out.

DK has high knockback moves that easily kill Mk since he's the fifth lightest character in the game.

point is, if I decide to shoot needles, you can't get the gyro out fast enough. there's very little startup lag on the needles and they travel very fast.

especially if you've recently fired the gyro, you won't even have one charged.

shiek has no trouble battling ROB... it's just the KOing of rob that provides a problem