Brawl+ 5.0 RC1 Tactical Discussion Thread

[CloneHat]

Both Din's fire and PK freeze can be used for recovering, can't they?

 

[GHNeko]

Uh. Not PK Freeze. wtf.

Din's fire can be, but the boost is really negligible imo. It'd be better used to you know, protect yourself from approaching opponents so you can warp onto stage with your near lagless up B that has an attack hitbox upon re-entrance that has enough shield stun and KB to avoid punishment unless your opponent has a counter. >_>

 

[Plum]

Both Din's fire and PK freeze can be used for recovering, can't they?

If you like the idea of leaving yourself completely open while a massively predicable/overall poor, mediocre at best, projectile does very little to protect you.

I mean yeah, technically you could, but do those characters' recoveries even need any help? Player's fault is player's fault.

That's my stance at least as far as no freefall on them go.

 

[stingers]

getting in the wbr doesn't mean you know what you're talking about lol

the majority of them are smart but LOL

 

[Revven]

I've never had issues with gliding on analog in like almost a year because since Brawl release up until 1 month ago, I never jumped with a jump button and I always used analog to jump, and because I played with Zard and MK in friendlies, I had to learn how to properly use my analog with gliding characters.

I dont have issues with it now and I havnt accidentally glided in months simply because I know what I'm doing with my stick. The manipulation is second nature. And I'm not even a spectacular player. SO I know its more than possible which is I think failure of manipulation in the player.

It's sloppy design though, it shouldn't be "ROTATE THE STICK TO GLIDE" it should either be "HOLD BACK FOR 2 SECONDS TO GLIDE" or "TURN TAP JUMP ON TO USE THE STICK TO GLIDE". When you're someone like MK, you have no trouble with this, OF COURSE because he's MK and doesn't rely that heavily on spacing his aerials (because they all ****... except Bair, Bair isn't THAT amazing). But, when you play Charizard, he needs to space his aerials, and if gliding gets in the way of that, that's a problem. You can't go and ignore it like you are and say that "OH LOLOL I NEVER HAVE THIS ISSUE THEREFORE IT'S NOT A PROBLEM AT ALL. IT'S YOUR PROBLEM." because it's the way the controls were designed, designed to be TOO sensitive in areas where they shouldn't be (joystick recognition) or not AS sensitive as they should be (L/R buttons).

As it is, we have control over the buffer, which previously (for some) gave hardly any actual control to the player's actions. Are you just going to say that the gliding on joystick is a player related issue? (Which you have) In which case, you may as well call buffering the same **** thing because you CAN get used to the buffering and you CAN "avoid" those situations in which buffering may take control from you. Does that mean that buffering isn't an issue? That there is no error at all with the buffering system? No. The buffering system is bad, at least, at 10 frames.

Then you're going to argue me on that point with "but buffering is a player preference" well, so is the gliding. Players are allowed control over the buffering, the same should be for this rotational gliding BS. I do not care if you purposefully trained your Charizard to never rotate glide when you don't want to, the fact that the error is present and can happen is an issue itself.

As for the Lucas thing, Matt, that isn't an actual GAMEPLAY MECHANIC that GETS IN THE WAY of something a character CRUCIALLY needs to do. Lucas doesn't need to B-stick to do well, it is entirely an option. Charizard rotational gliding? Gliding is an actual mechanic and this thing here gets in the way of something Charizard needs to do for the majority of the time when he tries to do an aerial (except Uair of course). Lucas B-stick? Does it really impose Lucas on doing an approach? Does it really hurt him like rotational gliding gets in the way for Charizard? I don't think it does, the rotational gliding takes no timing at all, B-sticking does. There needs to be error for B-sticking, and if there is no error for doing it wrong (while you were intending to do it, which btw, Charizard is also NOT intending to glide) then there is no risk factor to doing it. With that said, are you suggesting that Charizard should keep this risk factor all for the sake of some players liking rotational gliding? It's a bad comparison, period Matt.

It shouldn't be all reward and no risk, there should be some skill to it Matt, and asking for "LOLOL PK FREEZE NO FREEFALL PLZ BCUZ ZELDA GOT NO FREEFAL ON DIN'S AND BCUZ ROTATIONAL GLIDING MAY BE TAKEN AWAY AND BOTH OF THOSE R 'HUMAN ERROR'" doesn't help anyone here except for making a skill easier and less riskier for a character who has already received more than enough **** to do well in tournament matches. And, don't carry this on with me further by making comparisons with Zelda or some other "crazily buffed" character because Lucas already got his ****. Furthermore, you would be removing all the risk there is to B-sticking with Lucas while everyone else who uses B-sticking would STILL have that same amount of risk in doing it if not more, why should Lucas get special treatment? Exactly.

That's all I wanted to say, off to do some other stuff.

 

[stingers]

mks fair isnt amazing either, its def. punishable

 

[Mattnumbers]

Falco that was the worst rant I've ever heard you say. You have fallen behind your standard.

Just a sec I wanted to say that before I quote it and go through it piece by piece

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Falco, stooping down to your opponent's level is never a good way to get rid of them. It just makes them have a better chance of besting you in an argument. Which, you being a high-up WBR member in my knowledge, is not a good thing.

(I'm not saying I'm good at arguing at all. I suck at arguing.)

 

[CloneHat]

I think he made good points!

He was just really pissed.

 

[bleyva]

Lucas already got his ****. Furthermore, you would be removing all the risk there is to B-sticking with Lucas while everyone else who uses B-sticking would STILL have that same amount of risk in doing it if not more, why should Lucas get special treatment? Exactly.

entertaining post is entertaining.

i particularly enjoyed the preemptive "Exactly", as to imply that any retort inevitably fails.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Ok, first of all:

getting in the wbr doesn't mean you know what you're talking about lol

the majority of them are smart but LOL

I never said it was a conclusive proof. The reason I said that is because I know Veril to be an intelligent guy. The fact that you made it into the WBR is at least evidence that you know what your talking about.

Ok I'll skip the parts said to Stingers, as I agree that it is bad design (although some of your points don't make sense to me).

As for the Lucas thing, Matt, that isn't an actual GAMEPLAY MECHANIC that GETS IN THE WAY of something a character CRUCIALLY needs to do. Lucas doesn't need to B-stick to do well, it is entirely an option.

First of all, technically charizard CAN do anything he can do with gliding without gliding. Second, if a mechanic is bad, it doesn't matter how much something is used, its a bad base mechanic and should be fixed.

Charizard rotational gliding? Gliding is an actual mechanic and this thing here gets in the way of something Charizard needs to do for the majority of the time when he tries to do an aerial (except Uair of course). Lucas B-stick? Does it really impose Lucas on doing an approach? Does it really hurt him like rotational gliding gets in the way for Charizard?

I play both Lucas and Charizard and I will say that rotational glide very rarely gets in my way at all. It happens occasionally in friendlies when I'm just ******* around. So no, it does not pose a huge threat against Charizard.
It doesn't matter if its a crucial situation anyways, it's not like we can only make X changes total (with X being a relatively small number). If a mechanic is dumb there is no reason we shouldn't change it.
Also, there are a select few things that can only be done with B-sticking, and while they don't affect that much, they still exist.

I don't think it does, the rotational gliding takes no timing at all, B-sticking does. There needs to be error for B-sticking, and if there is no error for doing it wrong (while you were intending to do it, which btw, Charizard is also NOT intending to glide) then there is no risk factor to doing it.

First of all.....B-sticking does not require timing, you can use it any time you would use a special. This makes me question your understanding of the way that B-sticking works.
The error for B-sticking wrong is DOING THE WRONG MOVE. should you get hurt any time you use an aerial the misses the opponent? no! the penalty was the fact that you missed in the first place. Geez, now you have me overusing caps and bold as well.

With that said, are you suggesting that Charizard should keep this risk factor all for the sake of some players liking rotational gliding? It's a bad comparison, period Matt.

I'm not sure where you got that first thing from, and it is an entirely relevant comparison

It shouldn't be all reward and no risk, there should be some skill to it Matt, and asking for "LOLOL PK FREEZE NO FREEFALL PLZ BCUZ ZELDA GOT NO FREEFAL ON DIN'S AND BCUZ ROTATIONAL GLIDING MAY BE TAKEN AWAY AND BOTH OF THOSE R 'HUMAN ERROR'" doesn't help anyone here except for making a skill easier and less riskier for a character who has already received more than enough **** to do well in tournament matches.

Shame on you for using name calling in an argument, that is extremely poor debating.

I see PK Freeze being used with the C-stick as being relevant to rotational gliding, and I also see Dins fire being relevant to removing freefall from PK Freeze, as they are similar(ish) moves. I fail to see how you DON'T see the connection.
As for the reward/risk stuff, I'm not sure what your trying to say. Unless your stating that messing up B-sticking has no punishment if you don't go into freefall after PK Freeze, which is ridiculous. And as for the "It makes the game easier" argument, the exact same thing can be said for rotational gliding. I would even say that precisely because of what YOU said earlier

Charizard needs to do for the majority of the time when he tries to do an aerial........ Lucas B-stick? Does it really impose Lucas on doing an approach? Does it really hurt him like rotational gliding gets in the way for Charizard?

Because Charizard apparently suffers a lot more from rotational gliding, wouldn't that mean that removing it would make a much bigger difference in the ease of playing him? If B-sticking is so non-important that we should just ignore it, does it really make a difference if we make it slightly less annoying?

And, don't carry this on with me further by making comparisons with Zelda or some other "crazily buffed" character because Lucas already got his ****.

If you had ever actually listened to my points you would know that I don't believe Zelda to be OP, I just think that if you are trying to buff her until she is as good as sheik it will end in an OP combination of the two. Please do not respond to this because that's not the argument at hand. Also I'm detecting just a smidge of bias there Falco

Furthermore, you would be removing all the risk there is to B-sticking with Lucas while everyone else who uses B-sticking would STILL have that same amount of risk in doing it if not more, why should Lucas get special treatment? Exactly.

Again, the risk of B-sticking is inherent on itself: If you use it at the wrong time you can get punished in some way or have something else happen. Making it so you don't have to worry about using PK Freeze offstage and SDing doesn't exactly effect the way I play the character. Also I don't see where you are going with this "risk" argument. Again, I think you misunderstand B-sticking. And no, I think that if any other characters had a similarly annoying but non-important problem I would not care if they got it. You support removing/reducing the window for rotational glide do you not?


Finally, what is all the anger for? Come on, be civil.

U mad?

EDIT: Don't freak out those last two words are a joke.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

I'm on kupo's side here. I think gliding should have a slight shorter window that you can initiate the glide in. Just because I feel that the window is too big right now. And it's PSA changeable: there is an attribute that decides the window for gliding.

PSA Attribue *0x08C: Glide Frame Window

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Falco, please don't respond angrily. If you do, make sure you make your points well said....


please don't lace it with profanity either. That doesn't really do anything except make your post four characters longer.

(Please don't flame me, I just hate it when people fight)

EDIT: I'll try out smaller glide frame windows. I'm trying 75% normal window. So metaknight's would go from 16 frames to 12 frames. Although I can't edit Charizard...

 

[Revven]

I wasn't angry. Caps = emphasis.

Didn't really want to get in on the argument mostly because admittedly, I don't B-stick so I don't know the full ins and outs of it other than it helps Lucas recover.

 

[Mattnumbers]

I wasn't angry. Caps = emphasis.

Didn't really want to get in on the argument mostly because admittedly, I don't B-stick so I don't know the full ins and outs of it other than it helps Lucas recover.

Actually that's not even its main use, most of the time I just use B to zap jump. Although B-sticking it can help if you do it backwards and then magnet pull.

 

[Alphatron]

I mained Meta Knight for nearly 5 months after this game came out and I have always used tap jump. Not ONCE, have a I ever went into a glide when trying to space my opponent, nor do I rotate the control stick when spacing in the air. On occasion, I have glided in the wrong direction due to turning the wrong way when rotating the stick. But this happens to me no longer.

Plus, I'm bitter. The tap jump users were already shafted with DJC. Get over it and stop bawing. >__>;;

Remove fall special from gliding on the last jump
All glides result in loss of all jumps

This way you can still act out of a glide but you can't jump

I'd agree with this 100% if it weren't for shuttle loop and also the fact that this is an indirect buff to glides. Normally, people avoid gliding on the last jump. With this, people with just glide without risk on the last one. I like your first idea though.

 

[stingers]

i didnt even know you could glide with the control stick. idk how bad you guys must be that it happens to you so frequently

 

[Dantarion]

Although I can't edit Charizard...

PSAMod. You can edit charizard. I did that. On the same day as PW released PSA 1.3

 

[leafgreen386]

So I heard this was the thread where we all insult each others' skill for no good reason while arguing about stuff that's mostly insignificant.

 

[Mattnumbers]

So I heard this was the thread where we all insult each others' skill for no good reason while arguing about stuff that's mostly insignificant.

I defended myself about stuff that's mostly insignificant am I cool now?

 

[kupo15]

If you want to make harder to do or shorten the window span or what. Go ahead, but removing it as per CK's initial suggestion is a big ****ing no.

Then go ahead and make the input less sensitive.

All I want to say is that I still think Lucas shouldn't go into Freefall after PK Freeze, especially since Zelda got Freefall removed from her Dins Fire. PK Freeze has a fairly large wavebounce. And I know that multiple people support this idea including Veril (who is in the WBR for those of you who don't know who he is).

I don't agree with Zelda's buff either. Just saying

But if Gliding with the stick gets a lower window or removed, So should using neutral B's with the C-stick. They are the same Design, and if one is poor the other is also poor.

Yea, I agree as well. You shouldn't be able to do neutral specials/tilts with the cstick because pressing B/A for Jabs/N Special does the same exact thing as the cstick does for smashes. But seeing how you can glitch the game with Bsticking, that presents a problem with removing that function.

PSA Attribue *0x08C: Glide Frame Window

Oh look here, a way to make it less sensitive.

I'd agree with this 100% if it weren't for shuttle loop and also the fact that this is an indirect buff to glides. Normally, people avoid gliding on the last jump. With this, people with just glide without risk on the last one. I like your first idea though.

Two things:
-What does the shuttle loop have to do with anything? It won't be affected
-The reason I proposed the first point about removing fall special is because I assumed that if you didn't and just made gliding go to the last jump, that it would end up putting you in fall special no matter what. If this is not true, then by all means, keep the fall special on the last jump

I do think that glides should be more "balanced" but people think my first idea in which we have the code for was too extreme which is why I suggested another alternative.

So I heard this was the thread where we all insult each others' skill for no good reason while arguing about stuff that's mostly insignificant.

Polishing up the game controls and stuff no matter how small is never insignificant, leaf.

 

[iLink]

I was being my usual lulzy self and playing against a computer. I was using falco against a yoshi. At one point, I'm not quite sure what I did but I hit him and he started to slide all over the stage on his belly in what might have been his special fall animation.

Wtf? I'll upload the vid in a bit.

 

[thesage]

Fox's side b shouldn't go into freefall since I accidentally do it off the ledge instead of shining all the time.

 

[Thunderhorse+]

i didnt even know you could glide with the control stick. idk how bad you guys must be that it happens to you so frequently

seconding.

wtf guys, and I use Charizard.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Fox's side b shouldn't go into freefall since I accidentally do it off the ledge instead of shining all the time.

Not the same thing. For one thing, doing that would actually improve many things about fox. For another, Side B and Down B do not have stupidly placed windows, they are actually pretty big and easy to distinguish. This is not so for Neutral B's with the B-stick.

You see, I just see making PK Freeze not go into Freefall as such a tiny, nonbuffing change that I don't think it would do anything besides avoid a rare death. It's not like you can use PK Freeze at all anyways. And anyways, I would much rather just make it so that you can't B-stick neutrals, as I'm assuming you can get the same results from b-reversing them manually, and having such a dumb sized window can be annoying.

 

[camelot]

Stuff

I think he was being sarcastic.

 

[Shadic]

So I heard this was the thread where we all insult each others' skill for no good reason while arguing about stuff that's mostly insignificant.

Polishing up the game controls and stuff no matter how small is never insignificant, leaf.

Pay more attention to the first part. I'm near certain I've seen you partake in it, but I could be mistaken.

So for all you WBRoomers - Any chance we could at least get a stage patch, for like, Skyworld?

 

[iLink]

^ I second that. Oh and some Onett would be pretty cool.

 

[GHNeko]

Stages are next build. You guys can wait. >_>

I'm not even done with flat zone 2. Lol.

I'm using my can of Walk-Off-B Gone but its not working properly. e__e

 

[Mattnumbers]

No, you guys should patch in stage changes. You're collecting character data not stage data.

 

[GHNeko]

Why release a few stages now, rather than all the stages at once in addition to a new build?

<_<

 

[RPGsFTW]

Are these "patch" builds you guys are talking about planned to come out anytime soon? Or would it be many months like the next Nightly.

I'd like to try the stages, along with no more auto jabs. =]

 

[Shadic]

Why release a few stages now, rather than all the stages at once in addition to a new build?

<_<

So we have greater stage selection? It doesn't influence character balance at all, and looks to be a great neutral.

 

[GHNeko]

meh. I would rather you guys actually wait. It's not important to release the stages as some sort of patch. You guys are gonna have a greater stage selection next build anyways. Focus on what you guys have now.

 

[Shadic]

Screw that.

Dant (<3) should just put out the code so we can shove it into our games without your WBRers being all *******y and keeping it from us. >8(

 

[monkeyx4]

Any by chance yall could get the old melee lvl's back like kirby dream land or something similar and put the song on it?

 

[Dantarion]

After I rework my codes to just my new method of stage detection, Ill release them.
Heres what I plan to release so far.
[Skyworld Platform Modifer]
[Skyworld Platforms Never Respawn]
[Skyworld for Brawl+]
[Pokemon Stadium 1 Transformation Timer Mod]
[GHNeko Stage, once the boundaries and camera are fixed.]

 

[CountKaiser]

*Is still praying for a legit PTAD*

 

[Dantarion]

Its hard to reduce knockback, I might see if I can just lock it to a section without the cars for now.

 

[CountKaiser]

Hard to reduce KB?

But you're Dantarion! lol

But I understand. Why not try doing what was once done to Mario Circuit and simple remove the cars? Is that even possible?