Data Bowser's Moveset Data & Discussion

[Cassius.]

dash klaw is probably the only thing I would really bother with. I still find up-b oos worth it, and i wouldn't tamper with bowser bomb either.

not a fan of the fireball anymore after losing games due to not having fire right in front of my mouth

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

dash klaw is probably the only thing I would really bother with. I still find up-b oos worth it, and i wouldn't tamper with bowser bomb either.

not a fan of the fireball anymore after losing games due to not having fire right in front of my mouth

Agreed. I just finished a bunch of matches against a friend that mains Rosalina. Up b is one of my most consistent punishes against her and Luma. I don't think I'd be able to win against them without it. Default firebreath can stop half-assed luma strategies in their tracks, and I find great value in that.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

That's just the autoguard on Bowser's shell being silly. Usmash was always that big, but the autoguard makes everything really bonkers.

Basically if a move hits a part of Bowser's body that has autoguard (his shell) and a part of his body that doesn't at the same time, the game says "**** it" and treats the entire move as getting autoguarded.

This seems to be the same property as Palutena's Shield attacks.

Lmao. I started an entire discussion about Uair and I meant to say UTilt. GG Guys. GG

I actually like the new Uair, to be honest. Like Utilt too. I sure do miss the old Forward Smash tho.

Utilt has no hitboxes in front of it

 

[keronshb]

Utilt's fun as a mixup. People behind you will get confused when it hits them.

 

[Mr. Bones]

This seems to be the same property as Palutena's Shield attacks.


Utilt has no hitboxes in front of it

It can still hit if they're tall characters.

But yeah, shorties can just be in front of you and not give a **** about Utilt. But it's a nice away to cover behind/above you if you think someone's gonna try an aerial cross-up on you.

 

[Flayl]

Instantly pivoting from a dash into a FTilt is funny. Hopefully it's useful too, anybody have any feelings on it?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

If I pivot ftilt, I probably meant to grab instead

But it's good, I don't think I've been punished for using it yet

 

[Jerodak]

Hey guys, so it looks like we can confirm grounded footstool into Dair. I found this out while just playing around in training mode and I noticed that the level 9 CPU which will pretty much always counter you perfectly when you attack it in neutral, didn't do anything about footstool to Dair. I even set the computer to run and also tested with slow motion. The footstool animation appears to last long enough for Dair to hit. Now I've only tested with peach, so it may be possible that shorter characters are able to escape but I don't imagine that anyone would have a shorter footstool animation than anyone else so that may not be a factor. I can certainly test that though.

Bowser bomb on the other hand, while too slow to get a guaranteed hit, I have yet to see the CPU do anything other than shield it after using it off of footstool, so this might possibly be a shield breaker set-up. However, I'd like to test that a bit more as well, it may be a legit shield buster set-up or it could just be faulty A.I, there's also the fact that often when I managed to get the bomb to hit shield, it wouldn't do much damage on the first hit but I did get the shield to pop a few times as well. It'd be great if I could test this locally vs other players but I can only test vs players online.

Oh and Bowser bomb seems to still be guaranteed off of an aerial footstool but it's possible for them to DI away from you it seems.

Edit: Just tested all of these off on a pretty decent connection; each of these were tested on Peach.

Footstool to Dair: This appears to be legit, my friend held shield after being footstooled and still got hit every time; once I even got the spike hit to land.

Footstool to Bowser bomb: Unfortunately, this is not guaranteed to work, the CPU was just being super derp, it appears that you can indeed roll or spotdodge out of footstool, however I still think it could be useful as a shield break set-up against a conditioned opponent or anyone that panic shields.

Air footstool to bomb: Still seems to work, as long as they don't DI away from it, which can be avoided by using the footstool's hard knockdown. Perhaps a possible punish to poorly spaced aerials from floaty characters with jump OOS. I could also see this as maybe some kind of silly counter to Yoshi parry attempts since they are committed to the jump but that might be approaching theorycraft.

Just keep in mind that the footstool animation does not happen while the character is still in their attack animation, or against peach while she's floating. It can also be avoided by using I-frames.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Dash Klaw is insane. Its endlag is cancelled if you land while doing Aerial Klaw, so you can combo out of SH Dash Klaw at low %s. I've had a number of things work, but SH Dash Klaw -> Utilt seems to be the most reliable. You can also do any number of crossups off of it, or do SH Dash Klaw -> Dash Klaw which can take you from one side of Battlefield to the other. Be aware that the aerial Dash Klaw won't hit grounded opponents if you do it at the apex of your shorthop, but will if you wait a bit.
Edit: I meant Dash Slash. Replace Dash Slash wherever it says Dash Klaw.

 

[Big-Cat]

So since I recognized it's going to take me a long *** time to play correctly on a 3ds, I've been doing some mild testing. I hope I can put a "setup" thread soon. Some things I can already tell you:

1. DThrow is completely useless in every way (it's still the funniest throw if that counts for anything).

I've used this more and it really isn't. Can you explain why?

 

[Flayl]

Anything DThrow does FThrow can do better

 

[Jerodak]

I would say that down throwing offstage is better than forward throwing in a few scenarios but basically when forward throw won't kill anyway and you don't want them to recover from too high, use down throw instead, it's also a good team wombo combo set-up throw because it seems to have more hitstun than forward and back throw while not sending them too far or too high, or making them fly too fast.

Now I'm saying it deals more hitstun because it recovers slower than Forward throw but the advantage you have out of it appears to be about the same. But in short when you're playing 1v1 use dthrow offstage to set-up your edge guard, and in teams use it for that and also for starting a wombo combo. You could also try using it in the Rosaluma match-up to hit luma with Dthrow's hitbox, I doubt that's something that's worth specifically looking for though.

Now, I would reiterate on how amazing Bowser's Dair is in this game, for those of you who aren't doing this already, it is definately worth learning how to safely spike with Bowser's Dair. Not only does it end matches very quickly, but the Dair dunk is extremely satisfying to land. I find that it's very easy to land on DK, but I've also been able to dunk Little Mac who is pretty small, but he's also not super hard to dunk because of his predictable recovery.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Liking Bowser a lot. It's pretty cool how Fair and Bair autocancel perfectly with his shorthop.

Any advice on using his Dair? The spike hitbox is pretty solid, but it's a shame that it crashes you down to the ground upon using it. Lots of lag

 

[Jerodak]

Liking Bowser a lot. It's pretty cool how Fair and Bair autocancel perfectly with his shorthop.

Any advice on using his Dair? The spike hitbox is pretty solid, but it's a shame that it crashes you down to the ground upon using it. Lots of lag

The best way to use Dair is when someone isn't grabbing the ledge and isn't recovering too high. A perfect example is DK trying to up b onto the stage or Little mac's haymaker into the stage. You'll want to stand right at the edge and time the Dair to hit just as they pass by where you're standing, it seems to spike through the entire hitbox, so you only need to clip them but it only spikes at the beginning of the attack, any later and it'll launch them, which isn't bad since it can K.O.

It's best to practice it on little mac since it makes the match-up incredibly simple, I've often killed mac before his punch could get online, and mac is easy to dunk so it can help with getting the timing down, DK is also easy to dunk because he's large and as long as you don't get hit by it, the spinning kong makes him pretty wide, and easier to dunk; most of my Dunks so far have been on DK.

The cool thing about this is that since you have to use it from the ledge anyway you can also set-up Down-B to the ledge in case they try to recovery to the ledge instead, which can set up a ledge trump to back air or other punish.

 

[MrEh]

I like Usmashing Little Mac while he's falling. If you time it right, the autoguard on your shell will even stop his counter.

Super funny when it works.

 

[Jerodak]

I like Usmashing Little Mac while he's falling. If you time it right, the autoguard on your shell will even stop his counter.

Super funny when it works.

If you're near the ledge it can also lead to a gimp which is also funny.

Oh by the way guys, for anyone that didn't know, if you block Charizard's Flare blitz then run up to Fsmash is gauranteed. So if you meet a spamy charizard just block it and punish. Also, you can Dair Flare blitz safely but the timing is a little tricky. You kinda need to Dair a bit early, and you should rise up above charizard as it passes by and spike it. I haven't done this in a match but I did test if Flare blitx could be spiked at all and it can.
Also, Dair can beat Little Mac's grounded up-B, it can also trade with it, in either case you can get the spike, so don't be afraid to try this when he's using it to recover, especially since the air version is less potent.

I tested both of these with my friend as well, In the case of Dair against the up-b it generally either traded or won, I beleive it was similar with Down B But it's improved priority seems to be stronger versus hitboxes that aren't attatched to anything like projectiles and Villager's Tree, it'll plow through it while it's being grown if you time it right; haven't tested with it being chopped down yet.

I'll let you guys know if I find anything else that seems interesting.

 

[Flayl]

So I tested DThrow and FThrow again on the ledge and the difference in trajectory is minimal. But if that's the dealbreaker for you get your BAir in, more power to you for using it

 

[Zigsta]

Anything DThrow does FThrow can do better

I find Bowser Bomb after dthrow easier to connect with than after fthrow.

Speaking of, more Bowsers need to use jab cancel Bowser Bomb! I'm using it more and more to break shields.

Also using a lot more full hop nair by the ledge to catch recovering opponents with a spike. Nairing a recovering opponent when they're over the ledge can also put them in hitstun long enough to dair spike them.

I'm also wondering if upair is still a frametrap. Maybe it's only on certain characters--needs more testing. But I've been baiting airdodges with upair and following with bair more often.

 

[MrEh]

Speaking of, more Bowsers need to use jab cancel Bowser Bomb! I'm using it more and more to break shields.

I do that a lot now too.

I have a nasty feeling that Jab 1 is actually + on hit, which is pretty ridiculous. I'll try and record with a friend and see exactly how advantageous it is. (if at all)

 

[Jerodak]

I got some fun facts for you!

Rising Fair can hit short characters now. I tested it on Kirby, who is the shortest in the game if i'm not mistaken, you have to space for the lowest part of the hitbox but it'll hit. So maybe rising Fair won't be almost useless for against short characters on the ground. Probably not a go-to move by any means, but at least it works. I'm going to do some testing with Fair because it appears we can use it for set-ups now; once I have all of the details down I'll post it in the set-up thread.

First hit of Bowser bombs hits opponents on the ledge.

It seems like we may be able to edgeguard with upsmash by using it against get-up ledge attacks. I'll do some more testing on this one.




Some information on Bowser's punish options!

Charizard's Flare Blitz can be punished on block with an Fsmash, however you will need to dash forward first then perform a full dash, not a fox trot, for a short distance forwards, return the stick to neutral to do a dash stop, then initiate your forward smash. The timing is a little tricky but it's completely doable. If you're dash attacking instead then you aren't holding the stick forward long enough to enter the run animation, and if the Fsmash hits get-up frames then you're either running for too long or not reacting quickly enough. If the Charizard was airborne during the side b, then you get a larger window depending on how high they were.

Dragon rush, one of the custom side B's can be punished on shield with a klaw if you drop your shield and start your dash the instant it finshes passing your shield; the strongest punish would be a Klaw. Unlike Flare blitz, being in the air seems to actually make this move safer. However, it's still punishable depending on height from the ground, number of hits on shield, and the spacing of the attack. It seemed to be the safest when the attack barely clipped the shield.

Greninja's Side B Can be Fsmashed OOS as soon as you block it, you can also Fsmash if it does it in the air near you and starts to land; the cooldown is horrible.

If you activate Greninja's substitute with Fortress, you will automatically win unless it attacks you from above, otherwise it'll get sucked into the remaining hits of Fortress.

Zelda's Bair can be Fsmashed OOS on block, the timing is a bit strict.

Zelda's Fair is a bit different, you can normally only Tilt, Klaw, or Grab it OOS. However, if you perfect shield it then it can be Fsmashed if you react immediately.

That's about all for now, I'll keep testing to see if I find anything else that seems interesting.

 

[warionumbah2]

Out of all the characters, Bowser is honestly a good counter to Rosalina.

I literally murderd the poor Luma suing Whirling fortress(Godly move) whenever they wanted to fire Luma at me. Even fully charged shots were counter by Bowsers spinning shell.

He's a monster i can actually cover his weaknesses unlike most characters, even against campers its all down to you and what you can do. Might main him i've been testing all characters and felt comfortable with Ganon,Bowser and Fox.

 

[BSL]

I find Bowser Bomb after dthrow easier to connect with than after fthrow.

Speaking of, more Bowsers need to use jab cancel Bowser Bomb! I'm using it more and more to break shields.

Also using a lot more full hop nair by the ledge to catch recovering opponents with a spike. Nairing a recovering opponent when they're over the ledge can also put them in hitstun long enough to dair spike them.

I'm also wondering if upair is still a frametrap. Maybe it's only on certain characters--needs more testing. But I've been baiting airdodges with upair and following with bair more often.

jab into bowser bomb is still my favorite setup. been looking forward to using it since you told me back in the summer, and it works very well, haha.

 

[Karsticles]

Dodge canceling is incredible for this dude. I went up to a 90% win ratio over my last 50 battles because of it. It completely destroys projectile characters.

 

[Jerodak]

Hey guys, just a heads up here, it appears that the dizzy state can be edge canceled. I got my shield broken in a for glory match and landed on the stage, going into dizzy like normal, but then as soon as my character stood up to start the dizzy animation, she just slipped off the ledge and it canceled immediately (I was using Palutena at the time.). The Falco player I was fighting was only standing there charging Fsmash, so he didn't hit me out of it or anything. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to save the replay because I had too many saved already.

I suppose just keep this in mind when breaking shields near the ledge and on stages with platforms like battlefield, I guess it could also be useful if by some chance your own shield get busted. We may want to do some testing on this to see exactly how it works, I'll look more into it later on and let you guys know what I find.

Edit: Nevermind, it seems like it was just sheer luck that it happened. Actually going for the edge cancel, if that's even what it was, is impossible without all the variables already being set up for you. Also, since I don't even have the footage, I can't even review it to be completely sure of what happened, so I guess we can just disregard this for now.

 

[Raiden mk-II]

Dodge canceling is incredible for this dude. I went up to a 90% win ratio over my last 50 battles because of it. It completely destroys projectile characters.

I'm still unfamiliar with a number of Smash terms. Can anyone explain how dodge canceling is performed? This can really improve my Bowser play, along with me mastering short-hop Forward Air and Back Air.

As Bowser, I usually punch or Fire Breath projectiles out of existence. Against duck hunt Dog players, I punch the cans, changing their direction towards DHD. One time, I killed a DHD by dropkicking a can into him hahaha.

 

[Jerodak]

As far as projectiles are concerned, do not underestimate running shield. The intervals at which Bowser can shield when running is pretty fast, it's fast enough to quickly gain ground on anyone just sitting there spamming. Just look out for the players that will try to grab or do something else when they see you approaching.

If you're close enough, you could try jumping over the projectile to punish the cooldown with an aerial or fire breath.

Also for anyone having problems with doing OOS fortress against attacks with large shield stun, when you do the input instead of pressing jump and B as quickly as possible, put a small delay between jump and B. This gives the shield stun some time to wear off so that it won't ignore the B input and just make you jump OOS; feel free to let me know how this works for you.

 

[Raiden mk-II]

As far as projectiles are concerned, do not underestimate running shield. The intervals at which Bowser can shield when running is pretty fast, it's fast enough to quickly gain ground on anyone just sitting there spamming. Just look out for the players that will try to grab or do something else when they see you approaching.

If you're close enough, you could try jumping over the projectile to punish the cooldown with an aerial or fire breath.

I need to try run-shielding next time. My main closing options are to jump and fire breath, and grounded Whirling Fortress towards opponents. I need to learn what to do if projectile spammers (especially a Samus or a Mega Man) just dodge away. I could Fortress out of shield, but I've had mixed results with that.

 

[Jerodak]

@ Raiden mk-II

Yeah run shield is actually pretty amazing, I was having a lot of trouble with spam till I started trying it; it makes a pretty big difference. For rollers, Bowser's basic roll punishes are delayed dash attack for roll away, and Dsmash for roll towards, however, I've had a lot of success with retreating Fair to deal with roll towards, and it's pretty safe too if you miss as long as you aren't falling into a pattern. If you know how to fast fall your Fair properly, even if they roll away from you, as long as you chase them, you seem to be able to recover just fast enough to jab. Against Samus it's a little different because her roll is kinda slow and far moving but this means she's invincible longer. However, this means you also have more time to react if you see it while in neutral, just keep the spacing in mind and be wary of it.

Edit: Up-B is also a good option for roll towards and is safer than Dsmash.

A good way to practice roll punishing without the worry of losing a match is just to go into training mode against a level 9 CPU, and set it to run. Then just practice stuff like spacing for the forward roll, chasing the back roll, and figure out which punishes work best for you.

 

[MrEh]

Dsmash is more of a pre-emptive way to stop rolls towards you, and I generally don't do it unless it's an extremely hard read. Fortress can be done reactively and is usually much much safer as an option.

 

[Mr. Bones]

Dsmash is more of a pre-emptive way to stop rolls towards you, and I generally don't do it unless it's an extremely hard read. Fortress can be done reactively and is usually much much safer as an option.

This. I eat rolls with Up-B and Fire everyday. Fire Breath to chase the roll-aways. Up-B to catch the roll-towards. Pure Gravy. <3

 

[Zigsta]

I'm not a fan at all of using fire breath to catch rolls. If you're going to read a roll, chase them with a grab, Klaw, dash or upsmash. No use in making a read if you're only gonna do 7% tops with no followup options.

 

[Mr. Bones]

I like Fire Breath because it covers more than the roll away option. I prefer the coverage and I've never lost a game of attrition/patience. Most of my losses come from trying to go ham(not that the options you listed could be considered going ham).

I'm not going to try to catch a roll with Up-Smash.

Ever. Not after the last few times that ****ed me over. I might chase with a grab or jab if I know they'll roll away but that's about it. Klaw if I'm in a position to win with it.

 

[MrEh]

I usually use Fire as a zoning tool or as a means to cover options. However, if I'm in the range where my Fire would catch both a backwards and a forward roll, odds are I am probably too close to my opponent to use Fire safely.

That's just how I feel about it though.There are times where I would do it, but it's situational and very character dependent.

If you're going to read a roll, chase them with a grab, Klaw, dash or upsmash.

^^^

Real talk: Usmash is better at catching rolls towards you then Dsmash is. You can Usmash OoS, that in itself makes it much easier to hit people reactively with it compared to Dsmash.

Usmash also doesn't lag for a million years if you miss.

 

[Mr. Bones]

I think Dsmash is probably the move I use the least. Feels like Up-B is stronger and does the same thing while moving in this game.

Also I don't always Fire Breath. It's just my go to-option for spammers. Also running up->grounded Fire Breath catches a lot of silly spot-dodges. ;o

 

[Raiden mk-II]

The only times I've used Down Smash is to gimp recoveries and to end a combo. I don't use it as a punishment move.

 

[Karsticles]

I only use down smash on accident when I am trying to down tilt. The move is crap. It should have armor or something.

 

[Jerodak]

More things that we can Fsmash OOS for free!

Luigi's Default down B, unsure about the customs.

Ledge get-up attacks.

Default Metaknight Neutral B. Lol

Duck hunt Side B, but this is REALLY hard, you have to be pretty close to him already and the explosions can get in the way if they detonate it as soon as possible, but it appears to be possible, Ftilt will probably be generally better though just because it's easier.


By the way, since there was more talk about Down smash, I decided to look into it, I ran a test with a friend of mine using Marth, and had him use all of the standard ledge get-up options while I tried to punish him. At first I was using Up smash, and I realized that it seemed to be a good way to beat multiple options. However, it didn't do anything to Marth if he just hung out on the ledge and waited. Then, we took at look at Down smash.

So basically the idea here is that when Marth grabbed the ledge, I would start charging, then simply let go on reaction to any movement that I saw. It wasn't incredibly hard to do at all, even when I asked him to mix up his options and timing. The Down smash won against every option, including the ledge attack and ledge jump, and to make things even better, as long as you space it properly, it also punishes marth for just hanging on the ledge, so you can just let go the instant ledge invulnerability is gone.

Now obviously, this will probably lose to ledge hopped counter, and aerials, I'll do a bit more testing on that with various characters. However, that aside, this could probably still be useful as a surprise edgeguard, especially against anyone without a counter. What makes this even better, is that the spacing for this edgeguard also allows you to use grounded down b to the ledge, which could be used for ledge trumping or punishing recoveries with little or no ledge snap.

The spacing for this, is when you crouch at a ledge, Bowser's hand should stick out a bit, just his fingers, and you should be able to bomb the ledge from where you are standing and not die. The spacing is very important, too far in and you don't cover the idle option, too far out and you don't cover rolls. Also, in both cases you could try to bomb and either land on the stage for a free punish or SD for a free stock.

If anyone would like to do some of their own testing, either in the lab or in actual matches, and post results then please do that. I'll probably be putting all of this into the OP if it turns out to be as good as it looks.


EDIT: Looked into this a bit further! It appears that when Marth tries to jump from the ledge to the stage directly with an aerial or a counter then Down smash will stuff the ledge hop. However, he can still do a retreating Nair from the ledge to hit you or he can drop down and up b to hit with that as well. Bowser bomb and firebreath can cover retreating options though, and if the counter comes out in the air, grounded klaw can grab it if he's not too high, or you could just normally grab it I guess.

A few times, the aerials traded with the Down smash, but it usually just threw Marth back offstage, so the trade appears to be favorable.

That's about all for now I guess.

 

[Ieven]

It seems that we can't bowsercide in this game. Some people said that the opponent can control Bowser when you get grab by the Side B, is that true ?

 

[MrEh]

It seems that we can't bowsercide in this game. Some people said that the opponent can control Bowser when you get grab by the Side B, is that true ?

The player with lower percent has more control over the Bowsercide.

That's how it's always been.

 

[Zigsta]

Not sure if this had been said already but if you block Rosalina's jab finisher you get guaranteed fsmash.