I've just never been able to get close enough to grab Yoshi from Bowser's normal grab range before Yoshi grabbed me. I'm usually just out of range. =(
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Data Bowser's Moveset Data & Discussion
- Thread starter Jerodak
- Start date
MrEh
Smash Hero
That's a range issue then. Not a speed issue.
Well, my point was that I appreciate both the range and speed of Bowser's pivot grab. I brought up speed because you normally wouldn't expect something of Bowser's pivot grab's range to have the speed of a non-tether grab. I had intended to comment on the move as a whole, but I apologize if it sounded like I was complaining. I just enjoyed pulling it off. In most cases, Bowser should be spacing jabs against Yoshi.
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B!squick
Smash Master
Yeah, I can't wait to use it with a real controller. I might be able to pull it off somewhat consistently then.
Jerodak
Smash Lord
Lemonade Candy
Smash Apprentice
So when falling downwards our best option is to nair, side b for lag recovery, or reading whether they'll be under you or not for dair and bowser bomb?
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Jerodak
Smash Lord
Depends on what the opponent is doing, Dair tends to work well if they are looking for a dash attack or a grab, and if they jump with an aerial and you use the rise to make it whiff for a punish. Nair can be useful as a defensive aerial but you need to use it a bit early to account for it's start up. Firebreath isn't a bad landing tool, it gives you the option to wave bounce or recoil and the B reverse flame is useful as well, it won't help against anyone going directly under you though. Klaw is good if you see them shielding or maybe for baiting out mistakes, just keep in mind that you still get hard landing frames at bare minimum, if it's like Brawl's in that respect then it's hard landing +1 frame. Bowser bomb can be used as a mix-up to Dair if you see them shielding and it's a very good option from over the ledge since you do drop quickly and it cancels into a ledge grab. If you see them trying to roll away from you cause they don't want to get Dair'd or bombed then you can try an empty fastfall and get a pretty free landing.
Also when airdodging, just be careful about your height from the ground and fall speed, you can airdodge from around full jump height at normal speed and either klaw after for the lag or land after the airdodge ends, from a bit over double jump height, usually when you get thrown or launched up at mid-high percents you can fastfall airdodge and you'll flash most of the way down and land normally if you did it correctly. I'd only recommend either of these if you see a big commitment from the opponent.
Oh, and don't underestimate footstooling as a landing mix-up tool, just make sure you short hop to make the most of it.
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Netherfall
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Oct 6, 2014
- Messages
- 60
- NNID
- bambamboombop
- 3DS FC
- 1822-1445-5706
Not sure if this has been mentioned or not, but does anyone know which ending jabs are punishable with fsmash? So far I've been to get Fox,Falco, RosaLuma, and Shiek after the final jab lands, but haven't done it with other characters. I think Mac doesn't have as much ending lag and can react in time but don't know about anyone else. Has anyone tested this?
Lord of Boxes
Smash Rookie
I think Bowser's Dash Slam is a direct upgrade to Flying slam, Is there any downgrades?
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KO power goes down to the point where it won't kill anything but lightweights above 200%. Other then that, there's a wave canceled crawl that shifts you a good distance across an omega stage, and it allows for punishment at great range. It's a great custom to use against characters with absurd spacing tools.
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Jerodak
Smash Lord
I'm pretty sure that any rapid jab ending can be Fsmashed OOS with the right timing. So if you're ever shielding rapid jabs, just wait for the finisher and punish. Don't rely on it though, the timing is a little tight and they can just hold the jab longer to wear out your shield for the finisher.
Yeah. If you think an opponent is going to do that and you're not just plowing through the attacks with your Tough Guy super armor, it's okay to roll. You can just punish with a dash grab or anything else suitable.
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Jerodak
Smash Lord
So out of curiosity I wanted to go ahead and confirm exactly what and where Bowser's disjoints are, until I can find something more reliable, my current methods are the Bob-omb because it seems to have the smallest explosion of all of the explosive items, and the bumper item because it's basically just a stationary hitbox that you can space against but i'm not sure how reliable the bumper is, but I imagine that as long as a hurtbox touches it at all, then it will activate.
I also tested animations and stances which weren't attacks, basically this can serve as a sort of makeshift hitbox/hurtbox information till we get something a bit more official.
So far here are my results
Firebreath: ...
Bair: Nope.
So, that's a lot of disjointed stuff, if these tests are indeed accurate! Feel free to try these tests out yourselves in training mode if you need a visual aid of any kind or just want to confirm it for yourselves. I'll also answer any questions that come up as best I can, and please let me know if I overlooked something.
I also tested animations and stances which weren't attacks, basically this can serve as a sort of makeshift hitbox/hurtbox information till we get something a bit more official.
So far here are my results
The Bob-omb test was a little iffy here because of how bob-oms work and the fact I was unable to have it walk into certain parts of Bowser's body to confirm where the hurtboxes are. However, in a previous grab test I did with some other characters it does appear that the hand which sticks out in front of him, and part of his leg around where the knee is are intangible, this was also confirmed in the bumper test. The tip of his toes, and top half of his head, minus the hair of course, as well as the tip of his nose can be hit though. The beginning of his idle stance is probably where he's the thinnest because he's not shifting forward too much, he'll do two reps of breathing before doing one of two alternate animations at random. To prevent these from showing up, you can just tilt the stick forward so that you trigger the walking animation but don't actually start to move forward within the two breathing reps to reset the animation. It's hard to tell if he sticks out more in the front or the back, but they seem about the same and his turning animation seems to actually make him wider for a few frames which made it difficult to check.
According to the bumper test, the hand that sticks out, his head, his tail, and the very very top of his shell appear to be intangible. The bob-omb test confirms the first three as well. Basically to hit him, you have to space where the white rim of his shell is if you're spacing horizontally, vertically most of his shell can be hit. It does make him shorter, though not by much and unlike in Brawl, where he actually pulls back a bit, he's now either a bit fatter or just stucks out in the front a little more when he crouches.
This was a little tricky to test but it's mostly the same as the idle animation except it seems his leg is more susceptible to being hit. The hand, and lower jaw are still intangible and he's slightly taller than he is just standing; I only used the bumper test for this.
His nose is actually intangible, but the green part of his face can be hit, and the hand, as always, is intangible. Did he do some iron palm training or something? Anyway, the fact the nose doesn't get hit is nice, since it sticks way out when he runs. He does appear to be a bit wider while running, but also slightly shorter, or his head is at least. I tried to test the run pivot animation also but all I can tell is that he leans forward during it, not that it'd be used in a match or anything but something that would hit you form behind normally might barely whiff if he's in this animation instead if that makes sense; I only used the Bumper test.
Bowser's jump squat is BAAAAAAAD, it actually makes him even fatter than his crouch, so if you've ever wondered why you've been getting hit when trying to space your jumps, this is probably the culprit, Bowser's face sticks out in front of him like it's Brawl so the attack, which probably would have whiffed, hits him on the nose instead, his backside sicks out too, but not quite as much. This unfortunately made testing the actual airborne stances a bit harder, but I did it anyway, to the best of my abilities. Just like his other animations, the hand in front of him is not tangible, the back leg seemed to be intangible, as well as his toes, unlike in the idle stance; the rest seem about as expected.
As expected, both arms are completely intangible. Bowser's face, however, is not and of course it sticks out while he's jabbing. However, as long as his nose didn't activate the bumper, his arms never did, even during the animation when he's drawing them back in after the jab.
The entire arm, completely disjointed, of course, Bowser likes to play fair so he makes sure to stick his nose out as well. During the bumper test, I was actually able to Ftilt from a closer distance when angling it up than when angling it forward thanks to the fact that he looks up while doing it; even the drawback animation for the arm didn't trigger the bumper. Oh, and Bowser does still "fold" himself back just like in Brawl, so you can use that for spacing; this passed both tests.
So Bowser's arms don't stick out much further than his nose here. Fortunately, when mastering his iron palm technique, he learned how to create damaging vacuums with his fists and he uses those here to make up for the difference. The second punch has a bit more range than the first one, which is probably why it's easier to link both hits together than it was in Brawl. The wind slashes appear to be mostly accurate to the attack range, but there's a small bit of it at the tip that is purely visual. Still, the range is pretty good; this passed both tests.
Once again, Bowser doesn't feel comfortable throwing an amazing disjointed hitbox without sticking his nose out a bit. This causes him to be slightly "taller" for a bit while he looks up but the entire arm, is intangible, even when he's picking it up from behind him; this passed both tests.
I've covered this one already, but I'll mention again that there are disjoints on either side, and it even hits low enough to cover the ledge. The disjoint doesn't appear to cover the top of the shell though. There's also a considerable wind-back for the charge animation, and the move itself makes Bowser quite small compared to most of his other animations.
We all know about the wonders of shellguard, there isn't really any intangibility here, but the shellguard negates the effect of the bumper as it activates. The charge animation appears to be lower than his crouch, but only initially, the longer you charge, the more he sticks his butt up in the air, the front half stays pretty low though.
Here's where things get interesting, so after doing both the Bob-omb and Bumper tests with this, I found out that from the moment the hitbox is out, until shortly after he touches the ground, Bowser's entire legs, up to his waist, are completely intangible, and Bowser's nose isn't even sticking out with it this time! His entire Body becomes a hitbox during the attack, but no other parts of him are intangible so the disjoint is only on his legs. Still, this is very amazing considering the sheer range and power behind it! It wasn't really possible to test the charge animation, but he does definately seem to shift his hurtbox, only now he shifts more downwards than away, which could still be useful in certain situations as mentioned before in another post by @Zigsta. Also, I'd like to credit @
Raiden mk-II
for pretty much inspiring me to make this post in the first place.
Raiden mk-II
for pretty much inspiring me to make this post in the first place.The hand didn't trigger the bumper or the walking bob-omb during any of the grab states, testing pivot grab on the bumper was made ten times more fun by the fact he gets a little wider by turning and running. Of course, his nose pokes out too, in order to give the opponent something to hit.
This failed both tests, this appears to be the only grounded attack that lacks a disjoint.
Firebreath: ...
This has a larger disjoint than down smash, but only at the last hit. Otherwise, the hitbox is exactly where his shell is. Similarly to down smash as well, he's also pretty small during this compared to other animations. I don't know which of the two is smaller, and don't know a way to really test that at all, sorry guys!
The rising hit is disjointed, and I believe it's also transcendent. It can hit from roughly half a battlefield platform away, which is pretty good, just be careful of people flying away from you when using the max or minimum distance. Not sure if the reported removal of vectoring improves this for us at all, perhaps I'll test that out next. I'm not sure about any disjoints on the actual fall, but as always, it seems his hands are intangible as they can overlap a bumper without activating it. However, the landing part of it produces a shockwave with enough range to detonate a bob-omb without the explosion touching Bowser at all, the range on it isn't that great, but it's there, which is nice.
Does not set off the bumper, and does not blow up the walking Bob-omb, I did this test on the air and ground versions. Even after the grab is complete, the arm being brought back in does didn't trigger anything. Watch out for his nose, though.
The arm is completely intangible, but the size of the disjoint relative to his body seems to vary at different parts of the attack, it was kinda tricky spacing the attack so that the bob-omb didn't hit Bowser, and the bob-omb was actually above me when I finally did it; still, a great attack overall.
Bair: Nope.
Amazingly, it seems like the arms are intangible but the legs are not, the arms don't activate the bumpers but even the tips of his toes do; I didn't bother much with the bob-omb test.
I actually did the bob-omb test with this one on accident while trying to do the Fair bob-omb test, it can detonate the bob-omb safely, Bowser's head also didn't set-up the bumper, so it appears his horns are intangible. The entire part of the air slash that covers his head seems to mark where his intangibility is.
So, that's a lot of disjointed stuff, if these tests are indeed accurate! Feel free to try these tests out yourselves in training mode if you need a visual aid of any kind or just want to confirm it for yourselves. I'll also answer any questions that come up as best I can, and please let me know if I overlooked something.
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MrEh
Smash Hero
Yeah, there's no invincibility or anything really. Just a massive ass autoguard hurtbox.
I've never seen the rising hit clank with anything before in my life, so it being transcendent is definitely a probability.
As for the supposed removal of vectoring, it makes our grounded bombs kill people at 90. Rejoice!
B!squick
Smash Master
They removed vectoring? Random. Was that with the 1.0.4 patch?Yeah, there's no invincibility or anything really. Just a massive *** autoguard hurtbox.
I've never seen the rising hit clank with anything before in my life, so it being transcendent is definitely a probability.
As for the supposed removal of vectoring, it makes our grounded bombs kill people at 90. Rejoice!
Jerodak
Smash Lord
Hopefully it also helps with the issue of characters flying away from the second hit, maybe it'll also help a bit with characters teching out of fortress and so on.
Jerodak
Smash Lord
So, "Tough Guy" I'm not going to pretend I know the mechanics behind it, but I can test attacks at various percents and post the results.
Also, I should point out that because I do not have all the customs, I won't be testing them for the time being, but if anyone would like to contribute information regarding customs then I will add it to the list.
Pretty interesting overall in my opinion, a little gimmicky in some instances like with Mii Swordsman and Bowser Jr's Dash attack, and quite amazing in others, imagine the Duck Hunt match up without tough guy, or even the Luigi match-up. There are even some options which are effectively invalid, or at least made largely ineffective, during your entire stock like Ness's Dtilt and Megaman's Crash Bomb, even if these options aren't all that useful for those characters, putting such a big limit on even a single option is actually a really strong tool.
I mean let's look at the case with Luigi for a second, at the start of the match, he's basically forced to approach because we aren't at 56% yet. If he uses a fireball at all, we can charge through it and punish his cooldown relatively free unless he's absolutely flawless with his spacing and we weren't expecting it. So he basically has to get in and get a grab so he can combo us into safe fireball ranges, then he can back off and has the option to set-up fireballs if he wants. And that's if he managed to do all of this without taking more damage than he dished out in the process. It's certainly not impossible for Luigi to overcome and take the match, but considering how much trouble he has actually approaching, and Bowser's options to deal with approaching, and it sounds like a pretty tough situation, at least on paper.
Anyway, hope this helped! I'll be adding this and a bunch of other stuff to the OP over the next few days, pretty much just compiling all of the relevant data that we've amassed so far for easy access. Thanks to everyone that's made any sort of contributions in that regard, as well as the support that I've received from everyone; It's much appreciated!
Also, I should point out that because I do not have all the customs, I won't be testing them for the time being, but if anyone would like to contribute information regarding customs then I will add it to the list.
The Green Fireball: 0-55%
Fire Jump Punch (Single Coin): 0-999%
Fire Jump Punch (Single Coin): 0-999%
Dair: 0-6% (First three hits only)
Mr. Saturn: 0-15% (Tilt throw) 0-12% (Smash throw) 0-30% (Sh drop) 0-17% (Float drop)
For the float drop I dropped from about where Peach would space Dair on a standing Bowser.
Mr. Saturn: 0-15% (Tilt throw) 0-12% (Smash throw) 0-30% (Sh drop) 0-17% (Float drop)
For the float drop I dropped from about where Peach would space Dair on a standing Bowser.
Dash attack 0-1% Any three hits minus the last one.
Uncharged Waft (Trip): 0-999%
Judge 2: 0-8%
Uncharged Arrow: 0-6%
Half charged Arrow: 0%
Half charged Arrow: 0%
Jab (Rapid): 0-162%
Dancing Blade (Rapid): 0-97% All hits except the last one.
Jab 1: 0-74%
Jab 2: 0-57%
Jab 2: 0-57%
Jab: 0-50% All hits except finisher.
Jab (Rapid): 0-120% All hits except the finisher.
Dair: 0-11%
Dair: 0-11%
Jab 1: 0-107%
Jab (Close): 0-8%
Jab (Tip): 0-34%
Jab (Tip): 0-34%
Jab (Rapid): 0-50% All hits except finisher.
Bair (Hit 1): 0%
Bair (Hit 2):0-1%
Bair (Hit 1): 0%
Bair (Hit 2):0-1%
Clay Pidgeon (Zapper Shots): 0-306% First two shots only.
Jab 1: 0-8%
PK Fire (Pillar): 0-44% Basically every hit after the initial one.
Dtilt: 0-164%
Dtilt: 0-164%
Jab (Rapid): 0-101% Only works at the very tip.
Dsmash(Uncharged): 0-3% Both hits.
Dsmash(Charged to 6%): 0-2% Both hits.
Dsmash(Charged to 7%): 0-1% Both hits.
Dsmash(Charged to 8%): 0% Both hits. It has to pretty much have just reached an 8% charge, fully charged Dsmash will always work.
Dsmash(Charged to 6%): 0-2% Both hits.
Dsmash(Charged to 7%): 0-1% Both hits.
Dsmash(Charged to 8%): 0% Both hits. It has to pretty much have just reached an 8% charge, fully charged Dsmash will always work.
Jab 3 (Bury): 0-19%
Jab 3 (Bury) [Deep Breathing]: 0-16%
Jab 3 (Bury) [Deep Breathing]: 0-16%
Pellets (Weak hit): 0-372% All versions, basically mid to max range.
Crash Bomb: 0-190% All hits except the last one, possible for the last hit to whiff if you're moving during the explosion.
Crash Bomb: 0-190% All hits except the last one, possible for the last hit to whiff if you're moving during the explosion.
Stone Scabbard (Weak hit): 0-999% There's a shockwave when the sword is stabbed into the ground that always gets shrugged off. This hit is the very tip of the shockwave, so it's not likely to happen much in an actual fight. Also I tested this with a small and large physique, there was no difference.
Pretty interesting overall in my opinion, a little gimmicky in some instances like with Mii Swordsman and Bowser Jr's Dash attack, and quite amazing in others, imagine the Duck Hunt match up without tough guy, or even the Luigi match-up. There are even some options which are effectively invalid, or at least made largely ineffective, during your entire stock like Ness's Dtilt and Megaman's Crash Bomb, even if these options aren't all that useful for those characters, putting such a big limit on even a single option is actually a really strong tool.
I mean let's look at the case with Luigi for a second, at the start of the match, he's basically forced to approach because we aren't at 56% yet. If he uses a fireball at all, we can charge through it and punish his cooldown relatively free unless he's absolutely flawless with his spacing and we weren't expecting it. So he basically has to get in and get a grab so he can combo us into safe fireball ranges, then he can back off and has the option to set-up fireballs if he wants. And that's if he managed to do all of this without taking more damage than he dished out in the process. It's certainly not impossible for Luigi to overcome and take the match, but considering how much trouble he has actually approaching, and Bowser's options to deal with approaching, and it sounds like a pretty tough situation, at least on paper.
Anyway, hope this helped! I'll be adding this and a bunch of other stuff to the OP over the next few days, pretty much just compiling all of the relevant data that we've amassed so far for easy access. Thanks to everyone that's made any sort of contributions in that regard, as well as the support that I've received from everyone; It's much appreciated!
The fireballs require some practice to effectively plow through them and punish Luigi. When they hit you and Tough Guy activates, a huge amount of hit lag also occurs, screwing up your timing unless you've already become accustomed to it. Also, if any of your attacks clank (like the dash attack hit box; don't use dash attack), you are stuck in the clash frames, which is enough time for luigi to grab, down throw, and combo the ever living snot out of you, negating our advantage over the fireballs and possibly walling us off for the rest of the match. Luigi's cooldown after using a fireball is such that from medium range he can dash grab you if you clank or fail to power shield the fireball. Amusingly, getting hit by the fireball directly after 56% doesn't leave us as open due to the flinch frames not being as long as the frames required to recover from shield stun.
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Jerodak
Smash Lord
I've been in a similar predicament myself, you might be surprised at how little advantage the opposing character might have in that situation, it's very likely that you're recovering soon enough to be able to roll, spot dodge, or even shield-drop to jab. You can also try shield grabbing him, I believe our grab range is better and it's a fast option that carries no risk of accidentally jumping. I'm pretty sure fortress should work though, you don't have to wait too long for it to come out, you just have to time your inputs a little differently, instead of sliding your thumb from jump to B you have to actually delay a bit between jump and B. The issue is that we can't buffer multiple inputs anymore so only the jump will buffer if you put the inputs too closely together. It really sucks, but it's just something we have to get used to in order to make the most of Up-B.
Also it's very good idea to practice using tough guy to go through projectiles because it's important to the Duck Hunt match-up. When you shield a clay pidgeon, it's important to press the advantage because there's actually quite a bit of cool down that Duck hunt goes through after throwing the pidgeon, unless that got patched down for some reason. Anyway, it means the difference between being able to move into a favorable range, and being walled out.
The Luigi player I fought had impeccable timing. I tried all those things and it did not work unless it was a power shield. Luigi's dash grab is also already out before the shield can drop. It was incredibly frustrating. I understand that the advantage isn't as large as I make it out to be, though, because even the Luigi I fought screwed it up 2 or 3 times.
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Raiden mk-II
Smash Journeyman
For those who have played Project M, how does Tough Guy compare to Bowser's Hyper Armor in P:M?
MagiusNecros
Smash Master
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2014
- Messages
- 3,176
Hyper Armor is actually usable. TG is situational and happens rarely.
B!squick
Smash Master
Anyone else notice that FSmash has IASA frames? It's at the very end, right when his leading foot is flat on the ground. I don't think anyone really noticed, or at least I didn't, because it doesn't skip very many frames and is still really laggy regardless.
Also, I somehow never noticed DAir's initial hitbox is second only to FSmash and USmash in terms of power. 25%? Dang.
Also, I somehow never noticed DAir's initial hitbox is second only to FSmash and USmash in terms of power. 25%? Dang.
MrEh
Smash Hero
When you land Dair, you deserve it.
Jerodak
Smash Lord
Dair dunks are great, especially when you get them on someone trying to edgeguard and still manage to recover.
B!squick
Smash Master
I just thought of something. How vulnerable is Bowser during the, well I guess you have call it "draw up" animation of DAir? Can Bowser counter spike?
MrEh
Smash Hero
I'm guessing pretty vulnerable, but I'm not exactly sure when the hitbox actually starts. For all we know, it might be faster then we think.
Raiden mk-II
Smash Journeyman
I've been landing Down Air spikes regularly, and it trades hits. Bowser gets hurt by moves like Link's Up B, but the spike still happens. Example in my match against Link:
So it appears the spike hurtbox of our Down Air is completely safe and has top priority.
So it appears the spike hurtbox of our Down Air is completely safe and has top priority.
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Jerodak
Smash Lord
B!squick
Smash Master
Let's all make a pact to turn DAir into the new Bowsercide. I DAir them to gut that move, too.
Raiden mk-II
Smash Journeyman
I was able to trade hits on my Down Air spike and Lucina's Up B. She got spiked to oblivion while her attack ironically saved me. I think it is safe to say our down air spike has ultimate priority. Bowsercide who?
MagiusNecros
Smash Master
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2014
- Messages
- 3,176
Yeah that Spike is as scary as Ganondorf's spikes IMO.
Jerodak
Smash Lord
Yeah Bowser's Dair can beat Yoshi's eggs, and Villager's up smash. The priority on it is amazing, and the spike is very clutch, it can completely change the outcome of a match, especially with rage. All it takes is one good read on the recovery or one mistake and you can take the game just like that, it's a very decisive attack, and the "CRACK!" it makes when you get the spike only adds to the satisfaction of actually landing it successfully, it's almost like the "KEENG!" on Rest and Fire Punch.
MrEh
Smash Hero
The feeling of landing that perfect Dair onstage is amazing.
And then your opponent techs and you get sad.
And then your opponent techs and you get sad.
Karsticles
Smash Journeyman
The best feeling is landing the spike right near the edge so your opponent survives and you die.
The worst feeling is spiking to suicide, but you miss the spike portion and die anyway.
The worst feeling is spiking to suicide, but you miss the spike portion and die anyway.