Data Bowser's Moveset Data & Discussion

[Jerodak]

I think you got that switched up haha

Not if he enjoys stylish charity stocks.

 

[S_B]

Yeah Bowser's Dair can beat Yoshi's eggs, and Villager's up smash. The priority on it is amazing

I feel like Dair has higher priority than bomb, TBH. I've not done any extensive testing, but I just feel like I've been knocked out of bomb more times than Dair, by far.

 

[Jerodak]

I feel like Dair has higher priority than bomb, TBH. I've not done any extensive testing, but I just feel like I've been knocked out of bomb more times than Dair, by far.

In my experience, each one seems to work better against different things, Dair can go through Villager's upsmash but it won't go through any hitboxes for the tree, on top of that, a fresh Bowser bomb will also one-shot a tree, so you can hit the villager and kill the tree in one shot if you are spacing properly. Not sure how well Dair works against charged projectiles, but Bomb handles them pretty well, which is useful for recovering high because it's harder to punish than it used to be.

 

[S_B]

In my experience, each one seems to work better against different things, Dair can go through Villager's upsmash but it won't go through any hitboxes for the tree, on top of that, a fresh Bowser bomb will also one-shot a tree, so you can hit the villager and kill the tree in one shot if you are spacing properly. Not sure how well Dair works against charged projectiles, but Bomb handles them pretty well, which is useful for recovering high because it's harder to punish than it used to be.

Sadly, bomb still gets outdone by, well, bombs.

Also, bomb's additional startup time makes it easier to dodge or, worse yet, to counter.

 

[Lemonade Candy]

Something weird happened to me last night while I was playing my roommate. I was hanging on the ledge as Bowser and he used Ness' down tilt to poke at me on the ledge. Instead of being knocked off the ledge, Bowser just hung there patiently absorbing the hits.

Did anyone know that he has armor while on the ledge? Im sure it's certain moves.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Something weird happened to me last night while I was playing my roommate. I was hanging on the ledge as Bowser and he used Ness' down tilt to poke at me on the ledge. Instead of being knocked off the ledge, Bowser just hung there patiently absorbing the hits.

Did anyone know that he has armor while on the ledge? Im sure it's certain moves.

Probably Tough Guy. No flinch on weak attacks.

 

[Lemonade Candy]

Yeah I just hung on the ledge. It was freaking awesome lol

 

[Jerodak]

Yep, Ness's down tilts is actually one of the few attacks that is basically made completely invalid by Tough Guy. By the time it'll actually flinch you, he should already be fishing for back throws or back airs instead so even then it's not all that useful. It probably won't affect the match-up in any significant way, but it's something to consider I guess.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Personally to maximize the usefulness of Tough Guy is to make a list of attacks that TG works on. If Bowser players can have this knowledge we can possibly ignore what players do and get an attack on them that way. There is no greater feeling then landing a big attack on someone who has no way to avoid it.

 

[Jerodak]

Personally to maximize the usefulness of Tough Guy is to make a list of attacks that TG works on. If Bowser players can have this knowledge we can possibly ignore what players do and get an attack on them that way. There is no greater feeling then landing a big attack on someone who has no way to avoid it.

There is one, it's on the OP of this thread, just expand the tough guy spoiler. It only details default movesets, so if you'd like to add information regarding custom moves then please let me know by either PMing me or just posting it in this thread so I can update the list.

 

[MagiusNecros]

There is one, it's on the OP of this thread, just expand the tough guy spoiler. It only details default movesets, so if you'd like to add information regarding custom moves then please let me know by either PMing me or just posting it in this thread so I can update the list.

Thanks. If I unlock all customs I'll have to do some testing.

 

[Mr. Bones]

Guys, we have been sleeping REALLY hard on Nair. I always thought it could be a good move but I tested it extensively last night and it leads into some really great follow-ups for low edge-guards and catching your opponent's fall.

Depending on the hitbox I hit with before disengaging I can get a guaranteed footstool (did that twice), or pretty much any of Bowser's aerials as a follow up. I was able to follow-up with Dair three different times for a spike. I actually ran out of replay room but I still have some of the games where I used Nair to amazing affect.

Another was a Nair->Uair kill that appeared to be either guaranteed or a really tight window for escape.

It's applications for edgeguarding could end up being golden.

There's still more testing to do as far as catching the opponent in the air. So far that worked pretty well too.

 

[Karsticles]

Guys, we have been sleeping REALLY hard on Nair. I always thought it could be a good move but I tested it extensively last night and it leads into some really great follow-ups for low edge-guards and catching your opponent's fall.

Depending on the hitbox I hit with before disengaging I can get a guaranteed footstool (did that twice), or pretty much any of Bowser's aerials as a follow up. I was able to follow-up with Dair three different times for a spike. I actually ran out of replay room but I still have some of the games where I used Nair to amazing affect.

Another was a Nair->Uair kill that appeared to be either guaranteed or a really tight window for escape.

It's applications for edgeguarding could end up being golden.

There's still more testing to do as far as catching the opponent in the air. So far that worked pretty well too.

That sounds exciting. I look forward to the videos.

 

[B!squick]

NAir has a really short start-up and makes hitboxes all around Bowser. And Bowser is the size of a house. DAir aside, this is easily his most improved move. However, I'm guilty of not using as much as I should. I'm so use to it being part of the triforce of trash (NAir, DAir, DSmash).

 

[Mr. Bones]

NAir has a really short start-up and makes hitboxes all around Bowser. And Bowser is the size of a house. DAir aside, this is easily his most improved move. However, I'm guilty of not using as much as I should. I'm so use to it being part of the triforce of trash (NAir, DAir, DSmash).

That's what I mean. I knew it was better than it was in Brawl or Melee. I just didn't know how much better until I started testing different **** with it. I was using it before as just a one-move way of catching air-dodges.

But wow, so many of our aerials can be followed up out of it. Also we can Nair at the start of a full-hop and double jump before hitting the ground. Or just FHAC Nair into a grounded action for a frame trap.

That sounds exciting. I look forward to the videos.

I'll try my best to have them up tomorrow. If not, they'll definitely be up by Friday if I can help it.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

@ Mr. Bones Thanks for sharing your results. Looking forward to the follow ups and discussions on when they are most viable and on what weight class we should be exploiting them. FHAC Nair has always been iffy to me, though. I've done it a few times out of boredom, but my opponent normally doesn't fall for it unless they're Little Mac.

 

[Jerodak]

@ Mr. Bones Nice work. If you're willing to write up a general guide on the proper use of Nair then I'll add it to the original post for reference.

Edit: Also, I'm feeling a little skeptical on Nair being "fast", maybe its just because of how it hits but I always felt like it was a little slow to get started, so I usually initiate it a little earlier than normal, but it's still worked great so far. It'd be great if we had complete hitbox and frame data.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

@ Mr. Bones Nice work. If you're willing to write up a general guide on the proper use of Nair then I'll add it to the original post for reference.

Edit: Also, I'm feeling a little skeptical on Nair being "fast", maybe its just because of how it hits but I always felt like it was a little slow to get started, so I usually initiate it a little earlier than normal, but it's still worked great so far. It'd be great if we had complete hitbox and frame data.

The initial hit box generates at 12 o clock. It's about as fast as Fair's hit box to come out, but it won't reach below Bowser till a few frames later, tested against Classic 9.0 Swarm Giant.

 

[Mr. Bones]

@ Mr. Bones Nice work. If you're willing to write up a general guide on the proper use of Nair then I'll add it to the original post for reference.

So far the best results come from edge-guarding opponents that are trying to recover from an angle below the ledge, where it's harder to hit Fair/Bair safely. You can use a falling Nair to pop them up for a follow up aerial or footstool. In general, the best application seems to be edge guarding set-ups or catching jump-happy opponents. Different hitboxes/timings for it can lead into different aerials fairly reliably depending on when they pop-up.

Edit: Also, I'm feeling a little skeptical on Nair being "fast", maybe its just because of how it hits but I always felt like it was a little slow to get started, so I usually initiate it a little earlier than normal, but it's still worked great so far.

It's actually pretty quick (the first hitbox happens above Bowser). I've actually been initiating it earlier for the set-ups into other aerials/footstools. The weaker hits at the end provide enough stun for the set-ups.

 

[Jerodak]

The initial hit box generates at 12 o clock. It's about as fast as Fair's hit box to come out, but it won't reach below Bowser till a few frames later, tested against Classic 9.0 Swarm Giant.

It's actually pretty quick (the first hitbox happens above Bowser). I've actually been initiating it earlier for the set-ups into other aerials/footstools. The weaker hits at the end provide enough stun for the set-ups.

In that case we could say that it has two seperate start-ups, the initial start-up when the first hitbox comes out and the full start-up when it becomes a functional Nair.

 

[Zigsta]

Nair > bair is really handy. Since nair has a good bit of hitstun, it's not too hard to followup with bair (or dair, depending on the situation). It's definitely something that needs to be utilized more, especially since nair beats airdodges. Typically when opponents see a Bowser jump towards them offstage they're either thinking you're gonna bair or fair depending on which direction Bowser's facing. They never expect dair. :D

 

[Hitman JT]

The Bowsercide nerf motivated me to get to work on figuring out better punishes for several situations. Like Bowser Bombing D3 after his 2nd jab, OoS up-smashing ledge attacks, sidestepping Sonic's homing attack and dropkicking him, stuff like that. I wanna get to work on a punish guide for moves that are common, deceptively laggy, or just annoying to deal with. I don't have the Weeyoo version so I don't have a way to test things out by myself though.

 

[Jerodak]

The Bowsercide nerf motivated me to get to work on figuring out better punishes for several situations. Like Bowser Bombing D3 after his 2nd jab, OoS up-smashing ledge attacks, sidestepping Sonic's homing attack and dropkicking him, stuff like that. I wanna get to work on a punish guide for moves that are common, deceptively laggy, or just annoying to deal with. I don't have the Weeyoo version so I don't have a way to test things out by myself though.

It seems like we are on the same wavelength, this is actually the very next guide that I was planning to write up, I'll be willing to help out with testing, just let me know when you're available.

Edit: if you have time, would you also be willing to cover Bowser's ledge trumping options? He can trump ledges very easily, so it'd be great if we knew what all of our options were on each character.

EDIT: So you guys know how Bowser can do a sorta wavedash slide with custom specials? I just found out that it works without custom specials, in fact you don't even need to use any specials at all, just jump forward, then when you land do the same motion you'd do during the waveslash to get a similar slide backwards, it seems to work best when facing right for me but that could also be because of the controller as I'm using the 3ds version to test this. The slide isn't as far, but it's still very pronounced and appears to be usable in a similar manner. I find it helps to hold forward during the jump then roll the stick back till you're at a down-diagonal once you land and release to get the slide. This is kinda similar to how you could crawl slide on slopes in brawl but it's way more pronounced and works on a flat surface. Also, this works during a full hop or short hop.

 

[EarthBoundEnigma]

Yep, Ness's down tilts is actually one of the few attacks that is basically made completely invalid by Tough Guy. By the time it'll actually flinch you, he should already be fishing for back throws or back airs instead so even then it's not all that useful. It probably won't affect the match-up in any significant way, but it's something to consider I guess.

lol, who uses Ness' down tilt? ...against Bowser?

What's really impressive is that Tough Guy can ignore about 3-4 PK Fires and actually PUNISH through them. You can actually land a charged fsmash if you start from the moment you hear Ness say "PK!"

 

[Mr. Bones]

lol, who uses Ness' down tilt? ...against Bowser?

What's really impressive is that Tough Guy can ignore about 3-4 PK Fires and actually PUNISH through them. You can actually land a charged fsmash if you start from the moment you hear Ness say "PK!"

Huh. I knew TG ignored PK Fires early on. Didn't know I could punish like that though.

I'll add this to the list of things I can F-smash for free.

 

[Jerodak]

lol, who uses Ness' down tilt? ...against Bowser?

Exactly.

What's really impressive is that Tough Guy can ignore about 3-4 PK Fires and actually PUNISH through them. You can actually land a charged fsmash if you start from the moment you hear Ness say "PK!"

That sounds like a good shenanigan, just to be clear are we fsmashing them out of the special's cooldown or when they try to dash in for an attack or grab? Does it work if they use it from the air?

 

[EarthBoundEnigma]

Exactly.



That sounds like a good shenanigan, just to be clear are we fsmashing them out of the special's cooldown or when they try to dash in for an attack or grab? Does it work if they use it from the air?

You're starting it from the moment you hear Ness say "PK." You release before his lag ends. He shouldn't have time to get an attack or a grab. Using PK Fire in the air leaves you grounded by the end of the lag, so you have to release before he lands in order to hit.

If you charge too long you take full damage from the PK Fire, shortening how much Tough Guy you've got left. Don't get greedy. Bowser's dropkick is plenty strong enough. Use the charge more for getting the timing right.

 

[MrEh]

Nair Bowser Bomb.

Do it guys.

 

[Cassius.]

I did. Really. But I'm the kind of person who doesn't save stuff no matter how crazy it is...for whatever reason. I'll like, skip the replay option and then go over the match in my head and realize how much of an idiot I am for not saving the replay lmao.

the next time, I swear to you, Chad. I will save it and upload it to YT

the next thing I want to try is NAir -> Footstool -> Bowser Bomb LOL

 

[Jerodak]

You're starting it from the moment you hear Ness say "PK." You release before his lag ends. He shouldn't have time to get an attack or a grab. Using PK Fire in the air leaves you grounded by the end of the lag, so you have to release before he lands in order to hit.

If you charge too long you take full damage from the PK Fire, shortening how much Tough Guy you've got left. Don't get greedy. Bowser's dropkick is plenty strong enough. Use the charge more for getting the timing right.

There are a few things to look out for here then, the first is the PK mix-up, because ness also says "PK" during his up B which could either hit you out of your charge with the projectile, or if they happen to be pretty fast with the angling, they could hit you with PK thunder 2 which isn't plesant, especially if you're still charging.

The next thing is that all Ness needs to do to avoid this is just get you to about 45% before using pk fire, also even from percents where you can tank the pk fire the initial hit will always flinch you, and it annoyingly pops you up into the air so the pillar can have you slow down during your hurt frames from the rapid hits. So you'd have to SDI down first very quickly then start charging, it'd probably be better to just avoid the pk fire when you can and just use tough guy as a way to get out of grab and dash attack follow-ups at lower percents then punish those attempts if you can. Also, if it's possible to fsmash on reaction, why not just power-shield the projectile then do it? You'd take way less damage and have more advantage that way and would save your early tough guy percentage for something else.

If you're playing Ness, it's better to use his Fair chains to get Bowser offstage, then PK thunder and try to get the tail to hit to rack up as much damage as possible, then when Bowser is out of the tough guy range for PK fire you can start using it, just be careful cause I personally find pk fire spammers to be some of the easiest kind of Ness players to deal with.

Nair Bowser Bomb.

Do it guys.

Seems like Nair is looking pretty solid as a set-up aerial, how exactly did that work? I'm trying to picture it in my head.

 

[B!squick]

Gets NAir'd, tries to AD, BB hovers over them like the Sword of Damocles, opponent has enough time to shout several expletives before dying?

That's my guess anyway. I can't really picture it either, to be honest.

 

[MrEh]

Make it happen guys. I believe in all of you.


Also, did some quick testing today. I still don't have the means to record footage to test frame data accurately, but just from comparing moves, I think that Jab 1 is at LEAST +6 on hit. That's insane.

I figured this out when I learned that Jab 1 actually combos into Fortress in some situations.

 

[Jerodak]

Make it happen guys. I believe in all of you.


Also, did some quick testing today. I still don't have the means to record footage to test frame data accurately, but just from comparing moves, I think that Jab 1 is at LEAST +6 on hit. That's insane.

I figured this out when I learned that Jab 1 actually combos into Fortress in some situations.

Is it hitbox dependant? Or does it work through the entire move? The advantage, I mean.

 

[MrEh]

Not hitbox dependent from what I was testing. Frame advantage seemed to be the same. The only difference that the hitbox made is how far your opponent flies from you.

 

[Jerodak]

Not hitbox dependent from what I was testing. Frame advantage seemed to be the same. The only difference that the hitbox made is how far your opponent flies from you.

If you want I can help you do some further testing with this, with various characters at different percents, might be good to see what viable mix-ups we have on everyone and what a character might try to respond with in that situation. I only have the 3ds version at the moment, but if that's fine then let me know.

 

[MrEh]

Percents doesn't seem to matter either. It seems that Jab 1 has static knockback.

 

[Jerodak]

Percents doesn't seem to matter either. It seems that Jab 1 has static knockback.

Still interested in testing?

 

[Zigsta]

Did someone say...JAB CANCELLING??

Count me in!

 

[MagiusNecros]

Did someone say...JAB CANCELLING??

Count me in!

Jab cancels are always good in my book. Pretty sure Jab 1 > Dash Grab will always connect. Klaw probably works too. Gonna have to test more with Jab 1 > Bowser Bomb on the field later on.

 

[Zigsta]

Jab cancels are always good in my book. Pretty sure Jab 1 > Dash Grab will always connect. Klaw probably works too. Gonna have to test more with Jab 1 > Bowser Bomb on the field later on.

Yeah, all three are all solid in this game. The spacing's different than in Brawl thanks to jab having awful range, but I'm using it more and more.