Data Bowser's Moveset Data & Discussion

[MagiusNecros]

Yeah, all three are all solid in this game. The spacing's different than in Brawl thanks to jab having awful range, but I'm using it more and more.

Just wish I still had my Jab 1 that pulls dweebs towards me for my free grabs, Klaws, and Bowser Bombs with no effort at all. Would do wonders when combined with Rage Bowser.

 

[MrEh]

Basically all we need is frame data and I can math out **** that's possible.


Also, Jab 1 to stutterstep Klaw is a real thing at certain spacing. Opponent cannot roll or spot dodge if done correctly. Not kidding.

 

[Cassius.]

I've (ODDLY, you'll see why that's in caps, continue reading) been having success with grab release DTilt. Certain characters' release animations send them far enough that anything but shielding will get them hit since DTilt apparently comes out fast or something.

I miss Brawl too much guys help

 

[B!squick]

I think it's a bad sign when players of a formerly low tier, now probably mid-ish tier, character miss the game where the character was less viable.

And what's funny is that you could apply that same statement to either Smash4 OR Brawl.

 

[MrEh]

Jab to Bowser Bomb has a 4 frame window in between hits where your opponent can act. That means that they cannot roll or mash out slow moves.

HA

Legit frame traps.

 

[Jerodak]

Jab to Bowser Bomb has a 4 frame window in between hits where your opponent can act. That means that they cannot roll or mash out slow moves.

HA

Legit frame traps.

is this on shield?

 

[B!squick]

is this on shield?

Guessing no.

Sauce, MrEh?

 

[MrEh]

is this on shield?

Oh god no. It's on hit.

Sauce, MrEh?

Own testing based on previously confirmed findings.

Jab into Bomb trades against Robin's 4 frame jab, but loses against faster 3 frame jabs like Mario.

It also beats both rolls and loses to spot dodge, meaning the window is likely 4 frames.

 

[Jerodak]

I've (ODDLY, you'll see why that's in caps, continue reading) been having success with grab release DTilt. Certain characters' release animations send them far enough that anything but shielding will get them hit since DTilt apparently comes out fast or something.

I miss Brawl too much guys help

Honestly I think grab release is still useable in certain ways, it might be worth it to release your opponent once or twice just to see if they do something you can punish for instance, I was playing a Wario that liked to spot dodge after a grab release, so I just fsmashed him and gained a lot of momentum off of it. It's nowhere near as good as Brawl, it's just that now it's used for mix-ups instead of follow-ups. The same goes for when you break out of the opponent's grab, I've seen a few players using grab releases, of course there's a major weakness in the fact that being released from the grab gives you the advantage because you can just block and punish unless the opponent has a reliable shield breaker.

 

[Z1GMA]

I recently unlocked Bowser's Long Range Fire Balls for his nB.
I like it. What are your thoughts on this move?

 

[Jerodak]

I recently unlocked Bowser's Long Range Fire Balls for his nB.
I like it. What are your thoughts on this move?

You trade the raw area coverage and klanking for constant range and useability. It's effective against anyone that doesn't have a projectile, or if the projectile isn't very good vs other projectiles but you aren't going to be forcing any campers to approach with just this, and the fact that it doesn't klank means you can't jump in with it to erase projectiles while also adding percent unless the projectile is specifically designed to be hit like a peanut or maybe a duck hunt can or clay pidgeon but even in those cases, the fireball's hitbox is way more precise than firebreath's and there is more room for error. The fireball isn't particuarly fast, and the hitstun isn't amazing, so you probably won't be getting any follow-ups unless there's a way to edge cancel or some other tech that can allow Bowser to act sooner out of it, this makes it much easier to approach, especially from the air. However, because it does not klank, it beats every non-disjointed attack that hits it, so Diddy kong's monkey flip kick, which klanks through firebreath, or Mario's Nair and Kirby's falling strike of final cutter, which both do the same, can be stuffed with the fireball. The same goes for recoveries which would normally klank the firebreath and make it back to the ledge. However, in the former case, there are often much better options to deal with attacks like those, especially final cutter, which you can easily punish with a kaw or bomb. For offstage, I think this might be where this special shines, because you can fire a fireball early before the opponent is actually in range so that if they continue moving the way they are, then they will bump into it, by the time they've chosen an answer for the fireball, you would probably have recovered then you could either fire again if you think it's appropriate, or you can try going offstage and taking advantage of whatever situation the fireball may have created for you. Keep in mind I haven't actually tested the fireball's edgeguard potential personally, but it seems like at least this much would be posible, and it would be a bit better than just a spurt of fire for similar effect because you wouldn't get as much stun out of it, or be able to start as early.

I suppose you could try to make a campy Bowser build using the fireball with dash klaw or dash slash then going with fast fortress and either slip or turbulent bomb since either would probably be fine, I suppose the turbulent bomb would synergize better with the aforementioned fireball edgeguard though, and dash klaw might be a little better than slash since it would catch people trying to powershield your projectile and get them out of your face, and of course, fast fortress would be useful for escaping pressure and reseting to neutral where you could go back to playing campy. I could see it working well for a more defensively oriented Bowser, but they might still prefer regular firebreath and either the normal and slip bombs over the other two, depends on preference, but that might just be customs in general. Anyway, hope that helps!

 

[MrEh]

I honestly don't like it. You lose the mid-screen zoning ability that regular fire gives.

All fireballs do most of the time is 3% and that's it. That in itself is pitiful. You can't capitalize on it hitting your opponent since Bowser lags for a million years after shooting. Also, just because it's a projectile doesn't mean it forces approaches. A slow laggy projectile that doesn't threaten won't force anyone to approach.


In order for a move to be good, it needs to actually DO something good. While there are certainly more instances where you can shoot a fireball at your opponent opposed to firebreath, the advantage you get hitting your opponent with a fireball is relatively much much lower. The best case scenario is that you fire off a single fireball, it hits for 3%, and you don't get punished for it. And that's the BEST case scenario. If you're hitting someone with more than one fireball in one go, your opponent is terrible of this is online.

Even Fire Roar is better, because Roar actually does something amazing for the one second you can feasibly use it.

 

[Cassius.]

Never mind, I'm totally wrong. But yeah the move isn't that good, you trade too much of what the regular fire breath can do for some buffs that don't matter in the long run.

 

[MrEh]

Reminds me of one of those things that Sliq said way back. If Bowser shot REALLY SLOW moving fireballs that you could walk or run behind, that would be legit.

Unfortunately, the fireball we got was nowhere close. Bowser lags for a billion years after firing, so you can't follow up on anything. Moreover, the fireballs disappear quickly and don't travel anywhere near as slow for this to work.

We can always dream though.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Fire Breath or Fire Roar are the way to go.

 

[S_B]

Reminds me of one of those things that Sliq said way back. If Bowser shot REALLY SLOW moving fireballs that you could walk or run behind, that would be legit.

Unfortunately, the fireball we got was nowhere close. Bowser lags for a billion years after firing, so you can't follow up on anything. Moreover, the fireballs disappear quickly and don't travel anywhere near as slow for this to work.

We can always dream though.

This was my exact suggestion as well: either a fireball that would be slow enough that Bowser could use it to create void zones or the ability to temporarily ignite parts of the stage to create those zones.

 

[Zigsta]

Honestly I think grab release is still useable in certain ways, it might be worth it to release your opponent once or twice just to see if they do something you can punish for instance, I was playing a Wario that liked to spot dodge after a grab release, so I just fsmashed him and gained a lot of momentum off of it. It's nowhere near as good as Brawl, it's just that now it's used for mix-ups instead of follow-ups. The same goes for when you break out of the opponent's grab, I've seen a few players using grab releases, of course there's a major weakness in the fact that being released from the grab gives you the advantage because you can just block and punish unless the opponent has a reliable shield breaker.

If you air release an opponent onto a platform, you get a free upsmash. It's glorious.

 

[MrEh]

That's freaking glorious if it's real.

 

[B!squick]

Too bad that would only work once ever. I would probably just go for a throw 99% of the time unless it was low percents and I can trick my opponent into thinking I was just getting too greedy with pummels.

 

[Jerodak]

At low percents forward and back throw actually work extremely well for platform throwing because you can force the opponent to tech on the platform and follow up on it. Down throw also works very well, at least on the platforms at battlefield. It seems to be effective for a bit longer as well because of the lower knockback and generally lower trajectory, I haven't tested this on other platform stages but it probably works similarly well.

Edit: Also, I've noticed something strange a few times in the Mario match-up. You know that really annoying Down throw to up tilt combo? Well, there have been a few times where I was able to shield between the throw and the first up tilt by holding down or down away and shield. I'm not sure if this is due to Mario missing the timing or because of Bowser's weight but I think this is worth looking into, so whenever you fight a Mario, if you get grabbed at low percents try this out and see what happens, just be careful because a few times I messed this up, or maybe the Mario didn't mess up, and I took a bigger combo.

It may also be possible to jump away to avoid the combo but it was much easier pre-patch because of how vectoring worked. It seems a bit harder now, but still possible and also worth looking into, generally by holding up and away and jumping but you gotta be careful cause if you time it wrong then the tilt hits you mid-jump and you're stuck in the air, not as bad as messing up the hold down and shield as far as damage is concerned, but you're stuck in the air without your jump.

 

[RomanceDawn]

Not sure if this has been discussed or found out at all but do a full single jump and air dodge. On the way down just as you hit the floor sideB for the Flying Slam. Bowser does a rapid double grab upon hitting the ground. The first one happens so fast I'm not entirely clear it can even catch the opponent. You can even grab in one direction and immediately in the other. It seems it can be useful for something.

 

[Jerodak]

Hey guys, so in case any of you didn't know, I just finished helping @TruthOrDare run some tests for his thread and we found out something interesting about Rosaluma. It turns out that while she can attack you with Luma during grabs, she actually can't do anything at all during throws. So if you grab Rosalina, you won't get to pummel at all unless she's alone but you can throw immediately without being hit out of the throw. This also goes for our side b since it does count as a throw, so it seems that maybe dash slam might not be so useless in the match-up anymore, and the pivot grab becomes a viable option as long as we instantly throw.

Luma still attacks during shield breaks though, so, yeah...

 

[Karsticles]

Not sure if this has been discussed or found out at all but do a full single jump and air dodge. On the way down just as you hit the floor sideB for the Flying Slam. Bowser does a rapid double grab upon hitting the ground. The first one happens so fast I'm not entirely clear it can even catch the opponent. You can even grab in one direction and immediately in the other. It seems it can be useful for something.

Why not just hop into air dodge canceled side B?

 

[GanonDuck]

Whats the verdict on Bowsers UpTilt? I keep forgetting that move even exists tho i did have some use of it against a shiek i played where i used it with my back turned a few times when he was approaching from the air. The problem is that i cant really tell how punishable it really is on whiff as the few times i used it i hit him with it, the endlag on the move just feels sorta big. And i got a sneaking suspicion that just using angled Ftilts would have been better in that situation

Other then that specific situation and the few times ive been using it as an anti air the move just feels sorta clunky to use.

 

[MrEh]

Utilt is huge and is good for general harassment when people jump off ledges. In neutral it's pretty terrible because it has no hitbox in front of you, and Bowser with his back to his opponent is insanely telegraphed.

As an anti air I usually prefer Usmash though, since you can delay the timing by charging it and autoguard is bonkers.

 

[Anragon]

Utilt is huge and is good for general harassment when people jump off ledges. In neutral it's pretty terrible because it has no hitbox in front of you, and Bowser with his back to his opponent is insanely telegraphed.

As an anti air I usually prefer Usmash though, since you can delay the timing by charging it and autoguard is bonkers.

I prefer Usmash too over U-tilt because yeah dat autoguard...

Use U-tilt if you want a quick, high vertical range move to harm an opponent that is too high for your other moves. Don't forget you can use as a quick kill move too. It's all about the speed in some ways.

 

[rekt]

Why not just hop into air dodge canceled side B?

Been practicing this, it seems like a huge advantage for mindgames.

 

[Jerodak]

Been practicing this, it seems like a huge advantage for mindgames.

Yeah it's great, stuff. Works with any special too, so you can even switch to down B when they are at K.O percents.

 

[rekt]

Yeah it's great, stuff. Works with any special too, so you can even switch to down B when they are at K.O percents.

Duude, and this would include the upward motion?

 

[Jerodak]

Duude, and this would include the upward motion?

Yeah, if you short hop airdodge into down B it'll do the grounded down B so you'll get two hits. This works with every other special too but it's most useful with Up, Side, and Down special. There could be some applications with the flame breath, like maybe if they are going to spot dodge or roll and you know the flame breath will catch it but you can also beat spot dodging with down B if they aren't ready, or more reliably with fortress. So I guess if they roll away and you think they'll try to run or roll back for a punish then firebreath might be a decent option but you'll generally not be doing this in neutral anyway so they shouldn't be rolling from you in the first place, it's best to use when you know an attack is coming.

 

[Melonfrog]

Ok so I am not sure if this was brought up but sometimes I trip people with ground up B. It combos perfectly into down smash aswel. It looks amazing.

How am in doing this? Is there a way to do it consistently?

 

[Jerodak]

Ok so I am not sure if this was brought up but sometimes I trip people with ground up B. It combos perfectly into down smash aswel. It looks amazing.

How am in doing this? Is there a way to do it consistently?

This happens when the opponent falls out of the side B, as far as we know, there is no way to force it to happen, the tripping is just there so that they don't fall out for free and punish us with an Fsmash for hitting them, although I have seen characters tech out of it a few times, you can try to maneuver into them if that happens I guess. Characters teching out of fortress generally happens when they are high percents or you have rage and each of the hits are doing a lot of knockback. I'd avoid using fortress too much at that point, especially near the ledge, I've also had characters fall out near the ledge and hit me.

 

[KingKong_ad]

I really hope we have the frame data of every move >.> But I don't know how to get them. I guess I'll just wait.

 

[MrEh]

We recently did some frame data recording.

I'll post the frames once I confirm the video recordings we got were accurate.

 

[KingKong_ad]

I love you

 

[Jerodak]

We recently did some frame data recording.

I'll post the frames once I confirm the video recordings we got were accurate.

Great stuff! once it's up and ready I'll mark that off the old list!

 

[KingKong_ad]

Im tyring to find a way to force the tripping with upb, sounds promising for the moment. I need more testing.

 

[MrEh]

From what I was testing earlier, any of the hits can trip except for the final one.

However, you need to find a way to get Fortress to un-combo so your opponent can trip out. I find that holding AWAY from your opponent increases the odds that they'll fall out of Fortress into a trip.

It's still inconsistent and bad though.

 

[Zigsta]

I also find that Fortressing through your opponent causes trips more often than just Fortressing in place.

 

[GanonDuck]

So I have no idea if this is common knowledge, a thing that only occurs with Bowser or whatnot. But i've discovered that if you do a jab and walk the oppositt direction you're facing Bowser seem to ignore bits of the part where he walks super slow when you start up his walk. This seem to only work with his jab1 and jab2 and not any other grounded move. Probably not too useful, dunno if it has been mentioned before.