Data Bowser's Moveset Data & Discussion

[LRodC]

If you're talking about down air, I think it can be a good mix up if your opponent isn't expecting it (good players usually don't use stall-then-falls often, so it can be a surprise occasionally), and it does a ton of damage and KB on hit for a stall-then-fall. It can probably also be used as an edgeguard technique versus characters like Cloud or a highly risky suicide option.

It's situational if correctly used, but I wouldn't call it useless.

 

[Arrei]

I'm fond of using the small upward movement during the startup to fake opponents out as a mixup. It'll lose to very large upward hitboxes, but if I'm falling and I know my opponent likes to try and catch me with a dash attack or running Usmash, there's a good chance they'll whiff and take 16-18% instead. Has to be used sparingly, naturally, not really something to pull out more than once or twice.

 

[Big Sean]

I think I found some interesting tech! I found that on some characters, not only is aerial fortress a true combo, but it's also really easy!

bowser jr 80%
- nair 19%
- fair 22%
- uair 20%
- up b 28-31%

CF 80%
- nair 18%
- fair 19%
- uair 20%
- up b 32%

DDD 75%
- nair 18%
- fair 19%
- uair 21%
- up b 29%

As you can see, on these characters aerial up + b is the optimal follow up every time. It's pretty easy to pull off, the trick bing you want to start mashing b when you are in the center of their hit box. bowser jr. has weird numbers because it really matters if the move hits the cart or him. I also tried some other characters that it failed on:

• Bowser
• DK (was able to pull it off once at 80%)
• Sheik (was able to pull it off once at 65%)
• Fox

There are probably other characters this works on, like Roy, ROB and charged Cloud. There are probably other percentages that haven't tested this at that might work.

 

[Arrei]

Optimal in terms of damage, but since it packs virtually no knockback and has catastrophic landing lag, is it ever actually worth it? You're guaranteed to sacrifice an advantage state and get placed in the disadvantage state just to tack on a bit more damage, no? And that's not even getting into the chance of just whiffing and getting horribly punished for it.

 

[Big Sean]

Optimal in terms of damage, but since it packs virtually no knockback and has catastrophic landing lag, is it ever actually worth it? You're guaranteed to sacrifice an advantage state and get placed in the disadvantage state just to tack on a bit more damage, no? And that's not even getting into the chance of just whiffing and getting horribly punished for it.

Well these are pretty critical percentages. Let's say you have a bowser jr. at 80%. You up throw -> up air. Now he's at 100%. With good DI you might not be guaranteed a kill off of up throw. With aerial fortress, the next grab is a guaranteed kill. I personally would give up the neutral depending on if I believe that I was going to get back safely from the ledge against this particular opponent. Or if I was like at 50% I would take it too. Who cares if I eat 15% worth of punish, my opponent is at death percent.

 

[GerudoKong]

So don't quote me on this, but I think Utilt is not at all a true combo for Mario after dthrow at low % against us. I know Mario's dthrow is a weight dependent grab, and after playing a Mario today every time he went for Dthrow Utilt I was able to jump out before a single one. There is a chance he's doing it too slowly, but I feel like its such an easy input that really it just isn't a true combo on us. Obviously Uthrow at low % leads to big combos, but Mario's that don't know this will still go for Dthrow. It might be because of the weight increase in 1.1.5.

 

[Big Sean]

So don't quote me on this, but I think Utilt is not at all a true combo for Mario after dthrow at low % against us. I know Mario's dthrow is a weight dependent grab, and after playing a Mario today every time he went for Dthrow Utilt I was able to jump out before a single one. There is a chance he's doing it too slowly, but I feel like its such an easy input that really it just isn't a true combo on us. Obviously Uthrow at low % leads to big combos, but Mario's that don't know this will still go for Dthrow. It might be because of the weight increase in 1.1.5.

Not only is it not a true combo, but you can actually dair out of it to hard punish down throw.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Mario's throws are weight based. They have more endlag when throwing heavier targets, and we're the heaviest. The increased endlag reduces the potential for true combo followups. Lots of characters get screwed even more when fighting heavy weights, including G&W, Dr. Mario, Captain Falcon, and Roy, giving us extremely manageable matchups against them.

 

[Ghidorah14]

Not only is it not a true combo, but you can actually dair out of it to hard punish down throw.

So in that case, dthrow-upsmash would be better, no?

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

So in that case, dthrow-upsmash would be better, no?

Negative. When Bowser Dairs to combo Break Mario at early %s, it's the landing hit that strikes on the frame Bowser touches the ground. There's nothing for Mario's big head to out-prioritize, he's already hit by Dair's landing long before Usmash could become active.

Note that a lot of Mario's throw combo game is still applicable to Bowser at mid to late %. Yes timing is trickier because followups are so much different to pull off on a heavyweight than a sheik, but Bowser doesn't have exceptional tools to escape followups despite being able to act. Our air dodge is slow, and fortress isn't reliable as an air combo break. Now, Roy or Captain Falcon on the other hand, those two basically lose throw combos in general as long as Bowser makes a minimal effort to DI, double jump, or air dodge.

 

[Jerodak]

I usually find that if I get down-thrown by Mario when my percent is too low, it usually says one or two things:

1.) They don't know the match-up or they just haven't fully gotten the hang of how to play the match-up in the early game. This means there might be other areas of the match-up that I can exploit in ways that I wouldn't be able to vs a more seasoned player.

2.) They might be auto-piloting. Which might not be because they are bad, they are just really used to the combo working and are working against many months of muscle memory, even a competent Mario can make this mistake.

Now there's actually a third option here, but to my knowledge, I haven't encountered it yet, but it's still something worth considering.

3.) They are intentionally playing sub-optimal to gather information on me, or to influence my approach to the match-up.

So, what I like to do after breaking out of Mario's down throw, is starting a run. I'll watch Mario and look for him to uptilt out of hitstun and punish the whiffed uptilt on reaction with a dash grab. The transition from being grabbed and thrown then breaking out only to get my own grab into up throw N-air is really satisfying and can lead to big early-game momentum swings in your favor. Keep in mind, that as your percent goes up, the combo breaker takes longer to initiate until eventually it stops working, this means Mario players who still want to try the throw combo and are aware of it might try holding shield. Keep in mind that the magic number is 20%, when you are at 20% the combo breaker no longer works and you'll just have to brace yourself for the follow-ups. If Mario has enough rage (I think about 120 or so) the combo breaker will not work even if you are at 0, so brace for the follow-ups.

Hope that helps.

 

[GerudoKong]

Negative. When Bowser Dairs to combo Break Mario at early %s, it's the landing hit that strikes on the frame Bowser touches the ground. There's nothing for Mario's big head to out-prioritize, he's already hit by Dair's landing long before Usmash could become active.

Note that a lot of Mario's throw combo game is still applicable to Bowser at mid to late %. Yes timing is trickier because followups are so much different to pull off on a heavyweight than a sheik, but Bowser doesn't have exceptional tools to escape followups despite being able to act. Our air dodge is slow, and fortress isn't reliable as an air combo break. Now, Roy or Captain Falcon on the other hand, those two basically lose throw combos in general as long as Bowser makes a minimal effort to DI, double jump, or air dodge.

What do you think is the best direction to DI Falcon's Dthrow?

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

What do you think is the best direction to DI Falcon's Dthrow?

Directly away. Makes him have to run farther before jumping. If he attempts to followup with Uair anyway, it's a free Dair if you're mashing double jump instead of air dodge. Dair ascends on startup if you double jump first, letting you evade Uair while dealing damage. Save the Dair response as a one trick pony, so that he doesn't bait that response from you with empty hops.

If Falcon's got no experience comboing heavy weights like this and throws you at low %, he often begins dash and jump while still suffering lag from the throw. Only one action can be buffered, so he ends up jumping without a dash, never getting within range of Uair. That gives you a safe landing and tells you what player you're dealing with. What Falcon should actually do is cover Bowser's landing from the ground. And Bowser's natural response to that should be to drift and bomb to a ledge where it's safer. I think I also heard that Falcon's Fthrow,which isn't weight based, combos into a dash attack at precise % ranges. I couldn't tell you how viable that is, but the DI response is the same - away.

 

[ducky98]

This is probably mostly useless, but out of turnaround dash until you get your full momentum back you cancel with any ground move. dsmash fsmash dtilt, but the useful I feel would be ultilt. You can utilize it in juggle opportunities and also in neutral to get a retreating reverse utilt it seems weird. And I just want to see if people can actually get use out of it, or should I just retire the idea.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

Nah, it's a good option. The UTilt frame data is actually decent for the coverage it gives after it was buffed several patches ago. It has a lot of potential when used while walking/crawling (use tilt stick, people) and while pivoting in order to wall/trap opponents. Even Ryu can have trouble breaking through since you can throw 2 reverse UTilts out to beat out most of his approach options.

 

[Jerodak]

It' good to combine micro-spacing techniques with hurtbox shifting moves like F-tilt and even jab. Up-tilt actually extends your hurtbox in front of and above you, which is why it trades so often in situations where it seems like it shouldn't. It still works as an anti-air though, and isn't terrible for whiff punishing and catching rolls.

 

[Big Sean]

I think i discovered something potentially interesting. At 0% you can get a footstool off ZSS. I know that dair is guaranteed off of footstool so at the very least we turned a 19% upthrow -> up tilt combo into a seemingly guaranteed up throw -> footstool -> dair combo for 24%. At 1/4 speed I can pull it off consistently. I don't know much about other characters or other percentages but if it actually is guaranteed and optimal then it seems like worthy tech to learn and figure out the limits of.

 

[Exceladon City]

Hitbox data; where would I find this?

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

Exceladon City We currently don't have hitbox diagrams or the like. Just frame data.

 

[Exceladon City]

Exceladon City We currently don't have hitbox diagrams or the like. Just frame data.

Spoiler

Welp.

 

[brostulip]

Great thread, a big help!

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

brostulip If you're looking for hit box visualization, it exists now on youtube. Chill.

https://www.youtube.com/user/meshimaX/videos

 

[brostulip]

brostulip If you're looking for hit box visualization, it exists now on youtube. Chill.

https://www.youtube.com/user/meshimaX/videos

Thanks! I've been making a set for another SWF thread. Found all this handy to say the least.

 

[S-bow64]

So I wanted to talk about the use of Dair on the ledge.

As a matter of fact, I love to spike and back in Brawl the last hit of Dair would spike but it was really weak and the sweet spot was a little too sweet for my taste to actually land it.

Then one day, I said "screw it, I wanna spike and live through it to savor my mini victory" and the only way to land it, is on stage if the opponent recover high and near the ledge but I wanted to land it on low recovery too, so I tried multiple time on some characters.

The timing is strict as heck but I managed to land it on numerous occasions, on Mario, Marth / Lucina, Falcon and some I don't remember. For that time with Lucina we actually traded and it acted like Wario's Dair, thus the spike was still in effect.

When I want to land it, I jump with tap jump and Dair with C-stick to get it as soon as possible. If you miss you'll eat the 7% get up or maybe worst but for me it's worth it if I can feel it.

Soo I wanted to know if some of you actually do it from time to time and if you know if it's possible on everyone, obviously excluding those who don't snap, 'cause they get it everytime. I only do it in friendlies because it's still risky but I wanna implement it at some point.


Ah ! I don't know if most of you knew about it, because I had people looking at me weird when they see that I use Tap Jump but jumping with stick and imputing an aerial with C-stick at the same time force your character to Short Hop. I use it a lot for turn around Bair.

 

[WolfmanDeerek]

Hello Bowser community. I was wondering how useful Bowser's Dair tech while passing under a platform is.

I noticed that moves which naturally carried characters upward in the air normally got cancelled when input during a platform transition. This sent me into the lab just for a better understanding and did Bowser ever surprise me.

I rarely use him outside of randoms. So yeah... is that Dair tech viable under any circumstances?