Data Bowser's Moveset Data & Discussion

[Dε√ilj∦o]

I actually didnt know that you could jump into your opponent to push them away, thats why I said that. Thank you two for your informations.

 

[Big Sean]

If you want a faster way to initiate an attack while still having coverage, this input might be useful. (Hold jab, hold up, tap jab) this should give you an option select between jab combo and up tilt if done correctly.

What exactly is the option select? If jab 1 hits jab 2 comes out, when on whiff up tilt comes out?

 

[Jerodak]

What exactly is the option select? If jab 1 hits jab 2 comes out, when on whiff up tilt comes out?

Yup, if you get the chance to try it, let me know how it works for you.

 

[pitfall356]

Guys, holy ****. I should have tried labbing nair months ago. Turns out the move eats recoveries and catches snapbacks 100% of the time when used properly.

... With a slight catch. Certain recoveries have a tendency to trade with nair or outright beat it, but it's very useful against certain members of the cast - namely Sheik, since it catches her snap on teleport. Poor Captain Falcon can't recover through it, so going low gets beaten every time with a well-timed nair. Falco often gets taken out of charging his fire, and even the actual movement gets beaten by nair. ZSS outright beats it 9/10 times, the 1/10 being a trade where she takes 6 and you're now in a bad position - But that's just her UpB, while downB gets caught every time. Marth also traded. I will need to do a lot of labbing on which characters this is effective on so we can start to do big damage on recoveries if we don't think we can effectively edgeguard enemies back offstage.

And then, ladies and gentlemen, I accidentally stumbled into nair combos.

If you're trying to land on someone with nair, they're thinking you're suicidal. It's probably true - it's not a move with a ton of priority, has lots of landing lag, is incredible unsafe on shield... But it can combo. After successfully landing nair to various moves, I think I've figured out how best to use this potential combo starter. At the apex of a full jump, start nair and immediately fastfall onto your victim. If all goes well, you should deal 18-24% and they've been popped into the air. In training, it usually lumps the 18% in as 1 hit. The actual launchers on this move appear to be Bowser's feet, and the best spot for nair to hit last with looks like Bowser's tail! So basically, try to hit your victim with Bowser's tail to knock your opponent into the air.

My big, important tips are as follows: Don't land directly on an opponent, try to land more... On their front. Not from above, and definitely not from behind, but attack them diagonally forwards in order to get the correct launching hit. I find the best way to do this is to attempt to land where they're standing, and not much to the left or right aside from this spot. Directly after you land with nair, mash that (mf) jump button and buffer your aerial, or go for utilt at low %. 40% seems to be around the best time to go for this combo, as it connects most easily around this area. Know when it's best to nair combo!

I've only tested these combos with Marth and Mario, both of which eat them reliably. It's pretty close, so I think DI would make this trickier, but I think we can still true combo. All testing was done on training mode without DI, so hopefully this all still holds true. Here are some % ranges that I'm pulling off of Mario:

0% - ~13%: nair -> utilt
15% - ~55%: nair -> nair (MASSIVE DAMAGE)
~34% - ~70%: nair -> fair
~30% - ~60%: nair -> uair (very unreliable, hard to pull off, generally not worth it anyways)

I haven't been able to kill off any of these, as by the time the moves themselves kill, nair pushes them too far away to follow up without DI. Add DI, and I doubt most of these hits will land as long as they do. That said, the window between 40 and 60 seems very promising, allowing most of Bowser's aerials to connect. Hell, I did nair to aerial klaw several times and it looks like it might be true. Will need testing with a partner to confirm. I also managed to pull of nair to footstool, which, if true, will allow for a godly combo: Nair to footstool'd bomb. sakurai pls.

If anyone can pull off nair to bair, let me know. I landed it once but I'm not sure what % I was at, and I didn't even turnaround for it. I think it has to do with actually landing backwards, but it's super hard to pull off.
EDIT: Considering where nair to fair cuts off, I don't think nair to klaw is a true combo. ;(((

 

[Dε√ilj∦o]

I often found myself nair being a combo starter. Its just hard to land the move, its so unsafe, but if you can catch your opponent not shielding or performing a bad move, trying to nair them at very low percents instead of going for a grab->upthrow->utilt would be really rewarding.

I will myself test nair to nair pitfall356 on some treats, and Ill let you guys know if I can get it.

 

[pitfall356]

Just training here, I land nair to nair with ease. Just gotta land it right, that's the hard part.

But holy **** guys I'm ledge guarding other characters and nair as a gimp tool/ledge guard is looking better. Like, why the **** am I stopping Ness' PK Thunder? I don't know! But nair is stopping it 100% from getting to the ledge, let alone the snap.

 

[Boozer]

nair is a pretty legit combo option. its pretty risky but you get a ton of % if you manage to land one successfully and it looks funny

you can also do landing nair > bair for a jank ass kill at about 80/90%. you have to land i think the first two hits? slightly in front of your enemy (so with the legs portion of the attack i guess idk its hard to explain :dog: ) to pop them up for the bair. im not sure if its entirely true but ive gotten it a whoooooooole bunch so :^}

 

[pitfall356]

Further testing has shown me that nair does block most of the cast's recoveries. I didn't realize it was so good.

Glad to have something new to work on. I plan to have nair edgeguarding mastered by the end of the month.

 

[Dε√ilj∦o]

But holy **** guys I'm ledge guarding other characters and nair as a gimp tool/ledge guard is looking better. Like, why the **** am I stopping Ness' PK Thunder? I don't know! But nair is stopping it 100% from getting to the ledge, let alone the snap.

What... ? Wow dam this is scary, PKT2 is like the most powerful recovery in the game but our nair annihilates it? Theres something I dont understand here.

 

[Zigsta]

nair is a pretty legit combo option. its pretty risky but you get a ton of % if you manage to land one successfully and it looks funny

you can also do landing nair > bair for a jank *** kill at about 80/90%. you have to land i think the first two hits? slightly in front of your enemy (so with the legs portion of the attack i guess idk its hard to explain :dog: ) to pop them up for the bair. im not sure if its entirely true but ive gotten it a whoooooooole bunch so :^}

It seems to be true in my playing. Not entirely sure which hits count, but getting enough hits of a falling nair is a nice and easy setup for SH bair. Sometimes you can get Bowser Bomb after falling nair too. :D


Also I have more random ways to take steaming dumps on Samus guys!

-If you time Bowser's dair right when Samus is trying to recover offstage, Samus's Screw Attack will hurt Bowser and stop Bowser from falling, but Samus will get spiked. I'm wondering if this could work with Fox and Falco's up B moves, but I need to test.
-If Samus airdodges upair after your upthrow, bair seems reallyyyyyyyy true. Don't quote me on it since I need to formally test it out more, but I'm getting that more and more against specifically Samus.

 

[Dε√ilj∦o]

-If you time Bowser's dair right when Samus is trying to recover offstage, Samus's Screw Attack will hurt Bowser and stop Bowser from falling, but Samus will get spiked. I'm wondering if this could work with Fox and Falco's up B moves, but I need to test.
-If Samus airdodges upair after your upthrow, bair seems reallyyyyyyyy true. Don't quote me on it since I need to formally test it out more, but I'm getting that more and more against specifically Samus.

Samuses love to camp at the ledge and snap it again because their zair and fair are exceptionnally good for that.. We should always dair spike them indeed.

Edit: Nevermind, sadly Samus doesnt poke her head or the rest of her body enough on the ledge for dair to spike...

 

[pitfall356]

What... ? Wow dam this is scary, PKT2 is like the most powerful recovery in the game but our nair annihilates it? Theres something I dont understand here.

Bowser's limbs are intangible, and it seems to reach through a lot of recoveries and poke enemies out of them. A couple of times, Ness hit me with his recovery and we traded, but the kicker here is that this happened more often when enemies came at me diagonally upwards. Everytime I fastfall-nair'd, I ALWAYS interrupted the flying part of pk thunder, as long as I avoided the explosion.

 

[Dε√ilj∦o]

I never saw anything about Bowser's limbs being intangible during Nair, are you sure about that? Its not written on Kurogane either.

 

[pitfall356]

If that's the case, then we have a really odd move in our hands. I mean, I know that it tends to lose to most aerials, so the fact that it stops recoveries is astounding.

 

[Dε√ilj∦o]

Yep this is where I fail to understand. Our priority and range on this move are average at best and we trade with anything touching Bowser, yet I tested myself your founding on the recoveries and its true that Nair can totally wal them out. To top it all off, we hit 4 times, wich is why Nair can be a decent edgeguarding tool without exploiting recoveries, but by bypassing airdodges if our timing is good.

 

[pitfall356]

Obviously, nair beats any recoveries without hitboxes. Since it's hitboxes are out for so long, it catches ledgesnaps with ease, meaning teleports are way easy to catch - especially Sheik's!(!!!)

What doesn't make sense to me is that it also beats out Ness' recovery, which is one of the strongest attacks in the game. I think it's hilarious! So our new edgeguard goal is to sit on the ledge after we get them out, press back once they're about to recover, doublejump-nair to catch them as they arrive, then quickly mash fortress to get back to ledge. This mixup is mostly for tacking on extra damage so that when we get back on stage, we can land a much safer kill option, like a tilt.

 

[Dε√ilj∦o]

Is there a way that Nair could stage-spike them? Or does it always send them at that 75° angle?

 

[pitfall356]

I don't think it launches hard enough to make a stage spike happen. That said, some testing is in order concerning the direction we're facing when we nair, in seeing if it changes the angle we launch them at.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

I think there's a couple of things we ought to focus on into incorporating into our Bowser game. This is really important, and it'll seal the deal into making us into badasses, once we master it. It started out as a self-note of things to implement. But hey, why not share it to make the crew stronger?

B-Air and F-Smash

Wait, really...? Yeah, really. With the last patch, we are starting to become a menace just by landing a Grab. This means we can kill most of the cast in under 100, let alone with RAGE. Something I haven't been seeing enough is U-Throw to B-Air. We really need more of this. We're talking about a whole game changer. A...thing, that could potentially kill at 60-70. Now, I know it isn't garanteed forever (in terms of percentage, it's mostly effective a higher-mid percentages, like 60-80?), but this just gives us a really powerful option off of RAGE before we can even kill with our U-Throw. This means we could potentially, literally, kill Sheik off of three Grabs if we're up to 150+% or something (U-Throwx2 > U-Throw B-Air).

Now, F-Smash. What's that Pivot Dash thing called, again? You know, the one where you can F-Tilt backwards straight out of a Dash? I dunno if it's just me, but I think the input to Dash Pivoting F-Smash used to be really straight-forward in the first version of the game (literally, F-Smash the other way straight out of Dash). Well, anyway, that option is really good. Our F-Smash sucks, but everybody knows how just ridonculously power it is. I found myself using this to nuke and trap landings. Thing is, Dash Pivoting just makes it that much better, as it gets you out of the way.

Notice how I point this out as if it's pretty much a game-changer- because I feel it is. It's not something you'll just be throwing out in the open, obviously. Just a tidbit, to learn to recognize such situations where it can make the whole difference.


tl;dr: U-Throw to B-Air more and get better at F-Smashing

I took a while to type this up. So, please, if it's posted in the wrong section, do notify me before deleting it or such.

 

[Dε√ilj∦o]

Well this is amoveset discussion thread so where's the problem?

I agree for bair and the fact that we need more of this. two days ago I was at the lab and testing it on many foes and my best punching bag was Captain Falcon. Fast fallers like him, Roy, ZSS Shiek etc take u-throw to bair as a true combo and if you get it at the ledge at around 80%, this is DEATH. At least for Shiek. With DI, Captain Falcon could, maybe, make it backc onsidering he's heavy. But he'll take our flamethrower/Fair edgeguard, and if we land an other grab he will die of uthrow upair still at 110, andm aybe more.

About Fsmash, I dont know; That move is so ridiculously punishable, but if you use it like you would use fTilt to catch an opponent running at you, hey why not. It just has a lot more startup.
The only times I use Fsmash if following a full hop Bair if my opponent comes in, punish rolls but its not consistent, or of course after shieldbreaks.

 

[Jerodak]

So about Nair, I agree that it has potential ascan edgeguard tool but the main issue is the low knockback and poor trajectory. Those are both the main reason why it's usually not worth using as an edgeguard on account of actually making recovery easier for your opponent.

To offset this, I think it's best to only nick your opponent with a weak hit as they are attempting to double jump. This can gimp characters similar to a soft knee.

For snapbacks, ftilt angled down and dtilt are both good options that do not require leaving the stage though they may not hit anyone with enormous magnet hand range on snap. Though you could start using nair, firebreath, or possibly ledge bomb those cases.

About bair, there is much to be said about mastering the art of the trade. If you are fine with the notion that you simply will not be getting jv 3-4 stock wins or whatever then trading is a valuable strategy for Bowser. If used properly you can land bigger hits easier and gradually accumulate rage without falling too far behind in percents.

Fsmash just requires reads and calculated risk taking. Is your opponent afraid of the grab and spot dodging or rolling a lot in certain situations? Well, you might be able to land a free f-smash. This is something I've been trying to get better at, because it can net early knock outs just because your opponent chose to spot dodge or roll.

If they are at the ledge and you know they like to do neutral get up pretty often, fsmash shouldn't have too much trouble catching it. Afraid they may roll or attack instead? Well you can space the f-smash in such a way that it will reliably cover those options while still hitting the neutral get-up you originally meant to cover.

Pivot fsmash is actually pretty cool because it can function similarly to the old drawback fsmash and the new charge animation still reduces the hurtbox as long as it's not from a low attack, which he will stick his nose into.

Sometimes, if my opponent is trying to be cute by spamming pokes in neutral such as jabs, tilts, or certain aerials. I just throw all caution to the wind and unleash the dropkick. If spaced well, this can be a powerful option.

Also, anytime your opponent has basically mind gamed themselves into charging a smash attack, you can easily get the dropkick if you are aware and quick enough to capitalize. Of course, if you know the smash in question has too little cooldown, then use a different punish.

As an aside, upsmash and fsmash do have similar looking animations on charge; use that information however you like.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

About Fsmash, I dont know;

And that's why I mentioned what I did. No one's really dumb enough to just throw it out there. That's not what I had in mind (and if it does happen to work, that doesn't mean it's reliable).

As an aside, upsmash and fsmash do have similar looking anations on charge; use that information however you like.

I think U-Smash is really good, for what it works as. It can make for a good anti-air, assuming your opponent is silly enough to be landing with aerials (I find people who do this either happen out of habit or because I bait for airdodges often, in which case, it can also mean a potential F-Smash, assuming you catch them horizontally well-spaced).

So I've been trying what I said, and I seem to be sort of confirming what I said. On F-Smash, that it. Basically, the input is simple run and then flick to the other side (while in a dash, Bowser goes into his full normal turn-around animation) and simply hit the C-Stick in the opposite direction Bowser's facing. I've been getting this pretty often in my first few friendlies, and it was really amazing (I also happened to land a few in which the opponent would spotdodge right at the edge). Managed to get a few replays, I'm going to see if I can get them up before the patch.

On U-Throw to U-Air: Been moderately successful with it, still don't know the timing. A lot of the time, I found myself having the opponent airdodge through it. However, there was one time I actually took advantage of it and just read the airdodge (people do this A. TON. We could take advantage of it, but I always assume I'm going to combo...)

 

[Dε√ilj∦o]

However, there was one time I actually took advantage of it and just read the airdodge (people do this A. TON. We could take advantage of it, but I always assume I'm going to combo...)

I dont know if this has been stated yet, but when opponents are at too higher percents for Uthrow -> Up air to connect, Bowser can instead double jump down B, wich will hit them if they airdodge. I got this against that other Bowser, this might need some testing factoring different DI etc, but that was amazing and actually reminds me of Shiek's Vanish.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Yeah, it's a thing. But it's also rather gimmicky, as they can choose to jump away (in which case, I think it's rather safe?). Another Bowser did it to me, but it was pretty much a one-time thing. I never really airdodge anymore, especially when Sheik's D-Throwing me.

 

[Dε√ilj∦o]

Same as well. In most cases, I always, always jump away from my opponent and never airdodge. I think once you learned that, you will greatly increase your surviviability (well however I also learned to never roll, but only sidestep, wich sometimes doesnt help me..) wich is why I actually dont have much trouble against said Shieks.

Anyways I dont have anyone to test out that gimmicky Down B, but I think its a thing that would work only against heavy characters airdodging and DI-ing toward you, and maybe faster fallers. Characters with better air mobility and Di-ing away espcially, like Ness, will not get caught by that unfortunately.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

Wow, all these new techniques for Bowser. You guys are hyping me up for when I practice this weekend

I find most semi-competent players will actually double jump out of U-Throw -> U-Air, if they can. Any idea how to deal with that?

Pivot F-Smash is a great mixup when people are getting greedy to kill you - albeit I save it as a desparate measure.

 

[Dε√ilj∦o]

I find most semi-competent players will actually double jump out of U-Throw -> U-Air, if they can. Any idea how to deal with that?

I would simply say memorize the killing percents on every character as it then becomes impossible for them to do anything but DI. But past that point, we still got Klaw, and you can catch their landing after they burned their jump.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

I would simply say memorize the killing percents on every character as it then becomes impossible for them to do anything but DI. But past that point, we still got Klaw, and you can catch their landing after they burned their jump.

I will look over them again. I put more effort into techniques and playstyle than memorizing stuff, although it's probably help. :S

It's partially why I wanted to solo-main Bowser, if only temporarily. Love playing M2, but Bowser was my main since Melee and I wanted to really commit to being a great Bowser player. Figured solo-maining would have given me time to truly master him.

 

[Zigsta]

I find most semi-competent players will actually double jump out of U-Throw -> U-Air, if they can. Any idea how to deal with that?

If your opponents are double jumping out of upthrow > upair, you're either not using the move at the right percent, or you're not inputting the upair fast enough. If you're having issues with timing, try using the c-stick. I use the c-stick for autocancels and throw followups, and I personally have an easier time inputting quicker with it.

On a side note, has anyone played around extensively with using Bowser's dair to stop recoveries offstage? I've been playing around with it more and more, and it can be used to stop Samus's and Roy's recoveries. If you time dair right so that you hit just as the opponent up Bs, the opponent gets spiked, and Bowser gets hit up.

 

[Dε√ilj∦o]

If Bowser's dair wouldnt send him to obliviong and just by 2-3 meters he can recover from, it would be so good, like Kirby's down B. but I guess it would be too good at stoping recoveries.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

If your opponents are double jumping out of upthrow > upair, you're either not using the move at the right percent, or you're not inputting the upair fast enough. If you're having issues with timing, try using the c-stick. I use the c-stick for autocancels and throw followups, and I personally have an easier time inputting quicker with it.

On a side note, has anyone played around extensively with using Bowser's dair to stop recoveries offstage? I've been playing around with it more and more, and it can be used to stop Samus's and Roy's recoveries. If you time dair right so that you hit just as the opponent up Bs, the opponent gets spiked, and Bowser gets hit up.

It isn't really all my opponents. I can catch most people at the right percentage. I started encountering the issue with Ike (which is an MU I have come to really, REALLY hate. Haven't had the chance to try advice given to me in another thread.)

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

On a side note, has anyone played around extensively with using Bowser's dair to stop recoveries offstage? I've been playing around with it more and more, and it can be used to stop Samus's and Roy's recoveries. If you time dair right so that you hit just as the opponent up Bs, the opponent gets spiked, and Bowser gets hit up.

Yes. And I'm pretty sure you asked the same thing the last time you came around. Bowser Bomb also has about the same disjoint as Dair so it can trade too. But obviously that move has a longer startup, and we're talking about recoveries that can take as little as six frames to snap the ledge, like Marth. So the viability of this concept can come into question when mistiming will kill you.

 

[Dε√ilj∦o]

Yes. And I'm pretty sure you asked the same thing the last time you came around. Bowser Bomb also has about the same disjoint as Dair so it can trade too. But obviously that move has a longer startup, and we're talking about recoveries that can take as little as six frames to snap the ledge, like Marth. So the viability of this concept can come into question when mistiming will kill you.

Dam. This looks sick asf, but extremely risky too, unless you are 100% sure your opponent is gonna up b right now, right there.

 

[Zigsta]

Yes. And I'm pretty sure you asked the same thing the last time you came around. Bowser Bomb also has about the same disjoint as Dair so it can trade too. But obviously that move has a longer startup, and we're talking about recoveries that can take as little as six frames to snap the ledge, like Marth. So the viability of this concept can come into question when mistiming will kill you.

It's possible. Thanks!

 

[KillMinusNine]

Sup fellow Bowser player,

Been playing with Bowser since release and wanted to give you a tip I recently discovered with him.

Hop into immediate Down+B is really good mix up / attack / Shield break option. People usually shield if you small hop into them. I have been experimenting with this and got some awesome result lately.

Bowser trajectory after a short hop + down B is nearly unaffected thus making it is an awesome and fearsome spacing tool.

The most important thing about bowser is making sure your opponent fear you. In order to do that you must throw some unpredictable and high reward move. And hop to down+B is excellent for that.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Did some labbing tonight in the discord chat with the new dash attack. The increased damage lets us beat moves that deal 3% or less, rather than clank, at least with the initial 12% hit. So, there's a ton of jabs that we can blast through that would normally stuff our dash grab or clank with dash attack pre-patch. This creates a new Dash approach relationship between grabbing and dash attacking in the neutral.

But perhaps more promising are some specific moves we found dash attack to be effective on. Charizard and Bowser's Neutral B can be cut through with both the early hit of dash attack. This is very critical info for the Charizard MU, and the Bowser ditto, as it allows you to get through these attacks without taking damage. You can also get through the multihits of Greninja's full charged shuriken - a move that is not safe at all to block. The final hit is transcendent, however, so if you're dash attacking at a range where you wouldn't have hit him anyway, you'll get launched by that. There's also Mega Man's Leaf Shield and his initial toss of metal blade. Corrin's charging Fsmash hitbox. Luigi and Dr. Mario's Down B. Palutena's auto reticle. Lucas's Up B projectile and recovery move. Diddy's uncharged Peanut popgun. Meta Knight's neutral B. A lot of this is weird and unorthodox, but I look forward to seeing our dash attack act as a competent zone breaking tool and mixup option.

 

[MagiusNecros]

I might be recycling old information but I was playing around today and you know how Short Hop Bair will auto-cancel and leaves no lag? Well normally if you hold a direction it will have you walking.

However. I have found that if you runoff a platform or the stage and jump and Bair and land with no lag and have a direction pressed...instead of walking you will actually be dashing. As if enough momentum carried over to force a dash instead of putting you into the walk animation.

This allows you to run off a platform or the stage and set up a near instantaneous dash attack or if you just want to haul ass.

I imagine other characters with similar moves can do this as well but it's another option we have.

 

[Crystaljiggs]

Why is this such a awesome move and got buffed in range is this a sigh of greatness

 

[Crystaljiggs]

What do i do with bowsers down A ive never got any use out of it

 

[Ghidorah14]

Thats because it's not very useful.

It can spike at the beginning of the animation, but thats kind of it.

I'd say avoid using it.