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Data Bowser's Moveset Data & Discussion

Jerodak

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 10, 2013
Messages
1,098
Location
North Carolina
NNID
Jerodak
3DS FC
1633-5601-9085


Most Recent Change: I forgot to add information on waveslashing, so I went ahead and fixed that.

Welcome to the post-release Bowser analysis and discussion thread! Much like the previous pre-release thread, we will be looking at Bowser and what he is capable of doing, only now there is way more information and it's actually possible to confirm Bowser's capabilities.

This thread will be a bit different from the previous one however, in that there will be a checklist that I will post below which will list off things that need to be confirmed from the final build. I will compile all the information below as well for easy access to anyone that is interested in what Bowser can do.

To start off, here is the checklist, it may expand overtime so checking it regularly might be a good idea. As things are looked into they will be struck out. Details will then be provided in it's own spoiler to avoid clutter. As I think of more things to add to the list or receive suggestions on things to add the list will expand.

Furthermore, if someone discovers something that isn't listed in the checklist then I'll add it, and automatically strike it out, then include the details in it's own spoiler, so please be sure to check the list to make sure that any discoveries or suggestions you may have aren't already something that's been covered, this will help to reduce clutter, making the thread easier to navigate.

Another change is that I will probably post fewer videos if any at all. Any videos posted will most likely be videos that explicitly cover tech which is relevant to Bowser in some way. I may post a few videos similar to the pre-release discussion where I timestamp a particular part of a match where Bowser does something interesting, but stuff like that may be better left to it's own thread, if anyone disagrees with that then please let me know, preferably via private chat.

Finally, let's do our best to keep this environment as fun as possible while also staying on topic, I certainly do not mind a few deviations or debates here and there but if it seems like the thread is going too far off topic or if a debate is getting too heated then it would be much appreciated if the topic were moved to a more relevant thread, private chat, or dropped. Also, if the thread's format is hard to read or difficult to navigate for some reason please let me know and I'll do what I can to fix it.

Thank you for your time, and please enjoy the thread.

Because these names do not appear anywhere else in the thread at the moment, I'd like to give credit to @darry21, @TruthOrDare, and @Sariel. For help with the testing and confirmation of various things which I have brought up on the forums and for any content that they help me test out in the future. Thanks a lot guys!

By the way, here's a list of Bowser's custom moves http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=130095479 (Thanks to _Rated D.R.K_ for providing the link.)

And here's a link to a video that shows them off, www.youtube.com/watch?v=T77v4m2d77s (Thanks to NinjaLink for the showcase.)

A little tidbit pointed out by Zigsta regarding Bowser's recovery http://imgur.com/IUaIu7z perhaps we could look through off of the tips in case there are more tidbits like this one? I'll add that to the list!

For those of you looking to test your skills or improve a little faster, or maybe if you're just looking for a change of pace from For Glory then here's a list of websites where you might be able to find some rather strong players more consistently. If anyone has a recommendation for one I should add then just let me know in the thread or by PM.

- http://www.smashladder.com/
- http://nintendodojo.com/

  • Put together a comprehensive moveset list detailing the general properties of each move (Damage, shellguard, ect.)
  • Test if Bowser's dash stop cancel is still as good as it was in the VG bootcamp moveset demo.
  • Confirm if Bowser's Grab release game is still viable or not.
  • Confirm where Bowser's disjoints and intangible parts are.
  • Test his combo game, confirming if there are any useful combos or not.
  • Testing how well Bowser makes use of the new game mechanics, (Pivot smashes and tilts, ledge trumping, ect
  • Look through the rest of the tips to confirm if there is any other information relevant to Bowser.
  • Test Bowser's new upsmash and get a better grasp on the Shellguard mechanic
  • Test out Bowser's Tough guy trait.
  • Test the priority on Bowser bomb, what does it win against now?
  • Test the priority on Dair.
  • Test if Bowser has any reliable shield break set-ups.
  • Learn what our option are during klanking with various characters.
  • Compile Hitbox repository.
  • Compile Frame data.
  • Create a comprehensive list of moves which can be punished with big attacks on reaction.

Thanks very much to @KingKong_ad for this contribution http://smashboards.com/threads/bowser-damage-and-killing.382742/

- Nair will combo into utilt only if you land directly upon a medium or light character. It is difficult to do because you suffer a lot of landing lag if you touch the ground during your nair animation. The attack still deals around 15% to 20% damage if you do it right and is a go-to move for the final bosses in Classic Mode.
- First hit of Jab will combo into down b at low percent. If the opponent vectors away, it's possible to escape the range of Bowser's down b. To give people an idea, Bowser's grounded down b hit box extends one whole Megaman out.
- 0% dair against an airborne opponent can chain into itself for a measly extra 2% damage if they don't tech. Total 18%. I was much more impressed by how far Bowser pops up in the air before coming down. You could use that for mind games. Couldn't even cancel the dair off stage in time to recover. I'll have to test it later from a greater launch height.

Dash Stop Cancel
-You still cannot cancel the initial frames of the dash unless it's with an up smash. However, after those initial frames, it's pretty legit. I've been able to cancel into jab, tilt, up tilt, forward smash, and down smash (this one is hard and requires you to recenter the thumb stick).

Grab Release Combo
- Gone. If an opponent escapes a grab, you cannot regrab the escapee for 4 seconds. In this time frame I tried regrabbing with standard grab and command grab. Nothing. Nada. Zilch. Goes right through them. In any case, the release animation didn't allow Bowser to run up in time to follow up anything anyway. It's gone.


  • Confirm if grab armor is indeed removed and if it also applies to command grabs. [Confirmed]
  • Confirm if there are I-frames on throws [Confirmed]
  • Confirm if attacks that snap the ledge can initiate ledge trumps. [Confirmed]



This here isn't a checklist but it contains useful tips to consider when using Bowser. Quotes may be slightly different from the original.

I'd like to bring up a few noticeable bad habits I'm seeing from a lot of Bowsers early on. All of us still waiting for the English release, let's keep this in mind as we try to get the most out of our character.

-Spamming ftilt repeatedly. It doesn't have as much lag as Brawl, but it's still predictable.

-Fairing when someone is on a platform above you. You don't need to use an aerial to punish someone on a platform above you. Don't forget uptilt and upsmash! If they're shielding you can also go for Klaw (if they're thinking you're gonna fair them).

-Falling to the ground and waiting until the very end to bair. This is punishable by shields.

-Not trying to edgeguard. Bowser has strong aerials and a lot better recovery now. Use it!

-More dtilt. It's strong, hits on the ledge, and eats through spotdodges.

-Uptilit after nair. It works in a lot if cases, but in instances where your opponent lands in front of you, try going for something else like jab, grab, or even a fsmash. Get creative!


Early in the Smash 4 metagame (and especially on 3DS where people are getting used to a new control scheme), even when making predictable mistakes, Bowser players will be able to get by due to Bowser's amazing KO power and survivability. But as more and more people really start cracking open this metagame, the more Bowser's weaknesses are gonna be exploited.

Let's all take notes on what we're seeing and hearing now and use that to our advantage moving forward.

As someone who's been playing the sm4sh demo since Sunday, I totally agree with Zigsta on many of his points. I do, however, want to warn people that the 3ds thumbstick takes a lot of getting used to. Already, I've come to the conclusion that there are two extremely favorable positions that we want when we play this game:

- The opponent is off-stage and recovering. We have the option to chase them off-stage, or, in the case of sheik recovering from extremely low, we can wait and punish due to how unsafe most options are upon landing back on stage. Never forget that leaving the ledge and regrabbing the ledge without landing back on stage is one of the unsafest things to do in the game. Your invincibility will not refresh this way and if you try to regrab the ledge too soon, you won't be able to. Punish that if you see it happen or force it to happen with the low knock back of firebreath if you think it's unsafe to be close enough to do a down angled forward tilt.

- Pop the opponent above us. Bowser is effective against characters directly above him. If Sheik managed to land on the ground, that's a prime opportunity to punish because this game offers plenty of methods to punish landing within most distances.

15 Tips for playing Bowser:

1) Flamethrower. Use it for spacing and approach.
2) Suicide with the claw if you are up on the last stock. You earned it!
3) Most projectiles can be destroyed by punching them. Duck Hunt Dog is much more manageable when you know this.
4) Block, then Fortress. All the time.
5) Dont use f.smash unless you know it will hit. Basically, to punish a dash whiff or a broken shield.
6) u.smash has invincibility around your shell. You win all exchanges from opponents above you. Abuse it. Even activated counters will not hit you.
7) Pivot and bair for aerial kills.
8) Learn to land right. Easily what I struggle with most. Nair is instrumental here. Fortress through pursuit attempts.
9) Can you trade hits? Unless it will kill you, do it. Browser is harder to kill than the opponent.
10) You have passive hyper armor at low %. Punch through everything.
11) Is your opponent camping the ledge? Flamethrower and watch them squirm.
12) Jabs and ftilt are your go-to ground Attacks.
13) Chase roll recovers into Klaw.
14) Hop over projectiles into Flamethrower for your approach.
15) Be patient. You have good spacing and defense. Don't feel bad about dashing in and rolling out a few times before committing.

Started as a list of 5...I am no expert, but maybe my knowledge will help others. If anyone can figure out the point behind d.smash, let me know.

Reposted from my GAF post.

Well the first thing that you'll need to know is that it's very important to be patient, Bowser is a large target, and while his mobility isn't too bad, he has a good number of frames on what he does and it's important to save your frames as much as possible to avoid punishment. He also does not have as many approach options as Mario does with his projectile and aerials, and he also lacks the reflector so camping and getting lamed out with be a bigger issue.

Powershielding and klanking will be your friends, you'll find dealing with campers to be a bit easier when you've gotten used to klanking projectiles with attacks like jab, ftilt, and fair. Powershielding is also important because you'll gain shield back faster as you do it, and it makes you harder to shield poke in the long run, Bowser's shield is generally the best in the game, thanks to it's sheer size and his good defensive options.

Make use of Bowser's good defensive tools, his tilts, firebreath, and the fortress give Bowser some really strong defensive options in various situations. The fortress is a very strong OOS option that can punish pretty much anything that's poorly spaced on your shield. Just be careful about moves with high shield stun because doing the the inputs too quickly will make you jump, you'll want to delay a bit so that your inputs will buffer properly, just make sure you don't miss the punish. Also, Bowser's up smash works pretty well as a defensive option thanks to the shellguard property it has while the hitbox is active but that's going to require a good read, it's better to use it as an anti-air.

When moving with Bowser, make use of his run stop, when turning around mid-run, try to avoid just moving the stick in the other direction. Instead, you'll want to return the stick to neutral, then to the other direction, this is a lot faster and can even be used like a Melee dash dance to mix up movement and bait out mistakes. Just be careful not to accidentally stop during the initial dash frames, because that stop animation is pretty bad and can mess you up if you aren't careful.

If you're not killing early, then don't get flustered. Just because you can kill early, doesn't mean you should. Sometimes your opponent just won't give you the opening for big moves like Fsmash, so if you see they are at around 130% then just look for the Side-B. You can pretty much get it in any situation that you'd be able to use dash attack or dash grab, and it will K.O very reliably from around 100-140 depending on the character. Also, if you miss, you won't be punished much harder than if you had missed a dash attack or grab, but you still don't want to just whiff it for no reason. If you're on battlefield, you can even land on the top platform to K.O sooner.

On that note, be aware of all the situations where you can land your bigger punishes, maybe there's an opportunity to Dsmash instead of fortress, or you might be able to Upsmash OOS in a particular situaiton. Some attacks can even be Fsmashed on reaction if you block them. You can also try whiff punishing with pivot tilt and pivot smash against things you'd rather not block, such as command grabs.

Try not to become over reliant on shielding, it'll make you too easy to punish with grabs and shield breakers, Bowser's spotdodge and rolls are actually pretty functional in this game so you can mix those in when you feel they are appropriate and punish the opponent accordingly.

Bowser's edgeguarding is pretty good, most of his tools can be useful for edgeguarding, Dtilt is great for turning an edgeguard into a K.O, especially when the opponent regrabs the ledge or hangs there for too long, you can also hit them out of ledge hopped attacks and most ledge tech options with good timing and anticipation. Dsmash will beat every ledge tech option when spaced properly, it also hits them if they are just idling on the ledge and can even win against certain ledge hop techs but it's by no means an unbeatable edgeguard. Dair can spike without costing you your stock if you know how to use it. Ftilt, especially down angled Ftilt, is good for ledge coverage and can be useful for taking away second jumps. Fair can take away second jumps and has a large hitbox that's can be hard to avoid. Back air will probably turn an edgeguard into a K.O. Up air is a good mix-up to catch anyone trying to jump over your other aerials and can K.O pretty well. Usmash is a little situational, but it can deal with aggressive recoveries like Villager' rocket and Lucario trying to Up-b Into you, it'll also beat any ledge tech option if you space it right, but unlike Dsmash it won't hit them if they just hang out on the ledge and wait. Firebreath is pretty big, making it hard to avoid, and it even has a damaging windbox along it's later half, making it useful for messing with the opponent's spacing while they recover, or for tacking on some free damage while they try to make it back to the stage. With the addition of ledge trumping, Bowser bomb is now a very powerful edge guarding tool that can set up ledge trump back airs or just hit them if they decide to use a ledge attack or ledge hop option.

When using firebreath, remember that the tip does not deal hitstun, so you'll need to be careful of players jumping out of it and punishing you or using reflectors or absorbers from this range. Use it, but don't get too greedy, if you see that they like to try getting absorbs or reflectors though, you can try ending the firebreath just as they would get into this range, then punish the anti-projectile option; you may be surprised how often you could get a free side-b this way.

Outside of that, I can't really think of anything to tell you that you wouldn't have already learned, but if you have any questions then feel free to ask here or on the Q&A thread; hope this helped!


Whirling Fortress
-No longer invincible
-Improved as a recovery move, can go a bit higher by mashing B.
-Is now a multi-hitting move that launches at the end much like the Mach Tornado
-Often trips the opponent, it's possible to follow up if they tripped towards the end of the attack or weren't ready for it.
Spikes opponents that jump into it from below you, possible to spike characters on the ledge if it hits them.

Up smash
-Has shellguard on the active frames of the rising potion of the attack, shellguard nullifies any hitboxes it touches.
-He now spins when he does it.

Down smash
-Disjointed on either side of the attack but not at the top.
-The hitbox is either less active or the cooldown was just increased, don't miss.

Forward smash
-Single hit attack
-Generates large hitbox(es) which covers Bowser's entire body.
-It's now a dropkick.

Jab
-Bowser will slide backwards slightly if he does anything during the ending animation of Jab1
-This can sometimes cause a delayed jab 2 to whiff.
-However, it also allows Bowser to foxtrot in place, which can transition into a dash grab or attack which will both lunge forward.
-Now punches with fists instead of slashing with claws.


Uptilt
-The hitbox got a little better, it now hits tall characters that are standing in front of him but for the most part still hits primarily above and behind him.

Bair
-Increased K.O power.
-Can now be autocanceled.
-Is an aerial drop kick instead of a shell smash.

Fair
-Better hitbox, hits directly below Bowser now.
-The angle of the arm swing is a little different.
-Rising short hopped Fair won't whiff on short characters anymore if spaced properly.


Nair
-Multi hitting
-Spinning attack with all four limbs, similar to Kirby's nair.
-Launches more vertically
-Seems to have better range.

Upair
-Noticeably less start-up.
-Smaller hit box, it doesn't have as full an arc as the old one, not sure about the reach yet.
-Seems to be much easier to hit with but is not as good as K.Os. However, it is much better as a juggling move and still K.Os pretty well for it's speed.

Dair
-Now a Stall-then-fall
-Slightly better shockwave when landing
-Possesses a more powerful spike than the old one, the spike is also at the beginning of the move instead of the end.
-Only does one hit outside of the landing.
-Hitting with the landing seems less punishable, so it's not as bad if you barely miss, but don't become reliant on it.
-He now does a noticable rise while tucking into the the shell.
-Appears to have less start-up and cool down than the old one.
-On hit, it launches the opponent, can be used to K.O.

Bowser Bomb
-Breaks shields when sweet spotted.
-Both hits link more reliably.
-Larger hitbox when landing.
-Appears to have better priority


Flying Slam
-Less range, the disjoint appears to be gone.
-Like all grabs, no longer has grab armor.
-Deals slightly better damage.
-K.Os more reliably
-Can no longer Koopahop.
-Grounded version grabs airborne opponents
-Longer animation when Bowser connects with the grab
-Pops out lower to the ground after impact, lands almost immediately.
-Has a hitbox while Bowser and the victim are hurtling through the air.
-Always results in Bowser's win if used to end the match, no longer goes to sudden death.
- As of patch 1.04 the Bowsercide will either kill Bowser first or force sudden death. [Hopefully this is a glitch.]

Firebreath
-Larger hitboxes, less lag.
-Has a damaging pushbox at the tip which does not reset recoveries.
-Slower to angle and does not seem to reach as high.


I guess this section here will have some mini guides that I'll write up when I'm feeling up to it. If anyone has anything relevant to contribute then please let me know and I'll add it in.

Aside from being highly satisfying when correctly performed, the Dair dunk is a powerful edgeguarding tool that will kill at reasonably early percents and isn't incredibly difficult to land. Not only is it useful for getting kills but it also a powerful threat when the opponent is aware of it, and it can be used to great effect to influence how they choose to recover.

This section will be dedicated to the use and various applications of the Dair dunk, outlining the standard procedure for dunking and going into details on which characters are dunkable, how easily they can be dunked, and when the dunk can be used.

So how does one go about using the dunk? The basic rules are that your opponent should not be low enough to where they can only recover to the ledge, but not so high to where you'd be better off just using up air.

Here's a visual aid for about where the dunk zone on a stage is located, I used yoshi's island because it shows more of the offstage area, areas highlighted in red are either too low or too high, the blue area is the dunk zone, the black area is where you could get a suicide dunk if you wanted. I also didn't like leaving that area empty cause it looked weird.
Dunk_yoshi.png

Keep in mind that this is just a rough depiction of the dunk zone, also keep in mind that you can only DI so far when using Dair, be careful about going out too far.

Now when going about your dunk, you want to stand at the edge of the stage, and wait for the opponent to recover, when you see them commit to a B recovery move, you will punish it with your down air at the start of it's active frames. You will preferably want to clip them just as they are about to cross over the ledge. If done properly, you will hear the tell tell snap sound of the dunk's hitbox connecting and your opponent will plummet to the bottom blastzone as you land on the stage. If you happened to miss your landing, that's ok; the opponent will hit the blast zone before you do.

Now for characters that this can be used on. If anyone feels like there's something extra that I could add, or has information regarding a character not in the list then please let me know.

Little Mac: You're typically going to be using this to punish the jolt haymaker recovery when mac decides to either hit you with it or use it to pass over you while recovering. This actually makes Little Mac good practice for getting used to the dunk, and it's also important for the match-up since it's an extremely easy way to take stocks off of him before he can get a chance to use the K.O punch. If he recovers too low then you can try using firebreath since that's a good option against mac anyway and can encourage him to try going over you or hitting you the next time he tries to use it. If he goes too high then just Fair or Bair him instead.

You can also dunk the rising uppercut, I've only done this once so far but you'll likely get the chance to dunk it if you see mac miss the ledge.

DK: Another easy target, he's large and has a linear recovery, his recovery move is also kinda slow and makes him pretty wide which makes things even easier. The procedure here is about the same, just wait for the commitment and punish it if he's not going for the ledge. If he spooks and starts trying to recover high to avoid the dunk then you can try an Up air or let him finish spinning so you can Fsmash his landing.

Metaknight: When he uses his drill, as long as his hurtbox is in the dunk zone at the time, just be careful cause he might get smart and try to angle the drill into you.

Ike: Aether's hitboxes completely control the area you'd want to be in for the dunk to work and quick draw seems to always slash you before your dunk can come out. It might be possible on side-b at least but I haven't gotten it to work yet, if anyone gets this to work then let me know. In the meantime, back air works great on his side b.

Shulk: Air slash has massive hitboxes, it may be possible but it won't be easy, back slash likely won't be used from where you'd want to initiate the dunk.

Charizard: If up-b misses the ledge then go nuts, not too sure about it's side-b. It could certainly be possible, but it moves quite far very quickly and is very powerful, it may also be armored; it may be better to respect it for now.

That's all for now, if anyone has any questions then let me know; I'll answer them to the best of my ability.


Bowser actually has a very solid moveset for punishing rolls. This will list the tools he has available and how to use them.

Jab: When using Bowser's jab as a roll punisher, you will most likely be spacing so that you are standing in front of the spot where the opponent would be if they rolled into you. Once they roll forward, you will simply throw your jab out on reaction to the roll, it's best to not throw both as soon as possible and instead to delay slightly in case the first hit whiffs.

Dtilt: This works very similarly to jab, you will want to have the same spacing but instead you would Dtilt on reaction. I find that this will quite reliably hit them if I throw the Dtilt on reaction to the roll, the swipes are timed perfectly so that they will usually get hit by the second one and be sent flying or possibly trip if they are at low percents. At high percents, this can be a very good way to seal the opponent's stock, especially if they are a panic roller.

Dair: In my experiences, this has worked surprisingly well, but it certainly has it's risks, and it requires a solid read if you want to use it properly. However, the rewards are also pretty high for landing this since it can very reliably lead into an up smash at lower percents off the ground bounce and at higher percents it can set up for up airs or even K.O on it's own. The risks are that it's easily punished if you miss or if they tech the hit. The way to use this will be to stand in the spot where they will be if they roll forward and do an empty short hop. If they roll forward then throw out the Dair, if not then you can just fast fall to land and retreat or just jump away.

Dsmash: About the same as Dair here, you want to be in the spot that the opponent will be in if they roll forward. I find that this works pretty often when my opponent is at the ledge. A lot of players like to roll forward to go behind you and escape. If you are fighting a player like that, simply charge them, stop where the roll will put them, and down smash. You can even pause for a bit to see if they commit to the roll or not. Of course if you miss then you will probably be punished.

Fortress: This can be used exactly like a Dsmash except it's slightly safer because it can be moved to mess with the opponent's spacing and can even interrupt punish attempts, especially if they don't know about the disjoint on the last hit. It can still be punished pretty easily though, so it wouldn't be good to become reliant on it but it's a good option to use all the same.

Retreating Fair: The timing can be a bit tricky, but this is still a very safe option and has worked for me more often than not, and the reward is pretty good if the Fair connects. Also since retreating Fair isn't an easy thing to punish you can be throwing this out every so often as a poke to cover other options, or just when you think a roll is coming. As long as you are spaced properly and aren't predictably throwing it out, it is unlikely to be punished for this.

Dash attack: This will punish attempts to roll away from you, to use it properly you will want to to do the dash attack later than you normally would, simply run into your opponent and space for the area behind them where the roll would put them. If you know you're fighting a flighty player who loves to roll away to create space or to avoid attacks, or those players that like to run up and back dash backwards multiple times to psych you out, just run into them and follow the pattern. They are most likely expecting you to try hitting the area they are running up to instead of the spot they are rolling back to. Also, Dash attack pops opponents up into the air where we can pressure with aerials and go for landing punishes.

Firebreath: Pretty straightforward and easy to use, and it covers multiple options, just throw it out when you see the roll and make sure you're spaced so that the roll will land them into the breath's hitboxes. It's not a super amazing punish compared to other options, but it's pretty safe as long as you're spaced properly.

Disclaimer: So for those of you who don' t know, Tough guy functions based on the knockback being dealt to Bowser by the attack in question, this can change based on percent, staleness, and rage. It is possible that moves which could have initially been armored could no longer be armored once the opponent is at rage. However, this only applies to moves which only activate tough guy at rather low percents, like Peach's Dair. My tests were done in training mode, so I haven't factored in rage at all. From my initial testing, it seems that max rage could lower the percent threshold by maybe 10~% or so?

I guess I should also mention that this is not meant to be an exhaustive list, there is enough information to understand the general idea of how Tough guy works. I did make sure to include anything that seemed useful in certain match-ups so nothing that's actually important got left out, but generally Tough guy is only really useful in a handful of match-ups anyway. Now, if I get an uproar or something of people wanting to know about stuff like crouching tough-guy vs Jigglypuff's jab then I might go ahead and add the rest in. That aside, enjoy the information!

Credit to @Zapp Branniglenn for his contributions.
The Green Fireball: 0-55%

Fire Jump Punch (Single Coin): 0-999%

Bouncing Fireball -Neutral B 2
(Close hit): 0-55%
(Medium range hit): 0-68%
(Long range hit) : 0-77%

Fiery Jump Punch - Up B 2 (single coin hit): 0-999%

Burial Header - Up B 3 (single coin hit): 0-999%

Dair: 0-6% (First three hits only)
Mr. Saturn: 0-15% (Tilt throw) 0-12% (Smash throw) 0-30% (Sh drop) 0-17% (Float drop)
For the float drop I dropped from about where Peach would space Dair on a standing Bowser.

Dash attack 0-1% Any three hits minus the last one.

Uncharged Waft (Trip): 0-999%

Judge 2: 0-8%

Short Order Chef - Neutral B 3
(Sausage): Can't be armored
(Steak): 0-101%
(Skinny Fish) 0-120%
(Bigger Fish) 0-999%

*I don't know what's up with the bigger fish. The G&W forum's frame data thread says that both fish have the same knockback values. Still, being able to charge through 3 out of 4 is pretty huge, since this is seen as a more practical version of Chef.

Uncharged Arrow: 0-6%
Half charged Arrow: 0%

Fire Arrow - Neutral B 2 (uncharged, direct hit): 0-999%

(half-charged, direct hit): 0-707%

(full charged, direct hit): 0-527%

Quickfire Bow - Neutral B 3 (uncharged): 0-390%

(half-charge): 0-291

(Full charge): 0-140%

Quickfire Bow - Neutral B 3 (uncharged): 0-17%

(half charge): 0-8%

(Full charge): 0-1%

Jumping Headbutt - Side B 2: 0-81%

*Bowser will not get buried by this attack until after this threshold. However, if he is in the air when struck, he will get knocked away at all percents.

Fireball Cannon - Neutral B 3 (weak hit): 0-46%

Spinphony - Up B 3: 0-999%


*This is a little scary, and not in a good way. The move does make every character in the game flinch as they are turned around, except for Bowser, thanks to tough guy. Turning around characters during their recovery won't gimp them because of the small, fixed knockback that refreshes their UpB. However, Bowser will not flinch and will definitely get gimped by this when he uses fortress. Ironically enough, it will also successfully edgeguard Bowser Jr. if he's out of the clown car.

Fast Capsule - Neutral B 2: (weak hit): 0-194%

Fast Fireball - Neutral B 2 (weak hit): 0-193%

Jab (Rapid): 0-162%

Dancing Blade (Rapid): 0-97% All hits except the last one.

Jab 1: 0-74%
Jab 2: 0-57%

Jab: 0-50% All hits except finisher.

Jab (Rapid): 0-120% All hits except the finisher.
Dair: 0-11%

Jab 1: 0-107%

Jab (Close): 0-8%
Jab (Tip): 0-34%

Jab (Rapid): 0-50% All hits except finisher.
Bair (Hit 1): 0%
Bair (Hit 2):0-1%

Clay Pidgeon (Zapper Shots): 0-306% First two shots only.

Jab 1: 0-8%

PK Fire (Pillar): 0-44% Basically every hit after the initial one.
Dtilt: 0-164%
Lasting PK Thunder - Up B 2 (Tail): 0-104%

Jab (Rapid): 0-101% Only works at the very tip.

Dsmash(Uncharged): 0-3% Both hits.
Dsmash(Charged to 6%): 0-2% Both hits.
Dsmash(Charged to 7%): 0-1% Both hits.
Dsmash(Charged to 8%): 0% Both hits. It has to pretty much have just reached an 8% charge, fully charged Dsmash will always work.

Jab 3 (Bury): 0-19%
Jab 3 (Bury) [Deep Breathing]: 0-16%

Pellets (Weak hit): 0-372% All versions, basically mid to max range.
Crash Bomb: 0-190% All hits except the last one, possible for the last hit to whiff if you're moving during the explosion.

Stone Scabbard (Weak hit): 0-999% There's a shockwave when the sword is stabbed into the ground that always gets shrugged off. This hit is the very tip of the shockwave, so it's not likely to happen much in an actual fight. Also I tested this with a small and large physique, there was no difference.

Hey guys, in case you didn't know. Tough guy actually gets noticeably better when Bowser is crouching, it allows him to further armor through attacks which it already worked on, and it actually allows him to armor some attacks that he previously couldn't.

Here are a few examples of how crouching affects attacks which already didn't flinch anyway.

Luigi's fireball will begin to flinch past 82% up from 56%

The weak hits of Peach Dair will now flinch past 51% up from 8%

Toon link's arrows will now flinch past 9% at half charge up from 0% and 24% uncharged, up from 6.

Here are a few attacks which can only be flinched while crouching.

Bowser Jr.'s weak hits of Fsmash from 0-24% with a full charge and from 0-30% uncharged.

Toon link's full charged arrows at 0% only.

Pit's arrows, 0-5% uncharged, 0-2% with one beep, and 0% with two beeps.

Unfortunately, outside of some of the still relatively low percentages, this has a pretty significant limitation, and that is that Bowser MUST be crouching, in place, doing absolutely nothing else. If he's crawling, or using dtilt, it no longer counts as crouching and Bowser will only have normal tough guy until whatever he's doing is finished. Crouching against attacks like Palutena's jab, or Ness's PK fire will not be effective because of a first hit that pops Bowser into the air, which negates the crouch animation.

I imagine that it could be possible to use this in the luigi match-up to soak a fireball while crouching then immediately throw a down tilt, jab or other attack without going through shield release frames or having to time a powershield. Against Peach perhaps Bowser could crouch against the weak hits of Dair and powershield the last hit for more advantage, I suppose this would technically make his punish slightly better as well because he'd build up rage from the non-launching hits. I'm not exactly sure how useful this will be, but I thought it'd at least be good for everyone to know.

Hope this helps!

Edit: I haven't finished yet, but I decided to take a break. Figured I might as well post my current findings, also it appears I may have missed a few things from my previous test, so I went and added anything I didn't notice before.

"Tough Guy" Crouch Data

The format is the name of move, the highest percent standing tough guy works at, and the highest percent that crouching works. If the first percent value is 0 then that means it is while crouching only, unless stated otherwise.

Fireball 56-82%
Bouncing Fireball - Neutral B 2
(Close hit): 56-82%
(Medium hit): 69-95%
(Long range hit): 78-113%

Fast Fireball – Neutral B 2: 194-298%

Garlic Breath – Neutral B 3 (stun hit): 0-999%

*Bowser armors the close hitbox that stuns, but not the farther hitbox that trips him.

Dair 8-51%
Saturn 15-28% (tilt) 12-22% (smash) 30-41 (SH drop) 17-36%(Float drop, results may vary.)

Jumping Headbutt – Side B 2: 82-101%

Short Order Chef – Neutral B 3
(sausages) still can't armor
(Steak): 102-256%
(Skinny Fish): 121-300

Quickfire Bow – Neutral B 3
(uncharged): 18-50%
(Half charge) 9-30%
(Full charge): 2-16%

Nayru's Rejection – Neutral B 2: 0-40%

*Bowser still gets flipped, but doesn't flinch.

Nayru’s love 0-30%

Fsmash 0-30% Uncharged 0-24% Full charge
Dash attack 1-18%
Jab1 0-18%

Dizzy whistle – Down B 3: 0-999%

*Bowser is spun around, but will not flinch.

Fast Capsule – Neutral B 2 (weak hit): 195-297%

Double Spring – Neutral B 2 (falling spring): 0-8%

Charge Shot – Neutral B 1 (uncharged): 0-2%

*with a short, medium width mii.

Arrow 0% (Full) 0-9% (Half) 6-24% (uncharged)
Fire Arrow – Neutral B 2
(half charged, direct hit): 708-889%
(full charged, direct hit): 528-664%

Quickfire Bow – Neutral B 3
(uncharged): 391-572%
(half charge): 292-427%
(full charge): 141-208%

Dense Charge shot – Neutral B 2 (uncharged): 0%
uncharged shot 0-2%

Blast shot – Neutral B 2 (uncharged): 0-999%

Arrow (uncharged) 0-5% 0-2% (one beep) 0% (two beeps)

Quick Dedede Jump – Up B 3 (star hit): 0-4%

Crash bomb 190%-312%
Pellets 372-510%

Jab1 14-41%
Jab2 14-41%
Dtilt 164-209%
Lasting PK Thunder – UP B 2 (tail): 105-150%

Jab1 74-119%
Jab2 57-94%

Jab 50-96%

Jab1 107-176%
Nair (Weak) 0-2%

Fire Fang – Neutral B 2 (weak multi hit): 0-999%
Fireball Cannon – Neutral B 3 (weak hit): 47-92%

Piercing Aura Sphere – Neutral B 3 (no charge): 0-44

*highly affected by aura. These results were found by maintaining 0% on Lucario. This also only applies to releasing the sphere on the earliest possible frame. Any amount of charge after cannot be armored.

Laser 0-999%
Explosive Blaster – Neutral B 2 (weak multi hit): 0-999%

Jab (tip) 34-74%
Jab (close) 8-44%

Rapid Jab 0-43% This works while standing, I just forgot to add it in my previous list.

Jab1 8-26%
Dtilt 0%
Backwards Arm Rotor – Side B 3 (ROB facing Bowser, first hit only): 0-999%

Slip Gyro – Down B 3 (when sliding across the ground): 0-5%

*Bowser will not trip like other characters, but if its flying through the air, it can't be armored



So after some retesting, I found out that Bumpers must interact with bounding boxes and not hurt boxes.
This means that the results I put in here previously were inaccurate so I decided to make necessary changes to keep the data accurate. For those of you who may have read it already, the general gist is that Bowser's arms are not as intangible as I first thought. They are intangible when the hitbox is active, but they are vulnerable afterwards. It appears the hand can be hit during idle stance as well.

For those who have not, I'll sum up everything that you need to know.

Every attack that uses Bowser's arms make the arms completely intangible while the hitbox is active. Once the hitbox is no longer active, the arm can then be hurt; this will be most noticeable on Ftilt and Jab where the arm sticks out for a while after the attack is over. Furthermore, Bowser's nose pokes out during many of these attacks, which effectively makes the disjoint smaller from certain angles, might be worth it to go into training mode on 1/4th speed to see exactly where the nose protrudes during each attack so that you can be better aware of your spacing. Grabs do not count, including the command grab, but the pivot grab does have a significant disjointed range.

The only attack with intangible legs is Fsmash, and they are intangible until just after he touches the ground. On the other hand, during Bair and dash attack, Bowser's legs can be hurt.

Down smash is disjointed on both sides during the entire active portion, the disjoint is a single hand's length from his shell on either side. Up b is disjointed as well but only during the last hit.

Crouching makes Bowser shorter, but also wider. Jumping puts Bowser into a terrible jumpsquat animation that makes Bowser wider as well, turning appears to make him momentarily wider. Upsmash initially makes Bowser shorter than he is while crouching, but he then rises back up a bit if it's charged, mainly on his backside.

Up air is intangible at the top of his head, it's significant enough to win against Link's Dair if it's perfectly spaced, even from directly below.

As always, hope this helps!


So, that's a lot of disjointed stuff, if these tests are indeed accurate! Feel free to try these tests out yourselves in training mode if you need a visual aid of any kind or just want to confirm it for yourselves. I'll also answer any questions that come up as best I can, and please let me know if I overlooked something.[/spoiler]


Since there's been talk about Dsmash, I decided to look into it.

Guys, the new Dsmash seems pretty amazing, the range is a lot better than it looks, it's actually about the same as Brawl's and will cover most of a battlefield platform if you're standing in the middle of it. Now here's the best part, Remember how Bowser spun on a non central axis to get the range that it had in Brawl? Well i'm sure you noticed that he doesn't do that anymore, however there's a ring of dust on the ground on either side of Bowser that shows how far it actually reaches on either side of him, this part of the hitbox isn't overlapping any part of Bowser's body which means that the Dsmash is disjointed!

I have tested this, by Dsmashing a Bob-omb with that part of the hitbox, it exploded, Bowser took no damage. Also, when I was testing it against Luigi, it will always klank his fireballs before they even get close enough to touch Bowser while he's spinning and the CPU NEVER challenges the Dsmash, it'll just stand around and wait for your hitbox to leave, which is unfortunately is a bit earlier than it might look, Bowser is still spinning a bit after the hitbox is gone. However, I think that's a fair trade for such an amazing hitbox. I haven't tested how high the disjoint reaches, but from what I've seen it does not appear to be disjointed at the very top of the shell, it seems to just be on either side of him, I tried testing with the back end and wasn't able to find a range where explosions didn't hit me, but I think it's just cause of the animation making the shell extend just a little bit too far that way, For the most part, any attacks that aren't disjoints are probably going to lose.

What do you guys think about this? I'l update this over time as I find more uses for this attack, I've seen a lot of flak and confusion surrounding this attack, so maybe a bit of analysis and exploration into it's potential will yield some pleasant surprises.


This could probably also be called "Fast-cancel" or "Quick-cancel" for short.

By the way, in case no one knew this, you can fastfall rising SH Fair and Bair and still autocancel, the timing is about the same on both aerials, it's easier to practice with Fair since there's more of a visual indicator. Make sure to practice this on a sandbag or character since the timing when you actually hit is a bit different than when you miss. It's possible to do the fastfall too quickly if you connect with it then just go into landing lag, which sucks.

You want to complete the swipe, and look for the other hand, which isn't swiping to lift up next to him, at that part of the animation you will wait for half a second then you can fast fall. All this does, is shave off a few extra frames from your attack since you're spending less time in the air where you unable to do anything, it also makes following up on the fair a little better because you have extra frames to follow up with, the same goes for Bair, although you probably won't need the extra frames for follow-ups but it still makes it just a bit safer if you miss, and fast fall into shield seems pretty strong in this game.

Also, this does appear to give us a true combo option, if you're jumping towards a taller character and land the Fair, fast fall jab1 will connect before they can do anything. This seems to work starting from 18% probably to around 50% That's around the range it registers as a true combo in training mode, hopefully the combo counter in this game is more reliable than Brawl's. Anyway, even if they are out of range, you get a tech chase opportunity when they land if they tech, you could also try to hit them with a dash attack if they miss the tech and start juggling. By the way, Ftilt works too but only in the later percents, keep in mind that this isn't very easy to do since hit lag on Fair seems a bit higher than it did in Brawl but if you'r doing it correctly then it should register on the combo counter, also the second hit of jab will not combo out of the first hit in this situation for some odd reason. If anyone finds any other good uses for this then let me know, I'll add what you find to the OP.

Until the change to side B is hopefully fixed, here is a list detailing how the bowsercide works on each stage.
Thanks to @-Kagato- and @Zigsta for the contribution.

I examined all the Omega stages as well as any stage I think might become legal as a neutral or counterpick, and these are my findings:

*Note: Unlockable stages will be added as I unlock them

Normal Stage Sudden Death
Final Destination
Delfino Plaza
Castle Siege
Custom Stages (wont be used, but thought it would be nice to know)
Duck Hunt

Normal Stage Bowser Dies First
Battlefield
Town and City
Skyloft
Halberd
Mushroom Kingdom U
Lylat
Town and City
Pilotwings
Wuhu Island
Wooly World
Yoshi's Island
Smashville

Omega Stage Sudden Death
Delfino Plaza
Halberd
Mario Circuit
Mario Circuit (Brawl)
Bridge of Eldin
Pyrosphere
Norfair
Port Town Aero Drive
Wooly World
Yoshi's Island
Great Cave Offensive
Orbital Gate Assault
Mario Galaxy
Palutena's Temple
Skyworld
Garden of Hope
Wii Fit Studio
Gaur Plain
75m
Wrecking Crew
Pilotwings
Wuhu Island
Wily Castle
Smashville
Duck Hunt

Omega Stage Bowser DIes First
Skyloft
Battlefield
Mushroom Kingdom U
Luigi's Mansion
Jungle Hijinks
Hyrule Temple
Lylat Cruise
Kalos Pokemon League
Onett
Coliseum
Castle Seige
Gamer
Town and City
Boxing Ring
Windy Hill Zone

Courtesy of this thread http://smashboards.com/threads/comp...rame-data-for-every-character-round-2.383550/ I went and added the frame data they have so far on Bowser, I'll update it as they change it.


Jab1
Frame 7- 9: 5% 100f/45w 30°
Frame 7- 9: 5% 100f/30w 50°
Frame 7- 9: 5% 100f/18w 85°
Max Damage: 5%
Begins partial invincibility on real frame 7
End partial invincibility on real frame 10
Enables transition to next jab state on real frame 11

Jab2
Frame 9-11: 6.5% 50b/100g (1050g*) 361°
Max Damage: 6.5%
Begins partial invincibility on real frame 9
End partial invincibility on real frame 12

Dash Attack
Frame 11-14: 10%(+1) 110b/35g (490g*) 80°
Frame 15-20: 8%(+1) 80b/30g (360g*) 80°
Max Damage: 10%

F-tilt (high)
Frame 10-14: 12% 45b/83g (1328g*) 361°
Max Damage: 12%
Begins partial invincibility on real frame 10
End partial invincibility on real frame 15

F-tilt (normal)
Frame 10-14: 12% 45b/83g (1328g*) 361°
Max Damage: 12%
Begins partial invincibility on real frame 10
End partial invincibility on real frame 15

F-tilt (low)
Frame 10-14: 12% 45b/83g (1328g*) 361°
Max Damage: 12%
Begins partial invincibility on real frame 10
End partial invincibility on real frame 15

U-tilt
Frame 12-16: 10% 55b/97g (1358g*) 100° Slash
Max Damage: 10%
Begins partial invincibility on real frame 12
End partial invincibility on real frame 17

D-tilt
Frame 10-12: 14% 20b/100g (1800g*) 361° 0.3-Trip
Frame 20-22: 11% 12b/100g (1500g*) 361° 0.3-Trip
Max Damage: 25%
Begins partial invincibility on real frame 10
End partial invincibility on real frame 13
Begins partial invincibility on real frame 20
End partial invincibility on real frame 23

F-smash (normal)
Frame 22-23: 23% 25b/98g (2646g*) 361°
Frame 22-23: 20% 25b/98g (2352g*) 361°
Frame 24-27: 17% 10b/103g (2163g*) 361°
Frame 24-27: 14% 10b/103g (1854g*) 361°
Max Damage: 23%
Smash charge window on real frame 4
Begins partial invincibility on real frame 20
Begins partial invincibility on real frame 20
End partial invincibility on real frame 26

U-smash
Frame 16-23: 20% 23b/90g (2160g*) 90° Pierce
Frame 16-23: 15% 23b/100g (1900g*) 70° Pierce
Frame 16-23: 15% 23b/100g (1900g*) 120° Pierce
Frame 37-37: 6% 80b/100g (1000g*) 70° Ground-Target-Only
Max Damage: 26%
Smash charge window on real frame 10
Begins partial invincibility on real frame 14
Begins partial invincibility on real frame 14
End partial invincibility on real frame 28

D-smash
Frame 10-10: 2% 100f/60w 150° Slash
Frame 14-15: [1%]x5 40b/50g (250g*) 150° Slash
Frame 14-15: [1%]x5 40b/50g (250g*) 190° Slash
Frame 31-31: 9% 40b/130g (1690g*) 60° Slash
Max Damage: 16%
Smash charge window on real frame 5
End partial invincibility on real frame 14
End partial invincibility on real frame 48

Nair
Frame 8-29: 5% 20b/50g (450g*) 75°
Frame 14-29: 5% 20b/100g (900g*) 75°
Frame 18-29: 5% 60b/90g (810g*) 75°
Max Damage: 5%
Enables transition to Nair landing state (landing lag) on real frame 4
Cancels transition to Nair landing state (landing lag) on real frame 45

Fair
Frame 11-14: 13% 40b/80g (1360g*) 361° Slash
Frame 11-14: 12% 40b/80g (1280g*) 361° Slash
Frame 11-14: 11% 40b/80g (1200g*) 361° Slash
Max Damage: 13%
Enables transition to Fair landing state (landing lag) on real frame 4
Cancels transition to Fair landing state (landing lag) on real frame 31

Bair
Frame 9-11: 19% 20b/88g (2024g*) 35°
Max Damage: 19%
Enables transition to Bair landing state (landing lag) on real frame 3
Cancels transition to Bair landing state (landing lag) on real frame 31

Uair
Frame 9-13: 15% 35b/85g (1615g*) 85°
Max Damage: 15%
Enables transition to Uair landing state (landing lag) on real frame 3
Begins partial invincibility on real frame 3
Begins partial invincibility on real frame 3
End partial invincibility on real frame 14
Cancels transition to Uair landing state (landing lag) on real frame 40

Dair
Frame 17-24: 16% 30b/100g (2000g*) 275° Pierce
Frame 25-49: 16% 30b/100g (2000g*) 56° Pierce
Max Damage: 16%
Enables transition to Dair landing state (landing lag) on real frame 14
End partial invincibility on real frame 61
Cancels transition to Dair landing state (landing lag) on real frame 70

Dair Landing
Frame 1- 3: 2% 60b/30g (180g*) 20° Slash Ground-Target-Only
Max Damage: 2%
End partial invincibility on real frame 16

Grab
Frame 9-10: Grab
Enables state transition on real frame 11

Dash Grab
Frame 10-11: Grab
Enables state transition on real frame 12

Pivot Grab
Frame 11-12: Grab
Enables state transition on real frame 13

Pummel
Frame 9-10: 3.1% 100f/30w 361°
Max Damage: 3.1%

F-throw
Frame 1- 2: 12% 60b/66g (1056g*) 45°
Max Damage: 12%

B-throw
Frame 1- 2: 12% 60b/66g (1056g*) 45°
Max Damage: 12%

U-throw
Frame 1-20: 2% 90b/80g (480g*) 70°
Frame 21-24: [1%]x7 0b/100g (500g*) 0° Slash
Max Damage: 10%
End partial invincibility on real frame 50

D-throw
Frame 1-44: 2% 90b/80g (480g*) 50°
Frame 45-46: 10% 0b/100g (1400g*) 0°
Max Damage: 12%

Flying Slam (ground grab)
Frame 8-8: Grab

Dash Slam (ground grab)
Frame 9-21: [0%]x7 100f/40w 10° 0.0-Hitlag 0.0-SDI
Frame 22-22: Grab

Dash Slash (ground non-grab)
Frame 11-15: [0%]x2 100f/40w 10° 0.0-Hitlag 0.0-SDI
Frame 17-22: 8% 80b/50g (600g*) 55° 1.5-Hitlag Slash
Frame 23-28: 6% 60b/50g (500g*) 60° 1.2-Hitlag Slash
Max Damage: 8%

Flying Slam (aerial grab)
Frame 17- 17: Grab

Dash Slam (aerial grab)
Frame 9-16: [0%]x4 100f/40w 10° 0.0-Hitlag 0.0-SDI
Frame 15-16: Grab

Dash Slash (aerial non-grab)
Frame 4-14: [0%]x5 100f/40w 10° 0.0-Hitlag 0.0-SDI
Frame 15-17: 8% 85b/65g (780g*) 50° 1.8-Hitlag Slash
Frame 18-23: 6% 60b/75g (750g*) 55° 1.5-Hitlag Slash
Max Damage: 8%

Flying Slam (throw attack)
Frame 1- 2: 18% 80b/60g (1320g*) 60°
Max Damage: 18%
Enables state transition on real frame 8

Dash Slam (throw attack)
Frame 1- 2: 12% 80b/60g (960g*) 45°
Max Damage: 12%
Enables state transition on real frame 8

Whirling Fortress (ground)
Frame 6-38: [1%]x7 100f/70w 180° 0.8-SDI Slash
Frame 6-38: [1%]x7 100f/50w 180° 0.8-SDI Slash
Frame 39-39: 4% 70b/150g (1200g*) 60° Slash
Max Damage: 11%
Enables state transition on real frame 40

Sliding Fortress (ground)
Frame 12-43: 6% 75b/100g (1000g*) 80° Slash
Max Damage: 6%
Enables state transition on real frame 50

Whirling Fortress (aerial)
Frame 6- 7: 10%(+3) 80b/60g (840g*) 80°
Frame 8-11: [3%]x5 50b/20g (140g*) 84° Slash
Frame 28-31: [2%]x5 50b/20g (120g*) 84° Slash
Max Damage: 35%
Enables forward ledge grabs on real frame 8
Enables all ledge grabs on real frame 48
Enables state transition on real frame 51

Flying Fortress (aerial)
Frame 10-11: 4% 90b/10g (80g*) 40° Slash
Frame 12-38: 2% 90b/10g (60g*) 40° Slash
Max Damage: 4%
Enables forward ledge grabs on real frame 11
Enables all ledge grabs on real frame 50

Sliding Fortress (aerial)
Frame 10-51: 6% 50b/100g (1000g*) 80° Slash
Max Damage: 6%
Enables forward ledge grabs on real frame 12
Enables all ledge grabs on real frame 52
Enables state transition on real frame 65

Bowser Bomb (ground)
Frame 11-11: 4% 100f/90w 85°
Frame 38-39: 20%(+5) 45b/75g (1800g*) 76°
Max Damage: 24%
Enables state transition on real frame 12

Turbulent Bomb (ground)
Frame 15-15: 4% 100f/95w 53°
Frame 42-43: 9%(+5) 45b/75g (975g*) 45°
Max Damage: 13%
Enables state transition on real frame 16

Slip Bomb (ground)
Frame 29-30: 18%(+5) 45b/75g (1650g*) 76°
Max Damage: 18%

Bowser Bomb (aerial)
Frame 32-33: 20%(+5) 45b/75g (1800g*) 76°
Max Damage: 20%
Enables state transition on real frame 32

Turbulent Bomb (aerial)
Frame 32-33: 9%(+5) 45b/75g (975g*) 45° Aerial-Target-Only
Max Damage: 9%
Enables state transition on real frame 32

Slip Bomb (aerial)
Frame 23-24: 18%(+5) 45b/75g (1650g*) 76°
Max Damage: 18%
Enables state transition on real frame 23

Bowser Bomb (landing)
Frame 1- 2: 11%(+5) 60b/72g (1080g*) 76° Ground-Target-Only
Max Damage: 11%

Turbulent Bomb (landing)
Frame 1- 2: 9%(+5) 60b/72g (936g*) 45° Ground-Target-Only
Frame 3- 5: 0% 88b/93g (372g*) 38°
Frame 3- 5: 0% 80b/85g (340g*) 38°
Frame 6-14: 0% 85b/88g (352g*) 38°
Frame 6-14: 0% 75b/80g (320g*) 38°
Max Damage: 9%

Slip Bomb (landing)
Frame 4- 4: 2% 60b/120g (720g*) 80° 1.0-Trip 0.0-Hitlag Slip Ground-Target-Only
Frame 4- 6: 13%(+5) 60b/72g (1224g*) 76° Ground-Target-Only
Max Damage: 13%

Big YES.

Jab 1 is +7 on hit. What does that mean for us? A lot. It confirms a lot of things that have been working for me in matches, but I wasn't sure how real it was. It's real.



WHY THIS IS AMAZING?
Imagine a situation where you hit your opponent with Bowser's Jab. This should be happening a lot in your matches, since Jab is Bowser's fastest normal and is his go-to poke. You're goddamn Bowser, it's not like you have anything safer to be throwing out against your opponent.

+7 advantage on hit from a Jab is utterly bonkers. To put things in perspective, Bowser's Jab 1 in Brawl was -17 on hit. MINUS SEVENTEEN.. While Jab is no longer the insanely safe poke it was in Brawl due to the huge range nerf, the current Jab has gained the disgusting ability to frame trap people.



FRAME TRAPS SOUND LIKE FUN! HOW CAN I ABUSE THIS?
After you hit your opponent with Jab 1, you recover 7 frames faster than your opponent. That means that you have roughly 0.117 seconds to do whatever you want to your opponent. A whole 0.117 seconds! Wow! Sounds like crap you say? It's not.

While 7 frames isn't enough time for Jab 1 to combo into most other moves, there are some attacks that can be used to frame trap your opponent, basically covering a bunch of their offensive and defensive options. If you do a different attack after a successful Jab 1, you can smack your opponent before your opponent can hit you in many situations.



HOW ABOUT AN EXAMPLE?
Let's look at someone like Marth. Marth is easy to frame trap with Jab because his grounded moves actually aren't very quick, allowing you to hit him during the startup of many of his attacks and options. Marth's fastest grounded move is his Jab, which hits on frame 5. So let's use that as an example.

You hit Marth with Jab 1, and you're now at +7 advantage. You then use a grounded Bowser Bomb, which hits on frame 11. That means that there's 4 frames inbetween the Jab 1 and Bowser Bomb where your opponent can hit you. If Marth tries to mash his Jab in this instance, he will get hit.



THAT'S COOL AND ALL, BUT MY OPPONENT IS JUST GONNA ROLL AWAY FROM ME!
Rolls have startup. Most rolls in this game have 3 frames of startup, and only become invincible on frame 4. Let's say that you try a Dtilt or Ftilt instead of a Bowser Bomb. Both moves hit on frame 10, meaning that your opponent only has 3 frames to stop you in this instance. Since most rolls take 4 frames to become invincible, Bowser will smack them out of their roll startup! If you're up against an opponent who mashes roll as a defensive reaction, this is a good way to blow up their shoddy play.




THIS SOUNDS AMAZING! WHAT CAN MY OPPONENT DO ABOUT THIS?
Your opponent can always just shield your frame traps, since shielding comes out on frame 1. However, if you opted to go for a Bowser Bomb, you might break your opponent's shield if they're not paying attention. Bowser's Dash Grab comes out on frame 10, making it barely fast enough to use for frame traps as well. Spot dodging happens to be fast enough to stop most of Bowser's frame traps. However, Dtilt conveniently hits opponents out of spotdodges very easily, and has a lot of shield push and stun, making it quite safe on block. Dtilt is the go-to move for blowing up defensive reactions to your frame traps. Keep in mind that a handful of characters have moves that come out in 3 frames or less, which prevent you from going for frame traps if they mash and the move has enough range to reach you.



TL:DR
Jab 1 for frame traps is legit. There is no greater joy than jabbing someone, and then hitting them with Bowser Bomb because they were mashing like a scrub.

More cool stuff from MrEh and friends. https://www.youtube.com/watchv=_wpax41DC_Y


"Waveslashing" is a technique that becomes available to Bowser when he's using the side b custom "Dash Slash" There are details on how it's performed in the following spoiler.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGZIa8ZfSlc

Apologies for quality. Just a little compilation attempting to show off some of the movement options that become available.

I found this last night. It would appear special-cancelling either of Bowser's custom Side Bs, followed by crouching allows Bowser to redirect his momentum. He can act out of this motion.

Custom 3 has a much farther range than Custom 2, therefore the momentum you receive does not push you quite as far.

I have no idea how useful this may become (depending on the legality of custom moves in the first place), as it is also fairly difficult to perform, but I feel anything that adds movement options should be shared.
 
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ShadyWolfe

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New Bowser looks great. He was my secondary in Melee and I always have fun playing him but he felt way too disadvantaged in Brawl. Gonna go koopa claw gonna have to play around with him to see what other special moves I want though custom moves may be banned because of the amount of time it will take to set them up.
 
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BSL

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None of his sideB customizations are melee klaw :c
 

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While we won't know for a bit how viable it actually is, I'm glad to see Bowser actually get a solid projectile over his terrible, terrible flame breath. New Flame Breath seems okay now but that Fireball seems like it'll really help Bowser. Since I don't have the game I can't test this; how is the fireball? Does it have acceptable knockback, big ending lag on firing, etc? Anything that would prevent him from using it as a combo tool primarily, because depending on how powerful the knockback is this could be a good tool for starting and following up on a variety of moves.
 

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None of his sideB customizations are melee klaw :c
Implying current Klaw isn't better in every way.


In all seriousness though, they should have just given Bowser the option to bthrow people off the Klaw. Other then that, there would be no reason to use the Melee version really.

...I do miss biting people though.
 
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Hokori

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Knowing around how much range that Fireball truly has would be nice, for starters. I'll likely end up using that over his default regardless though.

In all seriousness though, they should have just given Bowser the option to bthrow people off the Klaw. Other then that, there would be no reason to use the Melee version really.

...I do miss biting people though.
Yeah...B-Throw after Klaw would've been great :ohwell:

As for the biting, at least we still have his taunt. Doesn't that do damage up close? :troll:
 

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I'm probably still going to be an asshole and side-b everyone in this game like I did in Brawl just because.

I am actually really excited to play him. I'm interested to see how he'll develop. I haven't been watching a lot of SM4SH streams just due to time constraints, but I've been hearing and reading good things.
 

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wow, so what is that? There are tips or random facts about certain moves in this game? that's actually amazing
 
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Zigsta

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There's a section called Tips that can be accessed in the demo.
 

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i dont think custom moves will be legal due to balance issues but new fire breath is a great spacer tool when up against rush downs.
 

2fast

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Since I don't have the game I can't test this; how is the fireball? Does it have acceptable knockback, big ending lag on firing, etc? Anything that would prevent him from using it as a combo tool primarily, because depending on how powerful the knockback is this could be a good tool for starting and following up on a variety of moves.
^this.

Does anyone have any information on this or tested the move at all?? I really want to hear some more information regarding his fireball because this seems like something huge for Bowser. Startup, how fast the fireball moves, endlag, hitstun, I would love to know all of this.
 

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can customs be used online, or only in an offline setting?
 

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Yeah, I love all the buffs Bowser got this time. As a Bowser player since Melee, nothing dissapointed me more than how pathetically huge of a target and how slow Bowser was. This time, he's faster and in some ways, stronger. (mild flinch resistance, better whirling fortess, better flame breath, Bowser bomb now trolls shields, FSmash is far more reliable...the list just goes on and on.)
I'm extremely excited for the new Bowser and, alongside Robin, he will be my main once again. Good thing too, I was losing faith in the guy...but my favorite fire turtle is better than ever.
 

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http://youtu.be/stItyZf9kkI?t=24m59s

Latest video of ZeRo's stream. In these matches vs Otori we can pick apart shield damage for some of Bowser's moves since they both shield A LOT. One thing of note is the possibility of 0% Bowser forward throw leading into a dash attack (go to 29:58). It looked like Otori still hit the ground and messed up his tech, but even so, we might be able to do something here, like if it's possible to move sooner than ZeRo had.

EDIT: For clarification.
 
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Zigsta

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Thanks for sharing that, Ultima.

I'd like to bring up a few noticeable bad habits I'm seeing from a lot of Bowsers early on. All of us still waiting for the English release, let's keep this in mind as we try to get the most out of our character.

-Spamming ftilt repeatedly. It doesn't have as much lag as Brawl, but it's still predictable.

-Fairing when someone is on a platform above you. You don't need to use an aerial to punish someone on a platform above you. Don't forget uptilt and upsmash! If they're shielding you can also go for Klaw (if they're thinking you're gonna fair them).

-Falling to the ground and waiting until the very end to bair. This is punishable by shields.

-Not trying to edgeguard. Bowser has strong aerials and a lot better recovery now. Use it!

-More dtilt. It's strong, hits on the ledge, and eats through spotdodges.

-Uptilit after nair. It works in a lot if cases, but in instances where your opponent lands in front of you, try going for something else like jab, grab, or even a fsmash. Get creative!


Early in the Smash 4 metagame (and especially on 3DS where people are getting used to a new control scheme), even when making predictable mistakes, Bowser players will be able to get by due to Bowser's amazing KO power and survivability. But as more and more people really start cracking open this metagame, the more Bowser's weaknesses are gonna be exploited.

Let's all take notes on what we're seeing and hearing now and use that to our advantage moving forward.
 
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BSL

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I've been saying this everywhere, so I'll say it here too, especially since bowser has strong aerials.

With the new ledge trump mechanic, you can't edge hog. This means either go for a tough edge guard or you fight offstage. Bowser's recovery is better, so fighting offstage isn't as scary anymore.

Get out there and secure some kills!
 

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As someone who's been playing the sm4sh demo since Sunday, I totally agree with Zigsta on many of his points. I do, however, want to warn people that the 3ds thumbstick takes a lot of getting used to. Edgeguarding can be tricky, like you saw with Otori SDs, because the thumbstick isn't as sensitive as what we're used to. Also, Otori and ZeRo seemed to have been playing without knowledge of vectoring, which we've been going wild about since yesterday. Already, I've come to the conclusion that there are two extremely favorable positions that we want when we play this game:

Off-Stage Disadvantage
- The opponent is off-stage and recovering. We have the option to chase them off-stage, or, in the case of sheik recovering from extremely low, we can wait and punish due to how unsafe most options are upon landing back on stage. Never forget that leaving the ledge and regrabbing the ledge without landing back on stage is one of the unsafest things to do in the game. Your invincibility will not refresh this way and if you try to regrab the ledge too soon, you won't be able to. Punish that if you see it happen or force it to happen with the low knock back of firebreath if you think it's unsafe to be close enough to do a down angled forward tilt.

Positional Disadvantage on Attempting to Land
- Pop the opponent above us. For whatever reason, ZeRo did not realize how great Bowser's potency is against characters directly above him. On top of this, thanks to what we know of vectoring, it should be easier to kill off the top than to the sides due to the difference in blast zone distance. If Sheik managed to land on the ground, that's a prime opportunity to punish because this game offers plenty of methods to punish landing within most distances.

Ground game is harder to capitalize on due to the improved potency of rolls with such characters as Link. Villager has one of the most annoying rolls ever, too. You can punish persistent rolling, but the two characters I've mentioned have been able to consistently roll troll Mario just outside of his jab range and it's frustrating as all hell. Luckily, being cornered at the ledge is a positional disadvantage for most characters and Bowser is really good at dealing with characters trying to roll past him.

EDIT: To clarify what BSL is preaching, many characters have recoveries that are so safe, it is better to punish their stage landing. Heck, tether recoveries have received such a buff that I'm scratching my head trying to figure out if you CAN stop it. The only time it's effective is if they are struck far enough that we can full double jump fair/bair and up b back to stage. Clearly, ZeRo is not a Bowser main, so he wasn't taking those risks that we are all used to taking here on the Bowser forums.

@ J Jerodak on Vectoring after being hit: I've managed to decrease the vectors from knockback as early as the first quarter of the trajectory. I've only nailed the input instantly upon being hit several times, but it seems to be lenient. I'll test it more after work.
 
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BSL

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Please, call me BSL hahaha. I forget that my username is very confusing to people who weren't familiar with me before my username change.
 

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@ UltimaLuminaire UltimaLuminaire Thanks a lot for the information, about tethers though, have you tried firebreath or dropping off and putting a hitbox between them and the ledge? I'm pretty sure you can hit them out of their reel in animation before they get the ledge snap.
 

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@ UltimaLuminaire UltimaLuminaire Thanks a lot for the information, about tethers though, have you tried firebreath or dropping off and putting a hitbox between them and the ledge? I'm pretty sure you can hit them out of their reel in animation before they get the ledge snap.
It's possible to delay the snap and pull in at a low angle (the trick is to not have any directional input when you do this), so you'd need to close the gap without getting hit by the tether hitbox(es) such as in the case of Link. The firebreath needs to come out ASAP to angle down in time before invincibility kicks in. In the situation the flrebreath doesn't do it, if you only tapped B for a short time, you should recover fast enough to punish ledge recovery options. If they're trying to approach the ledge to tether recover from any farther, then they're better off traveling further down so their up-b can get them back up from below the stage. At that point, Bowser can attempt to double jump nuke them as they approach or use the ample window of opportunity to best activate firebreath. They could also try to tether from just below the stage, but if firebreath is already active, they should be forced to use up b. For reference, the distance at which Link can tether from below the stage is at the very edge of the bottom of the screen in the waiting room with Mr. Sandbag. Link can tether from almost two full jumps away from the ledge, making it possible for firebreath's wind effect at the end of the flame to push him out of range for a tether attempt.

EDIT: Further clarification on tether. Testing on a friend's Japanese copy over the phone. Will get more conclusive results tonight. I expect to post more results before 8pm PST. Got invited to a friend's bday at a bar & grill. I'll be meeting my friend with the Japanese copy there. I'm the designated driver, though, so this means I won't be able to post results till past midnight. I'll have a list of things from the OP on a notepad with me and will do what I can. My friends will be drunk, so they won't remember me being a douche at someone's bday lol (nah, I'll be sure to keep it within reason).

@ J Jerodak In regards to attacks that snap onto the ledge, I'm unclear what is meant here. If you're talking tether recoveries, then the initial snap does not ledge trump, but once you pull in, it will immediately ledge trump.
 
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MrEh

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I would assume if people keep spamming rolls, then the usual standby will work.

Spin to win.


Also, Bowser's Jab looks a bit smaller then what it was before, but the frames on it still look really good. Despite what most players think, Jab used to be your go-to poke, not Ftilt. I'm gonna have to test it myself, but that seems to be the case in this game too. It's just that most players don't like using Jab for some reason. lol
 
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UltimaLuminaire

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@ J Jerodak The Bowser Bomb will ledge trump once it snaps the ledge. Any attack that would snap onto the ledge that I've tried has ledge trumped, though there seems to be a delay based on if the character currently grabbing the ledge still has ledge invincibility or not. In such an instance, you will both grab the ledge at the same time and whoever was on the ledge first is trumped after the delay.

@ MrEh MrEh The distance that Link and Villager have on their roll is pretty ridiculous. By the time you fortress towards them, they'll have their shield up and, particularly with Villager, the punishment will be incredible. This is assuming they're rolling away from you and there's room to do so. If they're rolling towards you, that's a win for Bowser. It's actually better to straight up dash attack. I've been really happy with Bowser's dash attack and its usefulness in catching people landing or rolling away.

Here's what I got after messing around on the Japanese release.

Tough Guy
-Between 0 to 30%, Bowser can shrug off knockback up to the power of Megaman's crash bomb.
-Lemons will still cause Bowser to flinch at low %, perhaps because of some jab property.

Shellguard
-No conclusive evidence tonight. It certainly does nothing against bowling balls, hydrants, and Villager's rocket passing overhead.

Dash Stop Cancel
-You still cannot cancel the initial frames of the dash unless it's with an up smash. However, after those initial frames, it's pretty legit. I've been able to cancel into jab, tilt, up tilt, forward smash, and down smash (this one is hard and requires you to recenter the thumb stick).

Grab Release Combo
- Gone. If an opponent escapes a grab, you cannot regrab the escapee for 4 seconds. In this time frame I tried regrabbing with standard grab and command grab. Nothing. Nada. Zilch. Goes right through them. In any case, the release animation didn't allow Bowser to run up in time to follow up anything anyway. It's gone.

Combo
- I debunked the 0% forward throw into dash attack. With vectoring, it wouldn't be possible to reach the opponent in time unless, like Otori, the opponent didn't tech and you managed to catch them with a dash attack similar to a thunders combo.
- Nair will combo into utilt only if you land directly upon a medium or light character. It is difficult to do because you suffer a lot of landing lag if you touch the ground during your nair animation. The attack still deals around 15% to 20% damage if you do it right and is a go-to move for the final bosses in Classic Mode.
- First hit of Jab will combo into down b at low percent. If the opponent vectors away, it's possible to escape the range of Bowser's down b. To give people an idea, Bowser's grounded down b hit box extends one whole Megaman out.
- 0% dair against an airborne opponent can chain into itself for a measly extra 2% damage if they don't tech. Total 18%. I was much more impressed by how far Bowser pops up in the air before coming down. You could use that for mind games. Couldn't even cancel the dair off stage in time to recover. I'll have to test it later from a greater launch height.

Auto-cancel
- You can short hop auto-cancel the bair, though I think people knew this already. It's really fun to do.
- You can full jump and do a bair or fair at the apex before fast falling. This will always auto-cancel.

Pivot
- Pivot grabbing is pretty sweet. The added range is close to an extra 25%. I wish I had a photo, but for the sake of people wanting to test this out, it's pretty fun. Bowser's grab range in this game goes out straight ahead, both normal grab and forward b. The pivot grab will have slightly more range than forward b without the horrendous ending lag.
- Pivot tilts and smashes offered no discernible increase in range. It's easy to accidentally pivot tilt. If you mistime the L button and press it too late, it'll always be a pivot tilt.

Fortress Mashing
- It will extend the apex of the aerial fortress by 2 seconds. The added height is small. Testing the limits of the recovery, you can recover from below Final Destination as long as Bowser's head can be seen above the bottom of the screen. You can make nearly 2 full jumps off stage, be level with the ledge, and still return back. It's awesome.
- If you can position Bowser just in front and below an opponent, up b can be mashed to deal up to 31% damage. This is difficult as **** because you need to follow the opponent's SDI, vectoring, and whatever else.

Vectoring
- Tapping does not work. I have to hold the input at least for a full second to have any effect.
- Trying to override the original input proved unfruitful for lower knockback attacks. Against higher knockback attacks, if I switched inputs fast enough, before traveling half the distance, it's possible to see an effect at the end. The potency of the effect does not appear diminished. I will continue testing this and compare it to other people.

One final note about Klaw. It's got some good range horizontally, however the range in the air is no where near as amazing as it was in Brawl. Don't expect to grab people that far below Bowser. The range extends the full length of Bowser's arm. It has bigger start up, though, so it'll be necessary to learn the timing. It's no where near as difficult to land as Melee Klaw, and we all got used to the timing for that. Also, landing with the Klaw is still lagless. I did not test if fast falling the Klaw through a platform would have the same effect it did in Brawl.

EDIT: Forgot to add observations on nair to up tilt combo mentioned by Zigsta. Added note on auto-cancel and Klaw. More edits for clarity.
 
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MrEh

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Did you test Grab Release into Jab? I figured re-grab wouldn't work because Sakurai specifically added throw invincibility to counter this.

@ MrEh MrEh The distance that Link and Villager have on their roll is pretty ridiculous. By the time you fortress towards them, they'll have their shield up and, particularly with Villager, the punishment will be incredible.
I mean you Fortress when they roll into you. If they roll AWAY from you, then they're pushing themselves closer to the ledge. Win-win.
 

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Did you test Grab Release into Jab? I figured re-grab wouldn't work because Sakurai specifically added throw invincibility to counter this.


I mean you Fortress when they roll into you. If they roll AWAY from you, then they're pushing themselves closer to the ledge. Win-win.
They release farther than the jab can reach and Bowser could not act before the escapee. This was tested on Megaman, Bowser, Pac-man, and Villager. I'll definitely test it out on more characters the next chance I get. Also, agreed on win-win. Being cornered at the ledge is an intense experience.

Speaking of ledge, firebreath against an opponent close to the ledge can lead to an easy 11% or more depending on how long they plan to be in the weak wind portion of the firebreath. The decay is around the same speed as Brawl, so it feels like this larger firebreath shrinks faster. Past the midpoint of decay the firebreath also takes much longer to fully recharge. If firebreath isn't used at the ledge, it's almost never going to do more than 11% damage, even at point blank range with adjustments for vectoring.

EDIT: Just saw this post: http://smashboards.com/threads/new-mechanic-the-rage-effect.368987/
Sonofa... I'm gonna test this on the demo version.
 
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Jerodak

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- Tapping does not work. I have to hold the input at least for a full second to have any effect.
- Trying to override the original input proved unfruitful for lower knockback attacks. Against higher knockback attacks, if I switched inputs fast enough, before traveling half the distance, it's possible to see an effect at the end. The potency of the effect does not appear diminished. I will continue testing this and compare it to other people.
Ok, well that doesn't sound incredibly bad, do you think that you would be able to reliably react by changing your input if someone hit you when you were vectoring their attack unfavorably? Such as using escape vectoring when being hit by something like Falcon Knee or using down towards vectoring against something like Link's back hit of Dsmash? If the time frame for changing your input is unfavorable for reactive vectoring then it may not be as hard to deal with this mechanic at all. Just mixing up your attacks correctly should be enough, if your opponent has a certain habitual vector then you hit them with something that will punish that type of vector, even if they survive it'd put them in a bad position.

Also, I think characters with fast throws, or throws that look visually similar will have an easy time punishing vectoring as well, for instance, if you're megaman, and you grab the opponent, and you know they want to try to vector away from you, Megaman's throws are all pretty fast and somewhat ambiguous, so he might just be able to back throw them to Bair which probably doesn't combo normally but it could combo with them vectoring towards him now. If we look at vectoring this way, it actually has potential to add a level of depth to the game.

The same could also work for later percents when you're on the offensive, if you know they are vectoring towards and down expecting a kill hit, you could just use a weak attack and they are vectoring perfectly for you to follow up. In Bowser's case we could do the Jab to Bowser bomb you mentioned, it could be a solid mix-up. We still don't know if I'm right about any of this or not so I'd like to test Vectoring just a bit more extensively to be sure.
 

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@ J Jerodak I think everyone will be able to act reliably to change an input if it's at higher percent, however, against the examples you provided, unexpected sourspots, and depending on how the opponent chases you, it will not be easy. Assuming you hit with a move that sends them at a direction they weren't expecting at a great enough speed, it is totally possible to get them to the blast zone before they can correct their vectoring.

On Megaman's throw. Megaman's throw has low enough knockback growth that incorrectly predicting it isn't as effective. His throws have enough base knockback to force opponents into the air while giving Megaman space to harass and punish nearby landings (either with up smash or forward smash, things airdoging into he ground or attacking Megaman from above can't save you against).
The issue will become whether you can overcome his momentum by tricking Megaman into the wrong attack option, stopping his momentum with a projectile (firebreath), or landing far enough away that you can start to approach Megaman again. Certain tools make this easier, of course, but Bowser doesn't have access to fancy stuff like reflectors. Knowing your options and mixing them up appropriately will be one of the most intense things about Sm4sh. Also, opponents that vector away from you towards the edge of the stage are putting themselves at a disadvantage in return for escaping immediate retribution. Bowser loves life on the edge.

Let's definitely test our options and post our impressions going forward. I have a good feeling about where we're taking this.
 

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@ UltimaLuminaire UltimaLuminaire

Yeah, like captain falcon's Sour patch combo, if you're expecting fair to kill and they intentionally hit the sour spot first, vectoring against the sweet spot would actually make landing it easier, and if someone panics by trying to readjust to escape vectoring at the last second then that'd be even better.

For throw mix-ups against vectoring, Bowser's forward and back throw might work since the start-up looks a little similar, it could be easy to mix them up in the heat of battle, but I don't think Bowser will have too much trouble with good vectoring since he hits really hard and doesn't care. It could still be good to learn though, since getting a K.O even sooner isn't a bad thing, but I think learning defensive vectoring first might be a little more important than knowing how to punish vectoring.
 

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UltimaLuminaire
I apologize. I didn't test Megaman's lemons at their longer range. Apparently, the lemons lose their jab property at some point and become susceptible to Tough Guy. I will test the exact range at the next opportunity.

http://smashboards.com/threads/ligh...-discovery-thread.367985/page-4#post-17616696
Thank you to this fine gent for discovering this obvious thing.

EDIT: Also from the Megaman forums https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dz_SueIXab8&feature=youtu.be
Get the timing down for Bowser's bair, because this will be useful against most characters. Megaman might be able to up-b cancel the ledge trump to avoid this situation, though. For clarification, even if there's a delay before the trump (the opponent was benefiting from ledge invincibility), once they're trumped, that invincibility is gone.

Also, ZeRo's latest Bowser attempts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53G3xgDJ9y4
ZeRo still isn't listening to Ziggs, and he's not punishing all the dumb mistakes being made at the ledge, but there are improvements. Also, note that Zelda tries to chase Bowser into the air. I don't think it's smart to chase Bowser too high anymore because of how disgusting the hit box is for Bowser's nair, and the fact that it will easily tack on 20%. It is our go-to damage wracking aerial and it's easy to get the positioning down, just so long as we're not too close to the ground to experience the ungodly lading lag. Also, why ZeRo didn't aggressively try to punish Zelda's up b start up (or space himself to do so) is disappointing. I have a buddy that always plays Zelda and you never let them get away with it unless you just can't make it, initial hit box be damned.
 
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