Data Bowser's Moveset Data & Discussion

[MagiusNecros]

Sliding that far is pointless. It's more knowing the amount you can slide to avoid that grab and punish em for it.

Only thing that hypes me is landing a runoff dair spike. Or getting a shield break.

 

[MrEh]

Doing a dash slash into backwards slide Fsmash is the shield grab punisher of justice.

Too bad it's hard to do, but it's so awesome if it works.

 

[ImaClubYou]

Y'all don't know about dash slash into dash slash

 

[MagiusNecros]

When I get risky I go dash slash into dair.

Or dash slash into aerial fortress.

Course you have to bait that ad first.

Edit: I know about Uthrow > Fair but what about Uthrow > Aerial Fortress?

 

[Jerodak]

Hi, I'm going to do that thing where I show up and leave random information before leaving. Someone on a facebook group I'm in posted this for laughs or something https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3XN3m-6q7w

and the first thing I thought after "Kill luma first THEN charge your smash attack" was "Now, how can Bowser abuse this?"

Now it seems for this to be most effective, you need an attack with high base knockback. Of course, where Bowser is concerned, his base knockback is pretty bad except, on Dash attack.

Here are some figures

Bowser at 0% vs Dedede Dash attack K.Os at 390~ on Dedede just standing around but around 190 or so when he's charging an attack. (I'm recalling these from memory so please triple check this information, oh and I did these tests on Omega Pokemon Stadium)

Now, Bowser at around 121% will K.O Dedede with Dash attack while he's charging smash attacks at 150% with D.I now while this might not sound very impressive, you have to consider that Dedede has the highest vertical resistance in the game, and D.I is factored into this test, as well as staleness, which didn't seem to change too much actually. (Maybe you K.O about 10-15~% later?)

Anyway, that leaves this question of when this might be useful. You know when you're in the heat of a match, especially on a last stock last hit scenario, any your opponent goes for a hard read with a charged smash attack and you aren't in the best position to simply start charging fsmash or punish safely with down b? Maybe try an instant dash attack!

Oh, also, I know that the charge animation increasing your received knockback by 1.2x was already known, but this is this first time it could be combined with rage, the results seem pretty good, and we get another possible use for Dash attack, yay!

Hope that helps!

 

[MagiusNecros]

Wouldn't bair be stronger?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

It's 1.2x

 

[Big Sean]

How do you do the instant dash attack again?

 

[MagiusNecros]

Jab 1 dash tap and then dash attack.

Since you dash in place.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Does anybody know if you still suffer increased knockback if the opponent grabs and then throws you while you were performing a smash attack? In that scenario, you are no longer charging when launched. My guess is no.

A sort of dumb mixup I've gotten on one match was performing Fsmash before taking a hit. The added knockback put me further out of range for the followup hit. The scenario was me trying to cover a luigi's landing at close range. By winding up Fsmash, I thought he would airdodge into the ground, where I could let loose while he was stuck in airdodge land lag. But instead he Naired. i think the added knockback certainly helped, because when he jumped back up to hit me with Uair or Fair, I came down on him with Dair.

Maybe charging Fsmash has some potential, but unless it works on grabs (a typical combo starter), there's probably not enough reason to use that over a Fortress or jab. The charge window begins on frame 4, which is faster than frame 10 on our other smash attacks. Plus, taking that damage for a potential mixup to counter the opponent isn't ideal.

 

[Tri10]

I'm not sure if anyone has realized that Dash Slash actually true combos into U-Tilt. Multiple times on Battlefield I've immediately run off the platform and Dash Slash'd right after I fall off. It's amazing how many times this has worked right after the opponent dropped through the platform. It has only worked if the opponent dropped through the platform, but it's something to note.
After realizing it worked so well I went into training mode and tried it with a friend. They dropped from the platform and hit them with a Dash Slash, followed up with U-Tilt. True combo. So then that adds onto this topic. It's a niche situation, but U-Tilt can reliably hit off of a Dash Slash in the beginning of a battle at BF.

 

[MagiusNecros]

So Fsmash at ledge against a shield apparently has great shield push? Playing against a friend of mine today always forced him off the ledge?

Then again this was a Mewtwo I was fighting.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Regarding shield pushing, there is something that I've been meaning to test. @ J Jerodak posted this video some time ago and wondered if Bowser's Fsmash could cause the same effect. Sadly, I could not get it to work in such a way. What makes Bowser's Fsmash so different from Mac's is that Mac steps forward before the hitbox is active, which commonly lets the move connect from the other side of the opponent's shield. Mac would be on the other side of them at this point, letting him get pushed in the direction of the ledge. Bowser's movement from Fsmash occurs almost entirely after the hitbox is active, so you can't really get to the other side of them. It's a shame. Fsmash to Bair may not break an opponent's shield in one go, but it would look hella stylish.

I was dissatisfied. Bowser's moveset deals a lot of damage, so there must be a scenario in which we can push ourselves over a ledge after a move is blocked. Swipe 1 of Dtilt seems like our best bet. Though you do need to be on the very edge of the ledge. Dodge rolling to a ledge is the best way to get this positioning. Don't let the slowed down speed fool you, acting out of the ledge push quickly isn't difficult, I just needed more time to operate two controllers with my two hands. It's feasible to reach your opponent after getting pushed with a variety of aerial moves, but I'd say Fair, is the best choice as you sail over them. Uair, and Dair meteor can also hit, but requires you to drift Bowser toward and under the target for optimal positioning. Finally, you can get this to work when Dtilt is perfect shielded. The opponent will suffer no shield pushback, but the attacker still does.

Not the most game breaking mixup for Bowser, but I thought I would share it anyway while I had the recording equipment out.

 

[Jerodak]

Regarding shield pushing, there is something that I've been meaning to test. @ J Jerodak posted this video some time ago and wondered if Bowser's Fsmash could cause the same effect. Sadly, I could not get it to work in such a way. What makes Bowser's Fsmash so different from Mac's is that Mac steps forward before the hitbox is active, which commonly lets the move connect from the other side of the opponent's shield. Mac would be on the other side of them at this point, letting him get pushed in the direction of the ledge. Bowser's movement from Fsmash occurs almost entirely after the hitbox is active, so you can't really get to the other side of them. It's a shame. Fsmash to Bair may not break an opponent's shield in one go, but it would look hella stylish.

I was dissatisfied. Bowser's moveset deals a lot of damage, so there must be a scenario in which we can push ourselves over a ledge after a move is blocked. Swipe 1 of Dtilt seems like our best bet. Though you do need to be on the very edge of the ledge. Dodge rolling to a ledge is the best way to get this positioning. Don't let the slowed down speed fool you, acting out of the ledge push quickly isn't difficult, I just needed more time to operate two controllers with my two hands. It's feasible to reach your opponent after getting pushed with a variety of aerial moves, but I'd say Fair, is the best choice as you sail over them. Uair, and Dair meteor can also hit, but requires you to drift Bowser toward and under the target for optimal positioning. Finally, you can get this to work when Dtilt is perfect shielded. The opponent will suffer no shield pushback, but the attacker still does.

Not the most game breaking mixup for Bowser, but I thought I would share it anyway while I had the recording equipment out.

Actually, it does work, you can fsmash to air fortress or nair. Also, depending on charge and spacing you can either "step" or propel yourself off the stage. Typically you need like 1/4th or half a charge though. However jabs can work too if you're REALLY close to the edge. You have yo walk into them as they get up then jab. Probably because the back hit of jab needs to hit them for it to work.

Wouldn't bair be stronger?

I guess, but the point isn't necessarily to use the strongest move, it's to hit them quickly before they decide to stop charging. Dash attack becomes a reasonable k.o option in that scenario, and it should be more or less non-reactable.

Here are some numbers to consider, keep in mind, all of these are with di factored in.

Vs d3
0% rage, no smash charge, k.o at 390~
0% rage, with a charge, k.o at around 190%


That's a huge difference already.

At 71% with a charge d3 gets k.o'd at 183, raise the rage to 87% and you get the k.o at 176.

Now since there are better ways to k.o D3, lets look at this on another character.

On villager with no rage and a stale dash attack you can punish a smash charge and K.O at 150. If it's fresh then you get it at 130.
That's not bad considering a lot of lower knockback characters are waiting till then to K.O with smash attacks and other k.o attacks depending on the match up.

Not to mention, there was a point in my latest tournament where this would have been very valuable information. Do what you will with it though.

 

[Cronoc]

I was dissatisfied. Bowser's moveset deals a lot of damage, so there must be a scenario in which we can push ourselves over a ledge after a move is blocked. Swipe 1 of Dtilt seems like our best bet.

Ugh this shield pushback is why using dtilt with one's back to the ledge is so scary, if I hit the A button after being pushed off and still holding down I dair myself into oblivion. I love me some dtilt but I end up doing accidental dairs (usually after getting hit by something minor that puts Bowser in the air for just a second) way too often because of it.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Regarding shield pushing, there is something that I've been meaning to test. @ J Jerodak posted this video some time ago and wondered if Bowser's Fsmash could cause the same effect. Sadly, I could not get it to work in such a way. What makes Bowser's Fsmash so different from Mac's is that Mac steps forward before the hitbox is active, which commonly lets the move connect from the other side of the opponent's shield. Mac would be on the other side of them at this point, letting him get pushed in the direction of the ledge. Bowser's movement from Fsmash occurs almost entirely after the hitbox is active, so you can't really get to the other side of them. It's a shame. Fsmash to Bair may not break an opponent's shield in one go, but it would look hella stylish.

I was dissatisfied. Bowser's moveset deals a lot of damage, so there must be a scenario in which we can push ourselves over a ledge after a move is blocked. Swipe 1 of Dtilt seems like our best bet. Though you do need to be on the very edge of the ledge. Dodge rolling to a ledge is the best way to get this positioning. Don't let the slowed down speed fool you, acting out of the ledge push quickly isn't difficult, I just needed more time to operate two controllers with my two hands. It's feasible to reach your opponent after getting pushed with a variety of aerial moves, but I'd say Fair, is the best choice as you sail over them. Uair, and Dair meteor can also hit, but requires you to drift Bowser toward and under the target for optimal positioning. Finally, you can get this to work when Dtilt is perfect shielded. The opponent will suffer no shield pushback, but the attacker still does.

Not the most game breaking mixup for Bowser, but I thought I would share it anyway while I had the recording equipment out.

Regarding Shield push, couldn't we use Waveslashing with dtilt to force a push off?

 

[Jerodak]

I don't know if this was mentioned yet or not, but it turns out that if you f-tilt, vs Sheik and she swings at you fist with f-air while it's still active, her f-air is beat clean. I learned this while doing some tests on hurtbox extension.

Yoshi' f-air works similarly, in fact, this should work against any aerials that use limbs as long as they aren't intangible. It can also work on sword attacks as long as the sword isn't too long.

Using f-tilt to stuff aerials isn't anything new, but this could change how we might look at anti-air spacing and so on. Just something to think about.


EDIT: By the way, how well known is this? I'm a bit out of the loop at the moment. https://youtu.be/0A1qk4Qo6ZU

Also, the ground bounce from meteor smashes appear to be untechable while in a knocked down state, such as after a missed tech or forced knockdown from footstool. So, perhaps a possible tech chase punish, at least on platforms.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I like Bowser's Dair. But I don't like suiciding with it in order to kill the opponent. So I set out to look for instances where Dair could trade with recovery hitboxes. That way we simply take a bit of damage instead of losing a stock. But since Bowser's Dair is so disjointed from the areas of his body where he's vulnerable, we can't trade with very many moves without outright beating them. I was especially hoping to be able to trade with Mario and Fox's Up B. Still, Here's what I came up with

Unfortunately, Bowser often requires a good sense of timing and positioning for the trade. Roy, ZSS, and Peach require Bowser to be somewhat in front of them when the hitboxes connect. Directly above is iffy, and when hitting from behind, their move never reaches us. With Ike, we already could Dair his Up B from the safety of the ledge, this video only confirms that we're allowed to be about one or two spins late. Of all of these, I only like the Ryu and Marth examples, since they are pretty lenient with timing, and if you do miss the stage tech, we're not rebounded hard enough to be incapable of recovering with fortress afterward.

EDIT: By the way, how well known is this? I'm a bit out of the loop at the moment. https://youtu.be/0A1qk4Qo6ZU

Also, the ground bounce from meteor smashes appear to be untechable while in a knocked down state, such as after a missed tech or forced knockdown from footstool. So, perhaps a possible tech chase punish, at least on platforms.

Some months back I saw video evidence from a japanese smasher that demonstrated that vulnerability was different when coming at the ledge from what I call "above sea level", which is any point higher than the ledge itself. The video wasn't posted on Youtube, but it was demonstrated with Pikachu and his different quick attack angles trying to grab a ledge with a bumper in front of it. He would get bounced out of ledge snap only when coming from above or horizontally. As for there being two frames of vulnerability, that's good news.

Regarding meteor smashes on prone opponents, they can tech, it just depends on what move they are hit with. Several Dair meteors in Smash 4 only have meteor angles for airborne opponents, such as Dedede, Mewtwo, Ryu, and Falco. For their moves, the hitbox instead has an upward angle for grounded targets (prone counts as being on the ground). If a move has a meteor angle regardless of whether the target is airborne or grounded, it still needs a certain amount of knockback in order to make characters rebound at all. If you meteor somebody at 0%, they may just stand still and suffer hitstun. No teching necessary. If they had 50% or more, chances are they need to tech or else they will rebound off the ground. If a character is prone, but not at a point where the move makes them rebound, it will actually jab lock them instead. Some weak meteors actually make for great jab locking moves, like Little Max's Dair, and Zelda's late hit Dair.

 

[Cronoc]

Thanks Zapp Branniglenn for the video, I love demonstrations like these. For me it's not enough to read it, seeing it really helps. I had some competitive matches with an Ike long ago and I kept getting hit by his up b and eventually just let him back onto the ledge for free cause challenging it was just getting me hit. Seeing the timing here helps.

We should get a compilation post of all demonstrations like this put somewhere that's easy to find...

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Thanks Zapp Branniglenn for the video, I love demonstrations like these. For me it's not enough to read it, seeing it really helps. I had some competitive matches with an Ike long ago and I kept getting hit by his up b and eventually just let him back onto the ledge for free cause challenging it was just getting me hit. Seeing the timing here helps.

Oh, well if you needed to know about Ike's recovery moves and how you could hit them, this video has you covered. For Bowser's case, you can Dair him as soon as he catches his sword while still on the ledge. That way you never have to risk suiciding. His super armor has worn off by this point, and there's a break between hitboxes where his sword is spinning independently, and Ike is spinning with the sword. This is the point you should aim to hit your Dair on, since you won't even have to trade. But being late and suffering 1% damage is better than being early and missing entirely while you get hit from the move.

Most Bowser mains report generally favorable matchups with Ike, but a lot of that was before he was buffed to have a better Fair, and a lot of endlag shaved off his aerials and tilts, so maybe things have evened out.

 

[Jerodak]

Zapp Branniglenn which meteors can be teched while prone?

Edit: By the way, I tested this with Bowser's D-air, as well as Falcon's just now. They both get the meteor snap noise and the tech isn't happening.

Either these d-airs are special cases, or this got patched out. You might want to look into it to be sure.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Zapp Branniglenn which meteors can be teched while prone?

Oh, you are right. I just assumed that since there was a rebound animation at all then there must be a window to tech. That's pretty handy information since I our Fair should be able to force slides off of platforms at low percent.

 

[Jerodak]

While it's good to know this is useful, it also means falcon gets guaranteed ground bounce into knee on missed techs, maybe off footstools too. Also, I bet DK gets huge rewards as well.

Not sure what we get though, other than a mix-up. No combos off of it that I know of and ground bounce will k.o later than just launching with the late hit.

 

[Cronoc]

While it's good to know this is useful, it also means falcon gets guaranteed ground bounce into knee on missed techs, maybe off footstools too. Also, I bet DK gets huge rewards as well.

Not sure what we get though, other than a mix-up. No combos off of it that I know of and ground bounce will k.o later than just launching with the late hit.

I'm a fan of dair ground bounce into usmash at low percents and bair around 60-90%... but any followups will require the opponent's cooperation.

 

[Jerodak]

Got some footstool tech for you.

After a "ledge denial", run off, jump back, n-air or b-air. The way this should work is if they don't jump back right away, you can chase them an maybe get a footstool, if they do jump early, the aerial hits them. Might be best used on fast fallers, but it should work on anyone reasonably as long as they aren't prepared specifically for it.

This next one might be good while trying to land or perhaps even in neutral, in both situations it should be applied as a mix-up.

Footstool -> d-air -> air dodge.

Option 1 (Opponent does nothing, tries to jump, or attempts to grab): The footstool happens normally, and you air dodge away.

Option 2 (Opponent presses a button, likely an up tilt/smash): The footstool happens without the animation, the d-air then comes out and punishes the whiffed attack.

The opponent can defeat this by shielding, rolling, or spot dodging to make option 2 come out, so it's best used on more aggressive opponents, preferably after some conditioning.

I actually got the idea for this from watching Bill Trinnen vs Eli at Pax

https://youtu.be/Q0UqtC2Tryc specifically the set-up he used at around 8:19.

Naturally, it won't work on every character either, if they have a very fast up tilt or high enough priority up smash then it probably won't work. Against airborne foes you can swap the air dodge out for down b.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

This is very matchup specific but Bowser Jr. is considered in the air when he uses get up attack. If you down air him, he gets spiked and dies from a ledge option.

 

[Jerodak]

Might be worth labbing that with other characters.

 

[S_B]

I realized something today that irks me about Bowser, and it may have been like this for a while but I could just never put my finger on it...

Bowser has to be played more precisely than he should have to be.

I had grounded bomb fail on me three times today: I got the first hit, but the second hit was just pixels off. I find the same irritation with fortress recovery when your back is to the stage: if you don't rise to just the right height, you either fall to your death or slide onto the stage (which is usually also death).

More than anything, I'd like to see Bowser's nagging little issues fixed in a patch than any other straight up buffs. If you land the first hit of bomb, you should get the followup, and Bowser should sure as hell snap to the ledge regardless of which direction he's facing.

It'd be one thing if we had to be precise in order to safely space our aerials or do something out of the norm that improved Bowser's metagame, but the level of precision required in some of these things just to play normally seems unwarranted...

 

[Cassius.]

We had to deal with people being able to airdodge out of the second hit if they DI'd the first one properly, so that down b nitpick doesn't bother me too much considering what's been removed and what hasn't been fixed yet.

It is designed and is supposed to connect properly, so I guess my argument really has no place.

@ the bowser jr thing, I've done that before because I go for the DAir tech (can we call this the shell shock?) way too often and caught someone with that before.

 

[Duck SMASH!]

This is very matchup specific but Bowser Jr. is considered in the air when he uses get up attack. If you down air him, he gets spiked and dies from a ledge option.

Man, Jr doesn't get a break from anybody, least of all his own father... D:

 

[a stray cat]

Spamming usmash on FG: http://gfycat.com/MeatyImprobableCero

I wonder if this works on other up-b's that hit through the edge like that?

 

[MagiusNecros]

Try it on other stages. Let me know results.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Perhaps the Mario was holding down so as to not snap to the ledge. It would be a smart thing to do had he been challenging any smash attack that wasn't Bowser's shellguarded Usmash. I could see Mario's Up B stabbing through the stage before he snapped, but I don't see Mario's Hurtbox being extended that far upward before the snap. I'm also surprised Bowser could guard against attacks coming from under him. I thought his literal shell hitbox was the only part of the auto guard feature.

I enjoyed watching this exchange. Very intriguing.

 

[MagiusNecros]

It clanked with Bowser's head. Any later and Bowser would have gotten smacked.

 

[Jerodak]

Counted some frames.

Run skid should be 9 frames long on normal terrain and 7 frames long on grass.

Slow run skid should be 6 frames on normal terrain and 5 frames on grass.

Any confirmation?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Is that an actual thing, because if it is I'll be gentleman'ing Omega Gaur Plains if true.

 

[MrEh]

Lol if duck hunt counts as grass.

 

[Jerodak]

If you want to abuse grass, your options are Mario Galaxy, Great Cave Offensive, Mushroom U, Windy Hill, and Yoshi's island. All omega of course.

Great cave is good for practicing skid dancing on each terrain type. You can see the difference that grass makes, and learn optimal timing on both.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Counted some frames.

Run skid should be 9 frames long on normal terrain and 7 frames long on grass.

Slow run skid should be 6 frames on normal terrain and 5 frames on grass.

Any confirmation?

I frame counted it on normal terrain and run skid seems to be a consistent 9 frames for me. However, I didn't get a different number for slow run, which is bizarre. I rechecked the tech of the week video on the concept to see if I was missing something, but the skid was still 9 frames. I did my testing on Battlefield, so that there would be neither grass nor an opposing character to slow down Bowser's run other than my inputs. Then I tried on omega Great Cave and got 6 frames on a grass slow run skid.

My theory is that Characters with great traction for this sort of thing like Bowser have a floor that they can't get lower from without an external source slowing them down, like grass. And if you spent your run running across grass and merely stopped after a step on normal terrain, your skid is still decided by the terrain you were mostly running across.

Character running and skids are so fluently animated that it took me a long time to realize what frame 1 of Bowser's skid looked like.

 

[Jerodak]

If you got the same frame count, it's probably because of how tricky slow running and easing out of slow running is in 1/4th. We might just need to have it counted frame by frame to be extra sure.

In either case, we know Bowser stops running really fast.