Data Bowser's Moveset Data & Discussion

[S_B]

At 0% forward throw is pretty sub optimal. It reminds me of using melee fox's back throw to up air to mix up DI or something.

As for fire, you can use it off stage as a gimp as well. Not many people go for it but it's pretty safe if you space it right. Depends who you're gimping though.

Does fire push people DOWN? I believe Bowser can fall pretty far while using FB off the ledge and still be able to recover, but I've not tested it extensively...

 

[ImaClubYou]

It pops them slightly upwards, but it has no real knock back. It works on characters with no ridiculous recoveries. Hell, it works on charizard if he recovers low.

And what I mean by use of fire breath as a abusive move off stage. It's way more abusable than it ever was compared to melee and brawl. Melees was too slow at start and finish. It sucked ass. Brawls had the same thin going for it but was a tiny bit better due to being able to angle it.

 

[Cassius.]

Of course FThrow at 0 isn't optimal. We have UThrow setups on almost every character at 0. But that's not what you said.

The firebreath thing is good for what you're talking about as well, but I have churning fears of idiot Bowser players attempting that while not paying attention to opponent resources and getting footstooled/stage spiked for it.

 

[ImaClubYou]

Sorry, I'm bored here at work so I try to be accurate but I may rush my choice of words.

Also for using fire to gimp you may want to turn around before jumping so you can make back onstage without having to recover backwards.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I was playing with some ideas about what Bowser could do in a matchup against himself. I encountered a strange anomaly when Uthrowing Bowser at very low percents. The first few hits of Uthrow were not registering a true combo. But the full damage was being dealt. Before I knew it, I was Uthrowing the whole roster of characters to see if anybody other than Bowser would repeat this phenomenon. But it eventually hit me that Bowser was tough guying the first few hits of Uthrow. And when he tough guys something in training mode, combo hits don't register, but damage does.

Tough guy makes me angry. But while Uthrowing I thought of a way they could turn the move into a good combo throw. The attack already has a godly FAF. But the last hit only deals 2% damage. If they decreased the multihit damage from 1% to 0.25%, while increasing the final hit damage from 2 to 8%, you'd get a throw with the same amount of damage yet far more hitstun.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

But the last hit only deals 2% damage. If they decreased the multihit damage from 1% to 0.25%, while increasing the final hit damage from 2 to 8%, you'd get a throw with the same amount of damage yet far more hitstun.

... And far more KB making the move unable to be combo'd into.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

... And far more KB making the move unable to be combo'd into.

That's correct that KB would be changed with a change in damage. The KB stats for Uthrow are already pretty high (90 base, 80 growth), but at the end of the day you're being launched by a 2% move. That's why the attack can only ever kill when the opponent is near 500%. You could decrease that massive base knockback, but unless you go far enough to place them within Utilt range, I doubt you could true combo anything out of Uthrow with Bowser's 8 frame jumpsquat, 8+ frame selection of aerials, and several more frames that it takes to reach them.

Tweaking knockback values and damage together should be more effective than just one. A combo throw that stops working long before the opponent reaches high percents. Bowser doesn't need a "hoo hag" when his entire moveset consists of insane KO potential.

 

[Jerodak]

Just wondering, everyone seen this yet? https://youtu.be/a8rpifNUEYo

Wondering about possible set-ups. Grounded grab release? Fire breath? Worth looking into?

 

[MagiusNecros]

Looks situational and the opponent has to be launched towards the wall and actually smack it. So Grab release and FB probably wouldn't do much.

 

[Jerodak]

The only condition is that they are hugging the wall, so anything that's able to set-up a low recovery potentially sets this up also. Hence grab-release offstage -> b-air or firebreath interception -> opponent decides to go low -> b-air.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Most cases the Bair can be airdodged.

I think actual testing of the tactics mentioned is required.

 

[Jerodak]

It seems I have given the wrong impression of what I had intended. I know the can be air dodged; I never intended for a guaranteed follow up. The "set-ups" are only intended to make the untechable b-air a possibility, not a certainty. It would more or less be a mix-up. However, if they like to air dodge, which is really dangerous during a low recovery actually, you can counter it. Simply delaying the b-air could handle that, a dunk if you're feeling bold or possibly a footstool if you want cool points. It's not much different than going offstage for run-off f-airs; those can be dodged too.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Not sure if it does but I imaginable setting up the untechable wall bounce would be viable if Fair hits people behind you at the end portion of the swipe.

And I do like the run off Fair.

 

[Jerodak]

Not sure if it does but I imaginable setting up the untechable wall bounce would be viable if Fair hits people behind you at the end portion of the swipe.

And I do like the run off Fair.

It can, I actually had a friend post a video where I managed to pull that off.

https://youtu.be/4l4tZJpH6dA at around 1:23

It's a good surprise wall bounce. If you want to see more footage, the other five videos are in the video thread.

 

[MagiusNecros]

So there we go. We have one set up that can work. And many times people won't be dodging that Fair.

 

[Jerodak]

If you're super worried about dodging, you could always wait till they commit to a recovery special. The f-air wallbounce works because no one expects to fly into a wall from a f-air. But there are ways around it as well, especially if it becomes common knowledge. It's a shenanigan at best, but not a bad one if you can manage the spacing.

However, one thing I hadn't thought of before was stage spikes with down-b. Those happen when the opponent is caught close to the wall, same with down smash stage spikes. So maybe those are untechable.

 

[ImaClubYou]

I love down b'ing from the ground onto the ledge because it gives you 50/50's.

Either get the hit off and potentially kill, or ledge trump. Normal get up, turn around down tilt to victory.

 

[Jerodak]

I like it too, but it leaves no room for mix-ups so I've become more sparing with it's use. Your opponent can get wise to it fast and start avoiding the set-up completely. It's a good mix-up in and of itself, but once you do it, it's all or nothing.

There are some characters where I use it all the time when they go low, however. Like Shulk, in that case it seems almost free.

 

[MagiusNecros]

My favorite thing to do is the runoff Dair. Only because it's a crazy yolo move very few are gonna expect since if we miss we kinda die.

 

[Jerodak]

I love Dair as an airdodge punish, especially offstage. It's also great trading the meteor with something trivial.

 

[ImaClubYou]

I love Bowsers tip toe walk. And by that the slowest possible walk he can do. It's pretty intimidating.

Also bowsers jab is amazing. I went up against a falcon who wasn't horrible, he kinda had an idea of what he was doing, but I kind of just trolled him and pretty much spaced jabs the entire match and killed him edgeguard jabs.

 

[Cassius.]

You have to be careful with that Bowser Bomb trump gimmick, because you are in essence betting your whole hand on something actually happening. As jero said, it is an all-or-nothing kind of thing. If your opponent actually wises up to that or just knows what they're doing in general, you will be in a complete disadvantage with no stage control at all, even though you two may come off of the ledge within seconds of each other.

Bowser on the ledge is still kind of poop even in this game. It's still a good trick, though. And it's useful for quite a few recoveries in this game (especially those that don't snap--aether, mac/shulk upbs and other weird ones like falcon's)

Bowser's jab is p good. You haven't been using it prior to posting about it?

 

[ImaClubYou]

I use it a lot actually. Id even call it bowsers best move. Aside from FSMASH KO AT 20%!!!

 

[MrEh]

Bowser's jab has been his best move since forever. lol

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I'm actually working on a massive write-up for Bowser's jab. A primer on everything you'd need to know about Bowser's best part of his toolkit. Bowser's optimal followups. Frame data and advantage, how and why it's possible for some opponents to escape followups in ways that other characters cannot, things like that.

Basically I want a large reference for veteran players to keep their facts straight, while also providing newcomers with every reason they need to keep calm and jab.

 

[Jerodak]

Has anyone noticed that while running, if you press a or grab right after the shield button that you can actually do a dash grab out of shield? This also works with pivot grabs using the same timing.

I believe that this could work pretty well as an option select when using the a button. If your opponent does nothing or shields you dash grab them, if they try to hit you then you can end up power shielding and buffer out any tilt you want. The pivot grab seems less useful in this situation, but it's there.

Anyone been doing this already?

 

[Big Sean]

Has anyone noticed that while running, if you press a or grab right after the shield button that you can actually do a dash grab out of shield? This also works with pivot grabs using the same timing.

I believe that this could work pretty well as an option select when using the a button. If your opponent does nothing or shields you dash grab them, if they try to hit you then you can end up power shielding and buffer out any tilt you want. The pivot grab seems less useful in this situation, but it's there.

Anyone been doing this already?

I've been doing this but i'm not sure how I can get a tilt out if they hit my shield. I usually just get a shield grab.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Mewtwo is so bad we can plow through his up smash with dair.

Just did it a few times. Sad.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

@ MagiusNecros I have not been able to do this no matter how many times I've tried. My DAir always loses.

 

[MagiusNecros]

@ MagiusNecros I have not been able to do this no matter how many times I've tried. My DAir always loses.

Well on 3ds it's been working 100% on a lvl9 so yeah.

I think the beginning of M2's Upsmash just has weak hits and the last strong hit and what we need to watch for.

 

[Jerodak]

I've been doing this but i'm not sure how I can get a tilt out if they hit my shield. I usually just get a shield grab.

Release the shield button as you press A and it should work. The shield never stays up long anyway. The timing can be tricky, but it seems useful. Also the pivot grab oos may be useful in cross-up situations.

 

[ImaClubYou]

I've never fought a mewtwo with bowser but from just the pure speculation of a good bowser vs a good mewtwo, mewtwo gets trashed hard. I secondary mewtwo/charizard as well.

 

[Jerodak]

Just posting some useful looking videos for anyone that may not have seen them yet.

https://youtu.be/mnx7jP7k2V0 Might help our ledge game a bit.

https://youtu.be/z1YYeTfae2w I've actually labbed this up before and can confirm it works with Bowser's Fsmash. But I've gotten it to work off jab too so, try it out I guess?

https://youtu.be/uf4Hi6xu1wI Another reason to jab more. Possibly a reason to N-air as well? Maybe we can look further into this when @ KuroganeHammer finishes his advantage calculator.

https://youtu.be/sY7tYE3v_Zc Common knowledge but maybe worth revisiting.

https://youtu.be/9PwmlJwhKSU Worth labbing?

https://youtu.be/hq95uAOJZkQ Worth labbing?

https://youtu.be/7vurpDMMe7k Watch out for this, I guess.

https://youtu.be/WGFXtcydVJ0 Might be useful? It would need to work with side-b though.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Rage is an unknown multiplier at the end of the KB formula, so yes, it affects weight based KB also. It's one of the reasons things like ZSS up b is so inconsistent.

 

[Jerodak]

Good to know, but I'm primarily interested in what that means for our follow up potential. Because if we can get sure follow ups or superior set-ups out of rage jab or n-air that ignores opponent percentage, it'd be good to know exactly what they are. The more things we can do to make players scared of Bowser the better.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Good to know, but I'm primarily interested in what that means for our follow up potential. Because if we can get sure follow ups or superior set-ups out of rage jab or n-air that ignores opponent percentage, it'd be good to know exactly what they are. The more things we can do to make players scared of Bowser the better.

I'm looking into how the situation changes when attempting to followup or escape followups from a rage jab. It's just annoying to test because this game has no handicap settings that you can set manually to have Bowser spawn at 100% each stock. It has an auto setting that you can't control. So, to get Bowser to 100%, you have to manually lose five matches to a second controller playing as Bowser.

The rising hit of Bowser bomb is another fixed knockback move that is likely effected by Rage.

 

[MagiusNecros]

So Giga Bowser has one of the best ledge get up attacks in the game I think.

Spinning shell attack that reels him back to the edge for easy jab setups at low percents.

Makes me envious since our own ledge attack is crap.

Oh and it's faster then ours too.

 

[Jerodak]

@ Zapp Branniglenn That first hit already has good hitstun, you can combo off from certain trades, with rage those trades may become more favorable/varied. May give us some interesting options. Is fire breath's knock-back fixed? I guess that would make it safer/slightly more usable.

 

[ImaClubYou]

Anybodies view on riskier plays like reading rolls with aerial bowser bombs? At low percent and with momentum in my favor I may do it and win a free kill at 30-50%.

On characters with weak combo games and weak punishes I'd even recommend it.


I would even do it on sheik despite her infinite combos because she's not killing bowser no matter what.

 

[Cassius.]

If they're on a platform, sure. But otherwise, I dunno. That sounds like it's pushing it, and seems like it's a real easy way to get a lead you've established completely removed from you. You can afford to take risks if you want. Sometimes you do have to gamble, but a concrete understanding of risk-reward in certain scenarios is a telling sign between a good and great player.

You can punish people however you please, but what's the context of this? Why are people rolling if you're airborne? Is Bowser's air speed even good enough to reliably do something like that? Why are you airborne if you have momentum?