Data Bowser's Moveset Data & Discussion

[Jerodak]

I've actually punished rolls that way before. Though I usually prefer to use Dair instead because it can be steered. I'm not going to say it's a great strategy but I have gotten some free landings and stocks out of it.

Speaking of D-air. I was doing a bit of stuff in the lab and I realized that Villager's ledge options are so bad that you can hit him out of everything with it. Bowser bombs seem to work too. The problem is that his ledge roll is not only short but the I frames wear off about halfway. It's so bad you can be close enough to dunk him off the ledge and the landing hitbox still covers the roll.

Dtilt and Jab have similar results, it's possible to cover all of Villager's ledge options with just jabs from the same spacing. No wonder that balloon recovery is so good, this also explains why Bowser's advantage state vs Default Villager feels so strong when they are stuck on the ledge. It's always felt unusually easy to keep them there, compared to other characters.

Turns out that if you do perfect shield up tilt, down tilt, or down smash while running you will slide forward. If you want to combine this with the ppary + grab OS then uptilt and down smash are the only ones that will work. Getting a running ppary dtilt seems to require you to spotdodge if you don't perfect shield anything. The timing for running ppary up tilt + grab is kinda tricky but doable. This might help improve Bowser's approach game a little. Oh, and upsmash will slide a bit too but I figured that was a given.

 

[ImaClubYou]

What I meant by airborn is dashing towards an opponent, read an option, and do a short hop bowser bomb. Not I got hit and want to get down type of bowser bomb haha.

So what's the deal with spot dodge on bowser it seems terribly punishable but at the same time, out of the 1253 times I've played him I never used it.

 

[Jerodak]

@ ImaClubYou Too late! No take backs! No point changing it now!
Bad jokes aside, Bowser's spotdodge is useable, I recommend learning how to apply it properly to his game. There are situations where it's perfectly valid. So don't neglect it, just don't spam it.

 

[Big Sean]

@ ImaClubYou

The short hop bowser bomb is actually something pretty interesting that I haven't tried yet. I guess the theory being that if you short hop towards someone they will likely put up a shield, and if you're lucky, auto shield grab. The risk/reward I think only works out if you aren't in kill percentage and they are like post 15% so that a shield break is a guranteed stock. Also it's important that even though they might only be 15% they've shielded at least a tilt or something fairly recently otherwise you won't get the shield break. I do a similar thing where as a landing option I use bowser bomb at a very low distance to the ground and it works surprisingly well.

I would probably go for the safer aerial klaw or tomahawk klaw mostly because there is a very real chance that they will see the bowser bomb above them, and have the reaction time to just roll out of the way. At least the good players anyway. The window is small because there is some start up time to roll/spot dodging but it does exist.

 

[Jerodak]

I think learning some non-bomb shield breaking set-ups is a good idea. While it is a good move over all, It really isn't the greatest shield breaker.

Having at least a few other options would be awesome. And it's not like Bowser's shield damage is negligible. Even f-air deals a hefty chunk.

N-air and b-air are probably the best aerial options. Then there's d-tilt on the ground and firebreath for chip damage. I know one good full burst to a clean dtilt "combo" on shield should break a healthy shield.

If they are on a platform, sharking or jumping past them with n-air or b-air could break or weaken shields depending on how damaged they are. Nair has a chance to shield poke instead though, so maybe only use it for chipping.

If air fortress was a better move, I'd say use it. But it's not only really hard to use, it isn't even guaranteed to do anything at all even if you execute it perfectly, they can just shield drop, take the hits, and punish. I'd love to find a valid use for that move though, a fast 35% attack would be nice to take advantage of.

Actually, I just got an idea, since fortess is one of the fastest options we have in the air, and because of how we can control it. How about using it for a rough combo breaking/escape option?

IT sounds silly but consider this, you get stuck in some tilt string, don't want to waste a jump, so you up b instead, and they hit you out of it, but you gained enough height to safely jump. Or, maybe it can be squeezed in between some not-so-true strings, especially if we can get it to trade favorably on the first hit.

Might be worth a shot, and it seems better than doing nothing. Heck, maybe it'll even encourage players to try waiting to bait it out if it sees some success. This would be good in the long run because if your opponent tries it and reads wrong then you have an opening for a better option.

just ran some quick tests, this seems to work Mario dthrow -> stuff and Sheik ftilt strings as long as they go for the follow up to hit you out of the fortress, which they probably will. I also doubt anyone will just stop tilting on reaction.

This may warrant further testing, I'll see what I can manage. My Wiiu is out of date though, still on the Mewtwo patch. But this should show the same results in the latest version.
Feel free to double check.

 

[Big Sean]

@ J Jerodak I think you're right that we should be considering more non bomb options for shield break. I would love to know which moves cause a shield break and fast we need to get them to break a shield. I think though that since I've gotten exactly 1 non-bowser bomb shield break in the 7000+ bowser games I've played, it's probably the case that shield regen is just too good to be viable. Still worth testing though

As for up + b ... you are crazy but in a good way. I want to play with this especially near the ledge so maybe I can just grab the ledge before they follow up. This really isn't a terrible idea at least to try.

 

[Jerodak]

@ Big Sean

It gets better, turns out dair shockwave is a guaranteed punish on mario d-throw when you're at low percents, he can't even shield in time. Not sure how viable it is overall since the shockwave might not even be safe unless mario is at high percents, but by then rage might change up the interaction. This might be worth looking into as well.

 

[ImaClubYou]

Ill vouch that I play stupid and sometimes go for aerial fortress because potentially it deals massive damage. This goes the same for DK where instead of doing up throw to up air I'll do up throw to up b or even up throw to up air to up b depending on the character

 

[Cassius.]

Yeah I've been using aerial Up-b to break out as I'm taking damage a lot more on stages with platforms available, like SV, BF, Lylat etc. I've found that trading off a standard punish instead of getting corner carried/put on my ass is usually worth the risk. Usually against Luigi shenanigans specifically because his jump/airspeed is mediocre, so if you fade away after breaking out, he is more often that not incapable of pursuing with a grab combo. It does hefty damage and it leaves you on a platform. It's more reasonable too since it's still early meta and players have not established an optimized punish game.

Not something that someone should do every time, but surprisingly it is something I stopped exploring for some reason.

 

[Jerodak]

@ Cassius. Have you been using up air as well, that works for me sometimes, especially if they try to reach extra hard or after an airdodge through. N-air can work too of course, but I feel like up air is a bit better, even if it's slower.

Also, this makes me want the launch hit on air fortress to be on the end of the move even more. Decentish string breaker with 35%? Alright!

 

[MagiusNecros]

Ill vouch that I play stupid and sometimes go for aerial fortress because potentially it deals massive damage. This goes the same for DK where instead of doing up throw to up air I'll do up throw to up b or even up throw to up air to up b depending on the character

Run up and aerial fortress their body for a free 30% damage.

 

[Cassius.]

Yeah I've been trying UAir for a while since it's tied for our fastest aerial. It kind of works, but really only against characters who either attack/combo bowser and stay above him or at that 40° angle (for BAir or FAir chains). I've used falling UAir to land before as well but that's just risky to begin with.

 

[ImaClubYou]

B reverse breath double jump near the ground is my usual "get me down" option. Otherwise I just try to fake landing on the ground and then double jump towards the ledge or even bowser bomb. Most people are to afraid to challenge bowser bomb so it works out. Just don't miss space the bowser bomb cuz that's a heart breaker.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Retreating to ledge or just doing nothing works leagues better. Bowser Bomb to get down usually doesn't end well unless your opponent is a complete idiot.

 

[Cassius.]

You'd be surprised how often players tend to overextend in mid game/stock closing situations. I'm not advocating for Bowser Bomb use, but keep an eye out.

Although Bowser Bomb as a landing option is garbage, I would never automatically assume the people I'm playing against are actually ready for it. You need to check to see how hard they're pressing their advantage and whether they're actually aware of Bowser's blind spot or not.

I wouldn't do it against someone like, Luigi because that's like rolling a die where you have a 1-in-6 chance of not dying, but yeah.

 

[ImaClubYou]

Dammit I need to clarify better. I meant bowser bomb to the ledge, not just straight to the ground haha. That's why I said it was a heartbreaker if you miss.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Slipbomb makes it stupid easy to do. But I much prefer Fortress to ledge. So I can keep Bowser Bomb.

 

[ImaClubYou]

Is that a costum move? I can't get those for the life of me.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Yes it is.

I usually transfer custom moves off of the 3ds version because that's easier.

 

[MrEh]

I would never advocate custom bomb use just because you lose out on guaranteed kill punishes that regular bomb provides.

It's a shame because the custom bombs are cool.

 

[Jerodak]

So I'm doing a bit of labcraft, anyone notice that if you press grab while rising from a crouch you will jab? That's probably common knowledge, but the interesting part is what happens when you hold grab.

Normally, when holding "a" your jab 1 comes out on whiff then nothing else happens. However, when using jab by holding down grab, you get only the jab 1 and then shield on both hit and whiff. You can then press a to get a shield grab. If you buffer a special it will come out after the jab, interrupting (not canceling) the shield.

This could be useful for various things (Including potential option selects which I know I've been unusually vocal about lately.)

Oh, and you can also do completely uncharged smash attacks this way. If anyone cares.

 

[MagiusNecros]

I would never advocate custom bomb use just because you lose out on guaranteed kill punishes that regular bomb provides.

It's a shame because the custom bombs are cool.

If Slipbomb had the same shield breaking power as the regular I would use it forever. But it doesn't.

Slipbomb can cause trip and it also kinda works like a vertical dodge since you fly up so fast off the ground.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Slip Bomb will break a shield with a direct hit, but Bowser doesn't jump as far forward from the ground. Plus, the rising hit from normal bomb usually keeps people in their shields thanks to that shieldstun. They have to dodge roll to escape the falling hit. Slip Bomb doesn't have that rising hit. But the outlier aspect of slip bomb over normal is that Bowser falls to the ground far quicker than normal bomb. Using Bomb from an aerial position to land on people is really dumb, but Slip Bomb to land on people makes a lot more sense. You start falling about ten frames faster, and the tripbox gives you added security from punishes. Slip Bomb is more of a replacement for our Dair than our Bomb. I see potential in its use, but Bowser Bomb is a difficult move for us to give up.

 

[Jerodak]

Actually, slip bomb is a better shield breaker because it's harder to react to and potentially covers rolling or spot dodging. It's also a better set-up tool because of the tripping.

However, default bomb is better at K.Oing and dealing raw damage. The first hit allows it to be used in set-ups but not as a set-up on it's own without a favorable trade. It also makes it the superior punish option.

Wind bomb is gimmicky but it can do some really stupid stuff in it's few niche situations.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

The Jab mega thread is live. Please let me know if there's anything I should add or modify.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

I've clashed with Villager's bowling ball using the initial hit on aerial Fortress and got away unscathed. Just what is the extent of that hit box's priority over projectiles?

 

[Jerodak]

It seems to mostly clank projectiles. Pretty sure you can even go through hard knuckle with it.

 

[MagiusNecros]

I've clashed with Villager's bowling ball using the initial hit on aerial Fortress and got away unscathed. Just what is the extent of that hit box's priority over projectiles?

Initial startup says no to most weak projectiles. Too bad it isn't a true shell guard.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

@ MagiusNecros lol I never thought of bowling balls as weak.

 

[MagiusNecros]

@ MagiusNecros lol I never thought of bowling balls as weak.

Our initial hit just hits harder. Aerial fortress hit 1 has big knockback but multi hit stops it.

 

[Big Sean]

@ J Jerodak I've been trying out the Perfect Parry OS stuff and it seems amazing on the surface. Is it possible to do a perfect parry bowser bomb without the spot dodge coming out if you whiff? The video made it seem like this was doable, but I don't think i've been able to do it.

 

[Jerodak]

Unfortunately not sure, probably not though.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

So we've been looking at shieldlag a lot and we're on the cusp of confirming something's changed universally about moves with a hitlag modifier larger than 1.0. The attacks in question would freeze the user for longer when attacking shields, and are not anymore. Moves with 1.5, 1.2, etc. modifiers are now far safer on shield due to less shieldlag (not the same as shieldstun). This is amazing news for Marth and Roy's sweetspot-centric moveset.

For Bowser, this change means nothing unless customs are involved, because Dash Slash has a 1.5 modifier from the ground, and a 1.8 from the air. Dash Slash is safer on block, and that sounds terrifying.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

So we've been looking at shieldlag a lot and we're on the cusp of confirming something's changed universally about moves with a hitlag modifier larger than 1.0. The attacks in question would freeze the user for longer when attacking shields, and are not anymore. Moves with 1.5, 1.2, etc. modifiers are now far safer on shield due to less shieldlag (not the same as shieldstun). This is amazing news for Marth and Roy's sweetspot-centric moveset.

For Bowser, this change means nothing unless customs are involved, because Dash Slash has a 1.5 modifier from the ground, and a 1.8 from the air. Dash Slash is safer on block, and that sounds terrifying.

I hate being that guy who says "I doubt this" and doesn't post any evidence at all, but I do actually doubt this,

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I hate being that guy who says "I doubt this" and doesn't post any evidence at all, but I do actually doubt this,

I do as well, but only because I found an example of a move that should be part of this change but isn't. Or at least, I think I found a counter-example. We don't have a definition for the difference even as we chronicle specific examples. Are all modifiers behaving as a 1.0 on shield? Are they being reduced by 0.3 flat? Are they being reduced by 30%? Not all of Marth's tippers have the same hitlag modifier, but they also don't have the same block statistics for a direct comparison.

We know there's a change in shieldlag and that it's a change not applied to hitbox data (thus, engine-related). And moves with a hitlag modifier of less than 1.0 are unaffected. Marth, Roy, and Ryu are the most affected, with other chronicled changes to specific moves on Link and Ike.

Nobody has chronicled in depth statistics for Bowser's moves on block, so it's not like we have something to compare to for Dash Slash.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Hitlag on shield is a formula which is then multiplied by the hitlag multiplier. Nothing more, nothing less.

I haven't gone in depth in it but it sounds like I now have to...

 

[a stray cat]

@ KuroganeHammer could I trouble you for all these formulae?

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Hitlag on shield is a formula which is then multiplied by the hitlag multiplier. Nothing more, nothing less.

Dunno why you think this information is unknown to us, but yes. It's that hitlag multiplier that would affect the shieldlag for the user more than the one blocking the attack. This would seem extremely unfair, and you'd think they'd revert it so that shieldlag experienced by both players is equal. But the amount of frames of shieldlag on such moves is not reverted to what the victim experiences entirely. Just alleviated. For instance, Marth is frozen for 18 frames on an Fsmash tipper (1.5 hitlag modifier), while the shielded opponent is frozen for 11. Now, Marth is frozen for 14 frames, effectively making that move 4 frames safer on block. As far as we've seen, Marth's 1.5 multipliers are dropped to 1.2, while 1.25 are dropped to 1.0 for when they strike a shield. But that's just estimates. We're still looking for more data to compare to.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Anyone play with waveslashing? It is saving my bacon in some cpu diddy fights. Waveslashing backwards into dtilt does so much for you.

Dash slash btw.

I like the moving hitbox you become with it.

 

[MrEh]

I do it all the time, but mostly as a way to subtly affect your spacing. Let's be real here: sliding halfway backwards across FD gets nothing done except making the commentators hype.