Data Bowser's Moveset Data & Discussion

[KuroganeHammer]

Yeah I can't see anything that's changed either. If something has, it's minor.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Dsmash launch angle changed 60 -> 48

Edit: That's it, go home folks.

 

[Hitman JT]

Well that's disappointing.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

I never noticed that delayed jab 2 actually inches us backwards slightly. Herp derp.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Better than nothing. Dsmash should at least KO now.

 

[Jerodak]

Better than nothing. Dsmash should at least KO now.

Does it send more horizontal or vertical now?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Horizontal.

 

[Jerodak]

Horizontal.

Awesome, now it should be even better for edge guarding.

 

[Cassius.]

Beautiful. It took 10 patches for MK's hitboxes to be fixed. I wonder how many it'll take for us to either get a decent air cmd grab or for the mechanic to be consistent.

edit: wow my premium ran out and I had no idea lmao

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

Also, buffs to other heavies make me smile.

 

[Jerodak]

Was tough guy tested yet? I'm guessing @ KuroganeHammer would have seen it in the data dump?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

That sort of thing isn't in the data dump but I don't think it was touched.

 

[Jerodak]

That sort of thing isn't in the data dump but I don't think it was touched.

Yeah probably, but it'd be nice if it started working on needles at least.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Tough guy itself wasn't made stronger. I'll keep my ears out for changes to moves that Bowser can armor in order to find new ranges. Come to think of it, I haven't reported on the DLC characters and what moves we armor from them.

 

[Volimutt]

Tough guy itself wasn't made stronger. I'll keep my ears out for changes to moves that Bowser can armor in order to find new ranges. Come to think of it, I haven't reported on the DLC characters and what moves we armor from them.

Bowser can run right through Ryu's Fire Hadoken(Aint no got time to be trying to spell the name lol) at low to mid percents though last active hitbox will cause a flinch

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Bowser can run right through Ryu's Fire Hadoken(Aint no got time to be trying to spell the name lol) at low to mid percents though last active hitbox will cause a flinch

Uh huh, Bowser can charge through the shakunetsu hadoken until past 150% damage. I also wrote down how Bowser can tough guy Lucas' PK thunder and Dtilt.

Dtilt (far hit) 0-27%
PK Thunder (tail) 0-115%

Frame data wasn't available for the DLC characters when I tried to grab ranges for moves we armor, so I wasn't savvy of how Lucas has THREE hitboxes of varying power on his Dtilt, instead of two. And I think those hitboxes have had changes to their power in this latest update, so don't take that range seriously. I'll find the correct one sometime soon, along with any stuff I've missed. I'm sure people have compiled plenty of data on the DLC characters in the last month.

 

[Volimutt]

Uh huh, Bowser can charge through the shakunetsu hadoken until past 150% damage. I also wrote down how Bowser can tough guy Lucas' PK thunder and Dtilt.

Dtilt (far hit) 0-27%
PK Thunder (tail) 0-115%

Frame data wasn't available for the DLC characters when I tried to grab ranges for moves we armor, so I wasn't savvy of how Lucas has THREE hitboxes of varying power on his Dtilt, instead of two. And I think those hitboxes have had changes to their power in this latest update, so don't take that range seriously. I'll find the correct one sometime soon, along with any stuff I've missed. I'm sure people have compiled plenty of data on the DLC characters in the last month.

Mmmm thanks for that Lucas tidbit. I'll take any an all info ya have to offer on the King and Jr too if ya got any~

 

[Big Sean]

Stray and I did some down smash testing on the ledge tonight. I really feel like this should be in every Bowser's kit. It kills at ~100%. It punishes:

1. normal get up
2. jump
3. roll
4. get up attack
5. some types of ledge jumps
6. hanging on the ledge without invincibility

If someone drops and moves away that can beat down smash. If someone delays on the ledge they can beat down smash but actually the beauty of using this post 100% is they have a very short ledge invincibility so hanging on might not even be a winning option after a certain percentage. The major issue with the move is that the spacing is very tight. His front foot should be about half a foot away from the ledge.

My opinion is that if someone is going to grab the ledge at ~100%, and you don't have a hard read on their get up option, we should always be defaulting to down smash.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Where do you need to stand to cover all those options at once?

 

[Big Sean]

Where do you need to stand to cover all those options at once?

Face the ledge and look at the length of bowser's foot. You want to be about a quarter foot away from the ledge. You might be able to get closer and cover more types of ledge jumps but I didn't test it that much. That's the distance that worked for me to cover all of those.

I forgot to mention though is that if they roll it doesn't kill because it shoots them the other way. It's still down smash damage though!

 

[Jerodak]

At lower percents some other option covers are retreating fortress which works much like dsmash with less power but more versatility. Moving away from the ledge as you do it not only helps cover rolls, it also makes it more likely that you launch the opponent back offstage.

Also, spacing firebreath properly at the ledge can cover get-up options very well and should be quite safe.

But if you want to take a bit of a risk, here's an interesting option, forward smash. If you space it right it can beat ledge attacks, rolls, and standing up if you feel confident trying to time that.

Up smash can beat multiple options too but, like forward smash, you're trading wider coverage for a bigger punish. It can beat ledge attacks, rolls, and standing up. It could also beat ledge hopping as long as they have to go through the auto-guard. The horizontal range is less than dsmash though so if you move close enough to catch ledge jumping you effectively opt out of punishing ledge rolls. I could see this being a tricky mix up, especially if used in tandem with ledge trumping.

 

[MrEh]

I never noticed that delayed jab 2 actually inches us backwards slightly. Herp derp.

Try walking backwards immediately after a Jab 1.

Bowser goes crazy with momentum. (this is actually good in certain matchups, since you can also jab 1, buffer a dash backwards, and pivot grab)

 

[Jerodak]

@ MrEh and with it's latest buffs, jab to walk back up tilt might be a viable option vs some characters.

 

[MrEh]

The best trick ever is to jab 1, walk backwards, and reverse Bowser Bomb.

Worth it? Probably not. But hot damn it's awesome when it works.

 

[Jerodak]

Jab at the ledge looks pretty good too. You can use a bunch of different options to catch your opponent jumping or air dodging and it seems to set up low recoveries pretty well. It looks like some characters can be jabbed out of their ledge snaps also. Unless they snap at the sweetspot or something.

 

[Volimutt]

Try walking backwards immediately after a Jab 1.

Bowser goes crazy with momentum. (this is actually good in certain matchups, since you can also jab 1, buffer a dash backwards, and pivot grab)

This jab momentum is also pretty cool with Bowser's crouch. Jab, crouch(repeat.) He does a quick jab succession which can be linked together. Only thing is the momentum will shove Bowser back each time. I think you can get about 2 or 3 jabs in before you get outta range.

 

[Jerodak]

@ Volimutt Hi, those jab 1 strings are pretty cool, probably much better than they were in brawl. It may not combo but you can get frame traps, roll baits, and some other great stuff from it.

 

[S_B]

Stray and I did some down smash testing on the ledge tonight. I really feel like this should be in every Bowser's kit. It kills at ~100%. It punishes:

1. normal get up
2. jump
3. roll
4. get up attack
5. some types of ledge jumps
6. hanging on the ledge without invincibility

If someone drops and moves away that can beat down smash. If someone delays on the ledge they can beat down smash but actually the beauty of using this post 100% is they have a very short ledge invincibility so hanging on might not even be a winning option after a certain percentage. The major issue with the move is that the spacing is very tight. His front foot should be about half a foot away from the ledge.

My opinion is that if someone is going to grab the ledge at ~100%, and you don't have a hard read on their get up option, we should always be defaulting to down smash.

I actually just noticed this today when Dsmash beat DK's get up attack. Has this always been the case or is that actually new?

 

[Big Sean]

I actually just noticed this today when Dsmash beat DK's get up attack. Has this always been the case or is that actually new?

Always. @ J Jerodak was the person who showed me this in the first place months ago. I just thought in light of the patch I should reintroduce this move to the boards as a move that has potential. Another fun fact I learned from @a stray cat yesterday is that it's a trivial thing to get to the 1 frame vulnerability when grabbing the ledge. He killed a rosa with it yesterday. Again always existed but the buff made this move even more useful on the ledge because it lowered the necessary kill percentage by like 20-30%.

 

[S_B]

We were just lamenting klaw's krappiness in the 1.10 changes thread and I thought of something...

I would be COMPLETELY fine with klaw functioning as it does now with ONE change: if it had SA frames somewhere on it.

Now, I don't mean during the entire duration, start to finish, but maybe after Bowser is reaching past his waist, right up to when the actual hitbox happens so it wouldn't actually be GRAB armor.

I see it as more of a recovery tool than anything, but it's still not perfect: if you can bait it out of the Bowser player early, s/he's still hosed. I see it being used like Olimar's whistle or villager's pocket: use it to guarantee a return to the stage more than anything.

And no, I don't think dash slash should have it...

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Klaw sucks now?

 

[S_B]

Klaw sucks now?

Debatable, but......
-Smaller hitbox than Brawl
-Shorter hitbox than Brawl (I think)
-No more koopa hopping
-No more grab armor
-Bowser dies first on most stages, making it a liability to use in many cases, especially against opponents who can recover from the bottom of the screen

The only saving grace it has is that they gave Bowser more control over it than the opponent so it cannot be used against him as easily.

Other than that, most seem to believe that it's awful and I too wish we at least had its Brawl incarnation back.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Oh, that? I was referring if it changed since the last patch, since I don't have access to a WiiU or the latest patch for 3DS...

I think this Klaw isn't as insane and useful as it was in Brawl, but it's excellent for killing.

 

[S_B]

I think this Klaw isn't as insane and useful as it was in Brawl, but it's excellent for killing.

It definitely can, but its finicky hitbox is the bane of most of our existences and the liability of someone potentially using it to kill YOU just sucks in general.

There's a reason most people swear by dash slash instead.

I'd just like to see some other kind of utility added to it, and SA (or at least heavy armor) would give it just that.

 

[Jerodak]

Klaw sucks now?

It was hugely nerfed in several ways:

- Grab armor is gone.
- It has very little range.
- It can whiff point-blank.
- You can no longer act out of the flip animation that follows.
- The one second grab immunity thing.
- The bowsercide bug.

In exchange however:

- More control in the air.
- Earlier and more reliable K.O potential.
- It can hit bystanders.

Did I leave out anything?

Oh, that? I was referring if it changed since the last patch, since I don't have access to a WiiU or the latest patch for 3DS...

Oh...

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Yeah, I know a ton of characters in this game would KILL for Bowser's frame 8 command grab that kills at reasonable percents, even without platforms. In this game's shield heavy meta, what few command grabs exist (Ganon's flame choke, Diddy's Monkey Flip) often define their character's neutral and pressure game. The aerial version isn't so hot for actually grabbing your opponent, but the lagless feature is revolutionary. In most scenarios where Bowser has to land, we can side B instead of tech the ground. This is a huge curve in difficulty when you're trying to punish Bowser's landings. Tech chasing him is no problem, shielding a desperate Fair is no problem. But having to deal with the possibility that you will grabbed out of shield, or that Bowser can pull up shield instead of teching? That's a game changer, and I can't think of another character that has this sort of mixup.

Flying Slam is honestly pretty important to Bowser. I don't know how I'd play him without it. And a few frames of super armor would just be a weird gimmick. A move that beats shields and incoming attacks? There's almost no room for counterplay besides avoiding it entirely. In other words: broken.

If they increased the aerial hitbox for the move, that would be a fantastic buff. Between that and Bowser bombs, shielding would feel particularly risky against Bowser. As for the grounded hitbox, I've studied how and when we whiff. The best advice I can give is to stop trying to grab behind your opponent. Some moves just don't begin from the base of your character. And this one only whiffs when performed during a dash or run.

 

[S_B]

Flying Slam is honestly pretty important to Bowser. I don't know how I'd play him without it.

It's definitely doable, as custom tournaments usually see Bowsers using it.

And a few frames of super armor would just be a weird gimmick. A move that beats shields and incoming attacks? There's almost no room for counterplay besides avoiding it entirely. In other words: broken.

It was just a thought, though I don't think it'd be THAT bad, especially not if the SA frames didn't happen immediately and you'd have to time it perfectly to get the benefit. A 4-5 frame window would still be crazy hard to exploit.

If they increased the aerial hitbox for the move, that would be a fantastic buff.

This is what we've wanted for a while but Sakurai seems like he has no intention of giving it to us.

Hell, just making it not whiff at point blank would be huge for us...

 

[Jerodak]

@ Zapp Branniglenn Great post, but a few things I would like to point out. The low lag landing could very likey be done by a lot of other characters that have low lag or generous auto cancel aerials. Unless aerials come out way later than specials can. As for whiffing side b. I already know why it whiffs, I was just listing pros and cons to answer the question that I thought oz had asked. Regardless, it's still an irritating quirk, and could use adjustment.

 

[Cassius.]

super armor and grab armor are two very different things, guys. Klaw had grab armor, as did every single grab move in the previous game. That was removed entirely and changes the way grabs as an option works altogether. Super armor on a grab is stupid, since EX versions of moves don't really exist in this game. Super armor (on Bowser) in general is a really, REALLY bad idea. You have to be very careful with that or you will end up breaking a character.

I've been saying for a long while that Klaw is better than dash slash overall. I never bought into the custom hype for Bowser anyway, even though everyone was enamored with the move. Dash Slash is obviously better in a few MUs, but Klaw is *very* hard to give up.

 

[MagiusNecros]

If anything regarding armor should be said it's make tough guy better. Or let us have moving crouch armor Bowser. Because TG is more of a hindrance then a help.