Jerodak
Smash Lord
Not having to jump I guess.
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Data Bowser's Moveset Data & Discussion
- Thread starter Jerodak
- Start date
B!squick
Smash Master
You're forced to land after Klaw though.
That sounds reversed, I notice the aerial animation more than the grounded one before I grab someone. it also feels like I have to do the move more in advance
Can someone verify?
MrEh
Smash Hero
Klaw is frame 8. Jab-->Klaw is a frame trap when done against a wall, so Klaw is 8. Someone got the values mixed up there.
Also, turns out that Jab 1 is probably +7 on hit. With perfect timing, Jab->Dtilt/Ftilt might actually be a real frame trap even against spot dodges. If it does, it'll be a 1 frame link, but it looks possible.
Also, turns out that Jab 1 is probably +7 on hit. With perfect timing, Jab->Dtilt/Ftilt might actually be a real frame trap even against spot dodges. If it does, it'll be a 1 frame link, but it looks possible.
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Jerodak
Smash Lord
You were able to confirm this during your frame data testing?
MrEh
Smash Hero
Big YES.
Jab 1 is +7 on hit. What does that mean for us? A lot. It confirms a lot of things that have been working for me in matches, but I wasn't sure how real it was. It's real.
Imagine a situation where you hit your opponent with Bowser's Jab. This should be happening a lot in your matches, since Jab is Bowser's fastest normal and is his go-to poke. You're goddamn Bowser, it's not like you have anything safer to be throwing out against your opponent.
+7 advantage on hit from a Jab is utterly bonkers. To put things in perspective, Bowser's Jab 1 in Brawl was -17 on hit. MINUS SEVENTEEN.. While Jab is no longer the insanely safe poke it was in Brawl due to the huge range nerf, the current Jab has gained the disgusting ability to frame trap people.
After you hit your opponent with Jab 1, you recover 7 frames faster than your opponent. That means that you have roughly 0.117 seconds to do whatever you want to your opponent. A whole 0.117 seconds! Wow! Sounds like crap you say? It's not.
While 7 frames isn't enough time for Jab 1 to combo into most other moves, there are some attacks that can be used to frame trap your opponent, basically covering a bunch of their offensive and defensive options. If you do a different attack after a successful Jab 1, you can smack your opponent before your opponent can hit you in many situations.
Let's look at someone like Marth. Marth is easy to frame trap with Jab because his grounded moves actually aren't very quick, allowing you to hit him during the startup of many of his attacks and options. Marth's fastest grounded move is his Jab, which hits on frame 5. So let's use that as an example.
You hit Marth with Jab 1, and you're now at +7 advantage. You then use a grounded Bowser Bomb, which hits on frame 11. That means that there's 4 frames inbetween the Jab 1 and Bowser Bomb where your opponent can hit you. If Marth tries to mash his Jab in this instance, he will get hit.
Rolls have startup. Most rolls in this game have 3 frames of startup, and only become invincible on frame 4. Let's say that you try a Dtilt or Ftilt instead of a Bowser Bomb. Both moves hit on frame 10, meaning that your opponent only has 3 frames to stop you in this instance. Since most rolls take 4 frames to become invincible, Bowser will smack them out of their roll startup! If you're up against an opponent who mashes roll as a defensive reaction, this is a good way to blow up their shoddy play.
Your opponent can always just shield your frame traps, since shielding comes out on frame 1. However, if you opted to go for a Bowser Bomb, you might break your opponent's shield if they're not paying attention. Bowser's Dash Grab comes out on frame 10, making it barely fast enough to use for frame traps as well. Spot dodging happens to be fast enough to stop most of Bowser's frame traps. However, Dtilt conveniently hits opponents out of spotdodges very easily, and has a lot of shield push and stun, making it quite safe on block. Dtilt is the go-to move for blowing up defensive reactions to your frame traps. Keep in mind that a handful of characters have moves that come out in 3 frames or less, which prevent you from going for frame traps if they mash and the move has enough range to reach you.
Jab 1 for frame traps is legit. There is no greater joy than jabbing someone, and then hitting them with Bowser Bomb because they were mashing like a scrub.
Jab 1 is +7 on hit. What does that mean for us? A lot. It confirms a lot of things that have been working for me in matches, but I wasn't sure how real it was. It's real.
WHY THIS IS AMAZING?
+7 advantage on hit from a Jab is utterly bonkers. To put things in perspective, Bowser's Jab 1 in Brawl was -17 on hit. MINUS SEVENTEEN.. While Jab is no longer the insanely safe poke it was in Brawl due to the huge range nerf, the current Jab has gained the disgusting ability to frame trap people.
FRAME TRAPS SOUND LIKE FUN! HOW CAN I ABUSE THIS?
While 7 frames isn't enough time for Jab 1 to combo into most other moves, there are some attacks that can be used to frame trap your opponent, basically covering a bunch of their offensive and defensive options. If you do a different attack after a successful Jab 1, you can smack your opponent before your opponent can hit you in many situations.
HOW ABOUT AN EXAMPLE?
You hit Marth with Jab 1, and you're now at +7 advantage. You then use a grounded Bowser Bomb, which hits on frame 11. That means that there's 4 frames inbetween the Jab 1 and Bowser Bomb where your opponent can hit you. If Marth tries to mash his Jab in this instance, he will get hit.
THAT'S COOL AND ALL, BUT MY OPPONENT IS JUST GONNA ROLL AWAY FROM ME!
THIS SOUNDS AMAZING! WHAT CAN MY OPPONENT DO ABOUT THIS?
TL:DR
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MagiusNecros
Smash Master
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2014
- Messages
- 3,176
So basically if they roll after jab 1 you can wait and go for Dtilt/Ftilt and if they get reliant on shielding we can jab 1 and go straight into Bowser Bomb probably causing a shield break. This sounds really useful.
How is the frame trap setup for Jab 1 > Fortress?
How is the frame trap setup for Jab 1 > Fortress?
MrEh
Smash Hero
Bad. Fortress has no range and doesn't reach.
Hilariously, Fortress is fast enough to COMBO after Jab 1. It's just that Fortress doesn't reach in most situations, so it's moot.
MagiusNecros
Smash Master
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2014
- Messages
- 3,176
It's a shame that Utilt doesn't really hit anything from the front. Because Jab 1 > Utilt > UpSmash would have been wonderful.
Jerodak
Smash Lord
leekslap
Smash Ace
Hey mans! I'm a Bowser main finally apparently. I was sure I was gonna be going from character to character, but no. So now I'm gonna say stuff and stop sounding like a drunk guy in my head cause it is really showing.
Why aren't Bowser mains more grounded? I thought it was pretty obvious to do that since he has so much end lag when he lands with an aerial, but he has some really solid options on the ground. I agree his Jab 1 is pretty awesome and Jab 2 isn't so bad as some sort of GTFO move in conjunction with Jab 1. Down tilt is very underused. It's actually pretty good for pressure. Speaking of pressure, Bowser DESTROYS shields. Nair, down tilt, and jab are the ones I use most but he probably has more ultra powerful smash attacks that eats shields like down b. I actually broke a shield with a raw down b. Made that Toon Link player really mad because he was at 70% and I was at freakin 150%. Bowser is the master of comebacks and the master of rage. That's why you should never camp against Bowser. Just sayin.
Also, if you don't want 20 frames of lag when you land, both bair and fair autocancel off a short hop.
Some of the advice in the OP is outdated. Bowsercide no longer favors Bowser but side b is still a powerful kill move that can even adjust its position to get a higher chance for a kill.
I dunno if this has been said before but I'm new and Im rushing because the battery is almost out.
Why aren't Bowser mains more grounded? I thought it was pretty obvious to do that since he has so much end lag when he lands with an aerial, but he has some really solid options on the ground. I agree his Jab 1 is pretty awesome and Jab 2 isn't so bad as some sort of GTFO move in conjunction with Jab 1. Down tilt is very underused. It's actually pretty good for pressure. Speaking of pressure, Bowser DESTROYS shields. Nair, down tilt, and jab are the ones I use most but he probably has more ultra powerful smash attacks that eats shields like down b. I actually broke a shield with a raw down b. Made that Toon Link player really mad because he was at 70% and I was at freakin 150%. Bowser is the master of comebacks and the master of rage. That's why you should never camp against Bowser. Just sayin.
Also, if you don't want 20 frames of lag when you land, both bair and fair autocancel off a short hop.
Some of the advice in the OP is outdated. Bowsercide no longer favors Bowser but side b is still a powerful kill move that can even adjust its position to get a higher chance for a kill.
I dunno if this has been said before but I'm new and Im rushing because the battery is almost out.
B!squick
Smash Master
Bowser has decent aerial options now between his improved air moves and higher jumping. I'd prefer just having the SIdeB of yore, but Bowser can't have nice things it seems.
Jerodak
Smash Lord
Thanks for the heads up.
Edit: If there are any other errors in the OP that I overlooked please let me know.
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Cassius.
you're deadMEAT.
i'm not sure what bowser players you're watching, leekslap, but most of the seasoned ones will spend a majority of their time grounded or going for a short hop FAir (which i'm still not a fan of)
i cringe everytime I see a Bowser player FAir into a shield. It happens more frequently than you think since we actually have something we can call a "Bowser Playerbase" now, although DAir seems to be the new facepalm move lol
i cringe everytime I see a Bowser player FAir into a shield. It happens more frequently than you think since we actually have something we can call a "Bowser Playerbase" now, although DAir seems to be the new facepalm move lol
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B!squick
Smash Master
Yeah, pretty sure Jab1 has fixed knockback so it can link with the second hit of the combo.
Jerodak
Smash Lord
Cool, maybe there will be some interesting character specific stuff then.
Karsticles
Smash Journeyman
Do we have frame data for Fortress? I didn't see it in the OP. That is the data I really want to know. I would love a discussion on punish options in the frame data context. Klaw vs. Shield grab vs. Fortress vs. Bowser Bomb.
B!squick
Smash Master
Close Anragon, it's 6-7.
Zigsta
Disney Film Director
MrEh
Smash Hero
Numbers and testing support that Jab->Dash Grab ALSO works.
I've been getting it, but there might be additional factors on whether or not it works. Seems to be dependent on whether or not your opponent has a 3 frame spotdodge or not.
I'll look into that as well, since this is insanely good. Shouldn't be too hard to test, since I have a feeling you can buffer dash grabs out of Jab 1 since you have to input the dash and not the A button first. That should make the link much easier than Dtilt/Ftilt. I'll look into it.
I've been getting it, but there might be additional factors on whether or not it works. Seems to be dependent on whether or not your opponent has a 3 frame spotdodge or not.
I'll look into that as well, since this is insanely good. Shouldn't be too hard to test, since I have a feeling you can buffer dash grabs out of Jab 1 since you have to input the dash and not the A button first. That should make the link much easier than Dtilt/Ftilt. I'll look into it.
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MagiusNecros
Smash Master
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2014
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- 3,176
What about Jab 1 > Dash Attack?
B!squick
Smash Master
@
MagiusNecros
Possibly. Not sure if the frame data here factors in initiating a dash or not, but even if it did, FTilt and DTIlt both come out 1 frame faster and deal more damage anyway.
MagiusNecros
Possibly. Not sure if the frame data here factors in initiating a dash or not, but even if it did, FTilt and DTIlt both come out 1 frame faster and deal more damage anyway.
MrEh
Smash Hero
From what I was testing, it works kind of ok since you can buffer it. I think Dtilt is better though.
MagiusNecros
Smash Master
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2014
- Messages
- 3,176
I just want to know what all of our options are so we know what we can do out of these Frame Traps. Out of our normals Dtilt does the most damage.
MrEh
Smash Hero
If you want to go for the manliest of reads, utilize that weird reverse momentum thing that Bowser's Jabs have. (it was mentioned on page 9)
Jab 1, walk backwards, Fsmash. If your opponent spot dodged or mashed something, you'll kick them in the face.
Jab 1, walk backwards, Fsmash. If your opponent spot dodged or mashed something, you'll kick them in the face.
Zigsta
Disney Film Director
^This is absolutely hilarious when it lands.
Karsticles
Smash Journeyman
Do we have a video of the Jab 1 reverse momentum?
TheGreatShal
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Dec 1, 2014
- Messages
- 32
Yeah, Videos and pictures of these things would help me most since I've always been a visual learner, my mind fries when I see a long tutorial with no pictures haha.
MagiusNecros
Smash Master
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2014
- Messages
- 3,176
Basically you use jab 1 and you start walking away. Usually Bowser does a slow walk. But instead he walks faster as if he is going on a bunny stomping crusade.
Jerodak
Smash Lord
You don't even need to walk, both jabs will slide you backwards on their own if you do anything during the frames where Bowser is drawing his arms back, just go into training mode and slowly tap the a button till you get the rhythm where each jab is happening during the proper frames, Bowser will slowly but surely begin to move backwards across the stage bit by bit with each jab.
With the introduction of MrEh's ledge vulnerability thing, I think that using this for setting up ledge bombs might actually be viable tech now since it may make timing the ledge bomb for the ledge vulnerability a bit easier. It might also be useful for using a Fair to hit ledge vulnerability since Fair is somewhat active and can stage spike decently well. Basically the set-up would entail rolling or crawling backwards into the ledge, whiffing a jab, then neutral jumping, don't press back during the jump, the momentum will take care of it, this is very subtle and most opponents will probably not be aware of what you're doing so you could probably get some sneaky ledge trumps out of this too. The only thing is you'd need enough time to actually use the set-up before they make it back to the ledge.
Also, I can confirm that Upsmash doesn't care about K.O punch, I played a solid mac the other day and I managed to up smash during his K.O punch, it was really weird though, The moves klanked then I got pushed backwards almost half the stage's length, Of course I taunted afterwards.
I was also able to klank out Mac's Fsmash using Ftilt, I was really surprised when this happened, maybe it was stale? Perhaps we might want to look a little more into that, perhaps it could be helpful somewhat.
With the introduction of MrEh's ledge vulnerability thing, I think that using this for setting up ledge bombs might actually be viable tech now since it may make timing the ledge bomb for the ledge vulnerability a bit easier. It might also be useful for using a Fair to hit ledge vulnerability since Fair is somewhat active and can stage spike decently well. Basically the set-up would entail rolling or crawling backwards into the ledge, whiffing a jab, then neutral jumping, don't press back during the jump, the momentum will take care of it, this is very subtle and most opponents will probably not be aware of what you're doing so you could probably get some sneaky ledge trumps out of this too. The only thing is you'd need enough time to actually use the set-up before they make it back to the ledge.
Also, I can confirm that Upsmash doesn't care about K.O punch, I played a solid mac the other day and I managed to up smash during his K.O punch, it was really weird though, The moves klanked then I got pushed backwards almost half the stage's length, Of course I taunted afterwards.
I was also able to klank out Mac's Fsmash using Ftilt, I was really surprised when this happened, maybe it was stale? Perhaps we might want to look a little more into that, perhaps it could be helpful somewhat.
MrEh
Smash Hero
Probably the autoguard.
Jerodak
Smash Lord
Yeah, It actually took me a second before I realized what happened, it just looked so strange and the mac player seemed confused too, lol.
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rekt
Smash Cadet
So much stuff to practice... I'm looking to pick up a secondary main to cover bowser's weaknesses. Does he have any glaring ones? Who would do the best in countering them? Is it even worth my time?
Super excited to try out all the frame trapping and reverse momentum mind games. >
Super excited to try out all the frame trapping and reverse momentum mind games. >
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B!squick
Smash Master
Um... who WOULD be a good secondary for Bowser... Probably not Pac Man, but I really like playing as Pac Man randomly.
Jigglypuff?
Jigglypuff?
TheGreatShal
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Dec 1, 2014
- Messages
- 32
This is only my opinion, but I feel like with all this new information and such, we really need to make a new Bowser guide. I'm not saying the only one is bad, it isn't, but I do feel we should update it (With pictures and videos.).
B!squick
Smash Master
Who needs a guide for Bowser though? All you need to know is Jab, pivot grab, USmash, and UpB OoS. Anything else like SHAD cancel into B moves is just gravy.
And winning inevitable.
And winning inevitable.
Jerodak
Smash Lord
So I tried jab to side b a few times, I do quite enjoy it, and according to current information it's frame 8 and jab is +7 so it's only -1 when linking the two, making it virtually guaranteed on most characters as long as they are in range and the damage is pretty decent. Also, I still like side B for positioning and early K.Os on platforms.