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Data Bowser's Moveset Data & Discussion

EarthenPillar

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Haven't posted a while. I discovered a couple stupid things about Bowser recently. I need some others to help me confirm these:
1. Whiffing cliff grab can really happen if tripped. Whole sprite just won't collide with edge just some invisible wall nonsense.
2. Bowser's Bair has hurtbox on his feet. ie. Wii Fit Trainer's SideB's meteor will catch you even when facing away from Bowser as Bair hits with tip of his feet.
 
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Jerodak

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Haven't posted a while. I discovered a couple stupid things about Bowser recently. I need some others to help me confirm these:
1. Whiffing cliff grab can really happen if tripped. Whole sprite just won't collide with edge just some invisible wall nonsense.
???????

2. Bowser's Bair has hurtbox on his feet. ie. Wii Fit Trainer's SideB's meteor will catch you even when facing away from Bowser as Bair hits with tip of his feet.
Confirmed, the only kick attack with intangible legs is Fsmash.
 

MrEh

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Edit: @ MrEh MrEh We all know that walk-up shielding got heavily nerfed thanks to the start-up to the walking animation. So, I'm wondering, does the time it take to crouch shorter than the start-up of the walk and could we viably use crawl-up shield as a replacement? Crawling offers roughly the same benefits as walking and is about the same speed, at least when walking forwards and both the crouching and standing animations appear to be made up completely of IASA frames, so it's not like we lost access to any neutral options, it does make up tilt and down smash a bit harder to execute though, and you'd need to be sure to return to neutral when going for firebreath, and it doesn't hurt that Bowser is a bit shorter during the crouching animation either, I suppose moving away without changing directions is also useful.
iirc, the startup of walking can still be canceled with a shield at any time, but I could be wrong.

I do know you can't shield during run startup though.
 

Jerodak

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iirc, the startup of walking can still be canceled with a shield at any time, but I could be wrong.

I do know you can't shield during run startup though.
My only issue with walk-up shield is against some projectiles, the rate of fire is too fast and you don't gain any ground because the walk start-up takes too long. Running is definitely less safe, even though Bowser might actually have the safest run in the game.
 

UltimaLuminaire

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In the case of the rate of fire being too fast, jump OoS becomes an option once the projectile hits the shield. At the risk of eating another projectile if you land incorrectly, you will be able to gain some ground. Best example is against Sheik's needle spam. Obviously, you still need to be careful with how close you get and you still want to avoid being hit when landing.

@ MrEh MrEh hahahahahaha Homunculus
 

MagiusNecros

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My only issue with walk-up shield is against some projectiles, the rate of fire is too fast and you don't gain any ground because the walk start-up takes too long. Running is definitely less safe, even though Bowser might actually have the safest run in the game.
So what about Jab 1 > Powerwalk >Shield?
 

Jerodak

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In the case of the rate of fire being too fast, jump OoS becomes an option once the projectile hits the shield. At the risk of eating another projectile if you land incorrectly, you will be able to gain some ground. Best example is against Sheik's needle spam. Obviously, you still need to be careful with how close you get and you still want to avoid being hit when landing.
That's definitely an option too, I think the fastest rate of fire in the game of a projectile with hitstun is Falco's laser, so It might be good to test all approach to shield options there as a benchmark. I know for a fact that In the case of Greninja shuriken spam as fast as possible you can approach the entire distance with running shields without being hit at all. I don't recommend always running because of the initial dash frames but I also don't think we should look at run to shield itself as a bad thing either. Like every other tool in Bowser's arsenal it's only bad when you use it improperly or predictably.

So what about Jab 1 > Powerwalk >Shield?
Unfortunately this would require your back facing the opponent, I could see this as maybe an option for spacing when you need to move away from the opponent more quickly and don't want to use the run, the jab could help cover some options too. I wouldn't use it as an approach though.


Edit: Hey Guys, I'm sure we all like to perform retreating Fairs every now any then, sometimes running up to the opponent, or more likely a certain distance from them, then doing a retreating Fair can be used to control space, unfortunately if you do this while running the forward momentum works against the retreating aerial and you hardly get any distance, this makes it pretty difficult to use Bowser's aerials for any kind of pressure and it makes it fairly risky even when using the aerial for controlling space. However, I found out that if you jump out of a shield during a run, that you can jump backwards without the initial momentum affecting you at all, even better, it can be done quickly enough so that the shield doesn't even show up. This allows you to get at least twice the drift when doing a retreating Fair, and it can probably be used for some other stuff as well. This might already be a well known tactic for some of the more seasoned players here, but for those who are newer, perhaps this might help you to improve your game a little bit. Although, I still don't recommend just throwing aerials out, unless you know exactly what you want that aerial to do for you.
 
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Zigsta

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I never thought I would be saying this, but I'm actually using Bowser Bomb more than fsmash at this point. I've won a handful of tournament sets by saving jab>Bomb for my opponent's last stock--it can be a big surprise if you save it against some people!

As far as aerials go, I have NEVER been a fan of retreating fair, especially in a game without Bowser's Koopa Hop. If you want to pressure with an retreating aerial, go with bair instead. I find that opponents respect retreating bairs far more than retreating fairs due to its insane KO power. In general, though, I find it's best to remain grounded as much as possible in neutral, with aerials only used for edgeguarding, juggling, or mixups.
 

B!squick

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I wonder if a FF BAir after a Jab boosted (what short hand should we use for this, btw? JB?) would be a good edge guard technique. Or even better, DAir. Because Bowser.

And screw retreating aerials, just SHADC Fortress, Bowser Bomb at kill percents. So, like half of the time.

Kinda shocked how technical Bowser is this time around. Brawl was pretty much just Klaw Hopping, studying grab releases, and FSmash dodging Marth FSmashes. And if custom moves ever become a regular thing, Dash Slash just make life SO much easier.
 

MagiusNecros

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Personally run off Fair as Bowser is the most amazing thing when you kill with it. Your opponent if you never use it beforehand will be like "What is he trying to---" and they get KO-ed.

Of course they will scream obscenities if you style kill them with Dair.
 

Jerodak

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As far as aerials go, I have NEVER been a fan of retreating fair, especially in a game without Bowser's Koopa Hop. If you want to pressure with an retreating aerial, go with bair instead. I find that opponents respect retreating bairs far more than retreating fairs due to its insane KO power. In general, though, I find it's best to remain grounded as much as possible in neutral, with aerials only used for edgeguarding, juggling, or mixups.
Sometimes I use a retreating Bair when I'm already running away from someone chasing me, but I wouldn't like to use it as my sole pressure tool, Fair exposes less hurtbox, has better range, and covers more options. So it's not a bad idea now and again to throw it out to control space. For instance, when you have the opponent cornered a retreating Fair could cover rolling away or using a full hop in attempts to escape. I've gotten a fair bit of mileage from retreating Fairs, but I guess that's just different strokes for different folks. Also, you don't have to use the shield back jump for doing retreating aerials, you could just use it to do an empty jump back, which would move you away faster than walking if i'm not mistaken, and it'd be a little less risky than running, could be useful in some situations for spacing.

And screw retreating aerials, just SHADC Fortress, Bowser Bomb at kill percents. So, like half of the time.

Retreating Bair and Fair both are much less committing than Air-dodge canceling because when you do a short hop airdodge you always have to take big end lag in some form or another and you have to commit to an attack if you don't want the 22 landing frames from the air dodge. With a retreating Fair, you are moving away from the opponent, creating some breathing room, can fast fall to cancel the aerial sooner, and you only get the hard landing frames when you reach the ground, so you return to neutral stance a lot quicker. Also, Air dodge cancel specials and short hopped fairs cover different options. So when and why you'd use either completely varies based on who you're fighting, and what they are doing.
 

B!squick

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They didn't balance the customs though.

.... So yeah, more of that in my tournys please. And less 2 stocks, my god. I cry a little every time I pull up a vid and it's a 2 stock match.

Also, can't you Klaw just before landing a SHAD and not have any at all?
 

Jerodak

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Also, can't you Klaw just before landing a SHAD and not have any at all?
If you can, then that's really good because it means we get to have Brawl-esque airdodge gimmicks. However, even in that case, it's still not automatically better than using SH Fair's for zoning because they still would cover different options. Air-dodge canceling is best used when you're attempting to move through an attack that has lag like Robin's PK fire, or Yoshi's eggs, and you know whatever you do next will connect 100% guaranteed.

A retreating Short Hopped Fair would be more like a poke that's being thrown out to control an area that the opponent wants to be, it can be used as a punishment tool, especially in the case of rolling, but it's main use is as a zoning tool, and possibly for baiting. I'm not saying air dodge canceling is bad, just that it's not always the best option to use.
 

B!squick

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If you can, then that's really good because it means we get to have Brawl-esque airdodge gimmicks. However, even in that case, it's still not automatically better than using SH Fair's for zoning because they still would cover different options. Air-dodge canceling is best used when you're attempting to move through an attack that has lag like Robin's PK fire, or Yoshi's eggs, and you know whatever you do next will connect 100% guaranteed.

A retreating Short Hopped Fair would be more like a poke that's being thrown out to control an area that the opponent wants to be, it can be used as a punishment tool, especially in the case of rolling, but it's main use is as a zoning tool, and possibly for baiting. I'm not saying air dodge canceling is bad, just that it's not always the best option to use.
Yeah, I know it's not. It just looks so awesome in action
 

Hitman JT

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That's why I'm a strong advocate for custom moves. Not because it's a cop out way to make our main better, but because it makes the game more balanced and diverse overall.
Lolno. Allow customs and all you'll see is Donkey Kong, Rosalina and Sheik. Maaayyyybe Mario.
 
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Jerodak

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Yes you can have seamless transitions into Fortress, Klaw, Bomb(lawl), and Flame Breath from a SHAD.
Then you take the end lag of whichever of those moves you used, which is why I was saying it was a huge commitment. However, I think he was asking if you could time a Klaw to just land with Aerial klaw's "lag" which is basically just a hard landing so you return to neutral directly out of the airdodge. I've actually been wondering about that myself, but I doubt it's possible from a short-hop airdodge. Although that would be really good for us if it were.
 

MagiusNecros

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Then you take the end lag of whichever of those moves you used, which is why I was saying it was a huge commitment. However, I think he was asking if you could time a Klaw to just land with Aerial klaw's "lag" which is basically just a hard landing so you return to neutral directly out of the airdodge. I've actually been wondering about that myself, but I doubt it's possible from a short-hop airdodge. Although that would be really good for us if it were.
I'll try a dodge klaw test and see if I can transition into a jab or anything. Doubt it though.
 

MagiusNecros

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Sorry for dbl post but SHAD Klaw transition into another attack doesn't work(if it does then it's really strict) but a Full Hop Air Dodge into Klaw does. So ground Klaw must have a longer cooldown period then aerial klaw but any attack after klaw is pretty much immediate on the aerial version. Even Fsmash. So it's really hard to react to. Might be useful. That said Ftilt is probably the go to option since it's a lot safer.

Gonna play with it a bit more.
 

MrEh

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Lolno. Allow customs and all you'll see is Donkey Kong, Rosalina and Sheik. Maaayyyybe Mario.
As opposed to a game where you only see Sheik and Diddy amirite?

Testing at our own monthlies have shown a broadened character usage pool and less polarizing results among the top tiers. But hey, I guess actual data is nothing compared to subjective banter on the internet.
 

MagiusNecros

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Eh I think custom usage means learning more matchups. Which will evolve character playstyles. It's too early to say the top contenders will reside once more with waifu's and monkey's.
 

MrEh

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Custom usage does increase the matchup knowledge required to play the game somewhat. However, if that's a deterrent from using customs, then that's a very scrubby mentality to have.

There are a handful of games more competitive than smash that have character customization even more impactful than customs. (See: CVS2)
 

Hitman JT

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As opposed to a game where you only see Sheik and Diddy amirite?

Testing at our own monthlies have shown a broadened character usage pool and less polarizing results among the top tiers. But hey, I guess actual data is nothing compared to subjective banter on the internet.
Damn right it isn't. :troll:

I'm all for more diversity as well as being able to Dash Slash through previously bad matchups but then we'd have to allow stuff like Mii Brawler's one-hit KO
 

Jerodak

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Is there anything other than the Mii-Brawler's up B that presents a problem to us in the match-up? Not trying to blow smoke or anything, I'm actually just wondering, since we're on the topic.
 

MagiusNecros

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Is there anything other than the Mii-Brawler's up B that presents a problem to us in the match-up? Not trying to blow smoke or anything, I'm actually just wondering, since we're on the topic.
Link's Power Bow is annoying if you suck at Powershielding. Does 20% damage at full charge and does decent Shield Damage.

But with Dash Slash we could probably just clank it away.
 

MrEh

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I'm all for more diversity as well as being able to Dash Slash through previously bad matchups but then we'd have to allow stuff like Mii Brawler's one-hit KO
One custom move is broken. Therefore let's ban all of them. That's makes sense. Mii Brawler isn't even broken with the tech. It's no where near as bad as what ICs used to be.

Is there anything other than the Mii-Brawler's up B that presents a problem to us in the match-up? Not trying to blow smoke or anything, I'm actually just wondering, since we're on the topic.
Mii Brawler is pretty bad without the tech, and even with the tech Mii Brawler isn't even the best character in the game.
 

Jigglymaster

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Mii Brawler's One Inch Punch (the Insta KO tech) doesn't work on Bowser. At all, in-fact it actually makes the matchup worse for Brawler because Bowser is so heavy it will never kill and he'd be better off connecting the full move, if he doesn't he only hits Bowser for 3% instead of 10%.

That said, Mii Brawler is still a very good character without the use of Piston Punch, as another move he has, Helicopter Kick, performs just as well, if not better, and doesn't rely on a gimmicky Instant KO which only works on the 4 lightest characters in the game, and working on some middle weights on the top platform of Battlefield and Halberd.

If you're Bowser you should never have to worry about Piston Punch. Ever.
 

Hitman JT

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One custom move is broken. Therefore let's ban all of them. That's makes sense. Mii Brawler isn't even broken with the tech. It's no where near as bad as what ICs used to be.
There's also the issue with unlocking all the customs which is long and tedious. You could make the argument that it's like unlocking every character and stage but those aren't RNG-based and don't require hours upon hours of hopeful grinding. But if there's a way to share save files that I don't know about then forget I said anything
 

Zigsta

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Not sure how many people know about this, but with the c stick set to smash you can still uptilt if you press up slightly on the control stick while you're pressing up on the c stick. I'm trying out more autocancelled bairs into uptilt as a mixup.
 

Zigsta

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Been using the above as well as up smash after autocancelled bairs as a mixup, and it's pretty great.

This week I'm curious to test if any of Bowser's aerials cancel like Falco's dair or Bowser Jr's nair. Gonna be looking pretty mainly at nair and dair. Anyone else testing this or want to help?
 

Jerodak

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Been using the above as well as up smash after autocancelled bairs as a mixup, and it's pretty great.

This week I'm curious to test if any of Bowser's aerials cancel like Falco's dair or Bowser Jr's nair. Gonna be looking pretty mainly at nair and dair. Anyone else testing this or want to help?
I'm always looking to test stuff out so this sounds good to me, just let me know when you're available.
 

Karsticles

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Been using the above as well as up smash after autocancelled bairs as a mixup, and it's pretty great.

This week I'm curious to test if any of Bowser's aerials cancel like Falco's dair or Bowser Jr's nair. Gonna be looking pretty mainly at nair and dair. Anyone else testing this or want to help?
How could Dair even possibly work?
 

Jerodak

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How could Dair even possibly work?
If it requires to hit and land within the first frame then possibly through platforms, or maybe from the ledge. It would be nice if we could do something like this with Nair especially. Nair needs a tech like this way more than Dair does, not to mention, it'd be easier to use.

Edit: I finally got a chance to do a bit of testing on a few things and I have some interesting stuff to report.

I looked into the Bowling Ball clank with up B and I found out that it's not about the first hit, it's actually about the part of the shell that gets hit, The priority is stronger towards the sides that it is directly in the middle. This also seems to be most effective against projectiles, I tried testing to see if it was possible even with the first hit to clank through non-projectiles, we tested with Toon Link's Dair. There was no dice there, but it did seem very effective against Megaman's Dair, and it SEEMED to let me clank with more of the shell even. It clanked the Dair pretty well on the ground too, and with pretty much most of the shell, the only time I got hit was really late into the animation or once when I got clipped on the very very side of the attack while it was grounded. In the air, it just klanked through and hit Megaman. Admitedly my tests on this weren't too extensive, but I think there's enough here for the general concept.

What we spent most of the time testing were ways for Bowser to abuse ledgesnap vulnerability. It turns out that Bowser's Downsmash hits the edge a little better depending on how you're standing in relation on the edge. For instance, if you have Game and watch hang from the ledge and just roll back into the ledge and do a Down smash, you'll just see the last hit knock him off. Now, if you teeter at the edge and down smash, only the last hit will knock him off still, but all of the other hits will glance off of his nose. If you move just a bit back so that about half of Bowser's foot is off the stage then the first hit of the Dsmash will snipe Game and watch off the ledge instead of the last hit. So I tried intercepting ledge snaps with this spacing, and the results look promising. Not only is it capable of catching them snapping properly, or improperly for that matter, but it's quite possible for the weaker hits to position the opponent in such a way that the last hit will cause a stage spike. They will fly directly down if this happens, and with quite powerful knock back as well, depending on the percents. However since this can be a pretty risky way to edgeguard, I also looked into Bowser's Aerial options. These are harder to use, but they can work and fair stage spikes very well.

I've also noticed that the late hit of Fair can hit someone trying to go low in a way that would avoid a normal walk-off Fair or Bair attempt but Reverse Fair will hit them, and will usually send them away from the stage. I think that this might be a pretty solid edgeguard mix-up and it actually gives a use to edge cancel side b since it lets you basically run off the stage backwards, which would be harder to read than turning around and hopping off instead.

I don't have much else to say about the other Aerials, at least not at the moment.
 
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Zigsta

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I haven't had any time to test dair/nair all this week after all--but I will before Apex for sure.

I keep forgetting to ask: has anyone tested Koopacide on Smashville and Duck Hunt yet? Those are the only stages not in the list of the OP. If no one's tested, I'll test quickly either tonight or tomorrow morning before Final Battle.
 
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