Data Bowser's Moveset Data & Discussion

[MrEh]

I know that Bowser's skid animation is good. That's not the issue here though.

The issue is if the skid animation is better than 17 frames. If it isn't, then it's moot.


If it is, then dis gun b guuuud.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Now I know you guys probably have no reason to ever use Aerial Fortress as an attack option as in a high level match it will be very unreliable to hit however on a successful punish especially on mid height to the heavies off a short hop you can use Aerial Fortress for an easy on average 22%-29% damage. And on flat stages you can possibly spin on over and grab the ledge although you run the chance of falling to your doom anyway. Or get punished. Or land on a platform and be safe. But it's a +25 damage which is always great.

Would I recommend it on a speedy character like Sheik or ZSS? No. Small characters? You'll miss so no. But heavies like DDD, Ganon, Ike and others? Yes.

Once hit a player is gonna take a chunk of damage and they can DI all they want because it won't matter.

See Bowser has combos!

Also worth noting that since the first hit is strong that's why it can clank out stuff like Villager's Bowling Ball. That first hit dealing 12% damage.

On very rare occasions it can kill with the first hit in the like 180%ish range but it'll never happen since the next hits happen immediately and have fixed go nowhere knockback.

-----------------------

I mentioned this in the Social topic but I'll mention it here too, after receiving some input in the DDD Discussion Subforum I've found Bowser will lose the Bair trade exchange with Lucario's Max Aura Sphere when Lucario is at 177% or higher. Fsmash will still win however if you hit it with Bowser's legs which have intangibility.

 

[Jerodak]

I know that Bowser's skid animation is good. That's not the issue here though.

The issue is if the skid animation is better than 17 frames. If it isn't, then it's moot.


If it is, then dis gun b guuuud.

Oh alright, well let me know when you have results from the frame tests, I'd like to know exactly how many frames it is. I remember someone who used to hang around here Pre-launch by the name of @ibmutt who estimated that it was around frame 7, I wonder if he was right.

 

[MrEh]

7 frames is around the startup of Bowser's jab.

I'm pretty sure the skid animation is longer than that.

 

[Jerodak]

For the sake of convenience, I'd like to propose calling this either "Skid Cancel" or "Skid-canceled Trots/Trotting" It's not a Bowser specific tech, I'm pretty sure there are other characters that could use it similarly so I don't think a cooler, more Bowser-themed name like "Koopa walking" or whatever would be appropriate, but we could always call it that anyway, at least till other characters start using it.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Tested the entire roster. Running Short Hop Up B will hit everyone reliably except for Diddy Kong, Mr. Game and Watch, Duck Hunt, Pikachu, Greninja, Jigglypuff, Kirby, Meta Knight, Olimar, Pacman.

You can hit Diddy and Pac sometimes but it isn't worth it since you can whiff easily.

Free 20%-30% damage on a confirmed hit though. Percentage doesn't matter and you can't DI out of it. Well you can. But not after taking the bulk of the damage.

That's all I have to share on the Bowser for now. If I find any more neat tricks I'll test them and post results.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Hey guys, I was reading up on the jab facts in the OP, and it's mentioned that jab 1 has +7 "frame advantage". Which is up from -17 in Brawl. It was pretty clear as I kept reading that the hitbox for Jab 1 comes out on Frame 7 in this game, and that was the point of the discussion, but could anybody explain what -17 means and how that is possible? I never played Brawl competitive.

 

[Jerodak]

@ Zapp Branniglenn That's actually talking about frame advantage which is just a term used to measure the difference in time it takes for both characters to recover.

+ 7 just means that after Bowser hit someone with Jab 1, he recovers 7 frames faster than they do.

-17 means he recovered 17 frames slower than the opponent in Brawl.

Keep in mind that this doesn't matter if you're going for jab 2, because jab 1 cancels into it directly, it really only matters if you're planning to only hit with the jab 1, then try any other move that doesn't cancel out of the jab, like a second jab 1, or an ftilt.

The hit box coming out on frame 7, while correct, is actually not a measurement of frame advantage, it's just how many frames it takes for the hitbox to come out. Feel free to post some more if you still have questions, hope this helps!

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

@ J Jerodak That helps immensely.It was just a wild coincidence that the frame advantage and the first active hitbox frame were both seven. Thank you for the explanation. His jab to Bowser Bomb followup really feels excellent to perform.

 

[Zigsta]

Jab to Bomb is the truth.

On a side note, I've been messing around with running through the opponent and turnaround fsmashing them. Poltergust did it a lot in Brawl with Yoshi. It's actually pretty effective as a mixup if your opponent isn't smash happy or you condition them to expect a shield or dash grab.

 

[MrEh]

I'm stealing that.

 

[Hitman JT]

I'm more of a fan of run past > turnaround Bowser Bomb myself, but godspeed

 

[MagiusNecros]

I guess that could also work if they expect the magic Pivot Grab.

 

[Uncle]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLyIfCRqcbo

More and more mortals are becoming witnesses to our dark hand sorcery.

 

[EarthenPillar]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLyIfCRqcbo

More and more mortals are becoming witnesses to our dark hand sorcery.

One thing that sucks about pivot grab I've found is that it extends Bowser's hurtbox connecting it to disjointed hitboxes. Extended grabs such as ZSS, Link and Pacman's may also connect with Bowser unseemingly. I need someone to test this out to confirm it.

Pivot grab has always been the best answer that beatsout a lot of recovery, attacks & grabs options.

 

[Jerodak]

One thing that sucks about pivot grab I've found is that it extends Bowser's hurtbox connecting it to disjointed hitboxes. Extended grabs such as ZSS, Link and Pacman's may also connect with Bowser unseemingly. I need someone to test this out to confirm it.

Pivot grab has always been the best answer that beatsout a lot of recovery, attacks & grabs options.

I think what happens is that the attack you grab gets pulled into Bowser while still being active for some reason, I think that range is a factor as well and how active and big the attack in question is. Sometimes I can grab Yoshi out of his dash attack, for instance, and other times I get hit, the same goes for Sonic spin dash, and other similar attacks.

 

[EarthenPillar]

Bowser has way too long animations for such short active frames.
I also have these complaints.

SideB SDs now and still whiffs occasionally,
Fsmash has such a momentary hitbox, can't securely punish ULTRA hard reads.
Dsmash has sad hitbox coverage & damage compared to Usmash.

For a character that has this huge, huge hurtbox it's sad that it also has such a lack of security and reward for ditching out moves consecutively. Spacing, reading and knowing when to commit are pretty darn demanding on the player. Especially in comparison to most characters.

Perhaps that the competitive edge bowser needs is to have Firebreath's staggering effect range be increased 50% more. >:D

 

[B!squick]

Smash just needs competent developers.

 

[Karsticles]

Smash just needs competent developers.

No fighting game is perfectly balanced. This one is pretty damn good IMO.

 

[S_B]

Smash just needs competent developers.

At the least, they need balance patches that aren't going to solely be based around fixing massive exploits and release some general balance patches once in a while.

Though we ARE still fairly early into the meta...

 

[Karsticles]

At the least, they need balance patches that aren't going to solely be based around fixing massive exploits and release some general balance patches once in a while.

Though we ARE still fairly early into the meta...

Diddy nerfs are coming.

 

[B!squick]

I'm not even talking about balance. The present state of Bowser's Klaw can only be the result of people who have no idea what they're doing. The rest of the game in general is also an indicator of this. Nintendo has this horrible horrible fixation on "random = fun". Tell me, how many times did you play that stupid Smash Tour mode? If it was more than the 3 required to unlock Pac-Land, say so now so I can call the police because you're most likely being tortured by a crazy person.

EDIT: Also LOL at Diddy nerfs.

 

[Jerodak]

While I agree that there are some design choices in Smash 4 which are rather dubious, I don't think that bashing the dev team or Nintendo will do anything about it. Especially if there are Nintendo represenatives and/or Smash dev team members browsing the forums. Which I don't think is a completely far fetched idea considering how aware they've been of the community as of late, and if nothing else it'll just make you more upset at the problem than you already are. On that note, since I'm pretty sure no one here is put-off enough by any of the current issues to actually drop the character or the game, might as well put all that energy into finding solutions.

 

[MrEh]

Bowser's Klaw is also only active for 1 frame. This makes it near impossible to "fall" on an opponent and grab them with the aerial version. While it's perfectly fine for a grab to only be active for 1 frame, it's not ok when the grab is so ridiculously small and slow. There's barely any situation where using Klaw is the optimal play anymore. There's usually always a safer, faster, or flat out better option.

Even in a punish situation, Bowser Bomb has become the go to thing nowadays. Klaw basically has little use in Bowser's kit, which is really disappointing considering how much of a tool it was in the past installments.

While I agree that there are some design choices in Smash 4 which are rather dubious, I don't think that bashing the dev team or Nintendo will do anything about it. Especially if there are Nintendo represenatives and/or Smash dev team members browsing the forums. Which I don't think is a completely far fetched idea considering how aware they've been of the community as of late

That's the wrong way to look at things. If a parts of a game are poorly designed, then people SHOULD complain about it. Game devs cannot fix problems they aren't aware of.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

Well, since this is the Moveset Data & Discussion thread, we could have Jerodak color code the listed moves to designate their degree of usefulness. As an example:

Red: A bad option in most if not all situations and a blatant trap option for players.
Purple: A bad option that can shine in certain situations or as a mix-up, but otherwise shouldn't be used.
Plain White: Solid option. A natural part of the character's tool kit. You can't really go wrong here.
Sky Blue: Great option. In most cases, this is your bread and butter. Defines a character's kit.
Gold: The best option. This is a move that outshines even other character's moves. Can be considered one of the best moves in the game, if not an outright game breaker.
​

We could also see about merging the Rate Our Moveset thread after cleaning it up a bit. Make it all shiny and official. The official opinion of the Bowser boards.

 

[Jerodak]

That's the wrong way to look at things. If a parts of a game are poorly designed, then people SHOULD complain about it. Game devs cannot fix problems they aren't aware of.

That's true, and I don't have an issue at all with constructive criticisms or just making observations on certain problems, that in itself is fine. However, it's very possible to do that without taking every opportunity to slam Nintendo, or the Smash Dev team, which is what doesn't solve anything, and it's certainly not going to inspire action from the people that already put so much work into the game.

 

[MagiusNecros]

I agree with MrEh. Using the Bomb is more prominent then Klaw. I still use Klaw however for those crazy Offstage Klaw chase situations though. I even caught a Greninja! I love doing that. But with the pinpoint range you have to be precise with it or it will miss. Unless your opponent is Donkey Kong.

 

[S_B]

Diddy nerfs are coming.

Don't be toying with me, now...

 

[Jerodak]

Well, since this is the Moveset Data & Discussion thread, we could have Jerodak color code the listed moves to designate their degree of usefulness. As an example:

Red: A bad option in most if not all situations and a blatant trap option for players.
Purple: A bad option that can shine in certain situations or as a mix-up, but otherwise shouldn't be used.
Plain White: Solid option. A natural part of the character's tool kit. You can't really go wrong here.
Sky Blue: Great option. In most cases, this is your bread and butter. Defines a character's kit.
Gold: The best option. This is a move that outshines even other character's moves. Can be considered one of the best moves in the game, if not an outright game breaker.
​

We could also see about merging the Rate Our Moveset thread after cleaning it up a bit. Make it all shiny and official. The official opinion of the Bowser boards.

Sounds good, if we're going to use the rate the moveset thread then it might be good to wait for a few more players to weigh in, unless everyone's spoken their peace.

 

[Karsticles]

What do y'all want from Klaw?

I'm not even talking about balance. The present state of Bowser's Klaw can only be the result of people who have no idea what they're doing. The rest of the game in general is also an indicator of this. Nintendo has this horrible horrible fixation on "random = fun". Tell me, how many times did you play that stupid Smash Tour mode? If it was more than the 3 required to unlock Pac-Land, say so now so I can call the police because you're most likely being tortured by a crazy person.

EDIT: Also LOL at Diddy nerfs.

Treehouse Twitter confirmed Diddy nerfs. Not in 1.0.5, though, it seems.

I have played Smash Tour over 100 times. (While afk)

 

[MagiusNecros]

What do y'all want from Klaw?

Hit Box range of the arm swipe. And of course Bowser advantage(the opponent dies first as they are under Bowser) on the suicide if the opponent has control over our own move.

 

[Jerodak]

What do y'all want from Klaw?

I would like for it to have less endlag and/or start up if it's not going to have range or active frames going for it. I'd also like the deadzone to be removed and for the Bowsercide glitch to get fixed. I'm pretty happy with everything else.

 

[warriorman222]

I want claw to be SD (win in SD) or a win. It's hard to land, and you need to have a far higher %, an impossibility with the heaviest and largest character. You shouldn't lose for landing a hard read. WTF.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

What Jerodak said about the Klaw startup (grounded) is right. Ugly start-up, slower than the start-up for Bowser Bomb, and all for a single active frame. Frame 17 versus frame 11. Not cool.

 

[EarthenPillar]

2 frame startup, 2 active frames, 56 recovery frames,
Hitbox the size of Bowser and extends inwards,
No SD,
No funny business.

 

[MrEh]

Grounded Klaw is 8 frames atm.


The only thing Klaw needs to be good again is RANGE. Again, there's nothing inherently wrong with a single active frame as long as the move is big enough for that to make sense. Klaw is ridiculously tiny. It goes against what a command grab SHOULD be in most games.

 

[B!squick]

I've already stopped playing Smash entirely, though that's more the fact that I have no one to play with. And the single player modes just don't compare to SSE. But as for future Smash games, I'm done. It will take a LOT to bring me back after this.

As for confirmed Diddy nerfs, I'll believe them when I see them. Well, I should say believe them when they get discovered, because Nintendo. But who knows, maybe he'll get his own Koopa-nasia move.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

Grounded Klaw is 8 frames atm.

Hmm, okay. I was looking at Thinkaman's post on the frame data and it said 17-17 grounded, 8-8 aerial on the pastebin. Guess it was switched up on accident or something.

 

[MagiusNecros]

So Bowser's Dash Slash. In the middle of it for a frame or two he flashes green. What does that mean?

 

[Karsticles]

I would like for it to have less endlag and/or start up if it's not going to have range or active frames going for it. I'd also like the deadzone to be removed and for the Bowsercide glitch to get fixed. I'm pretty happy with everything else.

The dead zone is pure idiocy. Who ever heard of a command grab that whiffs up close?