MrEh
Smash Hero
Best secondary is Sheik.
Actually, just drop Bowser and play Sheik.
Actually, just drop Bowser and play Sheik.
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Data Bowser's Moveset Data & Discussion
- Thread starter Jerodak
- Start date
MrEh
Smash Hero
If I want to punish my opponent for blocking, I would rather jab 1--->dash grab.
Oh you're from Okinawa? I used to live there. Heh.
Oh you're from Okinawa? I used to live there. Heh.
MrEh
Smash Hero
It's a frame trap. Works against opponent's mashing attacks 5 frames or slower.
MagiusNecros
Smash Master
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2014
- Messages
- 3,176
Probably reliable on the heavies. Everyone else not so much. If you know they will dodge or roll you probably don't want to use it. Besides Bomb is more for punishing a big mistake on the other player's part or a risky Bowser Bomb ledge trump. Which I did on a Samus the other day. Was glorious.
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Mono.
Stopmotion Love.
- Joined
- Oct 11, 2011
- Messages
- 439
Yeah I'm aware of that. I'm just trying to find setups to a shield break out of that jab 1 frame trap by doing things that force opponents to potentially shield. Is there any say what frame neutral B comes out on?
MrEh
Smash Hero
Probably like 20+ or something.
B!squick
Smash Master
Firebreath hitbox starts on frame 11. At least for Giga Bowser. Don't know why this pastebin of frame data doesn't have vanilla Bowser Firebreath. :/
rekt
Smash Cadet
Uhm. But can I still hang out with you guys? By far the best smashboard group is BowserBros.
Meh I changed my mind. I like my koopaking too much.
Jerodak
Smash Lord
Yeah Bowser bros. solidarity!
MagiusNecros
Smash Master
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2014
- Messages
- 3,176
Giga Bowser probably has a different directory.
rekt
Smash Cadet
So I think this kind of discussion should go here, and if it's already occurred feel free to delete this, but could we discuss specific uses for approaching with aerials? Any of them, really. I'm having particular trouble with Fair and Nair, and I feel like I overuse Dair.
What are your guys' thoughts on it? Are aerials just for follow ups or can they be used effectively for approaching?
Best,
Rekt
What are your guys' thoughts on it? Are aerials just for follow ups or can they be used effectively for approaching?
Best,
Rekt
Jerodak
Smash Lord
Yes, they can, but mainly Fair, I wouldn't recommend approaching with Bair ever unless you know for sure you'll be able to hit it, You can space Bair against shields and fade out with it then fast fall it with the right timing and that plus the shield push might make it somewhat safe but it's generally better to use Fair in the same fashion because you have more options to cover the opponent's options afterwards. You don't really want to poke at shields too often though, but you can avoid punishment if you're spacing properly and using the fast fall autocancel. Cross-up aerials can help you avoid punishment too and again it's probably best to use Fair here but it's best done on short characters who are using run-up shield because you're using the momentum from their shield slide with the shield push from the aerial and your forward momentum to stay pretty safe.
Aerials are also useful for controlling space, Fair in particular is pretty good against rolls, and even spot dodging to some degree, if you utilize the fast-cancel which is just done by fast falling the aerial so that you land during the earliest possible auto-cancel frames, the same can be done with back air as well. Forward air is decently active so it can meaty the player out of a roll towards you and if you miss then fast-canceling the forward air should keep you relatively safe. The key when using a fast-cancel is to not panic and fast fall too early, because you'll crash into the ground with full lag. Fast cancel works on hit too, but you have to fast fall a bit later than normal to compensate for hit lag; you can read more on fast-fall autocancels in the O.P.
And finally, laggless Fair from the ledge can bait unwary opponents into punishing you while you're still safe if they aren't prepared, and it can be used for whiff punishing if they are too eager with a smash attack or aerial that isn't hitting you. You have to be quick though, or else they might have recovered and thrown something else by the time you let go.
Pretty sure he does, he should have his own character files and everything.
rekt
Smash Cadet
How2FastCancel? Never heard of it before...
Jerodak
Smash Lord
Rising Short hop Fair or Bair -> wait a moment -> fast fall. If you get the aerial landing lag you pressed down too fast.
rekt
Smash Cadet
Thanks! More to practice! :o
Also, fastcanceled arial > LLCancel'ed Special?
Also #2, I seem to be getting regular landing lag without fast falling. What do?
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Zigsta
Disney Film Director
Secondaries are weak. All Bowser, all day.
All my supposed "secondaries" are patheticly weak compared to my Bowser. So yeah, only Bowser.
B!squick
Smash Master
Bowser's biggest problem in Brawl was chain grabs, so having something to counter D3s and ICs was generally a good idea. In this game it's more about the juggles, frame traps and that damn monkey, none of which can really be solved with a counter pick character. Additionally, Bowser actually benefits from more damage like a pseudo Lucario and Tough Guy makes it somewhat bearable at low percents for Bowser. If Klaw actually had anything resembling range to it, Bowser might actually have been high tier. When watching MrEh I keep thinking, man that guy would have been so dead if that was Brawl Klaw.
rekt
Smash Cadet
The truths are too stronk.
MrEh
Smash Hero
It's one of those things where we need to adapt or die basically. A lot of Bowser's core gameplan remains the same, but huge nerfs to certain things (reversal Fortress, jabs, air Klaw) require us to play differently. Without customs, Bowser is doomed to play like a crappier version of his Brawl incarnation, and that's saying something.
With customs, we're open to a little more experimentation.
rekt
Smash Cadet
How do most competitive's treat custom movesets? Is it allowed?
B!squick
Smash Master
DM said in one of the Hawaii videos that almost no one is using them right now because the big one, Apex, isn't having them.
Zigsta
Disney Film Director
I seriously think Bowsers need to take their Brawl Klaw mentality and apply it to Bowser Bomb instead. It's similar in that you force the opponent to shield by the edge of the stage but you Bomb instead of Klaw. I've been getting shield break KOs more and more consistently in tournament--even got 2 of them in GFs of the last tournament I played in.
People just roll away after shielding the first hit of Bowser Bomb. Wat do?
MagiusNecros
Smash Master
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2014
- Messages
- 3,176
You've conditioned your puny opponent to roll away from you. So make them think that you will go for a Bomb and simply fortress their lame roll. And condition them to shield again. And then you bomb them.
Zigsta
Disney Film Director
If you get your opponent near the ledge, rolling back won't help.
Uncle
Novus Ordo Seclorum
I get it. Klaw isn't as good, jab doesn't reach as far, he still has some bad matchups..............but compare those things to the positives!
Planking is gone*, infinite chaingrabs are gone*, Bowser is a shield breaking god, jab 1 has juicy frame advantage, Fortress is a better recovery move, Upsmash shellguard is awesome, Dair is finally worth a damn, and I could go on.
He doesn't even need custom moves to be better than his Brawl self.
*I know that these changes don't just affect Bowser, but they help him out more than most characters, since he was a notable victim of planking and infinites.
Planking is gone*, infinite chaingrabs are gone*, Bowser is a shield breaking god, jab 1 has juicy frame advantage, Fortress is a better recovery move, Upsmash shellguard is awesome, Dair is finally worth a damn, and I could go on.
He doesn't even need custom moves to be better than his Brawl self.
*I know that these changes don't just affect Bowser, but they help him out more than most characters, since he was a notable victim of planking and infinites.
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Jerodak
Smash Lord
???
That's just a regular auto cancel, the reason you'd want to learn the fast fall timing is because it allows you to shave off the extra frames that you'd be spending in the air after you could have canceled the aerial sooner. It's mainly for when you miss or are just using the aerial for controlling space as you get access to your defensive options a little sooner. On hit it helps you apply your pressure faster, so you have a little bit more time to work with when going for the follow-up.
Hey, long time no see. Also, excellent observation, I also agree with what Uncle is saying. We aren't going to get very far by focusing on all of the negatives, and it's not like we aren't going to continue maining him anyway, lol.
MrEh
Smash Hero
Nearly every character in the game also got true combos.
Bowser didn't get any without customs. That's ridiculous.
Jerodak
Smash Lord
Bowser can combo off Fair into Ftilt or jab at certain percents when you use the fast fall, you can also use Fair and jab2 for tech chase set-ups. It also seems like Up throw to Fair works pretty well as a low percent string. I feel like these are reasonable enough for Bowser, especially if you get to keep the +7 advantage on the jab after a Fair, that would give Fair the ability to lead into some pretty significant damage at the right percents. Also, Fair can set-up tech chase situations by itself, though I might need to retest that because of the changes made to vectoring so i'll get back to you on that one.
Edit: Yeah nevermind that last part, I guess.
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Uncle
Novus Ordo Seclorum
As true as that is, Bowser was kinda designed to do fine without them. His sheer weight and damage/knockback per hit is crazy good. He doesn't need tons of combos, because he kills early and breaks shields like a boss.
Hey! I remember you. You were at that one NCSU local in Feb 2013, which just so happened to be the last Smash tourney I played in. You entered the scene at almost the exact same time I was leaving it, lol. How have you been?
B!squick
Smash Master
Is that list for Tough Guy complete?
MagiusNecros
Smash Master
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2014
- Messages
- 3,176
I think it has everything except data on everyone's customs. So nothing in neutral that isn't there already is what we have. Supposedly.
B!squick
Smash Master
So for the characters not listed it doesn't work on anything?
Hey Stalker-fry, is it possible you could make anything Bowser related consistent?
Hey Stalker-fry, is it possible you could make anything Bowser related consistent?
Jerodak
Smash Lord
Yes, I did the testing on 3ds, I will retest on WiiU to be completely sure. If anyone is willing to test customs then feel free to post your findings and I'll update the list. Outside of that, the list should be exhaustive more or less. If it turns out I missed something I'll look into it and make an update. Hope it helps!
B!squick
Smash Master
Thank you so much for the data gathering and whatnot. Shame that, from what I can gather, Tough Guy is mostly useless, yes?
Jerodak
Smash Lord
No problem and sorta, but it's kinda cool, you can use it in very very specific situations to get free damage, so it can be put to use even in the very very niche situations that it's useful in. Like Being able to shrug off fox and kirby's second jabs actually nets me some free damage somewhat often, and even against Toon link, if you see them notching an arrow and it's half draw or less then you can run though it, take 6%, and get your 18+% punish in return. Against Peach Dair, you can just up smash or up tilt it when you're low enough, and peach does love to use Dair so the opportunity for that might show up every now and then, I'm actually curious if crouching expands our options at all, the game even mentions that crouching prevents you from flying as far, so who knows?
In the meantime it'd be a good idea to just keep it in mind so you aren't caught by surprise when it happens. It could mean the difference between thinking "Oh yeah, that's a thing!" or "Here's my punish!"
Edit: @
MrEh
If you have the time to test this during your frame data testing, I have a proposal to make. We all know that walk-up shielding got heavily nerfed thanks to the start-up to the walking animation. So, I'm wondering, does the time it take to crouch shorter than the start-up of the walk and could we viably use crawl-up shield as a replacement? Crawling offers roughly the same benefits as walking and is about the same speed, at least when walking forwards and both the crouching and standing animations appear to be made up completely of IASA frames, so it's not like we lost access to any neutral options, it does make up tilt and down smash a bit harder to execute though, and you'd need to be sure to return to neutral when going for firebreath, and it doesn't hurt that Bowser is a bit shorter during the crouching animation either, I suppose moving away without changing directions is also useful. Has anyone been using Crawl much in general? How good is it compared to Brawl?
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