Data Bowser's Moveset Data & Discussion

[shoff]

Not sure if this had been said already but if you block Rosalina's jab finisher you get guaranteed fsmash.

I did not know this... thanks!

 

[FEFIZ]

Guys, why sometimes, when I use the Bowser suicid move, the move stay on the middle? I try to go rigth (or left) and Bowser stay In the same position. Why sometimes Bowser "respect" my move Control and sometimes he just make the move without "listen" me?

 

[Rakurai]

Whichever character has the lower damage percentage controls the direction the move goes.

 

[FEFIZ]

I was thinking about the %. So I was right a little. So my opponent can control my move in the air lol. Thank you man.

 

[Turokman5896]

So I've been a Mario main for years and now I want to mix it up. I've enjoyed bowser in the past quite a bit, but am just a now considering maining him (along with doc). Any beginner tips or guides you guys know of?

 

[Jerodak]

So I've been a Mario main for years and now I want to mix it up. I've enjoyed bowser in the past quite a bit, but am just a now considering maining him (along with doc). Any beginner tips or guides you guys know of?

Well the first thing that you'll need to know is that it's very important to be patient, Bowser is a large target, and while his mobility isn't too bad, he has a good number of frames on what he does and it's important to save your frames as much as possible to avoid punishment. He also does not have as many approach options as Mario does with his projectile and aerials, and he also lacks the reflector so camping and getting lamed out with be a bigger issue.

Powershielding and klanking will be your friends, you'll find dealing with campers to be a bit easier when you've gotten used to klanking projectiles with attacks like jab, ftilt, and fair. Powershielding is also important because you'll gain shield back faster as you do it, and it makes you harder to shield poke in the long run, Bowser's shield is generally the best in the game, thanks to it's sheer size and his good defensive options.

Make use of Bowser's good defensive tools, his tilts, firebreath, and the fortress give Bowser some really strong defensive options in various situations. The fortress is a very strong OOS option that can punish pretty much anything that's poorly spaced on your shield. Just be careful about moves with high shield stun because doing the the inputs too quickly will make you jump, you'll want to delay a bit so that your inputs will buffer properly, just make sure you don't miss the punish. Also, Bowser's up smash works pretty well as a defensive option thanks to the shellguard property it has while the hitbox is active but that's going to require a good read, it's better to use it as an anti-air.

When moving with Bowser, make use of his run stop, when turning around mid-run, try to avoid just moving the stick in the other direction. Instead, you'll want to return the stick to neutral, then to the other direction, this is a lot faster and can even be used like a Melee dash dance to mix up movement and bait out mistakes. Just be careful not to accidentally stop during the initial dash frames, because that stop animation is pretty bad and can mess you up if you aren't careful.

If you're not killing early, then don't get flustered. Just because you can kill early, doesn't mean you should. Sometimes your opponent just won't give you the opening for big moves like Fsmash, so if you see they are at around 130% then just look for the Side-B. You can pretty much get it in any situation that you'd be able to use dash attack or dash grab, and it will K.O very reliably from around 100-140 depending on the character. Also, if you miss, you won't be punished much harder than if you had missed a dash attack or grab, but you still don't want to just whiff it for no reason. If you're on battlefield, you can even land on the top platform to K.O sooner.

On that note, be aware of all the situations where you can land your bigger punishes, maybe there's an opportunity to Dsmash instead of fortress, or you might be able to Upsmash OOS in a particular situaiton. Some attacks can even be Fsmashed on reaction if you block them. You can also try whiff punishing with pivot tilt and pivot smash against things you'd rather not block, such as command grabs.

Try not to become over reliant on shielding, it'll make you too easy to punish with grabs and shield breakers, Bowser's spotdodge and rolls are actually pretty functional in this game so you can mix those in when you feel they are appropriate and punish the opponent accordingly.

Bowser's edgeguarding is pretty good, most of his tools can be useful for edgeguarding, Dtilt is great for turning an edgeguard into a K.O, especially when the opponent regrabs the ledge or hangs there for too long, you can also hit them out of ledge hopped attacks and most ledge tech options with good timing and anticipation. Dsmash will beat every ledge tech option when spaced properly, it also hits them if they are just idling on the ledge and can even win against certain ledge hop techs but it's by no means an unbeatable edgeguard. Dair can spike without costing you your stock if you know how to use it. Ftilt, especially down angled Ftilt, is good for ledge coverage and can be useful for taking away second jumps. Fair can take away second jumps and has a large hitbox that's can be hard to avoid. Back air will probably turn an edgeguard into a K.O. Up air is a good mix-up to catch anyone trying to jump over your other aerials and can K.O pretty well. Usmash is a little situational, but it can deal with aggressive recoveries like Villager' rocket and Lucario trying to Up-b Into you, it'll also beat any ledge tech option if you space it right, but unlike Dsmash it won't hit them if they just hang out on the ledge and wait. Firebreath is pretty big, making it hard to avoid, and it even has a damaging windbox along it's later half, making it useful for messing with the opponent's spacing while they recover, or for tacking on some free damage while they try to make it back to the stage. With the addition of ledge trumping, Bowser bomb is now a very powerful edge guarding tool that can set up ledge trump back airs or just hit them if they decide to use a ledge attack or ledge hop option.

When using firebreath, remember that the tip does not deal hitstun, so you'll need to be careful of players jumping out of it and punishing you or using reflectors or absorbers from this range. Use it, but don't get too greedy, if you see that they like to try getting absorbs or reflectors though, you can try ending the firebreath just as they would get into this range, then punish the anti-projectile option; you may be surprised how often you could get a free side-b this way.

Outside of that, I can't really think of anything to tell you that you wouldn't have already learned, but if you have any questions then feel free to ask here or on the Q&A thread; hope this helped!

 

[Turokman5896]

Well the first thing that you'll need to know is that it's very important to be patient, Bowser is a large target, and while his mobility isn't too bad, he has a good number of frames on what he does and it's important to save your frames as much as possible to avoid punishment. He also does not have as many approach options as Mario does with his projectile and aerials, and he also lacks the reflector so camping and getting lamed out with be a bigger issue.

Powershielding and klanking will be your friends, you'll find dealing with campers to be a bit easier when you've gotten used to klanking projectiles with attacks like jab, ftilt, and fair. Powershielding is also important because you'll gain shield back faster as you do it, and it makes you harder to shield poke in the long run, Bowser's shield is generally the best in the game, thanks to it's sheer size and his good defensive options.

Make use of Bowser's good defensive tools, his tilts, firebreath, and the fortress give Bowser some really strong defensive options in various situations. The fortress is a very strong OOS option that can punish pretty much anything that's poorly spaced on your shield. Just be careful about moves with high shield stun because doing the the inputs too quickly will make you jump, you'll want to delay a bit so that your inputs will buffer properly, just make sure you don't miss the punish. Also, Bowser's up smash works pretty well as a defensive option thanks to the shellguard property it has while the hitbox is active but that's going to require a good read, it's better to use it as an anti-air.

When moving with Bowser, make use of his run stop, when turning around mid-run, try to avoid just moving the stick in the other direction. Instead, you'll want to return the stick to neutral, then to the other direction, this is a lot faster and can even be used like a Melee dash dance to mix up movement and bait out mistakes. Just be careful not to accidentally stop during the initial dash frames, because that stop animation is pretty bad and can mess you up if you aren't careful.

If you're not killing early, then don't get flustered. Just because you can kill early, doesn't mean you should. Sometimes your opponent just won't give you the opening for big moves like Fsmash, so if you see they are at around 130% then just look for the Side-B. You can pretty much get it in any situation that you'd be able to use dash attack or dash grab, and it will K.O very reliably from around 100-140 depending on the character. Also, if you miss, you won't be punished much harder than if you had missed a dash attack or grab, but you still don't want to just whiff it for no reason. If you're on battlefield, you can even land on the top platform to K.O sooner.

On that note, be aware of all the situations where you can land your bigger punishes, maybe there's an opportunity to Dsmash instead of fortress, or you might be able to Upsmash OOS in a particular situaiton. Some attacks can even be Fsmashed on reaction if you block them. You can also try whiff punishing with pivot tilt and pivot smash against things you'd rather not block, such as command grabs.

Try not to become over reliant on shielding, it'll make you too easy to punish with grabs and shield breakers, Bowser's spotdodge and rolls are actually pretty functional in this game so you can mix those in when you feel they are appropriate and punish the opponent accordingly.

Bowser's edgeguarding is pretty good, most of his tools can be useful for edgeguarding, Dtilt is great for turning an edgeguard into a K.O, especially when the opponent regrabs the ledge or hangs there for too long, you can also hit them out of ledge hopped attacks and most ledge tech options with good timing and anticipation. Dsmash will beat every ledge tech option when spaced properly, it also hits them if they are just idling on the ledge and can even win against certain ledge hop techs but it's by no means an unbeatable edgeguard. Dair can spike without costing you your stock if you know how to use it. Ftilt, especially down angled Ftilt, is good for ledge coverage and can be useful for taking away second jumps. Fair can take away second jumps and has a large hitbox that's can be hard to avoid. Back air will probably turn an edgeguard into a K.O. Up air is a good mix-up to catch anyone trying to jump over your other aerials and can K.O pretty well. Usmash is a little situational, but it can deal with aggressive recoveries like Villager' rocket and Lucario trying to Up-b Into you, it'll also beat any ledge tech option if you space it right, but unlike Dsmash it won't hit them if they just hang out on the ledge and wait. Firebreath is pretty big, making it hard to avoid, and it even has a damaging windbox along it's later half, making it useful for messing with the opponent's spacing while they recover, or for tacking on some free damage while they try to make it back to the stage. With the addition of ledge trumping, Bowser bomb is now a very powerful edge guarding tool that can set up ledge trump back airs or just hit them if they decide to use a ledge attack or ledge hop option.

When using firebreath, remember that the tip does not deal hitstun, so you'll need to be careful of players jumping out of it and punishing you or using reflectors or absorbers from this range. Use it, but don't get too greedy, if you see that they like to try getting absorbs or reflectors though, you can try ending the firebreath just as they would get into this range, then punish the anti-projectile option; you may be surprised how often you could get a free side-b this way.

Outside of that, I can't really think of anything to tell you that you wouldn't have already learned, but if you have any questions then feel free to ask here or on the Q&A thread; hope this helped!

Wow! Thank you so much! I was not expecting such a fantastic reply!

Now I'm off to training; I have a lot of habits I picked up from Mario I need to drop!

 

[Jerodak]

Wow! Thank you so much! I was not expecting such a fantastic reply!

Now I'm off to training; I have a lot of habits I picked up from Mario I need to drop!

Hey man no problem! Let us know you you need help with anything else.

 

[B!squick]

Is DAir our best counter for upwards momentum? I mean, I'm sure there's a point where the rising start-up will kill us, but what about the rest of the time?

 

[Jerodak]

Is DAir our best counter for upwards momentum? I mean, I'm sure there's a point where the rising start-up will kill us, but what about the rest of the time?

I've noticed that in those situations it seems like the rise doesn't even come out, you just stall in the air or descend slowly. It's actually gotten me hit a few times when trying to use the lift to punish follow-ups, but sometimes they also mis-space and just run into the spike. The slow fall is also useful because you can DI further on the way down, and it still launches so you can catch people by surprise with it.

Of course, don't forget about downwards vectoring, though I wouldn't recommend just straight down, instead down left or right. Otherwise you'll make the follow-ups too easy, If you won't K.O anyway, then DI upwards and just wait for your equilibrium to return to normal, then you can fast fall, just remember that aerials and specials cancel fast falling now so if you wanna fastfall with an aerial then you have to do the aerial first. I guess from really high up, canceling fast falls like this could be used as a mix-up, but I don't see it being incredibly useful for Bowser overall since his cooldown is pretty high overall in the air.

I think what Dair, and Bowser bomb might be useful for, is conditioning an opponent to roll or run away when you position over them, then you can just recoil or wavebounce fire to keep them in front of you or just DI the other way and fast fall into shield, run, or spot dodge depending on what they like to do.

Also, anyone else notice the weird priority on Dair? It seems to win against things that the bomb doesn't, but bomb wins against things that it loses to. There are attacks that win against both though, so it's not like an unbeatable mix-up or anything, but it seems like it's worth looking into so we know what to use to beat which attacks on the way down.

For instance, the bomb seems to be able to go through the villager's tree sprouting hitboxes pretty well, but loses to upsmash. However, I've Dair'd through a villager's upsmash before. Pretty sure I've even Dair'd through ZSS's upsmash once. Both work against PK tunder, unless they move it so you run into the tail instead, I've also bombed through a charged aura sphere while using it to catch the ledge. It seems to me, that the new bomb seems to not care about projectiles for the most part, cause I have been hit out of it by Samus charge shot once, but i'm not sure if that was the shot just winning, or because it hit me more on the side instead of the bottom.

 

[Action Kazimer]

Bomb has felt pretty random to me fighting my buddy's Mega Man. I've no doubt that there's a science to it, but sometimes I can successfully bomb through his Uair tornado, and other times it just sweeps me right up.

 

[B!squick]

Bomb has felt pretty random to me fighting my buddy's Mega Man. I've no doubt that there's a science to it, but sometimes I can successfully bomb through his Uair tornado, and other times it just sweeps me right up.

Is it hitting you on the way down or during the start-up? That might be the difference. I really wish my roommate had gotten this game so I could actually test things. :S

 

[EarthenPillar]

I may have missed something. Does anyone know how to cancel Fair as it hits the ground? I've seen it in japanese matches. I can't find the timing for it.

Edited:
Urgh, Forget I asked this. I realize it's cancellable as long as its executed early from a short hop.

 

[Jerodak]

I may have missed something. Does anyone know how to cancel Fair as it hits the ground? I've seen it in japanese matches. I can't find the timing for it.

Edited:
Urgh, Forget I asked this. I realize it's cancellable as long as its executed early from a short hop.

No problem, don't forget it's the same with Back air and you can fast fall them both with the right timing and still auto-cancel to shave off a few extra frames.

 

[Action Kazimer]

Is it hitting you on the way down or during the start-up? That might be the difference. I really wish my roommate had gotten this game so I could actually test things. :S

Yeah, not sure. It's felt like I've gotten both results at the same time throughout all the matches we've played, but I wouldn't trust my memory at this point. I'll have to scout for some replays with him going forward.

 

[Jerodak]

So yeah the edge-canceled dizzy state I mentioned before? It actually just happened again, but this time the other player mistakenly pushed me into the ledge for some reason. It probably won't come up in any matches or anything but I guess just be careful if you get a shield break near the ledge, though I don't see why anyone would ever need to walk into their opponents when Fsmash has so much reach on it, but I guess it's just good to know?

 

[Raiden mk-II]

In a high-level match against a Fox player, I learned that doing a grounded Bowser Bomb against a shielding opponent will guarantee a shield break, if both hits land. The first horn hit that is supposed to knock the opponent into the air will eat part of the shield while the actual Bomb hit will shatter what remains of the shield. It will not always be successful since opponents can roll away as the Bomb drops, but it's good to catch people off-guard with.

 

[MrEh]

IIRC, all 3 hits of the Bowser Bomb need to connect in order to break a full shield. The horns, the bomb itself, and the shockwave that happens when Bowser hits the ground. There are times where you can hit with the horns and bomb and your opponent's shield still doesn't break because you don't hit them cleanly.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

IIRC, all 3 hits of the Bowser Bomb need to connect in order to break a full shield. The horns, the bomb itself, and the shockwave that happens when Bowser hits the ground. There are times where you can hit with the horns and bomb and your opponent's shield still doesn't break because you don't hit them cleanly.

I've been able to break shields with sweetspot aerial bomb so long as both his butt and shockwave hit, though they have to hold their shield for a fraction of a second before the bomb comes down.

 

[Jinchuuriki88]

Hi guys! New here. I made my account in the early Brawl days but never used it since. Until now lol ^_^

Anyway. Id like to talk about a possible glitch I discovered as Bowser on Smash for 3DS (not sure if other characters have it, didnt try. I only found out about it yesterday). Um. Anyway before I go into details, I just would like a confirmation if its discovered before, so that it saves me time and yours lol

Anyway about the glitch. Its about canceling Bowser's up B landing lag when he lands on the ground with any move.

Have this been talked about before?

 

[Jerodak]

I've been able to break shields with sweetspot aerial bomb so long as both his butt and shockwave hit, though they have to hold their shield for a fraction of a second before the bomb comes down.

Yeah, I've also had situations like this, it also works if you know their shield isn't full because they've been shield camping a lot or because you've been hitting it, Bowser seems to have a few attacks with good shield damage now. Nothing that'll bust a shield on it's own probably but they could help to set up a shield break. My favorite way to break a shield is near the ledge so that the bomb sends them off the side. Since this will kill at any percent, it's always worth going for if you know they like to shield after getting up from the ledge.

Also, I did some experimenting with dizzy state against level 9 CPUs because they are gods of mashing and it turns out that we get roughly 8 steps of walking animation while still getting the fully charged Fsmash. So if your opponent is at around 0-40% then use those 8 steps to walk them over to the nearest edge of the stage then charge your Fsmash. You can walk at full speed since Bowser is large and his walk is slow so you won't move fast enough to pass through the victim. Even if you won't kill the opponent with the Fsmash, you still get them offstage for free, It's a good way to optimize your punish for a dizzy. Just watch out for the edge since I've had my dizzy state edge cancel a few times in for glory, but I think that can only happen during certain frames, I still don't fully understand how or why it happens yet.

 

[Jinchuuriki88]

I made a video about the glitch. Sorry for the potato quality, I lack the good recording equipment .

Also note that in every footage, it was a normal game, not custom mode.

http://m.youtube.com/?#/watch?v=ZeGKhFgCTrw

 

[Jerodak]

I made a video about the glitch. Sorry for the potato quality, I lack the good recording equipment .

Also note that in every footage, it was a normal game, not custom mode.

http://m.youtube.com/?#/watch?v=ZeGKhFgCTrw

So when I clicked on your link it takes me to a page that shows a bunch of stuff I've either watched already or that youtube recommends that I watch and when I take the "watch?v=ZeGKhFgCTrw" and put it at the end of the youtube address it tells me that the video is private.

 

[Jinchuuriki88]

So when I clicked on your link it takes me to a page that shows a bunch of stuff I've either watched already or that youtube recommends that I watch and when I take the "watch?v=ZeGKhFgCTrw" and put it at the end of the youtube address it tells me that the video is private.

I fixed the problem (I hope). The video was listed private, stupid dumb me >.<

https://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=ZeGKhFgCTrw

 

[Road Death Wheel]

im not sure you guys talk about customs but bowser's custom side be dash slash is infinitly better than standard

 

[Jerodak]

I fixed the problem (I hope). The video was listed private, stupid dumb me >.<

https://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=ZeGKhFgCTrw

Ok, this looks really interesting, if you'd like to go into detail on exactly how it works then that would be most appreciated, and I'll probably add it into the OP along with credit to you.

 

[Jinchuuriki88]

Ok, this looks really interesting, if you'd like to go into detail on exactly how it works then that would be most appreciated, and I'll probably add it into the OP along with credit to you.

I already made a thread here going into details on how it works. Feel free to drop!

 

[HeavyLobster]

im not sure you guys talk about customs but bowser's custom side be dash slash is infinitly better than standard

I like Dash Slash as a tool to help get in on projectile users and punish landings. Dash Slam is also really good and better in some matchups because of its command grab aspects. The default isn't bad, but I feel that both alternatives are better, and the choice between the two seems matchup-dependent. I prefer all of Bowser's other defaults, though.

 

[Flayl]

I like Fire Roar, it gives you a huge ranged burst & does way more damage.

With how sporadically I use firebreath it's really the best option for me overall.

 

[Zigsta]

Don't think this has been said yet--

A lot of us Brawl Bowsers miss the old fsmash because of its reel back prior to the attack. It was an amazing way of both dodging incoming attacks and counterattacking.

Well the more I play 3DS the more I'm thinking the new ffsmash could be used similarly against aerials that would otherwise hit Bowser. Super helpful against Charizard's bair, for example.

Food for thought.

 

[Jerodak]

Don't think this has been said yet--

A lot of us Brawl Bowsers miss the old fsmash because of its reel back prior to the attack. It was an amazing way of both dodging incoming attacks and counterattacking.

Well the more I play 3DS the more I'm thinking the new ffsmash could be used similarly against aerials that would otherwise hit Bowser. Super helpful against Charizard's bair, for example.

Food for thought.

There's also foxtrot or run away to pivot fsmash, it pretty much does the same thing, we can also fox trot and run forward to fsmash to basically extend the range if someone whiffs something punishable further away; It's more effective than it sounds.

 

[Karsticles]

Holy wow on that recovery video. Yay!

I just wish we had armor on something. And I wish dsmash and Nair weren't borderline useless.

Edit: okay, I only got the Fortress cancel to work once. What is the trick?

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

Holy wow on that recovery video. Yay!

I just wish we had armor on something. And I wish dsmash and Nair weren't borderline useless.

Edit: okay, I only got the Fortress cancel to work once. What is the trick?

Dsmash is okay because the only other way Bowser can hit someone kissing him with a cross-up is with the up b fortress. Dsmash does a bit more damage and knockback in return for the hard read, as well as a larger horizontal disjoint just in case. Nair tacks on a surprising amount of damage. I can't say no to an aerial that deals 15-20% damage every time I use it, even if it doesn't have any kill power. It also crushes Master/Crazy Hand + the Swarm like nothing. For when you need to unlock the 9.0 intensity achievement with ease.

 

[EarthenPillar]

Holy wow on that recovery video. Yay!

I just wish we had armor on something. And I wish dsmash and Nair weren't borderline useless.

Edit: okay, I only got the Fortress cancel to work once. What is the trick?

Nair also stuffs certain mixups like sonic's HA/Bair after blocking his spindash combo launchers. Also characters that linger in the air suffer from it, jigglypuff/ike's up-B.

Dsmash is basically your Whirling Fortress with knockback, both used to punish people who try to roll into you.

 

[MrEh]

Well the more I play 3DS the more I'm thinking the new ffsmash could be used similarly against aerials that would otherwise hit Bowser. Super helpful against Charizard's bair, for example.

Worth looking into for sure when the console version drops.

There's also foxtrot or run away to pivot fsmash, it pretty much does the same thing, we can also fox trot and run forward to fsmash to basically extend the range if someone whiffs something punishable further away; It's more effective than it sounds.

That is not the same thing. That's nearly a second slower than just flat out using old fsmash to punish.

im not sure you guys talk about customs but bowser's custom side be dash slash is infinitly better than standard

We love custom talk, but that's pretty subjective. All of Bowser's Klaws are pretty usable.

 

[Hitman JT]

Can we take a minute to talk about how f***ing massive Bowser's pivot grab range is? Like oh my goodness
oh my dayum
It's like Snake's up-tilt made into a grab
Was it this big in Brawl? Bow Wow was one of my secondaries but I didn't utilize pivot grabbing with him that much until now

 

[Jerodak]

That is not the same thing. That's nearly a second slower than just flat out using old fsmash to punish.

You're right, it's not exactly the same thing, but that's not what I meant. I meant that it can be used similarly to the windback from the headbutt.

On the bright side, at least Ftilt still has it's windback animation.

 

[MrEh]

Can we take a minute to talk about how f***ing massive Bowser's pivot grab range is? Like oh my goodness
oh my dayum
It's like Snake's up-tilt made into a grab
Was it this big in Brawl? Bow Wow was one of my secondaries but I didn't utilize pivot grabbing with him that much until now

It was nowhere as big in Brawl. IN this game it's massive. Like some kind of voodoo magic.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

It was nowhere as big in Brawl. IN this game it's massive. Like some kind of voodoo magic.

It comes out faster than Yoshi's tongue, too, so I've actually grabbed Yoshi through his own grab and neutral b with a perfectly spaced pivot grab. I don't think it's practical to do this, but man, what a legendary pivot grab.

 

[MrEh]

It comes out faster than Yoshi's tongue, too

So does every non-tether grab though. :/