Data Bowser's Moveset Data & Discussion

[Wronskian-Physics]

Can I make a small comment about how funny Bowser's down B is? It probably won't work on more experienced players but the instant shield break on his down B can give some really funny reactions with newer players. I'm wondering if someone can roll away after the first hit or if they are locked in once the first hit connects with their shield.

 

[Zigsta]

In Brawl the first hit was easy to SDI out of, but I have yet to see anyone get out of the first hit in the new game due to the changes to SDI.

 

[Jerodak]

- Grounded regular Klaw cannot grab people in the air.

Actually it can, I tested this by going to battlefield, standing on a platform and setting the Cpu to jump. Unlike Brawl claw, it does grab airborne opponents which is fine because it also seems to be a bit slower than Brawl's version and have less vertical range as you mentioned. Grabs no longer have armor either so it's no longer possible to trade klaw with attacks and still get your grab, this is especially bad for command grabs since unlike normal throws, there are no I-frames to deal with outside factors like projectiles, and Luma. I also really enjoy how the new Klaw is very reliable as a relatively safe and easy to land K.O option at around 130%.

Also, sorry for not updating the thread so far, I've been kinda busy with a few things and was also waiting for a good bit more of information to stream in, but now that we are on page three I'll go ahead and start compiling an update.

 

[Xadrin]

In Brawl the first hit was easy to SDI out of, but I have yet to see anyone get out of the first hit in the new game due to the changes to SDI.

I've actually had people escape from the second hit of my Bowser Bomb multiple times, but it seems like it's only possible if you use Bowser Bomb on them far enough away so that the first hit barely reaches (or "in" the opponent so that the first hit barely doesn't reach too far past the opponent? or both?).

 

[-Kagato-]

Glad to know people are finding the Dashing Slam to be useful. I actually came here to make a post about it, but I see that's no longer necessary. Still, allow me to re-confirm just how fantastic it is and if custom moves are legal, I highly encourage you Bowsers to consider giving it a try. Sure, it's not as strong in damage or knockback, but actually landing it is easier and it goes so far to the left or right that you can flying slam suicide nearly anywhere on-stage if you have full movement priority.

And on the other side of the spectrum, I simply cannot find any useful situation for Fireball Breath. Most characters seem ro be able to get around it rather quickly and since Bowser loses all mobility when using it, he's basically a sitting duck. The angle can be adjusted, but for some reason the amount you can change the angle is significantly lower than regular fire breath. We're talking a 5-10% change only, so aiming it to pressure people off-stage is out of the question. Also it does only 5% damage upon impact where as normal fire breath does a lot more at a slightly reduced distance and can be angled much better. So unless someone finds a practical use for the Fire Balls, I think neutral Fire Breath is ideal.

For the different Fortress customs, I stand by the original, though as someone previously said, if you're skilled enough you can survive a Flying Slam suicide by jumping out of it and recovering with Flying Fortress. However I'd prefer the utility of the original fortress.

As for the Bombs, I don't have an opinion on them yet as I have yet to unlock either Bomb. Quake Bomb interests me, but I need to see how it's kill power and shield-break power is compared to the original.

Really, go with whatever you prefer for customs... but Dashing Slam really needs to be used in order to be believed. If customs are banned, then at least the original version is still waiting for us.

Oh, and don't touch Koopa Klaw. It's insulting.

-Final Boss, Out.

 

[MrEh]

Actually it can, I tested this by going to battlefield, standing on a platform and setting the Cpu to jump.

NOTED.

I do think that we should at least try out the custom specials. Especially since with Bowser, the optimal choices aren't very clear cut.

 

[A2ZOMG]

In Brawl the first hit was easy to SDI out of, but I have yet to see anyone get out of the first hit in the new game due to the changes to SDI.

Wut, who SDI's first hit of Bowser Down-B?

More like regular DI and airdodging reflexively got you out of it. Which I'd assume doesn't work in this game?

 

[Karsticles]

15 Tips for playing Bowser:

1) Flamethrower. Use it for spacing and approach.
2) Suicide with the claw if you are up on the last stock. You earned it!
3) Most projectiles can be destroyed by punching them. Duck Hunt Dog is much more manageable when you know this.
4) Block, then Fortress. All the time.
5) Dont use f.smash unless you know it will hit. Basically, to punish a dash whiff or a broken shield.
6) u.smash has invincibility around your shell. You win all exchanges from opponents above you. Abuse it. Even activated counters will not hit you.
7) Pivot and bair for aerial kills.
8) Learn to land right. Easily what I struggle with most. Nair is instrumental here. Fortress through pursuit attempts.
9) Can you trade hits? Unless it will kill you, do it. Browser is harder to kill than the opponent.
10) You have passive hyper armor at low %. Punch through everything.
11) Is your opponent camping the ledge? Flamethrower and watch them squirm.
12) Jabs and ftilt are your go-to ground Attacks.
13) Chase roll recovers into Klaw.
14) Hop over projectiles into Flamethrower for your approach.
15) Be patient. You have good spacing and defense. Don't feel bad about dashing in and rolling out a few times before committing.

Started as a list of 5...I am no expert, but maybe my knowledge will help others. If anyone can figure out the point behind d.smash, let me know.

Reposted from my GAF post.

 

[Cassius.]

It's actually funny--a lot of those tips you posted are basically the exact same things for Brawl Bowser. This is a good and solid list for any Bowser player, old and new.

I want to add though, that although Up-B OoS isn't as good anymore in terms of invincibility anymore, its knockback is good enough to the point where you actually CAN'T get punished at low percents anymore for doing it (ie Brawl, where if someone was Falco he could actually punish your Up-B OoS punish with a chaingrab or something at the start of the round)

But one thing I always told Bowser players, which still holds true now was that you have to optimize the punish. Karst, you play fighting games, so you know about optimizing things in a given situation.

Don't let the increased knockback fool you. If you could ever Klaw someone instead of up-B OoS for a big punish, do it. That gives you screen control, positional advantage, and fresh 19% in this game (?). I think you still recover from Side-B faster than you do Up-B on a successful hit, and it will leave the opponent in the air. You have to commit to airdodging this time around, so if you make the proper reads, punish hard, and punish well. A lot of newer Bowser players are too quick to Up-B OoS just off of reflex instead of trying to punish harder. We may not have grab releases anymore, but we still have solid punish options in my opinion. This will all be fixed hopefully with a legitimate c-stick lol

Don't be afraid to B-reverse firebreath to escape aerial pursuits and things like that. We can hang deep offstage now with the Up-B buffs.

this is all pretty basic stuff, but it's always nice to review, and I think we can all benefit from compiling a list similar to Karst's, since we all have pretty different styles (I'm assuming)

 

[ImaClubYou]

Alright, so I take back what I said about Bowser. I realized that I only thought he felt weird cuz he's the first character I tried to play without knowing how the game feels yet. Needless to say, he feels pretty good!

You basically want to just rack up damage with grabs, Side B, jabs, ftilt and Fair. Then you can either finish off stage with a bair or follow your opponent as they land on stage, read the next move, and FSmash. Pretty much the majority of matches for me. Either that or Koopacide. Bowser's sets are faster than spacie matches in Melee sometimes.

Up air is really strong, it needs more use. Read the double jump and it's killing at 90%.

Fire Breath is also an amazing approach option. It catches a lot of rollers and spot dodgers and nets in 10-15% every time. It also stops projectiles cleanly, especially Duck Hunt.

Up Smash is awesome.

Nair seems to be a desperation move, imo. Don't really use it much unless I'm on defense.

Dtilt catches edge play. Kills around 125%.

Side B is my personal bread n butter. Just chase people with it, it'll land.

A lot of characters think camping Bowser is a good thing. Oh no people. By the time you get Bowser to 150% you're already dying at 50. This turtle is way to strong.

 

[Zigsta]

Wut, who SDI's first hit of Bowser Up-B?

More like regular DI and airdodging reflexively got you out of it. Which I'd assume doesn't work in this game?

Down b, not up b.

 

[Cassius.]

Yeah, the rage mechanic is actually pretty helpful. I've found that it hurts characters who have low-percent combos for when they're trying to hold leads when they're up a stock, but all Bowser does is just hit. So rage works well. A good dropkick read ends stocks at like 50. It's beautiful.

I'm still not used to rolling actually being a considerable option in this game and having to actually *commit* to an airdodge. It's rough on my end because I feel like my options are reversed from Brawl. But Bowser can eat bad habits alive, so it evens out.

And to answer Karst's question, downsmash used to be good in the previous iteration against spotdodges and rolls when you were inside your opponent, but now it seems as if it's a bit smaller. I'm not really sure what I can gather from it.

Does DSmash hit below the ledge? If so, it could probably have some use with ledge-trump fights or something like that. I'm just trying to think.

Is anyone having any luck with spiking people with DAir, or am I out of my mind?

 

[Zigsta]

Dsmash doesn't hit below the edge, but it still wrecks airdodges.

 

[Cassius.]

True, that's always been a staple though.

Do you guys think that Battlefield is still a splendid stage for Bowser? I've had mixed feelings about it since Klaw-hopping/dropping has been removed, which does limit his fluid movement. Bowser can still shark and side-b people for hanging on platforms for too long, but since our movement options are more limited with platforms, I'm not sure what to think. This stage-list that people have been throwing around is way too small...I will hold off on any lasting judgments until the Wii U version comes out, but for now I'm not sure.

And also, does anyone still think Bowser suffers from the same blindspot problem he had before? For anyone that doesn't know, Bowser had a pretty big issue dealing with opponents who were directly below him, without risk of committing to airdodges or trying to gamble on klaw. We do have buffed moves like DAir, and Down B which can break shields at times, but I'm still not really convinced that we can handle people who are in that area as efficiently still. I've been trying to test out and use NAir in certain situations where people are in the process of going below me or crossing me up, but I've had less success than I've been expecting.

and to add a second stamp to Bowser being able to use ground Klaw to grab people in the air, I just tried it and it does work. I tried it after a launch from NAir. It's awesome, definitely a plus in my book.

and what's the deal with people being able to shrug off firebreath towards the end of its hitbox?

as for custom moves, fireball is kind of fun to play around with. I haven't gotten a chance to use it in a match tbh. the Dash Klaw is absurd. ACTUALLY absurd. It's like a hidden "sorry for nerfing your aerial klaw" but not really. Aside from that, vertical upB is cool because you can go under battlefield with it, but then upB OoS just becomes "lol look at me, kill me", and Bowser Bomb should...just not be changed. I'm not sure if Turbulent Bomb has the same shield breaking prowress that the default down B does.

I'm blanking on what every 3rd custom special is lol

 

[A2ZOMG]

Down b, not up b.

Right, my bad. That was a typo. But as I said, you could just DI away from Bowser and airdodge his Down-B. SDI didn't really have anything to do with that.

 

[MrEh]

Do you guys think that Battlefield is still a splendid stage for Bowser?.

I do if you use dash klaw.

 

[Soshii]

You guys really need to try the fire breath on people trying to recover from below the stage. I promise, it works. Whenever I play my friend's Bowser, I can seriously predict it everytime but I literally cannot do anything about it if I can't wall jump. It's deadly for characters with completely vertical recoveries like LM, Falcon, and Mario.

 

[Jerodak]

Since there's been talk about Dsmash, I decided to look into it.

Guys, the new Dsmash seems pretty amazing, the range is a lot better than it looks, it's actually about the same as Brawl's and will cover most of a battlefield platform if you're standing in the middle of it. Now here's the best part, Remember how Bowser spun on a non central axis to get the range that it had in Brawl? Well i'm sure you noticed that he doesn't do that anymore, however there's a ring of dust on the ground on either side of Bowser that shows how far it actually reaches on either side of him, this part of the hitbox isn't overlapping any part of Bowser's body which means that the Dsmash is disjointed!

I have tested this, by Dsmashing a Bob-omb with that part of the hitbox, it exploded, Bowser took no damage. Also, when I was testing it against Luigi, it will always klank his fireballs before they even get close enough to touch Bowser while he's spinning and the CPU NEVER challenges the Dsmash, it'll just stand around and wait for your hitbox to leave, which is unfortunately is a bit earlier than it might look, Bowser is still spinning a bit after the hitbox is gone. However, I think that's a fair trade for such an amazing hitbox. I haven't tested how high the disjoint reaches, but from what I've seen it does not appear to be disjointed at the very top of the shell, it seems to just be on either side of him, I tried testing with the back end and wasn't able to find a range where explosions didn't hit me, but I think it's just cause of the animation making the shell extend just a little bit too far that way, For the most part, any attacks that aren't disjoints are probably going to lose.

What do you guys think about this?


Edit: By the way, in case no one knew this, you can fastfall rising SH Fair and Bair and still autocancel, the timing is about the same on both aerials, it's easier to practice with Fair since there's more of a visual indicator. Make sure to practice this on a sandbag or character since the timing when you actually hit is a bit different than when you miss. It's possible to do the fastfall too quickly if you connect with it then just go into landing lag, which sucks.

You want to complete the swipe, and look for the other hand, which isn't swiping to lift up next to him, at that part of the animation you will wait for half a second then you can fast fall. All this does, is shave off a few extra frames from your attack since you're spending less time in the air where you unable to do anything, it also makes following up on the fair a little better because you have extra frames to follow up with, the same goes for Bair, although you probably won't need the extra frames for follow-ups but it still makes it just a bit safer if you miss, and fast fall into shield seems pretty strong in this game.

Also, this does appear to give us a true combo option, if you're jumping towards a taller character and land the Fair, fast fall jab1 will connect before they can do anything. This seems to work starting from 18% probably to around 50% That's around the range it registers as a true combo in training mode, hopefully the combo counter in this game is more reliable than Brawl's. Anyway, even if they are out of range, you get a tech chase opportunity when they land if they tech, you could also try to hit them with a dash attack if they miss the tech and start juggling. By the way, Ftilt works too but only in the later percents, keep in mind that this isn't very easy to do since hit lag on Fair seems a bit higher than it did in Brawl but if you'r doing it correctly then it should register on the combo counter, also the second hit of jab will not combo out of the first hit in this situation for some odd reason. If anyone finds any other good uses for this then let me know, I'll add what you find to the OP.

 

[bubbaking]

I've been playing a bit of Bowser. He definitely seems like he's Top Tier to me.

Bowser kills consistently at 100% and doesn't die 'til 200%. He can edgeguard and recover pretty well. His tilts are very strong, have a lot of range, and come out quickly. His fair and bair are strong and autocancel out of a short hop. To perfectly compliment those, Bowser's sideB land-cancels and kills below 100%. He has his downB, which breaks full shields, and his dair, which severely hurts and pokes full shields, as a mix-up option to his downB. In addition to all this, he still has his upB OoS that he was famous for in every previous Smash iteration except for 64. His two normals I haven't mentioned (jab and uair) are fast and strong like his others.

When you start looking at his custom specials, he begins to look even MORE ridiculous. He has an airdash that land-cancels, is also a command grab (#2) or long-lasting hitbox (#3), and doubles as a ground dash. His neutral B #2 are large shots that go THROUGH projectiles, so it can check camping somewhat. His upB #2 (or #3, I can't remember) can traverse the entire stage very quickly, meaning he can do it OoS as a free nonpunishable get-away option, or he can use it to close the gap between himself and a campy char immediately. The only specials I don't know about are his downB alts, because I haven't unlocked those yet.

 

[DunnoBro]

^Is that copypasta?

 

[bubbaking]

From a post I made on FB, yes, for the most part. Are you part of the MD/VA Smash 3DS/Wii U group?

 

[-Kagato-]

Top tier may be stretching it. Lets give it a little more time. II'd rather not overhype and be disappointed later. Considering we Bowser mains have suffered bottom tier BS for 13 years, I'd be perfectly happy with Bowser being just mid-tier when all is said and done.

Still, you never know what'll happen, especially after the WiiU version is released and everyone gets their hands on some GCN controllers again.

 

[Jerodak]

Ran a test for the tough guy trait, it lasts till you pass 55% then you will flinch normally. I did this test by having Luigi shoot fireballs at me and changing the percentages till I started to flinch when I ran into them, I even gave Luigi a heart container to test if the rage mechanic could change anything, it didn't. Whether at 55% with me or at 0 the fireballs still do not flinch until after 55%. I think this percentage window is actually somewhat generous if we are using it to just plow through projectiles just don't get comboed or you'll lose it fast since most combos can easily take Bowser above this percentage. Tough guy appears to work on rapid jabing, during which you can usually grab or jab them back if they don't use the finisher fast enough, it also seems to work on most weak projectiles such as fireballs and so on. I haven't tested what else it works on, but It would probably be good to know, I'll probably start testing this out soon.

Also, It seems Fortress has an even larger disjoint than the Down smash does but only on the last hit and it's only slightly larger, Dsmash is overall the better disjoint in my opinon but fortress can move and hits through more of it's animation, making it safer. Pretty minor details but I guess it's good to know. Also, I notice that character jumping into fortress from below get spiked. Could this allow fortress to work as a ledge guard against characters that have trouble with ledge snap? Or maybe as a ledge regrab punisher? It seems that they will either get spiked down and away or down and towards you, it could potentially be useful, or not, either way it's good to know I guess.

 

[MrEh]

You guys really need to try the fire breath on people trying to recover from below the stage. I promise, it works. Whenever I play my friend's Bowser, I can seriously predict it everytime but I literally cannot do anything about it if I can't wall jump. It's deadly for characters with completely vertical recoveries like LM, Falcon, and Mario.

That's how it's been for the past 13 years though. :/

You take like 15% and eventually you'll be able to grab the ledge when the fire dies down.

Also, I notice that character jumping into fortress from below get spiked. Could this allow fortress to work as a ledge guard against characters that have trouble with ledge snap? Or maybe as a ledge regrab punisher?

Depends on which hits spike. The weaker hits or the final hit?

If it's the final hit, then that's pretty useless. If it's one of the initial hits, then this is worth looking into.

 

[Jerodak]

Depends on which hits spike. The weaker hits or the final hit?

If it's the final hit, then that's pretty useless. If it's one of the initial hits, then this is worth looking into.

It seems to happen at any point of the attack, the testing method I used was standing on battlefield platforms with the computer set to jump then fortress as they jumped up into me, they pretty consistently got spiked down without getting sucked into the attack at all.

The only thing I don't know is if it works against someone hanging on the ledge; that will need testing.

 

[Zigsta]

I don't think I've mentioned this yet, but Fortress's weak hit can now trip. It's awesome.

Also dropping through a platform and then quickly inputting dair is fun for mindgames. Dair automatically pushes Bowser back up to the platform he just passed through.

 

[Jerodak]

I don't think I've mentioned this yet, but Fortress's weak hit can now trip. It's awesome.

Also dropping through a platform and then quickly inputting dair is fun for mindgames. Dair automatically pushes Bowser back up to the platform he just passed through.

Yeah the tripping is great, sometimes you can even get follow-ups if they weren't expecting it. The Dair idea sounds good too, do we know how short a character can be and still get hit by it while standing under the platform?

 

[Zigsta]

Shortest character I've had it work on so far is MK.

 

[Jerodak]

Shortest character I've had it work on so far is MK.

Oh wow, that's pretty good, think it'll work pretty well for ledge coverage?

 

[Zigsta]

I'd need to test more, but I've intercepted opponents jumping up from the ledge with dair spike several times.

 

[Xadrin]

It seems to happen at any point of the attack, the testing method I used was standing on battlefield platforms with the computer set to jump then fortress as they jumped up into me, they pretty consistently got spiked down without getting sucked into the attack at all.

The only thing I don't know is if it works against someone hanging on the ledge; that will need testing.

For what it's worth, I once used up B against someone either on the ledge or about to grab the ledge, and they got pulled at an angle below me and into the stage. They then died because they were caught off guard.

I've tried it on some other characters hanging on the ledge for too long, and I've found that their hurtboxes were too low to get hit by the up B. I'm sure it does work, but if it does, it can't be used against every character.

 

[B!squick]

I already mentioned DAir's whackiness with platforms in the previous page.

/foreveralone

Well, time to go make a match-up topic for three reasons: 1) thought of an awesome name for it, 2) have an idea on how we should tackle the daunting task of 49+2 (Miis) characters in a timely matter, and 3) FIRST!

 

[DD_]

Does anyone know what our fastest or most efficient options is at point blank range after a clank? I've been vsing my friends sonic and he'll ball in and we clank, but then he always wins the proceeding exchange and i'm not sure what my best option here is

 

[B!squick]

Klaw? DownB? Not sure. Of the one person I played locally, none of him used Sonic. DTlit? Just try everything until something works, lol.

 

[Jerodak]

Does anyone know what our fastest or most efficient options is at point blank range after a clank? I've been vsing my friends sonic and he'll ball in and we clank, but then he always wins the proceeding exchange and i'm not sure what my best option here is

This is a very good question, would you mind using a little more detail? When you say the "procceeding exchange" what happens the moment immediately after you both klank? What does he do afterwards? What do you do afterwards?

 

[FEFIZ]

Guys, I'm the only one that ****ing loved the claw suicid move? If you cacth your oponente with 1 stock (that is very easy because is 2 stock match) is a instant win!!

 

[Jerodak]

Guys, I'm the only one that ****ing loved the claw suicid move? If you cacth your oponente with 1 stock (that is very easy because is 2 stock match) is a instant win!!

Oh no, we all know the importance of using the klaw for kills offstage, it can also be used to help with your recovery, but be careful that you don't become to comfortable, if you're the one behind a stock, then your opponent might try forcing you offstage instead, which would be bad. Also, keep in mind that even without the suicide, Klaw is a very easy and reliable kill option at around 120%~ depending on the character, I've even seen it kill at around 110 on lighter characters. So if your opponent is highly evasive or defensive, and you don't want to risk using something more powerful, and they are already over 100% anyway then try going for the Klaw to finish them off.

 

[B!squick]

One fatal flaw with the Klaw is it's range is the same as his normal grab. Can you extend Klaw's range with a pivot? And does anyone else end up rolling when trying to Klaw OoS? This happens quite frequently online especially.

 

[Jerodak]

One fatal flaw with the Klaw is it's range is the same as his normal grab. Can you extend Klaw's range with a pivot? And does anyone else end up rolling when trying to Klaw OoS? This happens quite frequently online especially.

I don't think you can, but klaw in this game is best used for whiff punishing, and for dash mix-ups, also for beating counters and moves with armor as long as you don't trade with it. I understand your frustration however, I've found myself whiffing klaws more time than I'd like to. Missing your punish by a few pixels isn't great.

 

[-Kagato-]

So I finally was able to unlock Slip Bomb (originally known as Quake Bomb), which causes players to slip if you don't hit them directly. Slip Bomb kills Mario a full 10% later than the original and it also deals 2% less damage. Also, much to my disappointment (but logically understand) it no longer breaks shields instantly, though it does a massive amount of shield damage anyway. It also loses the pop-up from the execution.

The slip effect reaches out by 2-3 Bowser-lengths, so it reaches pretty far. I've noticed it helps interrupt an opponent and prevents them from rolling away and charging a smash to punish the Bomb, but if timed correctly, the bomb and the quake can be dodged.

The slip can also be tech-chased by the Dash Slam if that's also equipped, so that's a bit handy.

Overall, I like it, but I'm honestly not sure if I prefer it over the original Bowser Bomb. The original has the damage, the kill power, and the shield-breaking capabilities, but at higher levels of play you really can't expect people to sit there and shield the Bowser Bomb. On the other hand, the Slip Bomb seems to have more practical applicaions since it's full effect comes into play if you actually miss the target, though a shielding opponent or someone who dodges at the right time is completely safe from all effects.

Some extra feedback on this matter would be greatly appreciated. I am leaning more towards Slip Bomb as the ideal choice, though it really depends on if the original Bowser Bomb can fit into more practical applications within it's own abilities, such as the pop-up effect.

Any other opinions on this?