Data Bowser's Moveset Data & Discussion

[MrEh]

I can't see myself using any of these except for the Fireball.

 

[Zigsta]

I can't see myself using any of these except for the Fireball.

Same here.

 

[Komenja]

Yeah, fireball looks pretty cool. Now we just need an 8-Bit Bowser's Castle stage so we can sit at the end and spam it!

 

[dskank]

theres a video from the e3 demo that really needs to be confirmed involving a possible AT for bowser.
it appears that bowser can cancel his whirling fortress into smash attacks, watch at 1:07 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7XotZQyWr0

bowser starts his up b then fsmashes in the opposite direction, anyone with access to a *** 3ds please confirm.

 

[Jerodak]

theres a video from the e3 demo that really needs to be confirmed involving a possible AT for bowser.
it appears that bowser can cancel his whirling fortress into smash attacks, watch at 1:07 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7XotZQyWr0

bowser starts his up b then fsmashes in the opposite direction, anyone with access to a *** 3ds please confirm.

Thank you for the contribution, unfortunately it's already been confirmed that this isn't a canceled fortress. If you slow down the footage and look carefully, what's really happening is that Bowser goes into his Fsmash wind-up then pivots while in his wind-up. Because of the way he hunkers down for the wind-up of his new Forward smash, combined with the speed of the pivot, it does indeed look like a fortress at full speed, but it's actually just a pivot forward smash.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

ZeRo's 100hr stream marathon had some Bowser at the tail end of it. He finally started to experiment with options that we all pretty much know from Brawl, as well as stuff in Sm4sh that I've posted impressions about already. However, to everyone seriously considering taking Bowser to tournaments, there was one big test that ZeRo performed with Bowser: footstooling a grounded opponent. The height and distance you get off of it in Sm4sh is far greater than it was in Brawl. Bowser travels almost half of final destination from the footstool jump.

http://www.twitch.tv/zero/b/572039313
Go to 13:35:00. ZeRo begins to explain to M2K how doing this covers our options against opponents trying to shield grab your landing. Like M2K and ZeRo says, it's an option to be used against high level players only.

EDIT: Also, a little bit earlier from that point, ZeRo was testing down tilt -> dash attack. At low %, if it trips, you use that combo. I don't know the rate for tripping with down tilt, though.

 

[Player-1]

is bowser's up-b still invincible on startup?

 

[Flayl]

That second fortress is insane against characters that characters that can't spike.

Oh wait you can't drop to the ledge. Hmm.

 

[Shök]

Bowser's jab is so good.

 

[ImaClubYou]

The revived Koopa Klaw is insulting.

 

[MrEh]

is bowser's up-b still invincible on startup?

Question of the ages.

 

[NinjaLink]

I just checked. It doesnt seem like it.

 

[Jerodak]

I just checked. It doesnt seem like it.

What was your testing method?

 

[NinjaLink]

What was your testing method?

Zooming in usually to see if theres a flash. Also tested with a bobomb. He gets hit before the hitbox comes out.

 

[Holychicken]

Auto-cancel

Spoiler

- You can short hop auto-cancel the bair, though I think people knew this already. It's really fun to do.
- You can full jump and do a bair or fair at the apex before fast falling. This will always auto-cancel.

On behalf of the people that don't know, how do you short hop auto-cancel the bair?

 

[MrEh]

Zooming in usually to see if theres a flash. Also tested with a bobomb. He gets hit before the hitbox comes out.

Then all is lost.

 

[Jerodak]

On behalf of the people that don't know, how do you short hop auto-cancel the bair?

If it's like the Fair auto-cancel then I imagine you'd just do it during the rise of your shorthop, so basically the instant Bowser's feet leave the ground your backair should be coming out, then you let Bowser land normally. You should land without entering Bair's landing lag animation, this means you auto-canceled it correctly.

 

[MrEh]

Man Bowser's jab feels like crap now.

 

[Jerodak]

Has anyone noticed that if you pause during jab 1 and do other actions during a certain frame of the ending animation Bowser will actually shift backwards slightly? Not by a huge amount but enough to notice for sure. It's most easily noticable when you jab then crouch. Now for the most part this seems useless outside of a very subtle spacing option perhaps but if you tap forward during your jab to buffer a fox trot, the forward and backwards momentum cancel each other out and Bowser will fox trot in place. During the fox trot. If you initiate your dash grab or dash attack out of this, he will lunge forward like he normally would with the attack or grab. I could see this being very useful for baiting and whiff punishing. What do you guys think? Did someone else notice this already? Anyone find any other uses for it?

Edit: Also it appears that up smash is fully intangible right when it comes out, I just used it on a blast box that was right next to me, it blew up, and I took no damage. Also did the same test with a bob-om, No damage, looks like it's completely invincible during the initial hitbox frame(s). If it still has shellguard as well then perhaps it'll be useful OOS against stuff like peach Dair and other annoying stuff that fortress wouldn't be able to punish properly. I knew it had intangibility already, but I thought it was only on the shell, I was surprised when the box didn't hit at all.

 

[ImaClubYou]

Meh. I'm not feelin Bowser as much as I did during the Best Buy demo.

Brb, chillin in the Samus/Charizard/Meta Knight threads.

 

[MrEh]

Edit: Also it appears that up smash is fully intangible right when it comes out, I just used it on a blast box that was right next to me, it blew up, and I took no damage. Also did the same test with a bob-om, No damage, looks like it's completely invincible during the initial hitbox frame(s). If it still has shellguard as well then perhaps it'll be useful OOS against stuff like peach Dair and other annoying stuff that fortress wouldn't be able to punish properly. I knew it had intangibility already, but I thought it was only on the shell, I was surprised when the box didn't hit at all.

Are you sure it's just not the autoguard on the shell blocking the explosion?

If the explosion hits the autoguard, then the hit is negated entirely iirc.

 

[Zarenthye]

I feel like there's ridiculous aerial to ground pressure you can apply with lag-cancelled Dash Slashes.
I'm not sure how punishable claw hitbox it is on shield, but if you start it low enough to the ground then it seems you can buffer a roll/attack to avoid a shieldgrab.

If it lands, you're pretty golden in terms of follow ups, considering they're in the air and you're lag-free on the ground. The grounded Dash Slash is also great chasing across the stage, catching rolls, etc.

And Bowser can essentially waveland with Dash Slash.

The move propels Bowser forward, so if you start the move just before landing, Bowser will slide across the ground laglessly. The length of the waveland is like 1/3 of FD. It's pretty slick.

edit: After playing around some more, I've figured out that you can "waveland" onto a platform with Dash Slash. If you full jump and side-B at the same time, the Dash Slash will cancel onto Battlefield's lower platform. It's reminiscent to Melee Bowser on Yoshi's Story where you ledgejump onto the platform and can act immediately. Except, with Dash Slash you can do it with any platform

 

[Jerodak]

Are you sure it's just not the autoguard on the shell blocking the explosion?

If the explosion hits the autoguard, then the hit is negated entirely iirc.

You could be right, but I've also noticed that it seems to work on Kirby's suction windbox, but then i've also been fsmashed out of the upsmash a few times, while other times The fsmash got stuffed by my upsmash. I think we might need to test this a little more to get more conclusive results. But bottomline, new upsmash looks pretty amazing right now.

 

[B!squick]

Hey old timers and new alike, what's crackin'?

I have mixed feelings about Bowser. His weaknesses were buffed and his strengths were nerfed it feels like.

Klaw doesn't seems to have the range it use to. I swear it only grabs if you hit with the palm of his hand and the fingers pass right through people. And it doesn't have nearly the same range in the air it use to. I also really missed the old draw back animation on the old FSmash. And the lack of grab releasing makes me sad. The fact that the push back from hits with Fire Breath can send you off stage and not interrupt it annoys me greatly (that got me killed online).

Everything else is better though. BAir. NAir. FAir. DAir. UpB. DownB. Ignoring most low hit stun flinching moves is great.

All in all, I think he's better. Mid tier-ish at least.

And is it my imagination, or are Flying Slam-cides always result in Bowser winning?

P.S.: Is Smash Boards super laggy for anyone else? I have to keep pausing every couple of words to make sure all the letters are showing up in the right order.

 

[MrEh]

Yeah, suicides are always in your favor now.

And yeah, Klaw feels way worse.

I think we might need to test this a little more to get more conclusive results. But bottomline, new upsmash looks pretty amazing right now.

Definitely.

Although one issue I've noticed is that the autoguard box appears to be LARGER then the actual Usmash hitbox. While in most cases this doesn't matter, it's really dumb when Grenenja Dairs Bowser's Usmash and just bounces off the autoguard. -_-

 

[Psyant]

Does anyone else find how fast Bowser can act out of a dash crazy? He can actually effectively dash dance because his sprint ends so quickly as well as just run up and do any move with no delay. The end-lag on dash stops seems to be shorter across the board but Bowser's is almost non-existent. It's really amazing.

 

[Jerodak]

Does anyone else find how fast Bowser can act out of a dash crazy? He can actually effectively dash dance because his sprint ends so quickly as well as just run up and do any move with no delay. The end-lag on dash stops seems to be shorter across the board but Bowser's is almost non-existent. It's really amazing.

Yup, this was demonstrated in the Bowser moveset Demo a while ago, It's nice to see that it made it into the game, it'll definately give Bowser some more options for moving around and mixing up the opponent. In fact, because of his stop being so fast, there's never a reason to turn around during a dash outside of pivot grabbing, tilting, or smashing. SImply stoping then dashing the other direction is the much faster option, and since you're neutral, there are even more defensive options available. Also, since It's using the stop animation, it can be done anywhere during the run animation, so there's no real strict window for it but it does have a minimum amount of time before it's available since it won't work during initial dash.

 

[Zigsta]

I've been testing Klaw a lot more lately and while it's def nerfed from Brawl I'm liking it more and more. It can also be lag less on landing with proper timing. Jab to Klaw is also pretty solid.

 

[Cassius.]

im not going to sift through posts, but bowser can still ledge cancel his side b like in brawl

so you can get instant back airs or whatever aerials off of a platform or ledge. has this been discovered already?

aka this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOwfw7Qbfoo (Brawl version)

uploading a replay now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ir4JMQDTmJM

so yeah. This is as it is in Brawl.

is this old news? did i waste my time? dunno if it'll be useful though considering how Bowser is now. It'll probably have more use on platforms than anything else

 

[Karsticles]

What are you all thinking in terms of custom moves? I feel like the dash Klaw is essential, the fire customs are crap, and the others are useful but questionable.

Also, does he have anything frontal with armor? I miss my Brawl forward smash.

 

[Xadrin]

I really like the dash Klaw. It provides Bowser with some extra mobility, it helps his side B's poor range, and it helps his horizontal recovery a bit, though he rarely needs help with it.

Flying Fortress (the vertical-only up B custom move) seems a bit broken. You can Bowsercide, jump out, and up B to make it back on what seems like most stages.

I've only unlocked these two custom moves so far, unfortunately, so I cannot give input on any other custom move.

Edit: Did some quick testing, and it seems like the Flying Fortress recovery from a Bowsercide is character specific on certain stages. On those certain stages, it doesn't work on characters like Bowser (surprisingly), yet it does work on characters like Zelda and Sheik.

 

[B!squick]

Interesting. Not sure if this is useful, a weakness, or neither, but you can fall completely through a platform and the draw back on DAir (never thought I'd ever type that, lol) will cause you to land on the platform above you.

In fact, it seems if you're on a one of the side platforms on Battlefield and you fall through and want to use an aerial on an opponent under it, you're ONLY option is BAir. You might be able to land the first hitbox or two of NAir that start behind you, but that's it.

 

[Soshii]

I'm not a Bowser main, but was wondering how one would counter his fire breath on the ledge gimp? If the fire breath is being held on the ledge, there's literally no way of getting back if you're below it because the ledge doesn't give you invincibility frames anymore.

 

[B!squick]

Pretty sure you still get invincibility, you just have to land if you want to get it again and the ledge snap range is even bigger than in Brawl it seems like. Unless you're a Spacie or a similar fast faller, you shouldn't have much trouble, at least in previous games. I haven't had much experience against players so far.

And just from what little I remember about everyone's recoveries and the knockback direction of Bowser's moves, there's really no reason that Bowser could be in a position to gimp with Fire Breath anyway.

In the rare instance that DOES happen for some reason... I don't know. The new fangled pushback from sustained moves like certain Jabs and the Fire Breaths should make it so that Bowser wont be able to cover the ledge fully after just a couple hits. There's probably a way to punish Bowser. In previous games, Dolphin Slash type UpBs always worked wonders.

 

[Cassius.]

i could've sworn the ledge does give you frames, just not if you try to grab it a second time without touching the ground

 

[Soshii]

Yeah, I'm a Falcon main so it hits me hard and is pretty effective. If I'm below the stage it's almost impossible to get back. I up-b to the ledge, get dropped because of the fire, up-B again and die. Bowser can also do this far enough back to where I can't up-air or hit him with anything.

 

[MrEh]

If I'm below the stage it's almost impossible to get back. I up-b to the ledge, get dropped because of the fire, up-B again and die.

That sounds weird to me. Shouldn't you be able to continuously upB until the fire wears off?

You were even able to do that in melee, where ledge snapping wasn't like a damn magnet.

I can't see myself using any of these except for the Fireball.

I'm eating my words. Dash Klaw is the greatest thing ever.


- Dash Klaw, like most SideB specials, can be done out of a pivot. Ever wanted to pivot grab some dude out of their landing, but your normal pivot grab won't reach? Or you were scared you might get hit by an aerial? NO LONGER A PROBLEM. IN FACT, DO IT FROM LIKE 15 FEET AWAY. It's a ridiculously safe way to punish landings.

- As a lot of you have noted, air Klaw is a lot smaller vertically then it was in Brawl. It's much much smaller. That makes it harder to fall on people with Klaw. Trying this in Smash 4 is bound to get you anti-aired more often then not, unless your opponent is shielding. However, because you can initiate air Dash Klaw really low to the ground, you can fly straight into people's faces and grab them.

- Air Dash Klaw, like regular Klaw, autocancels on landing. So if your opponent tries to spot dodge or roll to avoid Klaw, you can go for your usual pressure upon landing. Like regular Klaw, you can also use it right before landing to cancel a lot of your landing lag.

- Grounded regular Klaw cannot grab people in the air. However, for some ridiculous reason, Grounded Dash Klaw CAN. This is really really stupid, since you can now catch people before they hit the ground, or during the start of their jump animations. You can Dash Klaw and grab people offstage over the ledge. That's hilarious.

 

[Soshii]

After the second up-B, it stopped me completely from grabbing the ledge so I freefalled and died.

 

[Action Kazimer]

Hey guys, I dug around a bit, but didn't really find anyone talking about it. Is there a way do Bowser's Dair that doesn't involve him flying downward? I swear I've seen him do the upside-down-shell-spin animation without falling, but I wasn't sure if it was just a weird momentum causing it or not.

 

[Xadrin]

Hey guys, I dug around a bit, but didn't really find anyone talking about it. Is there a way do Bowser's Dair that doesn't involve him flying downward? I swear I've seen him do the upside-down-shell-spin animation without falling, but I wasn't sure if it was just a weird momentum causing it or not.

Unless there's another way I haven't stumbled upon yet, it seems like the only way to use your dair without him slamming down like he usually does is to use it right after you get hit. It's a momentum thing, yeah.

He does fall, though. Just not as quickly.