Bowser vs. MK is probably not 45-55

[Pierce7d]

Hey there Bowser boards. I'm here to discuss your match-up versus MK. Right now, the MK ban discussion is surging on again, and one of the things that has been bothering me the most is that many people are saying that "MK has mostly 60-40s on most of the cast, and this makes him not ban-worthy, because he can still be fought. I want to discuss this, because I simply don't think this is true. The Marth boards have Marth vs. MK at 65-35 for quite some time. Having few negative match-ups, it became clear for us exactly what a 60-40 match-up was, and saw that MK was a bit more consistent in victory that that.

That being said, I want to see exactly why players think their character is capable of fighting an accomplished MK. That being said, I know what MK is capable of, but there are probably things I don't know about your character. This said, I'm going to use a slightly different approach to analyze the match-up than that which was previously used, but addressing the phases of gameplay.

What moves do you use to space/zone MK?

 

[MrEh]

At this time, I think it's 40-60. Once MK learns the matchup, it gets sour pretty quickly.


I angle Ftilts and Jab. Shield a lot and try to punish MK when he can be punished. (which isn't that common sadly)

It's a fun matchup, but stupid once MK learns your tricks.

 

[EnragedMathlete]

What moves do you use to space/zone MK?

ftilt, retreating fairs and flame breath.

Flame breath seems to put mk in an awkward position where he needs to go above bowser to attack (at kill % for utilt this is pretty awful for mk).

Retreating fairs are great since they will beat out most of MK's approaches.

General comments on the matchup:
Tornado wrecks bowser pretty hard if he is not careful but we can get out of it with nair, dash attack, klaw, etc. The same is also true when mk gets under bowser... If bowser gets knocked off stage MK can really screw with us. On stage it's not that bad.

If bowser gets a grab on mk at mid % in a decent position bowser should get the kill. Even if this isn't the case utilt, dtilt, bair, and bowser's situational kill moves (smashes, uair, bowser bomb) kill mk very early.

As for stuff you might not know, if mk is at the ledge, I'll often go for a bowser sit ( ledge canceled) to knock him off (this usually kills mk if I don't sd in the process).

If MK's shield is low (or they forget about the 2nd hit), the second hit of the upsmash will often connect if they shielded the first one.

Someone mentioned this awhile back that jab + bowser bomb will break any character's shield.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qda_OvMhy0w&feature=channel_page
check :47

Also, i think Sliq mentioned klaw having very little landing lag (3 frames?). Considering this should only happen if they spot dodged we should be at a frame advantage. Klaw->klaw or klaw>grab klaw>jab are pretty good.

 

[Popertop]

he also ***** bowser off stage.

uairs into tornado is basically free damage because of how huge bowser is.

 

[B!squick]

Yeah, FTilt, Jabs, Firebreath, and Shield Specials as best you can is pretty much all Bowser can do really.

 

[Red Arremer]

I thought Bowser's Grab Release works pretty good on MK.

May be wrong, though, I hardly use them, other than against Ness, lol

 

[B!squick]

Don't forget Lucas and Wario.

 

[Red Arremer]

Almost never playing one of those. =P

 

[Pierce7d]

Alright, so from the feedback I'm getting, you use general spacing tools. However, with the strategies you listed here, I feel the match-up is worse than you think when you consider MK's tools. What would you do against a MK that employs the following strategy:

Zone with retreating and in place Fairs to stop Bowser from advancing.
Bait Bowser into zoning with a Fair, and then tornado in. It goes through every single option Bowser has in the air, including dodge, even if he just SHs slightly off the ground.
Initiate traps once Bowser is caught with tornado/tornado AGAIN for more damage.
Shuttle Loop Bowser anytime he jumps at MK, since it wrecks any aerial approach.
Get inside Bowser's zone, and start racking up massive damage. Be careful, and retreat with tornado if you're in danger.
If you score a Shuttle Loop, proceed to edgeguard bowser so he takes massive damage, or loses a stock.
If you mess up your edgeguard, use Uair -> Shuttle Loop combo to knock bowser back off the stage while he's lagging from his recovery, or tornado catch him before he can act again.
From the edge, use Dairs, or drop below the stage and reverse Shuttle Loop back on to knock Bowser out really far.
Nair to punish any of Bowser's errors when you're in close, for massive damage and knockback.
Systematically repeat the process, and take all of Bowser's stocks.

This strategy does not even include ANY smash attacks or tilts, so MK still has more tools, but we'll talk about those later. How would a Bowser begin to fight this strategy. Remember that the MK begins by camping with Fair, so he will not simply rush recklessly into Ftilt.

 

[Bowser King]

As much as I love a thread that tries to get people to vote for a ban, is this really necessary?

I agree that it could be 60-40 (I was leaning towards that in the first place) but we don't need a thread JUST for MK.

There may be a lot of matchups people think were given the wrong number, that doesn't mean each one should be allowed to make a thread for it.

Also, matchup numbers are stupid. Anyone who even takes those things half serious other then when it's 65-35 really needs to get a brain check.

Most of the time, matchups are just theory crafted numbers that don't take into account a lot of things. No one should take them extremely serious.

Most high ranking players would tell you the same.

-Bowser King

 

[TexanBull58]

bowser in my opinion has it has 55-45 with his advantage, i dont post much on here, but i do play quite a few MKS and ill let u kno that as long as bowser maintains his superior range, and keeps good spacing and oncei n a while uses fire to keep MK at bay he pretty much owns the ground, however if MK gets bowser up in the air bowser has to dodge and do everything he can to get back on the ground where he has the advantage, another thing with bowser is shield game, shield shiled counter is the simplest way to beat MK honstly MK in my opinion has a huge advanatage against other lightweights and some middleweights, thats why to some he may seem so tough, using a new style with bowser is in my opinion the advantage and easiest way to beat MK

and bowser kign has a point, as long as their is no infinite chain grab but in bowsers case for example when i play DDD i use my own chain grab release to counter DDDs chain grab, plsus if u just stay near the edge the chan grab is useless cuz DDD needs speace to rack up damage cuz he runs across the level to do it, so wit hthe exception of the character jiggly in my opinion every characters has a chance a good chance at that in winning depending on his playstyling dotn take those matchups into account so much and on the other hand dont take tier lists so much either cuz many people dont use bowser not cuz he is bad, in my opinion he is the best, but because many people just dont play with him, they never really tried using him

 

[<π]

I picked up bowser almost specfically for meta... sadly the match up is far from even. tornado destroys bowser. there is no way to consistently get through it once you are in the air and since bowser doesn't have good horizontal air speed he can't out maneuver or air dodge through the attack easily.

That said a really good meta is going to be so hard to grab. when spaced correctly you aren't going to shield grab his moves and unlike marth you won't be able to rush in to throw off his spacing since he can easily swap out a fair with a rising dair or even tornado to readjust position very safely out of range of grabs and fortress.

Bowser is excellent against metas who approach sloppily but really good metas won't jump on your sword... if you will.

 

[Darknid]

Alright, so from the feedback I'm getting, you use general spacing tools. However, with the strategies you listed here, I feel the match-up is worse than you think when you consider MK's tools. What would you do against a MK that employs the following strategy:

Zone with retreating and in place Fairs to stop Bowser from advancing.
Bait Bowser into zoning with a Fair, and then tornado in. It goes through every single option Bowser has in the air, including dodge, even if he just SHs slightly off the ground.
Initiate traps once Bowser is caught with tornado/tornado AGAIN for more damage.
Shuttle Loop Bowser anytime he jumps at MK, since it wrecks any aerial approach.
Get inside Bowser's zone, and start racking up massive damage. Be careful, and retreat with tornado if you're in danger.
If you score a Shuttle Loop, proceed to edgeguard bowser so he takes massive damage, or loses a stock.
If you mess up your edgeguard, use Uair -> Shuttle Loop combo to knock bowser back off the stage while he's lagging from his recovery, or tornado catch him before he can act again.
From the edge, use Dairs, or drop below the stage and reverse Shuttle Loop back on to knock Bowser out really far.
Nair to punish any of Bowser's errors when you're in close, for massive damage and knockback.
Systematically repeat the process, and take all of Bowser's stocks.

This strategy does not even include ANY smash attacks or tilts, so MK still has more tools, but we'll talk about those later. How would a Bowser begin to fight this strategy. Remember that the MK begins by camping with Fair, so he will not simply rush recklessly into Ftilt.

I don't get where you're getting the idea that Bowser will be approaching MK. If he is fair camping, you can use your flamethrower to damage him safely. Remember, MK can't move very fast in the air, and flamethrower blocks ground movement, so it's a safe move. Get inside Bowser's zone? That's very risky. Bowser can CG MK on both releases, and it racks up plenty of damage. His throws rack up a lot of damage as well. If Bowser CGs several times, to D throw to flamethrower that's a good amount of damage. Damage to MK means a lot more than it does to Bowser. If you play carefully, you will survive until what..150? I sure as **** do, as DK who is lighter than Bowser. Another thing is Bowser's F tilt is one of the only moves that reliably breaks tornado. Many moves have to be spaced or angled correctly but generally I just throw an F tilt out there and it beats anything he tries.

So basically..

MK Pros:

Well, same pros he has in every one of his matchups. Bowser is easier to combo but harder to kill, this just means he'll end up actually doing more work. He's also harder to gimp than you'd imagine, but that's the only way he'll kill before like 150%.


Bowser Pros:

Chaingrab
MK cannot attack Bowser directly without having to deal with his OOS options. Bowser can camp effectively.
He kills early and dies late, and this can be trouble for MK.
He can space MK effectively.
He has a projectile, and MK doesn't like that.

Another thing is Bowser can punish nado as good as anyone if he shields the full thing. Side B is 18% damage, easy.

 

[MrEh]

Zone with retreating and in place Fairs to stop Bowser from advancing.

Shoot fire. No, I'm not talking about using Fire as an approach. That's dumb. Shooting the minimum amount of Fire possible can be used as a spacing tool.

Bait Bowser into zoning with a Fair, and then tornado in.

I don't even use the Fair to zone. Or an approach forthat matter. It would be foolish to try it. Meta has a sword. lol

It goes through every single option Bowser has in the air, including dodge, even if he just SHs slightly off the ground.

That's why we won't be in the air. We'll try to be on the ground at all times.

Initiate traps once Bowser is caught with tornado/tornado AGAIN for more damage.

Nothing we can do about this though.

Shuttle Loop Bowser anytime he jumps at MK, since it wrecks any aerial approach.

That's why approaching from teh air isn't a good idea. I approach from the ground at all times.

If you score a Shuttle Loop, proceed to edgeguard bowser so he takes massive damage, or loses a stock.

Grim reality right here.

 

[B!squick]

I picked up bowser almost specfically for meta... sadly the match up is far from even. tornado destroys bowser. there is no way to consistently get through it once you are in the air and since bowser doesn't have good horizontal air speed-

*eye twitches*

NO. STOP. HOLD IT RIGHT THERE.

First of all, it is clear you have not read this thread or at least recently, so please go do so when you get the chance. I had [IMPORTANT UPDATE!] in the title for a whole week for a reason. It's clear that I may have to devote a whole thread to stop this once and for all.

Here's a link to what specifically I'm referring to:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=167952&highlight=speed

ONLY 8 CHARACTERS IN THE ENTIRE GAME ARE FASTER THAN BOWSER IN THE AIR!

Specifically these characters are Yoshi, Jigglypuff, Wario, Wolf, Captain Falcon, Sonic, Donkey Kong, and Lucas.

The reason why Bowser has so much trouble with 'Nado once he's actually caught in it is because of his large hurtbox and Bowser is the heaviest character in the game, meaning once you get a combo started on Bowser, it's extremely hard to stop it. Granted, Bowser has Fortress and it's Frame 1 invincibility, but this really only works on Shiek's FTilt and other such close to the ground combos. A midair Fortress with it's bouncing landing lag once the free fall starts is super easy to punish.

EDIT: Also, ditto Darknid and MrEh's posts.

 

[Beren Zaiga]

*eye twitches*

NO. STOP. HOLD IT RIGHT THERE.

First of all, it is clear you have not read this thread or at least recently, so please go do so when you get the chance. I had [IMPORTANT UPDATE!] in the title for a whole week for a reason. It's clear that I may have to devote a whole thread to stop this once and for all.

Here's a link to what specifically I'm referring to:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=167952&highlight=speed

ONLY 8 CHARACTERS IN THE ENTIRE GAME ARE FASTER THAN BOWSER IN THE AIR!

Specifically these characters are Yoshi, Jigglypuff, Wario, Wolf, Captain Falcon, Sonic, Donkey Kong, and Lucas.

The reason why Bowser has so much trouble with 'Nado once he's actually caught in it is because of his large hurtbox and Bowser is the heaviest character in the game, meaning once you get a combo started on Bowser, it's extremely hard to stop it. Granted, Bowser has Fortress and it's Frame 1 invincibility, but this really only works on Shiek's FTilt and other such close to the ground combos. A midair Fortress with it's bouncing landing lag once the free fall starts is super easy to punish.

EDIT: Also, ditto Darknid and MrEh's posts.

I know you are being completely serious, but your reaction was priceless! XD

I agree that Bowser has good speed btw.

 

[Pierce7d]

Alright, granted that Bowser never approaches, and never jumps, he can repel MK from approaching. Still, he scores 0 hits so far this way if the MK does nothing but Fair in place. What if the MK decides to dash in and shield out of grab range? Shuttle Loop will still connect, so any attack can be punished?

Also, if MK scores a percent lead, and chooses not to approach, how would Bowser usurp this lead if MK uses the techniques I listed on the last page.

Also, if MK is zoning with SHFair barely out of ftilt range, can't MK punish even the slightest use of FireBreath with Tornado or Shuttle Loop into Glide Attack (or even Dimension Cape? I'm not sure if Fire beats Drill Rush.)

 

[B!squick]

Firebreath beats 'Nado... sometimes. Just like FTilt beats it... sometimes. I've had both connect and sometimes Fire/Tilt wins and other times 'Nado wins. I guess it's one of those, 'you have to do it just right,' kinda things.

Anyway, Firebreath has decent range with that very first flaming hitbox, so the trick would be tapping that NeutralB so that it bothers MK, but NOT holding it down at all to prevent punishment. Never really tryed something like this as I've NEVER played a Meta that felt the need to camp Bowser, so I have no idea if this works or not.

Bowser has pretty decent grab range, so if Meta is dashing in to shield just out of that range, I think a Klaw would connect. If he's any further away than that, I wouldn't exactly call it "in". Not much Bowser can do against a well spaced Shuttle Loop except try and predict and shield then shield Glide Attack and answer with UpB. I don't know about this either though. I have to settle for WiFi and lots of B > B > B > B > B > B > B > B > DSmash. x_x

If MK is just out of Tilt range then Bowser would have to either approach, shield FAir, UpB, whatever, or do a SH retreating Firebreath, maybe mind game it with a Wave Bounced Firebreath. I don't know. I'm still trying to imagine MK camping Bowser and it's really hard, lol.

 

[MrEh]

Firebreath beats 'Nado... sometimes. Just like FTilt beats it... sometimes. I've had both connect and sometimes Fire/Tilt wins and other times 'Nado wins. I guess it's one of those, 'you have to do it just right,' kinda things.

Firebreath doesn't even come close to being reliable though. Ftilt is more reliable, but you're better off not challenging the nado. Unless you're in position to dash attack or something.

Also, if MK is zoning with SHFair barely out of ftilt range, can't MK punish even the slightest use of FireBreath with Tornado or Shuttle Loop into Glide Attack (or even Dimension Cape? I'm not sure if Fire beats Drill Rush.)

If you do it from the maximum range possible, a shuttle lopp glide attack won't work. You should be able to shield in time, and Fortress OoS beats the glide attack.

As for the Nado, I think you can shield in time, but I don't remember.

 

[Liquid Gen]

I feel I should point out down b out of shield ***** shuttle loop.

Actually, it ***** shuttle loop period.

 

[Pierce7d]

Considering Bowser can't jump or he leaves himself severely open to Tornado, I take into account that Bowser can crawl, so he can still adjust his spacing on the ground without giving his back to MK (this is pretty important IMO).

However, can Bowser space adequately enough to use firebreath from maximum range, while MK is camping Fair and the periodic dtilt to prevent Bowser from dashing forward in between?

I should point out that DownB is extremely telegraphed, and if Bowser DownB's while MK is not open, Shuttle Loop will probably connect first, before the hitbox on Bowser Bomb comes out. Furthermore, it sets Bowser up for Uair combos, in which case Bowser is royally destroyed. Lastly, MK could simply spot dodge and punish. If MK is camping properly, Bowser Bomb is not threatening.

If the MK mixes in non-approached Tornadoes with his zoning, is it likely that he can bait an ftilt by hovering out of range from the MK's ftilt until he swings, and punishing it only if he does swing? If MK began to employ this tactic, could Bowser punish it if MK had space to retreat?

 

[Red Arremer]

You know that Bowser Bomb has a second hit when used on the ground? He first slaps forward, knocking the enemy upward, then goes into the air and falls down onto them.

 

[MrEh]

However, can Bowser space adequately enough to use firebreath from maximum range, while MK is camping Fair and the periodic dtilt to prevent Bowser from dashing forward in between?

Possibly. If Bowser screws up, then MK can jump over the fire and punish him with a Dair. Bowser needs to predict MK and mix up with Ftilts accordingly. It's not the easiest thing to do though.

If the MK mixes in non-approached Tornadoes with his zoning, is it likely that he can bait an ftilt by hovering out of range from the MK's ftilt until he swings, and punishing it only if he does swing? If MK began to employ this tactic, could Bowser punish it if MK had space to retreat?

Bowser can only punish the nado in three realistic ways.

1. Dash attack (NinjaLink swears that this works)

2. Well spaced Ftilt

3. Or the best method, Fortress OoS

 

[Liquid Gen]

Pierce, I meant that shuttle looping gimps or otherwise above stage our extremely risky vs. Bowser, considering he can sit on you in the middle of it.

I have done this plenty of times, MK is not difficult, just rather annoying; like Diddy, almost.

 

[B!squick]

I think Diddy's worse though. Those bananas can be quite the obstacle...

And what's this about Bowser's crawl? O.o?

Also, only the aerial DownB is telegraphed. The first hit of the ground version smacks on... frame 11. That's a sixth of a second. Then you're in the air and eating the second hit before you can say "what the ****?" :D

 

[Popertop]

I think Diddy's worse though. Those bananas can be quite the obstacle...

And what's this about Bowser's crawl? O.o?

Also, only the aerial DownB is telegraphed. The first hit of the ground version smacks on... frame 11. That's a sixth of a second. Then you're in the air and eating the second hit before you can say "what the ****?" :D

True, Diddy is a prick.

Really though, if you can manage to hold onto one it's not that bad. And klaw-hop a lot lol.

But yeah, I've actually managed to smash DI and airdodge out of the grounded version.
But that was Wario, so....

 

[Liquid Gen]

By the way, first hit of down B cancels out tornado and knocks him up for a hit, and you can crawl to space yourself for it.

I knew down B had an effective purpose.

 

[Darky-Sama]

By the way, first hit of down B cancels out tornado and knocks him up for a hit, and you can crawl to space yourself for it.

I knew down B had an effective purpose.

^ - Truth.
Been tested. lulz.

 

[B!squick]

Well, truth be told, ANYONE can just air dodge out of the second hit (SAKURAIIIIIIIII!), but I've never had it happen to me before. You really have to see it coming, know Bowser well, and/or have good reflexes to be able to dodge the second hit. As I said, I've never had it happen to me before.

Also, Klaw Hopping doesn't really work because Diddy can just shoot you down so you end up landing on them anyway, lol.

 

[Popertop]

yeah, pretty much all three are the reason lol

 

[Nitros14]

Well, truth be told, ANYONE can just air dodge out of the second hit (SAKURAIIIIIIIII!), but I've never had it happen to me before. You really have to see it coming, know Bowser well, and/or have good reflexes to be able to dodge the second hit. As I said, I've never had it happen to me before.

Go try to grounded Bowser Bomb a level 9 Ness Computer, he'll air dodge the second hit EVERY SINGLE TIME WITHOUT FAIL.

 

[Red Arremer]

Go try to grounded Bowser Bomb a level 9 Ness Computer, he'll air dodge the second hit EVERY SINGLE TIME WITHOUT FAIL.

Level 9 CPUs are programmed to do stuff like that. They read your button input and quickly react to it.

 

[Hobobloke]

The computers airdodge instantly after basically any attack, thats why.

 

[Kitamerby]

The computers airdodge instantly after basically any attack, thats why.

Not true! They sometimes jump. =D

 

[TechnoMonster]

FTR Bowser can't be camped by MK in a way that forces Bowser to approach, however. Thinking this matchup is evenish at the high levels is silly, however; MK's D-tilt to grab and D-air are Bowser slayers. Rising D-air, DJ D-air tornado chase is ******** good, and once MK is in he can D-tilt once or twice and go for a grab to awesome throw game. Tornado is going to work Bowser's shield all the time if MK is playing rushdown, because its not going to be safe to throw out firebreath or take to the air with Side-Bs.

I just think that good MKs are going to be eating it up and not giving away anything. Bowser's main approach (sideB air mixup) is softcakes here; MK doesn't have to zone with F-air, he can just sit there and then jump anytime Bowser pushes a button.

 

[<π]

I also think bowser doesn't have this match, BUT... anyone really confident in it toss me an IM please. I want to learn it.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

Considering Bowser can't jump or he leaves himself severely open to Tornado, I take into account that Bowser can crawl, so he can still adjust his spacing on the ground without giving his back to MK (this is pretty important IMO).

However, can Bowser space adequately enough to use firebreath from maximum range, while MK is camping Fair and the periodic dtilt to prevent Bowser from dashing forward in between?

I should point out that DownB is extremely telegraphed, and if Bowser DownB's while MK is not open, Shuttle Loop will probably connect first, before the hitbox on Bowser Bomb comes out. Furthermore, it sets Bowser up for Uair combos, in which case Bowser is royally destroyed. Lastly, MK could simply spot dodge and punish. If MK is camping properly, Bowser Bomb is not threatening.

If the MK mixes in non-approached Tornadoes with his zoning, is it likely that he can bait an ftilt by hovering out of range from the MK's ftilt until he swings, and punishing it only if he does swing? If MK began to employ this tactic, could Bowser punish it if MK had space to retreat?

my major problem with this is that it's based on the assumption that his fair/dtilt is safe on our shield, and neither of them are due to the ridiculous upb. mk has to be careful with bowser on the ground

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Bump. Just cuz. What's the matchup assumed now?

 

[Red Arremer]

We think it's 60:40 in Bowser's advantage now.

 

[Flayl]

No, no we don't.