Bidoof Academy - Pokémon Trainer Q+A Thread

[Myollnir]

Hello!

Squirtle : I think it's N-air (frame 3), but U-air ends earlier and thus allows you to jump earlier or SideB (which reduces your momentum). I personnally use U-air.

Ivysaur and Charizard : B-air.

 

[yoshi8984]

I thought N-Airs were never used for Momentum Cancelling (except for G&W who can bucket brake lol) since you'd have to hit the control stick after you did your aerial.

For some reason I thought U-Air was faster with Ivy and Charizard... Guess I was wrong XD

Thanks! ^__^

 

[Grizzlpaw]

I've been working with Ivysaur a.d charizard a lot lately.

With Ivysaur, I've noticed that (while his combo potntial is surprisingly good) playing aggro with him just... doesn't work.

Playing defense with Ivy is nice and all, but I just can't seem to beat out anyone who can out camp me. Playing defensively at mid-range helps, but I still seem to always lose.

Is ivy meant to be mostly Camp/spacing focused, or am I just aggroing wrong?


Also with Charizard, I use Flamethrower and Rocksmash A LOT. Both are just soooo good for spacing, but should I maybe save smash for more K.O's

Also, I heard that charizard should never venture abovr a short hop's distance from the groung, but I find that full hoping and hovering in the air above-away from your opponent is good for baiting and mind gaming them. Even spacing. Has anyone else ever tried this?

Sorry for the 10 billion questions. I just don't want to develop bad habbits.

 

[Bomber7]

I've been working with Ivysaur a.d charizard a lot lately.

With Ivysaur, I've noticed that (while his combo potntial is surprisingly good) playing aggro with him just... doesn't work.

Playing defense with Ivy is nice and all, but I just can't seem to beat out anyone who can out camp me. Playing defensively at mid-range helps, but I still seem to always lose.

Is ivy meant to be mostly Camp/spacing focused, or am I just aggroing wrong?


Also with Charizard, I use Flamethrower and Rocksmash A LOT. Both are just soooo good for spacing, but should I maybe save smash for more K.O's

Also, I heard that charizard should never venture abovr a short hop's distance from the groung, but I find that full hoping and hovering in the air above-away from your opponent is good for baiting and mind gaming them. Even spacing. Has anyone else ever tried this?

Sorry for the 10 billion questions. I just don't want to develop bad habbits.

Congratulations, you know how to play Ivysaur.

You should avoid spamming rocksmash, it's useful in a pinch and needs to be fresh for a KO.

 

[Grizzlpaw]

Hmm... I thought so.
I'll stick to playing Ivysaur defensively in that case. If anything playing him helps to reballance the momentum of the match since he just flat out walls out most characters that try wrecklessly apporach.


Thanks for clearing that up. I'll try to use it more selectively from now on.
It's become such an intergral part of my playstyle though, I don't think I'll be able to save it for a K.O.

I'm still curious about the whole "not venturing too high above the ground" concept though. Can anyone clarify as to why that is?

 

[Myollnir]

I've been working with Ivysaur a.d charizard a lot lately.

With Ivysaur, I've noticed that (while his combo potntial is surprisingly good) playing aggro with him just... doesn't work.

Playing defense with Ivy is nice and all, but I just can't seem to beat out anyone who can out camp me. Playing defensively at mid-range helps, but I still seem to always lose.

Is ivy meant to be mostly Camp/spacing focused, or am I just aggroing wrong?


Also with Charizard, I use Flamethrower and Rocksmash A LOT. Both are just soooo good for spacing, but should I maybe save smash for more K.O's

Also, I heard that charizard should never venture abovr a short hop's distance from the groung, but I find that full hoping and hovering in the air above-away from your opponent is good for baiting and mind gaming them. Even spacing. Has anyone else ever tried this?

Sorry for the 10 billion questions. I just don't want to develop bad habbits.

is a very defensive character, so yeah, if you're getting outcamped, it becomes more difficult to win.

He's a "bad" character overall (although not THAT bad) so that's normal if you lose, some MU are just so difficult, but in my opinion, playing at mid-range is the best solution.

B-air, F-air, Pivot grab, D-Tilt and F-Tilt are good options at mid-range. BS can save you when the opponent manages to get in, but only if you're fighting a big/heavy character.

If you want to play aggro, I guess N-air is your best bet to start comboing. But is meant to be played defensively.

--

With , you don't want to be above your opponent. Really. has a very hard time when trying to land. He gets juggled really easily, even with 2 mid-air jumps.

FT and RS are very good moves. can cover his landings very well by mixing up those options.

Landing with a RS will do a ton of damage ( + free U-smash), but you'll get punished if the opponent avoids it (Shield, Roll, Dash/Walk away, and so on).

Doing a wavebounced will shut down rollers (you'll have shards behind you as well).

Landing with a FT will beat shields and dash/walk away (unless they're moving too far). You can also wavebounce your FT when you need to retreat while doing it.

Don't save RS for KOs. That move is just too good.

If you do it on the ground, you can use it as a counter (avoid doing this against transcendent/disjointed moves though). If the opponent hit the rock, he'll take a ton of damage. And the rock appears at frame 3, which is awesome.

If you do a SH RS to punish a spotdodge or a laggy move, you can follow up with an U-Smash, which will deal 61% when fresh. Yep ; 61%. And you'll be able to juggle. So broken.

This move rocks (no pun intended). Don't spam it though ; that would be a terrible mistake, because it is really predictable.

 

[MaTA]

spam rocksmash against people who suck, you dont need it to kill them.

 

[Rizen]

Can all of Rock smash be reflected or only the debris? So if Fox has his reflector on and Char RSs directly on him will the first RS hit hurt fox if Char breaks the rock? If a shine breaks the rock will the entire attack be reflected?

Can Squirt's water spray be reflected?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Can all of Rock smash be reflected or only the debris? So if Fox has his reflector on and Char RSs directly on him will the first RS hit hurt fox if Char breaks the rock? If a shine breaks the rock will the entire attack be reflected?

Can Squirt's water spray be reflected?

The headbutt of Rock Smash cannot be reflected, but if a reflector hitbox breaks the rock, the reflected shards are likely to hit Charizard before he can do the headbutt.

Water Gun can be reflected, but, because it's made up of ~15 individual projectiles, they end up being reflected and then canceling the water right behind it.

 

[T-block]

Hello!

Squirtle : I think it's N-air (frame 3), but U-air ends earlier and thus allows you to jump earlier or SideB (which reduces your momentum). I personnally use U-air.

Ivysaur and Charizard : B-air.

I thought N-Airs were never used for Momentum Cancelling (except for G&W who can bucket brake lol) since you'd have to hit the control stick after you did your aerial.

For some reason I thought U-Air was faster with Ivy and Charizard... Guess I was wrong XD

Thanks! ^__^

When the hitbox comes out is completely irrelevant. What you want is the aerial that ends the quickest, as that is what allows you to regain control over your character fastest. For Squirtle, that's u-air.

 

[Myollnir]

For vertical killmoves, I'm pretty sure it's N-air since you just want to fastfall asap.

As for horizontal killmoves, even if you DI properly, I'm not sure if N-air is the best option.

Anyway, using U-air is more practical so that's what I MC with.

 

[Rizen]

Squirt uses Uair, hmmm. I use Bair with all 3 because habit and most of my characters use it.

 

[T-block]

For vertical kill moves, in almost all cases the aerial doesn't matter because you can fastfall on frame 1 of the aerial - you don't need to wait for the hitbox to come out.

 

[Myollnir]

Whoops you're right, sorry. I don't know what I was thinking, you can definitely fastfall during the startup.

I just remembered watching an old video where a Wolf survives 1% longer to a vertical killmove by doing a Nair and not a Bair. But actually now I think it's just due to the fact that the aerial can't be buffered so it can be difficult to MC asap. My bad

 

[T-block]

It might also be because of the way the character's bones get rearranged during an aerial, which might prevent them from reaching the blastzone. Not sure of the specifics of Wolf's animations, but the difference can be clearly seen in Snake's u-air vs. b-air, for example.

 

[Myollnir]

Well, speaking of this, when I tested Charizard's D-Throw, I saw that Snake's B-air is better than his U-air. O.o

 

[T-block]

For horizontal survivability? Are you really confident in that result?

 

[Rizen]

Snake's Bair is just an all around miracle attack :/

 

[Myollnir]

Yeah, but maybe I'm wrong.

 

[Grizzlpaw]

Well... It appears the Lucario boards were of absolutely no help.
(nice people though)

Anyone have any advice on the Lucario vs Charizard MU.
It's been giving me a lot of trouble lately.



One more thing, apparently fighting Ivysaur vs Lucario isn't a good idea, but Lucario has never given me any trouble when playing Ivysaur. If anything, the MU feels pretty even. The only time Lucario has ever given me trouble is if I get impatient, or try to go aggressive close the gap.



Btw, they seem to have some beef with you Reflex lol.
Whats up with that? You owe them money?

Spoiler

Probably salty because your squirtle 3 stocked em' eh? ^_^

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Why would anyone have beef with me? The only Lucarios I recall beating up are Steam and Trela (but only in Doubles).

 

[Bomber7]

That might have been me. I think I recall trolling them for some time as well as beating their whole board in legit wifi matches.... or something like that. I thought they were over that. It happened years ago. ._.

 

[Rizen]

Why would anyone have beef with me? The only Lucarios I recall beating up are Steam and Trela (but only in Doubles).

You're a real steam cleaner!

/Steam puns are waaay over used.

 

[Killanator90]

What does everyone think of the Toon link MU. I know you should start with squirtle, but is ivy and zard good against toon link?

 

[Bomber7]

Charizard gets walled so hard by projectiles. Don't bother with him unless it's for stalling tactics.

Ivysaur isn't so bad, at least we can fight back some with razor leaf. I wouldn't recommend starting with her.

It's still very much in TL's favor, though I your best bet would be starting with squirtle, then switching to Ivysaur for the KO. Squirtle is a light character and TL has the ability to KO Squirtle early, like with utilt, which is one of his most common KO moves.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Ivysaur gets camped too hard to consider using in a realistic setting. Charizard can at least destroy arrows and boomerang via F-Air pretty easily, but, Toon Link combos Charizard pretty easily, and it's hard for Charizard to get close enough to do substantial damage.

 

[T-block]

ivy cancels projectiles with b-air iirc

regardless, this is a matchup where i rely a lot on squirtle =x

 

[TheReflexWonder]

ivy cancels projectiles with b-air iirc

Yes, but, that doesn't fix the fact that Toon Link can jump around with impunity against Ivysaur.

 

[Rizen]

I have no ieda whar the TL/PT MU is like. It sounds bad. What's the MU ratio?
(lol, I usally endit my posts for spelling etc, but this is how I type when I'm tired)
(by 'edit' I mean check)

 

[Bomber7]

Hey Reflex, how much TL experience do you have? I really think Ivy has the tools to be a mediocre choice to fight TL, especially with razor leaf to possible disrupt TL's ability to wall Ivy. I don't think you use razor leaf as much as me, but I was just curious to see what you thought about it all. I know Ivy isn't a good choice to start but does have more of a purpose fighting TL than Charizard does.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Since APEX, I've played shadow1pj twice and MJG three times (one set was a Doubles set against MJG AND shadow1pj).

Razor Leaf doesn't do anything to Toon Link because he camps you by jumping over you with a bomb whenever he wants to get on the other side of the stage. It's not about walling, it's about running away as Toon Link. Ivysaur doesn't have the speed or the safety to threaten Toon Link in that situation. Charizard struggles against projectiles and juggling more, but at least he is fast enough to potentially threaten Ivysaur.

 

[Bomber7]

Is this assuming we are going to use RL while grounded?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

It's assuming you're going to use Razor Leaf at all. Either way, he cancels it with any of his tilts, boomerang, or Dash Attack.

 

[T-block]

edit: nvm ^^

 

[Bomber7]

Dash attack would leave him open for an attack, so I couldn't see a TL using it really much at all (depending on your distance from him), boomerang is more plausible, but even if it's canceled out, either the boomerang is canceled out too or knocked away (I'm pretty sure both RL and the boomerang are canceled out). The tilts, I question why a TL would use it just for a razor leaf. As far as tilts being used, I could see ftilt being used, but that is still somewhat of a slow attack.

Most TLs are going to run away but leave a trail of projectiles in their wake. I many of the top TLs are going to jump/hop in the air which I'd think would leave a small window of opportunity for something even if it was with a razorleaf.

Also, canceling out his projectiles isn't really a bad thing, it beats getting hit by them, but we also have the problem that TL can throw out three times the amount projectiles we can at 2-3 times the rate, so it does pose a problem.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Dash attack would leave him open for an attack, so I couldn't see a TL using it really much at all (depending on your distance from him), boomerang is more plausible, but even if it's canceled out, either the boomerang is canceled out too or knocked away (I'm pretty sure both RL and the boomerang are canceled out). The tilts, I question why a TL would use it just for a razor leaf. As far as tilts being used, I could see ftilt being used, but that is still somewhat of a slow attack.

Most TLs are going to run away but leave a trail of projectiles in their wake. I many of the top TLs are going to jump/hop in the air which I'd think would leave a small window of opportunity for something even if it was with a razorleaf.

Also, canceling out his projectiles isn't really a bad thing, it beats getting hit by them, but we also have the problem that TL can throw out three times the amount projectiles we can at 2-3 times the rate, so it does pose a problem.

Dash Attack doesn't leave him open to an attack; a clanking move cancels in ~7 frames. Ivysaur won't be able to catch up with it unless Toon Link has a great deal of time to do whatever he wants in advance. Plus, if he's relatively close, he can choose to shorthop over it and either airdodge -> Z-Air or swing with a N-Air. Either way, Ivysaur cannot compete with those options reliably.

It's not worth talking about "most Toon Links." If you have the information to beat a good Toon Link, you have more than enough information to beat the ones who don't use his options as well.

Ivysaur straight-up gets destroyed by opponents who can space safely with shorthop aerials without much commitment. Ivysaur's options to hit people at a 45-degree angle are way too slow to get around that reliably. She has no good option to catch a jumping Toon Link like that.

 

[Rizen]

@ Reflex, what's the -5 gold stars mean?

Can TL (or Link) throw bombs down through bullet seed's hitbubbles?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

@ Reflex, what's the -5 gold stars mean?

Can TL (or Link) throw bombs down through bullet seed's hitbubbles?

Inside joke in the Project M Back Room--Every time I do something they don't like, I get a negative gold star.

Pretty sure that Bullet Seed stream destroys a bomb thrown straight down into it before Ivysaur gets hit by it, but, if you find yourself in such a situation, he's probably going to fastfall into murdering you, and he can just throw it down right next to you instead.

 

[Bomber7]

Dash Attack doesn't leave him open to an attack; a clanking move cancels in ~7 frames. Ivysaur won't be able to catch up with it unless Toon Link has a great deal of time to do whatever he wants in advance. Plus, if he's relatively close, he can choose to shorthop over it and either airdodge -> Z-Air or swing with a N-Air. Either way, Ivysaur cannot compete with those options reliably.

It's not worth talking about "most Toon Links." If you have the information to beat a good Toon Link, you have more than enough information to beat the ones who don't use his options as well.

Ivysaur straight-up gets destroyed by opponents who can space safely with shorthop aerials without much commitment. Ivysaur's options to hit people at a 45-degree angle are way too slow to get around that reliably. She has no good option to catch a jumping Toon Link like that.

Then please enlighten me on the Toon Link MU so I better know what I'm talking about in the future.

 

[Rizen]

TL's ground game is actually a tiny bit slower than Link's, which is saying something. He can spam from the air so well that TL will probably stick to his air game except for Zair>land>follow up and a few KO or punish setups. Char and Squirt can probably Shield grab TL's landings with their nice range. TLs often habitually Zair to cover landings, I've noticed.
Arrows and boomerang will be canceled by most hitbubbles and are better to get rid of than dodge. Bombs are the big issue; they can be caught with aerial moves though. Chasing TL is a pain but he gains fight momentum once he's established his spamming so it's important to pressure him as much as is smart/safe.

I'd guess Squirt/Char/Ivy are best vs TL in that order but he seems hard to approach and a bad MU.