Beyond the Chozo Guide: Seven Ways to Take Your Samus to the Next Level**

[DelxDoom]

eh

the fact that brawl revolves around the shield
means that we should grab more (but not to the point where we get punished for every grab attempt)
and jump less (and shield moar)
Samus has lame out of shield options (compared to snake)

): basically

 

[Xyro77]

eh

the fact that brawl revolves around the shield
means that we should grab more (but not to the point where we get punished for every grab attempt)
and jump less (and shield moar)
Samus has lame out of shield options (compared to snake)

): basically

thats 100% different than i think.

SInce you said samus has bad OOS options, why did u say shield more?
Since samus cant really do anything GOOD out of grabs why grab more?
Since her grab is slow, this means we can get punished alot easier than most so why grab more?
Jump less? This means less missles/less zair and less mind games(empty short hops)

 

[NO-IDea]

its called common sense, moron.



this has nothing to do with what i was saying, poop face.



well when you get SLIGHTLY decent in this game, we can talk. Untill then, please eat rat poison.

A) If it's called common sense, why do I see Samus mains use their worst options against MK and then complain that they got punished?

B) You were saying zoning is unnecessary because Power Shielding is an effective approach against Samus. I merely state that Power Shielding can be punished, therefore they will opt for different approaches and zoning does become important.

C) ... lol? Have you seen me play? No. And don't bring up a wi-fi challenge, I suck at wif-fi and don't plan on becoming amazing at it. Input lag makes a game fail online. Period.

Creative insults tho.

 

[Xyro77]

A) If it's called common sense, why do I see Samus mains use their worst options against MK and then complain that they got punished?

B) You were saying zoning is unnecessary because Power Shielding is an effective approach against Samus. I merely state that Power Shielding can be punished, therefore they will opt for different approaches and zoning does become important.

C) ... lol? Have you seen me play? No. And don't bring up a wi-fi challenge, I suck at wif-fi and don't plan on becoming amazing at it. Input lag makes a game fail online. Period.

Creative insults tho.

A...maybe cause you dont realize there is no WORST option on metaknight. Every move you make will get you punished unless you play trash metas.

B....Zoning WILL not help you if the foe can powershield well. Its not like you could run a way if they got close. Once the foe learns to powershield, your projectiles just lost thier impact by at least 80%.

C.......I have not seen you play and im afraid to even watch, it may hurt my eyes when i see how bad you are.

 

[NO-IDea]

A) There is always a best option. Constantly spamming d-air is not one of them.

B) Zoning can help, but arguing with you here is a moot point.

C) Meh, your loss if you don't want to, although your critique would be appreciated. Gonna post up some vids soon.

 

[Xyro77]

A) There is always a best option. Constantly spamming d-air is not one of them.

B) Zoning can help, but arguing with you here is a moot point.

C) Meh, your loss if you don't want to, although your critique would be appreciated. Gonna post up some vids soon.

A.........you obviously play trashy metas.

B..........yea give up. you cant win.


C..........if you pu tup vids, please let it be against good people. no level 5s

 

[NO-IDea]

A)..... you spammed d-air on M2K's meta dude. After the first 2 on PS1, nearly all the rest got punished. There is always a best option. This is irrefutable. However, it might only be seen after the match is over.

B)..... I know I can't win. You're stubborn.

C)..... Of course.

 

[Xyro77]

A)..... you spammed d-air on M2K's meta dude. After the first 2 on PS1, nearly all the rest got punished. There is always a best option. This is irrefutable. However, it might only be seen after the match is over.

B)..... I know I can't win. You're stubborn.

C)..... Of course.

A........again. when you get good. come back and talk.

B............accepting you cant win is the first step. your doing well

C............im hungry

 

[n00b]

DEFG,HIJKLMNOP,QRS,TUV,WXYROSGAYlol

 

[NO-IDea]

DEFG,HIJKLMNOP,QRS,TUV,WXYROSGAYlol

n00b takes gold for making an insult that's creative and relevant! Take notes, Xyro.

 

[Xyro77]

DEFG,HIJKLMNOP,QRS,TUV,WXYROSGAYlol

*cannot decode this ancient text*

 

[demonictoonlink]

I can't tell...Is Xyro joking, or is he really this big of a douche bag?

 

[Xyro77]

I can't tell...Is Xyro joking, or is he really this big of a douche bag?

i really am that big of a........................AWESOME GUY!

 

[NO-IDea]

A bit of both, actually. But we're getting off topic of this thread.

 

[tha_carter]

Just a reminder; we have a social thread for senseless bickering. Please keep it out of what could be a very productive thread. Thanks.

NEW TOPIC HAS BEEN CHOSEN AND THE ORIGINAL POST IS UPDATED

Thanks to everyone that helped on the past topic, and helped with new topic suggestions.

EDIT:
One suggestion i have to help you out with understanding and being helpful with this new topic is to do a couple matched WITHOUT using missiles, charged shot or z-air. You'll notice ALOT more, and most likely develope new approaches with Samus. Try it out.

 

[-Soldier-]

Nothing I can really add. An awful lot of AT's and such, but since Samus has low priority and a hard time killing, I suppose they are all useful.

Going to practice, and stuff.

Hey Carter, represent that Samus more. I got 3-stocked by Culex's Samus, but I'm going to come back and **** him lol.

Next time.

 

[DelxDoom]

thats 100% different than i think.

SInce you said samus has bad OOS options, why did u say shield more?
Since samus cant really do anything GOOD out of grabs why grab more?
Since her grab is slow, this means we can get punished alot easier than most so why grab more?
Jump less? This means less missles/less zair and less mind games(empty short hops)

that's why samus is kinda meh atm.

but we should grab more if the opponent shields a lot... you could try shield pressure instead I guess.

also, the range of the grab is what we should abuse. dash attack/dash grab/dash shield mixups ;]

shield is still the most powerful thing in Brawl. it still nets counter dsmashes.
jumping too much is mathematically bad since you relinquish shielding so... you can get hit more easily.

I'm not downplaying the usefulness of zair and missiles at range, but aerials are just weaker in this game than melee. Metaknight is the largest exception because he can harass the shield while constantly jumping away so as to avoid getting punished out of shield with those constant rising dairs, otherwise, most people land after doing an aerial and get punished.

my idea of samus is a lot different than some other conceptions of samus play here though ;o

Spoiler

sadhkglskdgh;kfg

 

[Cherry64]

I lol'd pretty hard here. and I told you you'd get flamed for that.

on topic: I find that shield dashing Greatly improves samus' Close range game. like hugely buffed.
that may just be me though, i learned it from n00b. thus eternally grateful <3

on the topic we all are discussion, the only Shield grab samus actually has is when you do not perfect shield a smash.
you get sent back but the range of your grab will get them on all chars from when i've tried it. someone back me up on this?

 

[Rohins]

you get sent back but the range of your grab will get them on all chars from when i've tried it. someone back me up on this?

Shield grab vs MK's rising fair on your shield is guaranteed. Mostly poorly spaced aerials since you can buffer the grab to come out before they land, it grabs them as they land.

I can't think of too many moves off hand but Samus' dtilt is a guaranteed shield grab.

 

[n00b]

yo seriously I'm not patient enough to set up projectile/zair traps so I run around like a maniac with shield dashes and empty sh flips and stuff until I see an opening.

My favorite thing to do when running is either dash attack, shield cancel, or pivot grab.
Iono, I just like dash attacking someone to jab cancels to fsmash, then running at them again, only to have them shield, thinking I'll dash attack to give them a free shield grab.. then just run past them and pivot grab.

I wish I could contribute more to this but I really don't know how to describe how to fight up close.. but basically, stay highly agile and mobile until you see openings... I guess sorta like CF camping dash dance in Melee til the opponent messes up and then you can nair/grab and follow up. :\

 

[NO-IDea]

Some options for melee combat...

Shielding obviously. Use it to predict and punish. When shield grab isn't guaranteed (you should be able to measure this in a second whether or not a shield grab can land) f-tilt works. D-smash is an iffy Oos option: long range but expect to get punished if they perfect shield it.

As for approaching (because camping isn't the only thing Samus can do,) dash attack and dash grab/pivot grab works well on the ground.

Aerial option include b-air to u-air ---> u-tilt/u-smash/f-smash/jab combo (the final option will depend on how both you and he land.) Or, b-air to n-air, followed up again with many options. YES, YOU CAN PERFORM THESE AERIALS IN ONE SHORT HOP. Therefore, rather than attempt a sh ff u-air (therefore approaching from diagonally where they can f-air you,) it'd be safer to attempt a b-air followed by an u-air (or n-air. Again, it will depend on where you land after the b-air: in front of them or behind them. If behind them, may want to try a n-air as it'll auto-cancel and you can follow up easily.)

For spacing options, Samus has good aerial options as well. A backwards sh z-air or f-air works well (depending on the size of the opponent, you may want to make the hop for the f-air higher to avoid punishment. D3 comes to mind. You can have the last hit of f-airs hitbox touch D3 without getting grabbed.) Retreating into a pivot grab can work at times too, although use this on occasion.

On a side note, because Samus's backwards sh is a somersault animation, this can easily be used as a mind game. You can sh backwards and DI right into a f-air, z-air or n-air or be aggressive and auto-rar into the combos stated above.

Overall, if you're going to have do deal with the enemy up close, make sure you space yourself correctly so you're away from a possible grab. I cannot stress how important that is. With such spacing, shield becomes a powerful tool and that mid-range distance is where you can still excel with Samus's long hitboxes. If you do happen to get too close, I would seriously recommend just retreating asap (even if it means rolling away. -gasp-)

EDIT: I'd like to mention nearly all of Samus's aerial options become less effective or simply null and void (NOID XD) against short characters. Retreating f-air becomes more punishable and you won't have enough time to input both a b-air and u-air/n-air when approaching. But, short characters have short grab ranges as well, so use to your advantage.

For example, against MK, space yourself far enough from a grab but close enough for a his f-tilt and sh f-air (both of which you can punish.) Watch out for his d-tilt and don't forget to use yours. (Worry less about refreshing and more about not getting tripped into a grab by MK.)

 

[Rhyme]

For up-close fighting I usually like Ftilt, Dsmash, Uair and Fair. Ftilt has more range than most opponents expect. It's a relatively quick option that allows you to punish OoS quite reliably and resets your spacing pretty nicely. Dsmash has a hitbox behind Samus. I find that plenty of players seem to think that this is a bad place for Samus and I try to use this to my advantage for some nice punishment. Also, for characters like Marth/Snake with linear recovery, you get those guaranteed two frames of landing lag to hit with a lingering attack such as grab/Dsmash/homing missile/uncharged B. It's a positive for Samus in the end. Uair and Fair are pretty self-explanatory. Both have lingering hitboxes which makes them difficult to powershield. Both also cancel nicely for damage/kill setups.

DEFG,HIJKLMNOP,QRS,TUV,WXYROSGAYlol

I LOLed. Nicely done.

C) Meh, your loss if you don't want to, although your critique would be appreciated. Gonna post up some vids soon.

I'd be interested to see what you have.

You'll notice ALOT more, and most likely develope new approaches with Samus. Try it out.

I'll make a point of trying this out the next time I get a chance to Smash (probably this weekend as I usually only play on weekends).

Culex's Samus

Who? >.>

YES, YOU CAN PERFORM THESE AERIALS IN ONE SHORT HOP.

You can have the last hit of f-airs hitbox touch D3 without getting grabbed.)

I would seriously recommend just retreating asap (even if it means rolling away.

But, short characters have short grab ranges as well, so use to your advantage.

I said something about this a while back, but then I couldn't figure out how it worked so I disregarded it. I've got some solid testing down now, though, and I can agree with you. When Samus lands a majority of her aerials (I don't believe this is true for Fair), the extra freeze frames allow her to do more than what is normally possible. For example, if you SH to instant Nair and the stronger hitbox hits your opponent then you'll have enough frames in the air for a second Nair or even a short-Zair. If the Nair misses then you wouldn't have time to do any other aerial (or Zair) before landing. Being able to throw out so many aerials is great for escaping tight situations. For example, I use SHNair (as described above) as an OoS option when my opponent is being aggressive. Few characters have a punishment for being hit with SHNair that beats out my follow-up air-dodge/Zair/uncharged B so they learn to back off.

This is a myth. It's not possible for D3 to shieldgrab Samus' Fair if she spaces it correctly, but it is possible for D3 to grab Samus' properly spaced Fair. If D3 drops shield and takes a small step forward then he can beat out all of your options (except possibly upB, but you'd eat Dsmash/Utilt for this so I wouldn't on 90% of stages).

I use rolling often enough, but rarely ever to retreat. I prefer SHairdodge because then my opponent still knows that I have the Zair option at my disposal.

I'm not convinced that short characters have short grab ranges. I don't know the specifics, but Jiggs and Kirby in particular seem to be able to grab many things that most other characters cannot. Whatever their actual grab range is, their "effective grab range" is great enough to make the statement somewhat inaccurate. Then there's characters like MK who can dash grab so effectively that this matchup is really uneffected by their short grab range. Another note on short characters...SH retreating Dair has a hitbox that covers basically their entire body beneath Samus. Most won't rush into that which allows you to create a bit of breathing room. Obviously this shouldn't be used as your only option, but it's good to use to keep your opponent guessing. It's also good for characters who like to roll behind Samus while boxing because you end up on the ground behind them (a bad zone for quite a number of boxers).

 

[IsmaR]

So tempted to say tl;dr, but then I remembered you are one of the smart ones. gj.

Aside from what you mentioned, I like throwing in Utilts and Falling Uair > Usmash. And the occasional Bair, for mindgames and giggles.

 

[Cherry64]

I've recently taken to using b airs more out of SH's, dunno why I never did before.
Utitl still rocks. however slower it is from melee lol

More to the shield grabbing thing though.
This will be character specific.
Pikachu's Thunder, if it hits him will always be shield grabbed. his side smash for sure.
Lucario's D smash and Side Smash.

 

[Rhyme]

So tempted to say tl;dr, but then I remembered you are one of the smart ones. gj.

Aside from what you mentioned, I like throwing in Utilts and Falling Uair > Usmash. And the occasional Bair, for mindgames and giggles.

You talking about me or No-Idea? I'm pretty impressed with No-Idea up until now which is why I'm so interested in seeing matches. *cough*

I like Utilt for edgeguarding and the occasional read on an airdodge. It's one of my favorite moves for Samus, there's just not many good opportunities to exploit it. Uair->Usmash is DI dependent, but I still love to abuse it vs fatties. It's sexy. I also love Bair OoS to punish taller characters, though it's rather situational at best.

By the way, new avatar is also sexy. Where did you get it?

 

[IsmaR]

You talking about me or No-Idea? I'm pretty impressed with No-Idea up until now which is why I'm so interested in seeing matches. *cough*

I like Utilt for edgeguarding and the occasional read on an airdodge. It's one of my favorite moves for Samus, there's just not many good opportunities to exploit it. Uair->Usmash is DI dependent, but I still love to abuse it vs fatties. It's sexy. I also love Bair OoS to punish taller characters, though it's rather situational at best.

By the way, new avatar is also sexy. Where did you get it?

Yes, you. NOID's cool, though, because of his name. And YES. SOMEONE FINALLY GETS IT. Or at least there is someone I agree with now.

More on-topic: I think it's good to throw in some bombs from time to time. They help with spacing, mindgames, and are good for setting up other moves. Bomb > Grab, F-smash, Jab, etc. My own most used Melee move is probably D-air.

And this old thing? Made it myself forever ago. First somewhat-decent thing I made.

 

[Rhyme]

Say it either way. It means the same thing.

Bombs are fun. People don't know what they do and decide that their safe holding their shield. So I grab them. Next, they usually try rushing me. That's when I SH retreating Dair to catch their attempt off-guard. I suppose pivot grabbing would work, but I don't like it for two reasons. Grab is riskier to attempt because it only works on grounded opponents. The Dair also has better follow-ups than grab in most cases (not on Wario ^^ ).

Heh, fine. Your new avatar is "somewhat-decent"-looking.

 

[Cherry64]

Yes, you. NOID's cool, though, because of his name. And YES. SOMEONE FINALLY GETS IT. Or at least there is someone I agree with now.

More on-topic: I think it's good to throw in some bombs from time to time. They help with spacing, mindgames, and are good for setting up other moves. Bomb > Grab, F-smash, Jab, etc. My own most used Melee move is probably D-air.

And this old thing? Made it myself forever ago. First somewhat-decent thing I made.

I have to completely agree with you regarding the bombs. I'll use them as a mind game or as something that will pop up an opponents shield, VERY rarely will I use a bomb on the ground though, most jut for maneuvering in the air.

and yes, NOID's cool. We played and I killed him Way too much with U tilt though, Hopefully he fins it more useful now.

if that made it seem like I creamed him every time then that is the wrong idea, it was very even matches and victories

 

[tha_carter]

Who? >.>

Culex is my doubles partner.

When Samus lands a majority of her aerials (I don't believe this is true for Fair), the extra freeze frames allow her to do more than what is normally possible. For example, if you SH to instant Nair and the stronger hitbox hits your opponent then you'll have enough frames in the air for a second Nair or even a short-Zair. If the Nair misses then you wouldn't have time to do any other aerial (or Zair) before landing.

Just to de-bunk this myth; you can SH double Nair with hitting your opponent.

Hitlag just makes it easier to buffer the second nair/Z-air.


Remember to try and answer some of the orginal posts question!

Grabs setups, legit shield grabs, best use for each throw?
What to do against small characters who get down and dirty (play aggressively)?
Setups for kill moves; Dtilt, fsmash, bair, Dair?
Out of shield options?
Longest range attacks? Disjointed moves and their uses?

One OoS option ive been testing out lately is Shorthopped Bomb. Jumping out of shield and immediately dropping a bomb and fading backwards. If you can cancel the landing lag by holding down, you can quickly do any smash or d-tilt. I usually do with against opponent that like to approach with shield dashing. They'd usually dash into the bombs hitbox (which has good shield stun and eats up alot of shield) and id be able to poke threw thier shield as a result.

Its a good mixup because, rolling backwards or SH Air Dodge>Zair while fading back can become predictable and punishable.

 

[NO-IDea]

I have to completely agree with you regarding the bombs. I'll use them as a mind game or as something that will pop up an opponents shield, VERY rarely will I use a bomb on the ground though, most jut for maneuvering in the air.

and yes, NOID's cool. We played and I killed him Way too much with U tilt though, Hopefully he fins it more useful now.

if that made it seem like I creamed him every time then that is the wrong idea, it was very even matches and victories

I will admit the u-tilt pwnt me several times XD. Although at the same time I saw it coming and still got hit because I didn't spam L fast enough to air dodge =/. Never did get used to the input lag. Although I do use u-tilt a tad bit more against opponents on platforms thanks to you.

But the fact that we were sandbagging each other at times is a testament as to how much I hate wifi ^^. There's a tourney tomorrow (HAT's tourney.) Someone's bound to have a hacked wii there and I'll get some vids soon.

 

[Cherry64]

Yeah wi-fi is pretty ****ty for that. I'm glad you learned something from me :D

I did this really cool/neat thing yesterday. I ran at someone and did a dash attack, they put up their shield to shield grab me, but I did the dash attack with C stick down, and as Dryn would say, i did it "late", thus I knocked them off the stage, however the neat thing was because i used c stick Down, I buffered a spike as I fell off the ledge too. I have done this twice more and I think it will always hit.

New AT perhaps :D

 

[Rhyme]

Culex is my doubles partner.


Just to de-bunk this myth; you can SH double Nair with hitting your opponent.

Hitlag just makes it easier to buffer the second nair/Z-air.


Remember to try and answer some of the orginal posts question!

Aah, alright.

Reeally? I could have sworn that it worked, but then I was unable to reproduce my results for months. =/ I'll have to test it out in training mode once again.

You really want to lump all of those together as one topic? I'm not sure that they all fit the "fighting in close quarters" motif.

There's a tourney tomorrow (HAT's tourney.)

Brawltimore!! : D That house is mad chill. True story. Can you please tell Hat, Turbo, DK Smash and, if he's there, Chia-Tree (Betree) that Rhyme says hi?

 

[tha_carter]

Really? Nobody has anything else to add? lol

Everyone NEEDS their spam in order to be a successful Samus?

 

[IsmaR]

Heh, fine. Your new avatar is "somewhat-decent"-looking.

I calls 'em as I see 'em. lol that lots of people are commenting on it now, though.

I did this really cool/neat thing yesterday. I ran at someone and did a dash attack, they put up their shield to shield grab me, but I did the dash attack with C stick down, and as Dryn would say, i did it "late", thus I knocked them off the stage, however the neat thing was because i used c stick Down, I buffered a spike as I fell off the ledge too. I have done this twice more and I think it will always hit.

New AT perhaps :D

I've done this a lot of times, but by just doing D-air as I dash near the edge. Not so much a new AT as it just is awesome.

Really? Nobody has anything else to add? lol

Everyone NEEDS their spam in order to be a successful Samus?

Welcome to Smash World Forums.

Ehh, I'm in a decent mood. I'll post some useful stuff and answer the questions in you last post when I get back from class. Summer school ftl.

 

[Throwback]

for me, it's liberal use of f-tilt and stay away from f-smash cos it's so laggy. Keep out of grab range & punish any rolling. I find that against short characters, SH dairs will go over a lot of attacks. Like others have said, stay out of grab range as much as possible.

Oh and before I forget, SHFFZair has been really good since I started using it - if you do it fairly close it can bait & punish rushes

 

[n00b]

for me, it's liberal use of f-tilt and stay away from f-smash cos it's so laggy.

Naw, use fsmash, just "wavedash" backwards first and punish with it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8V2vkGOUKI

2:14

sup

 

[Cherry64]

Naw, use fsmash, just "wavedash" backwards first and punish with it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8V2vkGOUKI

2:14

sup

lol sucks that he was good as The Falco!

yeah dash and then hit F smash behind you almost right away, Pretty useful.

Yeah IsmaR it's pretty sexual.

 

[Xyro77]

If you have no morals or you just simply want to win no matter the tactic.

Ledge stall.

Step 1. Get a % or stock lead
step 2. Grab ledge
step 3. let go of the ledge at a angle
step 4. 2nd jump and UP+B to grab ledge
step 4a. tether
step 5. repeat steps 2-4


if the falco coms out to hit you you ae at an angle so you can easily see the foe trying to attack and u can 2nd jump to spike. You can also 2nd jump to airdodge tether wich allows YOU to hold the edge while they cant. You can also 2nd jump zair them if they choose to hang on the ledge, then UP+B to safety.

 

[Hive]

Direct ledge stalling is banned (at least where I'm at) unless you're trying to avoid charzys flamethrower or something similar. If you just play the ledge, though, its still effective. MK will generally outcamp her there though, and snake and a few others are actually good at ledge guarding her there.

 

[IsmaR]

Yeah IsmaR it's pretty sexual.

Kinky.

for me, it's liberal use of f-tilt and stay away from f-smash cos it's so laggy. Keep out of grab range & punish any rolling. I find that against short characters, SH dairs will go over a lot of attacks. Like others have said, stay out of grab range as much as possible.

F-smash is best save as a mindgame tactic rather than just throwin 'em out there. Recently about 1/5 or so of my kills come from a well-timed F-smash. F-tilt is pretty sexy, though. And yes, staying out of their range is always crucial.

MK will generally outcamp her there though, and snake and a few others are actually good at ledge guarding her there.

Which is why you have to be better at it then them. Amazing ledge game has always been my trump card, enough to turn the tides of matches. But early on, my problem was being dependent on it. Learning how and when to use it is what's important in the end.

Spoiler

The new font, si or no?