Beyond the Chozo Guide: Seven Ways to Take Your Samus to the Next Level**

[Xyro77]

new font is good.

 

[tha_carter]

This will be the last topic. And ill stop discussing it at the end of the week. Just a heads up, in case you wanted to get your opinion out in the most useful thread on the samus boards. =)

Ill give some of my input on this topic tomorrow.

 

[Throwback]

I just want to add that against aggressive characters/players, a good way to think about it is to watch their approach, and time your spacing maneuver/counterattack so that when their approach ends, they are still out of grab range, or at least are in a position where they have to defend rather than attack.

For example, mario (my best-known matchup) approaches with a short-hop. He's got a lot of options on approach, he can fireball, cape, nair, dair, bair, uair, air-dodge. If you block his attack he will end up at your feet and you can't do much at all, especially if he is wary of upBOoSy. If he air-dodges, you are in an even worse position. So your response should come *when he approaches*, rather than when he has already approached. Either SHnair/uair to counter attack, or dash/walk/sh backwards so that you have the frame advantage when mario gets where he's aimed.

 

[RaigothDagon]

I know a situation/setup that works well on wifi and occasionally offline that could lead to your melee kills. If the opponent likes to jump back onto the stage, is close to the ledge, or assumes they will get back on the ledge, jab them. Most people dont have the reaction speed to deal with this (good players will make sure not to die from this) but after that jab cancel you run off the ledge straight into a dair. One that is almost guaranteed though is jab canceling, then running off into an uair. If they used their other jump in panic, you have the advantage and can follow them down with missles, zair, and nair to keep them off the stage.

Small characters who are hard to hit? Stay gounded. If Samus is limited to her melee game, controlling the ground is everything. Make good use of her tilts to keep them out of striking distance. Samus has much range on her tilts, outranging many of the small characters. It seems to me that an aerial by Samus is only useful if the opponent is being defensive and grounded, or aggressive and aerial. That means only jump when a small aggressive child jumps at you.

 

[tha_carter]

Actually i have an idea for the next topic, lol... so one more till i end all discussion.

As for the current topic.
How many grabs you get can REALLY change certain matchups. And with the slowness of samus' pivot grab/standing grab, you should primarily be using the running grab. Although there are many ways to mindgame your opponent into getting grabbed. My personal favorite vs a opponent who like to shield dash (typically snakes/ikes) is charge your beam as they approach you. As soon as they get close they'll usually shield, thats when you should press Z. You'll immediately go from charging to grabbing; it works relatively well.

Once youve grabbed them, there are no garunteed followups, BUT good choices. At lowest percentages against heavies, you should down throw. The likely result is them airdodging afterwards; you should read and punish this. At high percentages, theres no relieable way to kill with the grab, so use the Up Throw (strongest throw) to rack up damage, and buy yourself time to charge your shot. From around 75% + one up throw can buy you enough time to charge a full beam.

Samus can usually outrange characters with her tilts, so against the characters that play aggressively you can keep them at bay fairly easily. Her F-tilt actually has REALLY good reach, use that as a primary move against characters with shorter reaches. Against characters with high priority, short reaches (pikachu, toon link) you should use dtilt to keep them at bay, because the f-tilt will usually just trade. Against characters that like spamming aerials (mario, luigi, jiggly) you should try U-tilting, or an up-angled F-tilt. They both have really good range and if timed properly can REALLY be a savior for those matchups. Not to mention, the U-tilt has IASA frames, meaning if you miss, you can follow up/protect yourself VERY easily.

For characters that flat out OUT RANGE/ Out prioritize all your melee attacks; you STILL have options. You should be learning to shield dash instead their comfort zone! Once inside, you should be learning to punish out of your shield ANY opportunity you get. You have MANY options out of shield. First, recognize that all samus' smashes, although cause poor knock back, are fairly quick and take off a good %. Shield dropping and d/f smashing can punish ALOT of moves. Down smashing after a shield drop would be 11 frames until it hits, and 12 for a Fsmash! To put that into perspective; one of the "harder" moves to punish is MK's downsmash... which has 13 frames of lag after it hits!

On of the more common ways to punish out of shield when close to an opponent, is UpB out of shield. Which you'll learn can be one of the worst options. Id suggest only using it after whiffed aerial directly about you (mk dair), or on a multihit move that can shield poke your shield (fox's dair). A RARELY used out of shield option is UpSmash. Works the same way as upB. Its actually a really good OoS option against taller characters! Its FIRST hitbox surprisingly can hit a little behind you. Which is why i primarily use it when im shielding an attack that hit my back.

Notice most of my talk has been options WHILE GROUNDED? Thats because staying grounded during melee battles is almost always a better option. It allows you to shield (most powerful thing in the game) and grab (second most powerful).

=) color added for the 'selective reader' convience

 

[RaigothDagon]

Notice most of my talk has been options WHILE GROUNDED? Thats because staying grounded during melee battles is almost always a better option. It allows you to shield (most powerful thing in the game) and grab (second most powerful).

I think if more people realized this, we could start advancing how good Samus is. Mostly what I see is that people shy away from melee combat because of the nerfs done to her. But I dont think it is taken into account that almost all characters were nerfed in the transition to Brawl, so while her melee is akward, it is still very valid and useful. More people should learn to fight close with Samus, like n00b does.

 

[Cherry64]

Lol Played n00b on wi-fi, went basically even with him. we didn't spam at all, it was pretty sweet.

 

[Throwback]

Since no-one else has contributed...

zair is a great gimping tool against anyone with 2 jumps. zair their 2nd jump then laugh as they die. Also you HAVE to learn to re-grab the ledge with zair.

Other stuff: last hit of fair has a good angle for gimping, so does down-tilted ftilt.

@Carter: are we including spiking/edgeguarding/edge game in this topic?

 

[Cherry64]

nair gimps foxs fire fox, howeve3r hitting him with d air is the best option.
n air gimps a lot if you hit with the begining frames. U air is gret too, just remember it sends them Backwards generally.

also homing missiles are sexy for jump killers lol fire a few of those bad boys and they will **** the opponents second jump.

 

[Rhyme]

Spoiler

The new font, si or no?

Si. ((I still highlight what you type in order to read it.))

the most useful thread on the samus boards. =)

'Nuff said.

From around 75% + one up throw can buy you enough time to charge a full beam.

Against characters that like spamming aerials (mario, luigi, jiggly) you should try U-tilting,

Down smashing after a shield drop would be 11 frames until it hits

I also get quick bursts in between tippered Zairs. My opponent expects me to persue afterward, so the mindgame just gives me extra frames to myself and the B button.

Agreed. I love the Utilt.

That is incredible. I did not know this. >.>

Ooh, and I accidentally deleted it...successful grabbing greatly changes the D3, Kirby and MK matches IMO. Just learn to do it correctly because it's deadly when you miss. =/

nair gimps foxs fire fox

Nair gimps EVERYONE. It's one of my favorite edgeguarding options. Nair->just about anything you want.

 

[IsmaR]

Not much to add I suppose. N-air ***** just about everyone when used correctly. I gimp way more often than I used to since I started incorparating it(and all around killing more, SHFFN-air>Kill move = <3) and it ***** any character with a potentially bad recovery. Out-prioritizes some like Bowser's as well. On top of that, it's great for setting up D-air.

Bombs also are tremendously helpful to gimping in my opinion. I gimped a Fox player with Bomb off the edge, last hit of F-air returning to stage, D-air, edgegrab. All from 0%, and I have the replay recorded. I'll get on that. On top of that, they are useful for mindgames, setting up spikes, slowing your descent in case of danger, etc. I've been looking for a use for this tech I do with Bombs as well. Run straight off the edge, do a Bomb immediately, and you fall quickly down while doing the bomb animation and dropping one right under the ledge.

Aside from those, the obvious options are Z-air(really ****s up people like Falco and Marth, as does N-air), Charge Shots, U-tilt, D-air and F-air. I pulled off a last hit F-air > D-air once, actually.

 

[Cherry64]

LOL thanks for fixin my spelling, also yeah I know haha I use it a lot. However now I need to re-learn spiking, I've totally became ****ty with it

 

[n00b]

sometimes I just run off and uair opponents with bad horizontal recovery like marth.. it sends them at a really weird *** angle.

 

[tha_carter]

@Throwback
Definitely those would be useful to mention. Check the OP for the types of questions we'd want to be answered. And i never thought of using Fair to put the opposition to be gimped. But i tried it; and it works... almost like a semi spike. Good stuff!


How about jumping off and timing our Up B for recoveries it can out prioritize? It can stage spike rather well, should that be used in any particular matchup?



OFF TOPIC:
I chose this topic because i was speaking to some of the top playing ROBs, who have similar killing problems. Actually, Samus has a better average killing percentage than ROB! But still, ROB is high tier. They said its because they put alot more focus on learning how to gimp opponents recoveries. Im just exploring the thought of low percentage kills, like they do. And seeing if we can change around some matchups; like they have.

 

[IsmaR]

I've played my fair share of decent R.O.B.s, offline and online. They seem to me to have a slightly easier time killing due to N/B-air, and their F-air. On top of that, it's tricky to gimp a R.O.B. himself due to his U-air and vastly superior recovery. One in particular I played a while back I used to be able to handle no problem, but he changed his style to keep me off stage and/or gimp me more often, and I have way more trouble. I had to make my style slightly similar(still a Melee-***** though) to about even it back up. Somehow our games never turn into gimp fights, lol

 

[Throwback]

@ Carter, ok but perhaps Samus' from-the-ledge game should be a separate topic because it's reasonably in-depth?

Anyway in terms of spiking/ledgeguarding, using the bomb throw/spider bomb is the perfect way to set up for a spike. It's not hard, it leads to a kill ~90% of the time and works on the majority of the cast (including marth, G&W, ROB). I'm also going to see if it's possible to ledge-hop a bomb so that the bomb falls off-stage but samus can morph-ball back onto stage. I imagine you can but I haven't checked yet.

Other useful spiking tips - try to spike in a spot where the character's upB won't reach the ledge. This means going really far out. Also A spike set-up that many people fall for - jump out below your opponent then 2nd jump to dair.

 

[RaigothDagon]

70 % of my gimps all involve uair. I think I only use dair as a gimp 5 % of the time. Uair is a very good gimp
because it stage spikes on certain stages, and can be used at very low percentages. I think I can recall gimping
a Bowser at about 40 % using uair to stage spike.

For me, I think the only time that I use dair to spike is in combination with a bomb. If you want to know more
specifically about what I mean, you can look at some of Rohins' videos, he gives credit to me for the bomb gimp
that I showed him in one of them.

 

[Rhyme]

How about jumping off and timing our Up B for recoveries it can out prioritize? It can stage spike rather well, should that be used in any particular matchup?

You're right about ROB. I've been noticing that the people who have trouble with this character often have trouble avoiding Bair and Nair as kill moves.

I'm not sure that the upB strategy works because of how Samus' upB hitbox comes out. I used to try gimping MKs by upBing through their upB/overB and then Uairing them into the side of the level during their shocked response. The reason this worked is because MKs wouldn't DI the upB, which would leave them motionless just below the edge once I sweetspotted. The only way I could forsee getting a stage-spike out of upB is if the MK DIed into the stage for some unknown reason.

 

[NO-IDea]

Everyone's pretty much covered most of what needs to be known about Samus's gimping and off-ledge game.

Just a reminder though, if running off the stage for n-air/d-air/z-air isn't the best option because they're too far... sh homing missile(s) followed up with a backwards jump off the stage is usually the second best. With this, you can position yourself very far outwards, both vertically and horizontally since now z-air becomes a recovery option instead of a gimping option. You'll be able to use u-air (usually sends them behind you), b-air and, more importantly, use d-air further out horizontally. If they're forced to choose to either stay in the air and get hit by the d-air or use their up+b to grab the edge, jumping backwards give you both the ability to edge-hog and threaten to spike off-ledge as well.

If they're not forced to choose these options, it's probably because they can recover back onto the stage without the edge... and if they're way above the edge of the stage... you can forget about gimping and charge up and reset your spacing instead.

 

[tha_carter]

Lol, this topic is NOWHERE near 'pretty much covered'

What moves does samus have to interupt (character specific) the opponents recovery? (ie samus' Dair can intercept MK's Up B recovery, and Samus' Uncharged/charged shot can interupt fox/falco's side b)
What moves does she have to put your opponent in the position to be gimped?
What matchup is gimping NOT a good option to explore? hasnt even been touched
How can ledgehogging be used the most effectively?

Character specifics would be most helpful, for samus' worse matchups. How can you take advantage of Dedede, snake, MK or G&Ws recovery and gimp them?

Knowing how to put a GOOD snake in a position to be gimp, in particular, can almost double your winning percentage against them.


How can we look to take advantage of THIS... in those particular matchups?

 

[Rhyme]

Even after reading through the OP, I still don't understand how one could force the opponent into that kind of situation. =/ Seems like it could be avoided with relative ease in most cases.

Against D3, holding the ledge is a godsend, and Samus can occupy a ledge for extended periods of time thanks to re-tethering. If D3 cannot vert-sweetspot on a jump then he must use his lag-ful upB. Assuming that you did not jump the gun (wait on the edge until you're sure that the D3 cannot DI back to it after upB), an edgehop->Zair/Fair->Usmash will always get you some nice damage. Nair has the lovely little effect of pushing D3 beneath the stage almost regardless of percentage...most D3's will realize what you're planning and upB (first situation), but if you can get the setup and you're not anticipating potential swallowcide then the gimp isn't a bad option.

For Snakes, I don't have a solid strategy yet. They will jump away from the stage and upB so that they cannot be reached. Or, if they see that I anticipated and went airborn, I'll either miss entirely or eat an aerial. The only way I have of gimping them is rather circumstancial at best...Ftilt angled down will pick them out of their second jump if not sweetspotted perfectly, and from there the follow-up Dair is a guaranteed hit (at low to moderate percentages, which is at least 110 for my average diminished Ftilt) unless Snake decides to avoid [Dair] and kill himself (and that Dair will reliably lead to a kill unless Snake lands in water).

MK and G&W I do not have strategies for. I've messed around with bombs and Fair, but those are usually out-prioritized/miss entirely. G&W can go too low for a reliable Dair and MK will just beat it out with Uair.

Warios are fun to gimp. They think that bike->airdodge will let them avoid all the crap you could throw at them, so all you have to do is wait before attacking. I spike too many Warios out of their airdodge.

Part of why gimping is so difficult to talk about is because there's only so much character-specific nonsense that Samus can pull. Most of how I gimp is by reading or manipulating the player, and that's very difficult to talk about in the general sense of this thread. =/

 

[tha_carter]

Yea, i read through it, and i cant see how id be able to REALLY take advantage of the given link either. But i know it would probably be valuable info to have vs pika, luigi, falco and fox...


GREAT stuff on Dedede. I just want to add that if dedede is EVER forced to recover you should ALWAYS be able to hit him with a fully charged shot if you read him correctly. And if you do hit him before he hits the ground/ledge he wont have his jumps and he'll be forced to recover with the up b again. That being said, ive played some of the better Dedede's, and they have never successfully returned to the level after using up B on me.

Thank god you mentioned eating an aerial against snake, lol. Everyone BLINDLY jumps out hoping for the Dair, but its usually a big risk f he's still above the level. The only time id ever use dair, is if snake is BELOW the level. Ill try out that angled down ftilt. I usually dsmash if im in that position. Since for whatever reason, dsmash can stage spike, which is much more useful.

For wario, i would hope they airdodge of the bike and Uair. Uair is such a move that EVEN if they dodge they cant escape a pending Nair or Bair. Try it. Uair and then intercept the airdodge's cooldown with a nair or bair, its a frame trap that works everytime. Either way, i mostly try to force the wario to use his upb, which doesnt sweetspot. That should mean a charged shot/fsmash everytime.

 

[PK-ow!]

Part of why gimping is so difficult to talk about is because there's only so much character-specific nonsense that Samus can pull. Most of how I gimp is by reading or manipulating the player, and that's very difficult to talk about in the general sense of this thread. =/

Well, what sort of tendencies do you look for? What are you trying to spot? What sort of behaviour do you hope to coax out of someone if you want to gimp them?

What sort of player is prone to the setups that will give you a gimp, and how do you identify this person?


There has to be something to discuss. I remember thinking a while ago that, although my observation skills are improving, I don't know what I'm observing when I see Wario. I was watching YouTube vids and realized I wasn't applying my tools... I was just watching "like a novice" in my former state. So I forced myself to ask specific questions. When does he use his ground attacks? When does he double jump?
Since I was watching this game (not participating in it) I also asked "Is there something that precedes the Samus' (the opponent happened to be Samus) successful attacks, from the Wario?"

In short, I noticed something. I was able to bring some framework to observing the Wario and ... I hope I have good questions to take to the next time I play one.


There is some kind of analysis you are doing, something you can notice, something, at some general level, you can say about when you gimp a player.


*~*~*~
The stage spiking of Dsmash isn't mysterious at all. Its hitbox knocks up and inward, so of course it will stage spike anyone you nab.


Oh, also, I think Marth is a sort of character where gimping "should not be explored". Well umm... that's a bad word since it suggests we shouldn't investigate it, which would be absurd; but I mean I think Samus has better chances if she just assaults him with missiles for damage.

 

[Throwback]

imo marth is very susceptible to bomb-guarding because of the angle of his recovery.

PK-ow!: very good questions to ask and very good piece on ways to think about your opponent.

 

[Rhyme]

The only time id ever use dair, is if snake is BELOW the level. Ill try out that angled down ftilt. I usually dsmash if im in that position. Since for whatever reason, dsmash can stage spike, which is much more useful.

For wario, i would hope they airdodge of the bike and Uair. Uair is such a move that EVEN if they dodge they cant escape a pending Nair or Bair. Try it....Either way, i mostly try to force the wario to use his upb, which doesnt sweetspot.

Even when he's below the level, I find that Snake's are tricker than many people give them credit for. Maybe I'm not positioning myself correctly and that's why it's tricky for me? I tend to favor the region about a SH distance from the edge (so either on the stage or up and a bit away from it). Against people with linear recoveries I feel like this is the most threatening position for Samus to be in. And do you use the second hitbox of Dsmash? First hit has the up-and-away trajectory unless I'm missing something here...

I will have to try that out. Uair should have higher chance of landing than Dair, and I only didn't persue such options because I'd thought that Wario would be too far away for a follow-up. This is definitely going on my list of things to do. I have tried forcing Wario to use his upB, but that usually doesn't happen for reasons unknown. =/

I've been using bombs VERY successfully in legit matches (tourny and MM) against both Zero Suit and Olimar. The basic idea is to drop the bomb at about the time that you know they will tether the edge (think Snake dropping C4 from above and you'll get the general idea for the timing). Assuming you time the bomb correctly, there is a twenty-ish frame window in which the character cannot tether into the edge or they would get hit by the bomb. If you Riagoth canceled the bomb, your Uair (or Dair if you're daring and skilled) can sweep through this window for an auto-hit. I haven't worked out being aggressive enough with this for gimp kills, but at moderate damage (80-100) this seems to work wonders in these two matchups.

Well, what sort of tendencies do you look for? What are you trying to spot? What sort of behaviour do you hope to coax out of someone if you want to gimp them?

What sort of player is prone to the setups that will give you a gimp, and how do you identify this person?

Since I was watching this game (not participating in it) I also asked "Is there something that precedes the Samus' (the opponent happened to be Samus) successful attacks, from the Wario?"

Oh, also, I think Marth is a sort of character where gimping "should not be explored". Well umm... that's a bad word since it suggests we shouldn't investigate it, which would be absurd; but I mean I think Samus has better chances if she just assaults him with missiles for damage.

I'm not sure, to tell you the truth. It would mostly be when the player tends to airdodge through me vs when he would attack me. When he would DI away vs when he would DI towards me (not necessarily after being hit). How he DIs when he's planning on stalling vs recovering high. People usually have little tells and they're, more often than not, unaware what those tells are. Other than that, there would be little things such as how patient the player is on-stage, how conservative they are on the risky vs reckless scale, and when they like to dodge/roll (none of these three play a large part in gimping, just general strategy).

Those are things that you should learn how to watch for mid-match, and MMs are a great way of doing that. Picking up on subtle positioning details and the like is how I get the balls to do things like grab/Usmash D3 (both integral to the matchup IMO). That is also the only way that I could ever get around something like Falco's laser spam.

That trade doesn't go well. I've tried camping good Marths (like Neo, Pierce) and they always deal enough damage to stay in the lead (technically speaking...I do more damage, but not enough to beat the kill percentage gap). That being said, gimping Marth is a necessity to the matchup as far as I'm concerned.

 

[tha_carter]

PK-ow, GREAT questions.

Rhyme, about dsmash; the first hit of dsmash is akward. It CAN pull towards samus. The best example of this is when an opponent shields the first hit and gets pulled into the second hit as well. I attempt this one instead of the back side of dsmash because if you hit it, it will stage spike... but if you dont, it will mean snake is still OFF the stage. As oppose to the back end which would lead to snake being high in the middle of the stage.

As for marth; he CAN be gimped. As long as it the Zair, nothing else is worth it. Maybe the rare occasion where you can shoot a charged shot, but if that misses, it puts you in position to BE gimped.



I wish i had time to address everything! Good, valid points to address.
DO continue though, great stuff.

 

[tha_carter]

FIRST and SECOND POST UPDATED!

 

[-Crews-]

Lol, this topic is NOWHERE near 'pretty much covered'


Character specifics would be most helpful, for samus' worse matchups. How can you take advantage of Dedede, snake, MK or G&Ws recovery and gimp them?

Knowing how to put a GOOD snake in a position to be gimp, in particular, can almost double your winning percentage against them.


How can we look to take advantage of THIS... in those particular matchups?

one way i can sometimes gimp snakes or rather keep them of the stage for long periods of time increasing the chances of a dair or what have you is through smash missiles. if you go real close to the edge of the side they are trying to recover from you can time them alot better than if you were in the middle (duh). now keep in mind that this only works if they are recovering from under the stage and away from the edge not close enough to just sweet spot the edge but snakes recover like that all the time to avoid being gimped so its pretty common. another good thing about this tactic is that it builds some good damage all the while distance edge garuding.

 

[Roxas1988]

Man i actually came innot excpecting much. Truth be told ive learned more than any other thread from reading this. Picked up both samus' as ma main. Feelin pretty good after readin this thread.

 

[Crescens]

samus'

The plural of Samus is Sami, I tell you. SAMI.