Beyond the Chozo Guide: Seven Ways to Take Your Samus to the Next Level**

[n00b]

Uair -> dsmash on shields all day

Bye swf

 

[Cherry64]

Uair -> dsmash on shields all day

Bye swf

whadda bout good ol' Dair for push back. I always thought that if done right you can't get shield grabbed.

 

[PK-ow!]

As an on-again, off-again (and now on-again) Samus user, I must point out that in the discussion so far, it appears that Samus has nothing against an opponent who shields when both are on the ground, in point blank range*.

She can't start an aerial except dair - and even that is slow enough for some characters *cough*MK*cough* to uair/Dragon Punch OoS - she can't use grab, smash missile, or even pivot grab without serious telegraphing of that shield, poking is not safe by assumption ('point blank range'), and absolutely none of her other ground options shield stab or break.

EDIT: *For the purpose of this question, define 'point blank range' to be the range at which Samus can't poke (safely).

dtilt does some damage, yes. But if it's the only thing that does, it's never going to break it. The enemy then shieldgrabs or what have you, and proceeds to keep you busy for long enough to get their shield back.

So, I suppose the question this thread is trying to answer (on this topic) is:

"Your opponent shields. What the &%$# do you do, son?"​

 

[LanceStern]

As an on-again, off-again (and now on-again) Samus user, I must point out that in the discussion so far, it appears that Samus has nothing against an opponent who shields when both are on the ground, in point blank range.

She can't start an aerial except dair - and even that is slow enough for some characters *cough*MK*cough* to uair/Dragon Punch OoS - she can't use grab, smash missile, or even pivot grab without serious telegraphing of that shield, poking is not safe by assumption ('point blank range'), and absolutely none of her other ground options shield stab or break.

dtilt does some damage, yes. But if it's the only thing that does, it's never going to break it. The enemy then shieldgrabs or what have you, and proceeds to keep you busy for long enough to get their shield back.

So, I suppose the question this thread is trying to answer (on this topic) is:

"Your opponent shields. What the &%$# do you do, son?"​

What sucks even more is that her moves don't have much knockback on the opponent either.

I was playing a Kirby today and even though I shielded his down smash, I couldn't do anything to punish it because he would push be so far back with it.

These developers tried EVERYTHING to make Samus low tier.

 

[Cherry64]

What sucks even more is that her moves don't have much knockback on the opponent either.

I was playing a Kirby today and even though I shielded his down smash, I couldn't do anything to punish it because he would push be so far back with it.

These developers tried EVERYTHING to make Samus low tier.

Lance, When you get pushed back that far shield grab them. I know, don't bite my head off her shield Grab sucks but the only use I have for it is to grab when you get pushed too far back. It's very good, I use it a lot, AKA when you normally Shield a smash then you can shield grab it

 

[:mad:]

I'll have to check the frame data on that, but I'm fairly sure it can be spotdodged before you can grab.

A better punish would be Ftilt. Better range than your jab, and faster than a grab. Or Dtilt.

 

[tha_carter]

Perfect PK-ow. That is one of the biggest issues. And most samus' just retreat once their telegraphed option is used and unsuccessful.

NOW; we're getting somewhere.

So then samus boards; How can you attack a shield in that situation and NOT get punished?

 

[PK-ow!]

Perfect PK-ow. That is one of the biggest issues. And most samus' just retreat once their telegraphed option is used and unsuccessful.

Hey thanks.

In my mind, Samus' general response to a shield, if you're at a proper position already, is to retreat. Get back to missile spam; you know, rebuild the brick wall, etc.

But (a) you can't always get away, and (b) some characters, of course, are better for Samus to fight up close.
EDIT: But perhaps most importantly, (c) it wouldn't be logical to never look for the rewards of close-quarters combat (CQC).

NOW; we're getting somewhere.

So then samus boards; How can you attack a shield in that situation and NOT get punished?

So yeah... asking how Samus can attack a shield is one thing... but it's not equivalent to the question of what to do about a shield.

In any case....

What does Dsmash do to shields? I left it out of the other post, somehow >_> .
In particular, what of the hitbox on her backside? It still throws me off a bit how that hitbox knocks people in front of me. Keep thinking I should exploit it somehow but I usually feel threatened and use the broiler or something.

Ooh, and can the dash attack go through a shield like Wolf's Fsmash?

 

[Xyro77]

Uair -> dsmash on shields all day

Bye swf

havnt i been saying this all the time?

 

[Crystanium]

Ooh, and can the dash attack go through a shield like Wolf's Fsmash?

That depends on how you use it. If you use it late, yes. If early, no.

 

[n00b]

At point blank against shield, charge charge shot.

 

[PK-ow!]

That depends on how you use it. If you use it late, yes. If early, no.

...

late in what sense? You mean... when I'm close to the guy? Well, yeah, I wouldn't pass him otherwise.

At point blank against shield, charge charge shot.

...

... that's really good...

 

[Crystanium]

...

late in what sense? You mean... when I'm close to the guy? Well, yeah, I wouldn't pass him otherwise.



...

... that's really good...

I seem to confuse people when I use "late" and "early." Yes, when you're close. I just say "late," because you're delaying the attack.

 

[PK-ow!]

I seem to confuse people when I use "late" and "early." Yes, when you're close. I just say "late," because you're delaying the attack.

It wasn't the direction of the late/early relation, it was for which thing you were using those words as a metaphor.

Like, 'late' in the passage of the game (i.e. damage racking), or late in the maneuvering preceding the use of the move... or late in something else?


Anyway, so... if shield has charge shot for up-close, what about other positions? Like, say, out of range of ftilt, but close enough for some character's dash attacks? Too close to do anything meaningful with zair if the opponent is agile.

 

[n00b]

...

... that's really good...

is this sarcasm?

 

[Xyro77]

At point blank against shield, charge charge shot.

wtf! i taught you that too!

YOU STEAL MY STUFF!

i go to cali ONE time and you and hive take ALL my stuff! YARGH!

 

[PK-ow!]

is this sarcasm?

No.

That's me going to my characteristically extreme effort to put myself into my writing.

In that case, I was illustrating my intimidation at the simplicity of your debate-halting answer on top of the mind-shattering elegance of the solution expressed by it.


. . . Sooooooooooo.....

Nine posts later... shield pressure, guyz. How to do it. Nd moar facts nao, kthx.

 

[tha_carter]

*Sigh*

Any suggestions on the next topic? If there are no better topics; we'll be discussing 'refreshing moves'.

 

[Cherry64]

Carter, do how to get down from people keeping you in the air, certain strats, I swear that's where ALL of our damage comes from. someone knocking us in the air and giving a bit of chase. Unless I'm the only one who has issues with this :s Then refreshing moves would be nice too.

 

[Xyro77]

*Sigh*

Any suggestions on the next topic? If there are no better topics; we'll be discussing 'refreshing moves'.

it takes 9 of any one move to be full exhausted. By hitting a character or breakable object will refresh your moves.

Some things that refresh moves are:

balloon(smashvill)
blocks(green green/yoshi island pipes)
polls(luigi mansion)
statue(castle siege)
waddle dee/doo(ddd)
Chozo chop(press A while grabing a foe)



theres others......

 

[Cherry64]

Does the move have to collide with something to actually refresh others while destroy that one?

 

[Rohins]

Does the move have to collide with something to actually refresh others while destroy that one?

Yes, and hitting shields doesn't help.

Zair doesn't refresh your other moves.

Missiles effect both missiles simultaneously.

All forms of charge blast count the same (ie uncharged blasts make your fully charged blast weaker).

Now...do bombs count for stale moves? I am going to assume they do. If so, do both hits count or are they combined and represent one hit on your stale queue? Regardless...assuming bombs can queue up for stale moves you can now spam your bombs on the levels Xyro mentioned to refresh all your other moves while your enemy is away. Not particularly fast but at least it's a throw away move you don't mind making stale.

Other than that...spam the **** out of your homing missiles / missiles and just keep them stale.

 

[Xyro77]

Yes, and hitting shields doesn't help.

Zair doesn't refresh your other moves.

Missiles effect both missiles simultaneously.

All forms of charge blast count the same (ie uncharged blasts make your fully charged blast weaker).

Now...do bombs count for stale moves? I am going to assume they do. If so, do both hits count or are they combined and represent one hit on your stale queue? Regardless...assuming bombs can queue up for stale moves you can now spam your bombs on the levels Xyro mentioned to refresh all your other moves while your enemy is away. Not particularly fast but at least it's a throw away move you don't mind making stale.

Other than that...spam the **** out of your homing missiles / missiles and just keep them stale.

Fully Refreshed Bombs=8-9%
Fully Exhausted Bombs=4-5%

 

[LanceStern]

I'd like to talk about the person asking about how to get out of the air with Samus.

It kind of falls into line with the discussion on "Zones". Samus has a horrible zone most of the time when the opponent is directly below her. She gets outprioritized a lot

 

[tha_carter]

Wow. After sifting through the unnecessary/sidetracked comments, we had a decent discussion. Good stuff to all the people i qouted, stuff like that is EXACTLY what will help this thread. Especially DelxDoom; GREAT post.

NEW TOPIC IS UP, AND ORIGINAL POST HAS BEEN EDITED
(Good posts, Xyro & Rohins)

If someone could find a more detailed description on how "refreshing moves" works, that'd be great. Maybe a link from tatical discussion?

Especially if someone can explain the BENEFITS of refreshing moves....

EDIT: Lance; Zones will be the next topic.

 

[Hive]

wtf! i taught you that too!

YOU STEAL MY STUFF!

i go to cali ONE time and you and hive take ALL my stuff! YARGH!

lol hey you took zairing through the stage from me too!!

Spoiler

which i totally stole from rohins lol

! taking uair to upb was just payback lol


@discussion- i'm not sure what to say about refreshing moves lol zair doesn't refresh anything and it doesn't degrade either, and i'm pretty sure you have to do other moves like seven times to fully refresh a move? I think the balloon on smashville refreshes a move as well... as well as some other things...
i will usually use her missiles and uc charge shot first to refresh dtilit or another ko move.

 

[Xyro77]

If you go to the utimate samus data base you will find a list of ALL of samus's moves. I also put there damage % when they are refreshed and exhausted. Every time you LAND and attack(f-smash as an example) on an enemy or ballon/block/staue....ect you fill one slot of 9! If you fill the 9 slots with the same move(f-smash), the move will become exhausted and lose ALL properties.

I learned:

Whena move is exhausted it will take on four different properties.

a. It will decrease in knock back.
b. It will decrease in power(damage %).
c. It will decrease in hit stun. (Only after decayed past three.)
d. The trajectory of a decayed move changes. (Not true to every move.)


examples:

Lets say i do Fully Refreshed (uncharged) F-smash, i would do 12-13% damage. Every time i use f-smash(assuming i do NOTHING but use f-smash) i lose knock back and damage % with that move. Only after the 3rd consecutive time(and every time after) does my f-smash lose HITSTUN.

1. Fully Refreshed (uncharged) F-smash= 12-13%
2. F-smash(lose damage % and knock back)=12%
3. F-smash(lose damage % and knock back)=10%
4. F-smash(lose damage % and knock back and hitstun)=10%
5. F-smash(lose damage % and knock back and hitstun)=8%
6. F-smash(lose damage % and knock back and hitstun)=8%
7. F-smash(lose damage % and knock back and hitstun)=7%
8. F-smash(lose damage % and knock back and hitstun)=7%
9. Fully Exhausted (uncharged) F-smash does about 5-6%


if you want to know EXACTLY how weak a move is (refreshed or not), go to the ultimate samus database. i did EVERY SINGLE move samus has.



oh as a bonus treat, i added a video of what i JUST SAID but this time its with the charge shot. Enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3JmHLXDhE4




NEXT SUBJECT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Cherry64]

LOL @ Xyro.
That covered a lot dude but I'm sure there's more to discuss here. Like How to use an exhausted move to combo into something else maybe? Or also what moves have good accuracy that you don't mind abusing ( missile spam FTW) And how many hits the bombs do. and if Each one of those counts towards exhausting the bomb itself.

 

[Xyro77]

LOL @ Xyro.
That covered a lot dude but I'm sure there's more to discuss here. Like How to use an exhausted move to combo into something else maybe? Or also what moves have good accuracy that you don't mind abusing ( missile spam FTW) And how many hits the bombs do. and if Each one of those counts towards exhausting the bomb itself.

samus already has horrible attack hit stun and lag filled jabs and f-tilts. if they are fully exhausted u might get F-SMASHED in the face.

with shiek this is good but with samus it aint.

 

[LanceStern]

samus already has horrible attack hit stun and lag filled jabs and f-tilts. if they are fully exhausted u might get F-SMASHED in the face.

with shiek this is good but with samus it aint.

I have been lurking/talking in a shiek topic on decayed combos, and yea it can be a great thing for Shieks.

What I have a question is, if I hit forward smash say twice, then I've filled 2 of 9 slots... what if I hit them with a down tilt next? Is my forward smash still decaying?

And also, does decayed properties work in training mode? I was sitting there last night and hitting down smash on snake like 10 times and it did the same amount of damage: 15%

 

[Xyro77]

I have been lurking/talking in a shiek topic on decayed combos, and yea it can be a great thing for Shieks.

What I have a question is, if I hit forward smash say twice, then I've filled 2 of 9 slots... what if I hit them with a down tilt next? Is my forward smash still decaying?

And also, does decayed properties work in training mode? I was sitting there last night and hitting down smash on snake like 10 times and it did the same amount of damage: 15%

in training mode your attacks do the MAX amount possible. no exhausting.


and your forward smash will gain nothing untill one of the 2 f-smash slots are gone.

 

[DelxDoom]

actually it does the same amount of damage/knockback each time in training mode
but it is in fact a little weaker than the initial hit in a normal Brawl

 

[tha_carter]

Great post xyro.

So basically, having a "fresh move" means; a move that has not decayed yet. And "ReFreshing" is filling the 9 attack slots up, with different moves so that your move can be fresh again. The importance of this is obviously to keep your kill moves with as much knockback as possible.... which samus desperately needs.

But theres more to discuss; Which moves are the best to use to refresh moves? What benefits does decaying have?

To help us along; what benefits can we find from the knowledge from these threads?
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=215885
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=210557

 

[Xyro77]

for samus you want to keep you KO moves refreshed. IN general most samus mains use d-tilt and d-smash and f-smash and charge shot for KO. And of course alot fo her other moves are usefull but you dont wanna use them because it will refresh the KO move but not the move you are using right then.


if that was confusing, just do this.


and time you are on a level with BREAKABLE things such as blocks/statues/shy guys/polls/ect. Spam jab cancels or nair or up-smash. These 3 moves are moves you almost never use so who cares if they are getting exhausted by breaking all those breakable items......its freshing the KO moves we NEED.

ALSO

What if your on a level that has NO breakable objects......FD? Spam SPam SPAm SPAM homing missles. Or you can do things that are safe like falling u-air to UP+B. Sure, you may only do 5%(missles) or 13%(falling uair to up+b) but it fills those slots up so that your KO moves get off the list.


also, pummeling refreshes as well. SO if you EVER grab some one. Pummel 2 times(after that u risk them breaking out unless they are abve 100%) and then throw. BOOM! you just filled 3 slots. Easy?

 

[Cherry64]

for samus you want to keep you KO moves refreshed. IN general most samus mains use d-tilt and d-smash and f-smash and charge shot for KO. And of course alot fo her other moves are usefull but you dont wanna use them because it will refresh the KO move but not the move you are using right then.


if that was confusing, just do this.


and time you are on a level with BREAKABLE things such as blocks/statues/shy guys/polls/ect. Spam jab cancels or nair or up-smash. These 3 moves are moves you almost never use so who cares if they are getting exhausted by breaking all those breakable items......its freshing the KO moves we NEED.

ALSO

What if your on a level that has NO breakable objects......FD? Spam SPam SPAm SPAM homing missles. Or you can do things that are safe like falling u-air to UP+B. Sure, you may only do 5%(missles) or 13%(falling uair to up+b) but it fills those slots up so that your KO moves get off the list.


also, pummeling refreshes as well. SO if you EVER grab some one. Pummel 2 times(after that u risk them breaking out unless they are abve 100%) and then throw. BOOM! you just filled 3 slots. Easy?

Good post. actually great post. you pretty much covered everything for this topic.
I think for a new topic we could do like Simple mind games. Ways of hitting with moves that you'd normally not use because if they final hit of it doesn't hit your screwed. Lol okay that's just U Smash, but there could be plenty of other ways you guys have of tricking the enemy to fall into a trap?

 

[Xyro77]

I think the topic has been covered. i PERSONALLY think the next topic should be STAGE tricks. How can we(samus players) abuse LEVELS to gain extra % or KO.

just an idea

 

[Cherry64]

Lol err. I think you'd be the only one giving info like that. BTW i used that UpB to ledge then FF while doing an U air thing you did on me in our matches and it works like a charm. It is ******** how good that is.

 

[Xyro77]

Lol err. I think you'd be the only one giving info like that. BTW i used that UpB to ledge then FF while doing an U air thing you did on me in our matches and it works like a charm. It is ******** how good that is.

well im glad u can steal my moves.

 

[Cherry64]

Thanks lol they work rather well. Alas something is terribly off with my samus right now, it's ******** I'm losing to people I should be tie-ing with at Least.

 

[PK-ow!]

I think the topic has been covered. i PERSONALLY think the next topic should be STAGE tricks. How can we(samus players) abuse LEVELS to gain extra % or KO.

just an idea

There's still possibly unexplored benefits to decaying moves.

and [sic] time you are on a level with BREAKABLE things such as blocks/statues/shy guys/polls/ect. Spam jab cancels or nair or up-smash. These 3 moves are moves you almost never use so who cares if they are getting exhausted by breaking all those breakable items......its freshing the KO moves we NEED.

I think, in particular, decaying UpSmash makes it better. It's only a nuisance to followup after a fresh one, if you even finish it.

Also, I'm confused about Dsmash. I've never killed with it. Such a bad trajectory for that! I use it to cover my *** and punish, saving Fsmash completely.

also, pummeling refreshes as well. SO if you EVER grab some one. Pummel 2 times(after that u risk them breaking out unless they are abve 100%) and then throw. BOOM! you just filled 3 slots. Easy?

But... we should always pummel. I mean Samus can get like four or five off on people with higher percents, 80-100 around there. Maybe more, I'm not remembering.