Beyond the Chozo Guide: Seven Ways to Take Your Samus to the Next Level**

[Ravin]

FUUUUUU----------

PM me the link, we are getting a little off topic. Ill look up bus fares now...

-Grumbles-

 

[tha_carter]

About tech chasing, Dash Dance in front of them

Added, good stuff.

I think Ganondorf has a better tech-chase than Samus, and this does not involve him using his regular grab. You get knocked down, Ganondorf waits for you. You get up, he uses Forward+B. You roll to the left or right, he uses Forward+B.

Ganon, is not a really good tech chaser. His pseudo-grab move, just resets the tech chase, giving him lost of opportunities. But he'd have to successfully tech chase 5-8 times to equally the FC shot punishment Samus can deliever.

hmm, i just thought of something. i wonder how effective it would be to place a bomb in front of a grounded opponent? something makes me think that naturally not wanting to get hit by the bomb would make an opponent either get up/ get up attack, or roll forward. i see this as a way of "almost" forcing them to stay in front of you making it easier to predict their movement and counter it. hmmm..... just a thought.

Not a bad thought, if bombs had a quicker start up. But by the time the bomb is released and Samus is able to move; the opponent should be up. They do often stay grounded when they see a missile shot though. Probably be easily to limit options with that.



As far as the shield pressure topic, we should be discussing; pushback, shield stun, poking through shields and breaking shields. Any help would be good.

 

[Throwback]

hmm...well the obvious pushback is dair. The easiest way to get it to land (in my experience) is after convincing ledge-guarders that they should shield (by way of missiles/fairs etc). The pushback takes most characters too far to shieldgrab you, but close enough that you can dtilt when they try.

 

[Xyro77]

breaking/poking through shield= falling u-air to UP+B

 

[Crystanium]

Ganon, is not a really good tech chaser. His pseudo-grab move, just resets the tech chase, giving him lost of opportunities. But he'd have to successfully tech chase 5-8 times to equally the FC shot punishment Samus can deliever.

And see, his Flame Choke allows him to reset it multiple times. How many times are you going to get Samus' opponent to lie on the ground? Not very much. I'd say the occasion is seldom. Ganondorf, Snake, and even Mr. Game & Watch can tech chase much, much better than Samus. I don't see how Samus' is any better than the three I just mentioned. I just don't see Samus being "the best" tech chaser in this game. You even admit,

There are no real garunteed ways to start the tech chase (YET!), like ganon and snake have. So it will be purely situational.

Go fight a good Ganondorf, Snake, and/or Mr. Game & Watch and get back to me on the tech chasing.

 

[Cherry64]

Also Samus' Fair shield pokes along with her D tilt.
Oh does anyone know if Zair shield pokes? my buddy I play lots complains that he shields but it hits him anyway, and his shield has been up before my grapple hit him, so that seems like the only plausible answer. Just an open ended question though.

 

[Crystanium]

Also Samus' Fair shield pokes along with her D tilt.
Oh does anyone know if Zair shield pokes? my buddy I play lots complains that he shields but it hits him anyway, and his shield has been up before my grapple hit him, so that seems like the only plausible answer. Just an open ended question though.

What? I wasn't aware f-air shield-poked. If by that you mean it goes through the shield and injures the opponent, I'd like to see that. The Grappling Beam does not shield-poke as far as I am aware.

 

[DelxDoom]

Dryn; everything can technically "shield poke" - that is, hit the opponent while they are shielding simply because the shield cannot cover all the hits and leaves them exposed in some areas. Fair is decent because it reduces the shield with multiple hits and hopefully hits because of that reduced shield.

Zair can "shield poke" if they angle their shield weirdly or if you hit their head when it's not covered by a reduced shield.

Fully charged blast does tons of stun and shield damage but I'd rather connect with it.


Up B is ridiculously good versus most players because they simply will get hit by it. However, it is very possible to counter.

Falling an uair on somebody is effective only when it actually connects, if it is shielded you can be punished. If you're not being punished, then keep doing it but I'd only use it as a punisher.

It has lame horizontal range so someone can just roll/move horizontally and smash you before you touch the ground and while you're still in uair animation.

Also, up b and all followups after uair; not a true combo, buffer to make it as frame trappy as possible but you can be countered by shines, you can miss the up b if they DI the uair and mash jump away, and etc.

But Up B is a very good move yeah


Also, stop jumping on the stage from ledge with fair. Start just going back to the ledge (most effective if you don't need your up b), plank your way through any (shielding) ledge pressurers.

 

[Cherry64]

What? I wasn't aware f-air shield-poked. If by that you mean it goes through the shield and injures the opponent, I'd like to see that. The Grappling Beam does not shield-poke as far as I am aware.

Doesn't it? what Delxdoom said though, it does good shield pressure and the last hit if high enough up it Can actually hurt the person.

Yeah I think Zair does shield poke.

 

[Crystanium]

I can agree with the Screw Attack. It shreds the shield real quick. As the shield gets smaller, it becomes ineffective. I don't know anyone who moves their shield in a certain direction, though. That must take a lot of patience to manuever it without rolling or spot-dodging, especially when fighting. When the opponent's shield is small enough to where it does not cover certain parts, attacks can affect it. I only can think of Ness' PK Thunder, which I have seen shield-poke.

 

[DelxDoom]

I don't know anyone who moves their shield in a certain direction, though. That must take a lot of patience to manuever it without rolling or spot-dodging, especially when fighting.

Pros do it all the time versus Mach Tornado; CO18 tilted his shield up like every time at WHOBO versus the tornado, mostly because the tornado has a predictable uncounterable hitbox, the better you can shield the better you are off against it *shrug*

If your shield gets smaller, you should tilt it to protect yourself better. It requires much more skill than just shielding since you have to predict/react to attacks but it's still nowhere near the technicality of playing Melee so yeah w/e

 

[Cherry64]

I can agree with the Screw Attack. It shreds the shield real quick. As the shield gets smaller, it becomes ineffective. I don't know anyone who moves their shield in a certain direction, though. That must take a lot of patience to manuever it without rolling or spot-dodging, especially when fighting. When the opponent's shield is small enough to where it does not cover certain parts, attacks can affect it. I only can think of Ness' PK Thunder, which I have seen shield-poke.

What is the Definition of Shield poking then?
I always thought it was attacks that can injure a person while he or she is shielding.

 

[Xyro77]

is effective only when it actually connects, if it is shielded you can be punished. If you're not being punished, then keep doing it but I'd only use it as a punisher. [/SIZE]

and this is what separates me from you......i KNOW wtf im talking about. you dont.

falling u-air ALWAYS works if the foes shield is slightly weakened. Most of the time it pokes and if it doesnt the UP+B will suck them in. its like 90% accurate.

and dryn. moving shield is mega importan for tornados

 

[Crystanium]

What is the Definition of Shield poking then?
I always thought it was attacks that can injure a person while he or she is shielding.

Ness' PK Thunder cannot go through shields like Lucas if it's used in a regular manner. However, Ness is able to use his PK Thunder and allow it to go through shields if the person using PK Thunder masters cutting through the shield. I don't know how it works. My brother has done it before.

As for my shield, I never move it.

 

[tha_carter]

and this is what separates me from you......i KNOW wtf im talking about. you dont.

Please, keep the negativity out of this thread.

falling u-air ALWAYS works if the foes shield is slightly weakened. Most of the time it pokes and if it doesnt the UP+B will suck them in. its like 90% accurate.

The U-air hitbox, is from her waist to her feet. If it connect, its because the opponent isnt tilting the shield up, and the attack pokes through. It doesnt 'ALWAYS' work, but is quite reliable because of the lack of defensive knowledge of the move.

breaking/poking through shield= falling u-air to UP+B

These attacks will never break a shield, just as clarification. Poking, is the correct term.

Go fight a good Ganondorf, Snake, and/or Mr. Game & Watch and get back to me on the tech chasing.

My definition of tech chasing in the OP was; punishing a grounded opponent, by predicting their actions. That has nothing to do with reseting or initiating the tech chase, which is why those characters are made to seem like "good tech chasers". Either way, debating whether or not samus is the best, doesnt advance her. So lets not.

As far as the shield pressure topic, we should be discussing; pushback, shield stun, poking through shields and breaking shields. Any help would be good.

Seems like alot of statements are coming from lack of knowledge of the shield. Nobody has stepped up and DEFINED any of these. Please refer to this;

THE SHIELD COMPENDIUM!!!​

Shield: General - Shielding is the true defence method in the SSB series. It blocks all attacks, but however, is susceptable to grabs. The shield is one one the fastest actions in the game, coming out in 1 frame and only has a cool down of 7 frames (power shielding excluded).
Shield Energy - Your shield maintains energy over time, and is the factor that depends shield size and the resistance of attacks.
Shieldstab - This what happens when you have low shield energy, or you angle you shield in a bad way, and a part is not covering your character. This in part allows the hitbox of an attack to connect and drop the sheld.
Shieldbreak - A term used for when your shield runs out of energy, and basically cracks. Some attacks can cause it to crack regardless. Most shields last for 183 frames (3.05 seconds) without factoring in other major aspects. Shieldbreak stun lasts for 438 frames (7.3 seconds) without mashing, and lasts 282 frames (4.7 seconds) with mashing.

[Shield Stun - When hit by attacks while shielding, you will lag for a number of frames during which you can't do anything. The number of shield stun lag frames varies depending on which character hit you and with what attack, the lag is not based on who you are. This is different from shield hitstun in that it is the person shielding, not the attacker, that receives the lag.
Shield Hitstun - When you hit a shield with an attack, you will suffer shield hitstun. During these frames, you can't do anything.
Shield Drop Lag - When you drop your shield, you suffer drop lag, which you can't do anything for a few frames.
Powershielding - If you press the shield button all the way down within 8 frames of you being hit, you will block the attack without putting up your shield and be able to retaliate immediately. The computer does this frequently.
- Angling Your Shield: This can be done while shielding by pushing the analog stick in a given direction. The angle of your shield can help you or hurt you. Say said character starts an attack above you, such as Meta Knight's Tornado, which could shieldstab by regular shield. If you angle it up towards the attack, it can survive most of the hits (depending on shield energy). However, with an incorrect or bad angle, attacks may easily shieldstab.
- Out of Shield: Most know it as OoS, and is a very great aspect of Brawl. After an opposing character strikes your shield, or comes close to it, certain characters can instantly use an attack (i.e. Marth and Meta Knight's UpB.) OoS options include:

• - jumping into aerials
• - shield dropping into tilts
• - Usmash directly OoS
• - UpB directly OoS

- Shield Grabbing: Ah, what an excellent technique. By holding your shield button (by default its L/R) and A, you can grab directly out of your shield. It is the safest way to grab, and for some the preferred way to grab an opponent (i.e. DeDeDe's chaingrab).
- Shieldbreaking: This can literally turn the tide of match. One shield breaker at even mid percents = death. If your opponent overshields, pick up on this pattern, and own them. Don't over abuse Brawl's shield mechanic! Great Shield Breakers are:

• - Marth's Shieldbreaker (Neutral B)
• - Snake's Fsmash
• - Donkey Kong's Side B
• - Jigglypuff's Pound (Side B)
• - Mr.Game and Watch's Judgment 3 (Side B)

BTW-Shield stab=shield poke

One things that isnt mentioned is pushback. Which in short, is the amount of knockback the attack has, EVENTHOUGH the opponent is shielding. Its biggest use is to get the opponent OUT of thier grab/OOS attack range. For example; Samus' Dsmash has enough pushback to get falco out of his grab range.

 

[LanceStern]

and this is what separates me from you......i KNOW wtf im talking about. you dont.

falling u-air ALWAYS works if the foes shield is slightly weakened. Most of the time it pokes and if it doesnt the UP+B will suck them in. its like 90% accurate.

and dryn. moving shield is mega importan for tornados

Why are you so hostile? You make comments like this and more in other topics. You lose so much respect with crap like this.

 

[Xyro77]

Why are you so hostile? You make comments like this and more in other topics. You lose so much respect with crap like this.

i know what im talking about and who is he to say im wrong? Its not my fault his *** get punished for doing the technique wrong.

PS: I dont give a **** about respect and never will.

Please, keep the negativity out of this thread.

your right. this is my last "mean post" in this thread. the rest will be nicer

 

[LanceStern]

He didn't even say you were wrong though, that's the thing

 

[Xyro77]

He didn't even say you were wrong though, that's the thing

by going against what i said means hes saying im wrong. i know what im talking about, i created that stuff

 

[-Crews-]

by going against what i said means hes saying im wrong. i know what im talking about, i created that stuff

created what exactly?

 

[Xyro77]

created what exactly?

the excessive use of falling u-air to UP+B. hive and n00b use it now that i showed them. it was done in melee but wasnt as useful as it is in brawl.

 

[Hive]

its a good tactic, only thing I have against it is that it is vulnerable getting to the person because of uair's range ^^ its great falling from platforms though, and occasionally as a surprise approach :D

 

[Crystanium]

My definition of tech chasing in the OP was; punishing a grounded opponent, by predicting their actions. That has nothing to do with reseting or initiating the tech chase, which is why those characters are made to seem like "good tech chasers". Either way, debating whether or not samus is the best, doesnt advance her. So lets not.

That's fine, but what makes Samus' tech chasing the best? And if it's irrelevant as you're now saying, why even mention her being "the best tech chaser" in this game?

 

[Hive]

idk... i wouldn't say she is the best tech chaser, but I could be wrong lol I've never really compared that aspect of her ^^. Honestly i've heard she is the best at so many thing lol ^^
but in the end she's still low tier

 

[Ravin]

Shes Balanced.

In brawl, thats Low Tier.

No CG's, Great combos, but lacks kill moves. Huge learning curve over her heaviness. Learning to control and accurately use her.

Just IMO.

 

[DelxDoom]

and this is what separates me from you......i KNOW wtf im talking about. you dont.

falling u-air ALWAYS works if the foes shield is slightly weakened. Most of the time it pokes and if it doesnt the UP+B will suck them in. its like 90% accurate.

and dryn. moving shield is mega importan for tornados

yeah, it's decent vs shields.

 

[tha_carter]

That's fine, but what makes Samus' tech chasing the best? And if it's irrelevant as you're now saying, why even mention her being "the best tech chaser" in this game?

It was mentioned as to say 'shes good at it, so learn to do it well.' Not to say 'shes better at it than everyone else.' I never imagined out of ALL the valuable things i mentioned, that a Mod would come in and be fixated on that alone.



Im going to leave Shield pressure open for a bit longer because theres no real useful information being mentioned yet. Also, suggestions on the next topic would be useful.

 

[Sago]

as far as shield pressure goes i find the most affective form of it in homing missles. If there on a platform you can missle and immediatley uair. Which will force them to shield and then mostly likley get shield poked by the uair.

 

[Hive]

what kind of stuff are we trying to discuss in shield pressure exactly? breaking shields, what to do against low shields, making the enemy use shields to grab setup?


edit: anyways i'd say that samus is decent at techchasing but i'd put her at about average actually. yea, we've got zair, its good, but its also too situational really imo and not that damaging, fully charged charge shot is good but it takes some practice to hit it before their shield period and after invincibility. Her close range moves are good but are very similar to other character's techniques. Her grab is kwl ^^ but also pretty punishable and her ko power is a flaw in tech chasing compared to other characters (not to mention her ability to jab lock against certain characters). She has a lot of things going for her don't get me wrong, dsmash is good bc it covers a lot of ground if you are unsure as well as upb out of shield at close range if you are expecting an attack getup, even dtilt, fair or dash attack to upb works well occassionally too. But I mean if you think about it you can apply the same techniques to other characters (say toonlink, forward or dsmash on the getup, better ko power, up b (which charges, kos? and covers both sides), arrow at long range (which can lock i think?) and you've basically matched samus except for the occassional charge shot). I think the best tech chaser, or at least the one that uses it to his advantage the most has to be diddy kong personally (or mk).

 

[tha_carter]

Thanks sago, thats definately something to consider, since grabbing isnt an option when theyre on a different platform.

Hive, yes. Attacks that can reliably break shields, attacks/tactics that poke threw low shields are both VERY good things to discuss. Lol, whether or not OTHER characters are better tech chasers has no real relevance in this topic. Itd be appreciated if we focus on ways to make her tech chasing game better, rather than...that.

Original post under 'shield pressure' was edited

 

[Crystanium]

It was mentioned as to say 'shes good at it, so learn to do it well.' Not to say 'shes better at it than everyone else.' I never imagined out of ALL the valuable things i mentioned, that a Mod would come in and be fixated on that alone.

What can I say? I like accuracy.

Im going to leave Shield pressure open for a bit longer because theres no real useful information being mentioned yet. Also, suggestions on the next topic would be useful.

Good idea. Sorry for not having contributed to anything regarding shield-pressure. There is something I want to try out with Samus to see if I can do a possible shield-breaker with her on a shield that isn't even weakened. If I can do it more than once in a match, I might spill the beans about it. From theory, it looks promising.

 

[Hive]

^^ i think the real key to tech chasing though is in startup. Samus has a few options here...
utilt at low percentages (10%ish), dair at mid percentages (40%ish) and Untipped Zair, or ff'd zair at high percents (100-110%ish) (to name a few) i think can all lead to a "bounce" effect occasionally (if they don't get out of it) that causes a tech chase or jab lock. I really like the 40% dair setup actually because they pop up right in front of you and its very easy to punish

Luigi's mansion is a great place to take ppl to take advantage of these situations, since like anything that pops the opponent up and into the ceiling gets tech'd lol. But its actually kind of a hard level for me :/ comparitively i mean.

@carter- i didn't mean to go offtopic, sorries. ^^

 

[Rohins]

Great topic. Haven't seen this mentioned at all: smash missiles do massive shield damage. All these other things being mentioned that are done to weak shields (uair-> dsmash, uair->upB, etc.) work right after 1 smash missile.

All you Olimar haters: standing smash missile will shield poke olimar if he doesn't angle his shield up and his shield is weak (ie, if one smash missile hits his shield the next smash missile should shield poke).

Easy shield pokes vs shields that are not angled up:
Zair on Dedede's weak shield
Zair on Rob's weak shield

I'm sure there are more. Be sure to aim for their head.

 

[Cherry64]

Great topic. Haven't seen this mentioned at all: smash missiles do massive shield damage. All these other things being mentioned that are done to weak shields (uair-> dsmash, uair->upB, etc.) work right after 1 smash missile.

All you Olimar haters: standing smash missile will shield poke olimar if he doesn't angle his shield up and his shield is weak (ie, if one smash missile hits his shield the next smash missile should shield poke).

Easy shield pokes vs shields that are not angled up:
Zair on Dedede's weak shield
Zair on Rob's weak shield

I'm sure there are more. Be sure to aim for their head.

I don't think we've ever really said how awesome your input is :D that oli thing is wicked, alas You also proved me right.
I <3 you

 

[-Crews-]

if im not mistaken, the jab to dtilt combo does massive damage to the sheild. it may get u sheild grabbed if spaced poorly but it does do some sweet damage to the sheild.

 

[Crystanium]

if im not mistaken, the jab to dtilt combo does massive damage to the sheild. it may get u sheild grabbed if spaced poorly but it does do some sweet damage to the sheild.

I've never seen a shield get so weakened by a jab to d-tilt. Are you sure it actually does "massive damage to the sheild [sic]"?

 

[IsmaR]

D-air > D-air.....(repeat as many times as you wish) > FC Charge Shot > FINISH HIM > ??? > Profit.

You can also throw in some Dash Attacks, U-tilts(work especially well on Olimar), F-smashes, and Bomb+D-tilts. Z-airs and Smash Missiles for long range work wonders, too. Anything can work, actually.

 

[-Crews-]

I've never seen a shield get so weakened by a jab to d-tilt. Are you sure it actually does "massive damage to the sheild [sic]"?

im pretty sure. i remember doing it to my friends and noticing that their sheild was pretty low. but, it could be because it was already weakned. im not sure now that i think about it.

 

[tha_carter]

@Dryn,
Please; SPILL the beans.

@Rohins,
Thanks, that helps alot.

It'd be nice for someone to LIST which ranged attack eat up the most shield. (**Dont forget bombs! ) And a separate list for melee attacks?

How about PUSHBACK? Which melee attack provide good pushback on shield? As ive said, sometimes pushback is MORE important that eating up/poking through shield.

 

[Crystanium]

@Dryn,
Please; SPILL the beans.

I can't, yet, because my Wii is being dumb, so I cannot test it out to see if it actually will work.

How about PUSHBACK? Which melee attack provide good pushback on shield? As ive said, sometimes pushback is MORE important that eating up/poking through shield.

I think the d-smash has good knock-back against a shield.