nobody has suggseted we go solely off tournament results, so everyone in this thread so far is in agreement.
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BBR Weekly Character Discussion #4: Pit
- Thread starter Marc
- Start date
The only character Peach needs a secondary for is MK.
So that means we have to second- wait- crap. MK?
Eh, even Falco theoretically needs a secondary for some matchups and he's a top tier character. Isn't a huge factor in the MK debate that every character other than MK has a bad matchup? Does it matter all that much if it's Pikachu/Ice Climbers (Falco) rather than MK (Pit) you need a secondary for? I suppose you see MKs more often, but that alone doesn't justify a gap of three tiers, especially since Pikachu is probably more crippling for Falco than MK is for Pit. I really don't see why it's a huge problem for one character and not another to need a secondary, just seems like a double standard that was dragged in here to justify opinions. I'm in agreement with the overrating of Pit and I'm definitely not saying Peach is top tier, but if it's because of a few poor matchups rather than tournament results people are downplaying them for the wrong reasons. The crux of the argument should still be that Pit doesn't do much to warrant his high placing, regardless of speculation as to why.
Our tier list represents the game (which is the exact same in Japan), not just one metagame. It just so happens people will mostly look at the American results as there are a lot of them and they are readily available, but that doesn't mean the rest of the world magically stops existing. If a Pit (or a Peach) can consistently do well in a region, even with different rules (it's not like there is a standard in the first place), something tells me that character's not bottom tier. We already agreed we've overrated him, but this paragraph of yours is just shortsighted. From my understanding Pit isn't that hot in Japan anymore either, so that would only strengthen your point that he needs to be lowered, no?
A 100-0 matchup is very different in nature from a 60-40 matchup. Even so, we've consistently ranked DK as a pretty good character despite his major limitation.
Leon sucessfully uses Marth against MK and Falco, make of that what you will.
I'll give my opinion on Pit, and my backing is speaking with the Japanese (There he goes with that region again.) and interacting with Michael Hey.
Pit has a Chain Grab on many characters, most notable is DDD who he can CG with a boosted Grab to 80%. Pit goes somewhat even with Snake chiefly because of his very easy-to-do gimp after Snake is off stage, (however it's still in snakes favor), and MK can be argued day and night so I won't even go there.
Pit isn't overrated. Pit isn't underrated. Americans haven't even RATED him so how can we put a preposition before rated when there was no rate to begin with? Pit is a character, like much of the cast, who has cob webs and has gotten no attention, and there are very few people that are qualified to speak on his behalf; (Potential, tournament experiences, etc etc.)
To answer Crow! quickly, Arrow Loops have advantages. It's often used after a stock is taken to combo from grabs to regrabs. IE, Grab, Fthrow, Arrow loop, Grab. It's situational, but who said situational things = non viable? =]
@Edrees: Couple of things:
Wario is fully capable of winning a tournament by himself without Subs. I don't feel like I need to go into detail cause we're talking about pit but, then when you give that line drawing fallacy about what is and isn't a sub... Come on now. There is no Line to draw I think, cause having a Sub is Subjective.
In my opinion, your Main is who you're best with, who you know the best. Your Subs are there in the characters that aren't as good as your first. Double mains work if both are of equal skill. But I don't think it's fair to count viability with subs. Ganon is not viable. Ganon is simply being pushed up by your sub, MK, who IS viable. The less MU's you can take with that character, the less viable he or she becomes.
I'll leave it at this for now and I'll respond to people. My brain is dead, this English is terrible. Somebody speak to me in Guyanese.
Pit has a Chain Grab on many characters, most notable is DDD who he can CG with a boosted Grab to 80%. Pit goes somewhat even with Snake chiefly because of his very easy-to-do gimp after Snake is off stage, (however it's still in snakes favor), and MK can be argued day and night so I won't even go there.
Pit isn't overrated. Pit isn't underrated. Americans haven't even RATED him so how can we put a preposition before rated when there was no rate to begin with? Pit is a character, like much of the cast, who has cob webs and has gotten no attention, and there are very few people that are qualified to speak on his behalf; (Potential, tournament experiences, etc etc.)
To answer Crow! quickly, Arrow Loops have advantages. It's often used after a stock is taken to combo from grabs to regrabs. IE, Grab, Fthrow, Arrow loop, Grab. It's situational, but who said situational things = non viable? =]
@Edrees: Couple of things:
Wario is fully capable of winning a tournament by himself without Subs. I don't feel like I need to go into detail cause we're talking about pit but, then when you give that line drawing fallacy about what is and isn't a sub... Come on now. There is no Line to draw I think, cause having a Sub is Subjective.
In my opinion, your Main is who you're best with, who you know the best. Your Subs are there in the characters that aren't as good as your first. Double mains work if both are of equal skill. But I don't think it's fair to count viability with subs. Ganon is not viable. Ganon is simply being pushed up by your sub, MK, who IS viable. The less MU's you can take with that character, the less viable he or she becomes.
I'll leave it at this for now and I'll respond to people. My brain is dead, this English is terrible. Somebody speak to me in Guyanese.
Mikey Lenetia
Smash Champion
Pit, Peach. Eh. They both start with P.
Anyway, seriously, about Pit. By all means, he isn't a bad character. He's just... limited. By far and away, he and ROB are the heaviest affected by there being an LGL, which itself is highly unfortunate. Even then, however, their ledge games aren't EVERYTHING they have going for them. When IrisKong was still playing, I convinced him to pick up Pit, and his results were pretty good(and far better than his other characters he tried out).
His projectiles are fast, spammable, and serve well for added pressure, damage, the odd gimp, and mindgames. Arrow loops are usually quite flashy, and rarely wind up paying off against anyone that knows of their presence. I'm also not quite sure how, but he seems to be able to slide ala Peach's dtilt after, I think, his sidestep. I never quite learned the basics of it, but knew that it was a bit of a bother to get around. Disjointed hitboxes pretty much are attached to all of his attacks, too, and he has a down B that can gimp just about every character in the cast if used correctly. His glide is, I think, the fastest of the three, and his glide attack is also the one with the most knockback. It can also be quite difficult to get him off the ledge as he fills you with arrows, and can run from one side of the stage to the other in a way that quite a few characters can do little about; underneath it.
His ledge game, however, comes with a risk against some characters. If a character can do anything about ledges, he runs the risk of getting gimped, especially if gets read, and can't turn back to the other side of the stage with his up B. If he gets hit or attacks out of it, though, he's pretty much dead. He also only has three midair jumps attached to his glide. If you know the character and can SDI, he also has a tough time killing outright as well(since his bair, fsmash, and sometimes ftilt seem to be the best at KOing), and isn't extremely good at edgeguarding(though by no means is he terrible at it). His grab/throw game is a bit meh, and doesn't have a TON of range to effectively wall people once they get in. Most of his aerials, as well as his tilts seem to have a good bit of cooldown(outside of fair, uair, and maybe dtilt). His best shield defenses, too, are lackluster: utilt, which has a good amount of cooldown, usmash, which can be SDIed out of and hits three times, and up B, which pushes people away, cancels some projectiles, and... that's pretty much it. The first two are for aerial pressure, and the last, ground.
I'm no expert on Pit, but that's at least what I got from facing Iris's, as well as Suyon's. He's pretty decent, but other people have nailed it on the head when they said he isn't extremely amazing. Sure, this may just be because of lack of usage and such, but that in itself doesn't build a case for him. With little information, I can only really support a decrease in a position in favor of those that have better results to match their budding potentials. It's also because of the lack of representation that we don't know, like Luigi, if all our analysis is true or not, or if he'd be another 'he's good until you learn how to play against him' type.
Unless something drastic happens with Pit, I don't think my position on supporting a drop in Pit's tier placing will change, sadly.
Anyway, seriously, about Pit. By all means, he isn't a bad character. He's just... limited. By far and away, he and ROB are the heaviest affected by there being an LGL, which itself is highly unfortunate. Even then, however, their ledge games aren't EVERYTHING they have going for them. When IrisKong was still playing, I convinced him to pick up Pit, and his results were pretty good(and far better than his other characters he tried out).
His projectiles are fast, spammable, and serve well for added pressure, damage, the odd gimp, and mindgames. Arrow loops are usually quite flashy, and rarely wind up paying off against anyone that knows of their presence. I'm also not quite sure how, but he seems to be able to slide ala Peach's dtilt after, I think, his sidestep. I never quite learned the basics of it, but knew that it was a bit of a bother to get around. Disjointed hitboxes pretty much are attached to all of his attacks, too, and he has a down B that can gimp just about every character in the cast if used correctly. His glide is, I think, the fastest of the three, and his glide attack is also the one with the most knockback. It can also be quite difficult to get him off the ledge as he fills you with arrows, and can run from one side of the stage to the other in a way that quite a few characters can do little about; underneath it.
His ledge game, however, comes with a risk against some characters. If a character can do anything about ledges, he runs the risk of getting gimped, especially if gets read, and can't turn back to the other side of the stage with his up B. If he gets hit or attacks out of it, though, he's pretty much dead. He also only has three midair jumps attached to his glide. If you know the character and can SDI, he also has a tough time killing outright as well(since his bair, fsmash, and sometimes ftilt seem to be the best at KOing), and isn't extremely good at edgeguarding(though by no means is he terrible at it). His grab/throw game is a bit meh, and doesn't have a TON of range to effectively wall people once they get in. Most of his aerials, as well as his tilts seem to have a good bit of cooldown(outside of fair, uair, and maybe dtilt). His best shield defenses, too, are lackluster: utilt, which has a good amount of cooldown, usmash, which can be SDIed out of and hits three times, and up B, which pushes people away, cancels some projectiles, and... that's pretty much it. The first two are for aerial pressure, and the last, ground.
I'm no expert on Pit, but that's at least what I got from facing Iris's, as well as Suyon's. He's pretty decent, but other people have nailed it on the head when they said he isn't extremely amazing. Sure, this may just be because of lack of usage and such, but that in itself doesn't build a case for him. With little information, I can only really support a decrease in a position in favor of those that have better results to match their budding potentials. It's also because of the lack of representation that we don't know, like Luigi, if all our analysis is true or not, or if he'd be another 'he's good until you learn how to play against him' type.
Unless something drastic happens with Pit, I don't think my position on supporting a drop in Pit's tier placing will change, sadly.
How? Nobody uses pikachu, everyone uses MK.
The likelyhood fo making it to GF in any region without encountering a good MK is almost zero. What's the likelyhood of encountering a good pikachu? Almost zero.
Wait, so I can post Japanese tournament results for the character rankings thread then? If we aren't allowed to do that, I don't see why we should be allowed to use Japanese results in our discussions, since the rankings list directly is calculated into the tier list as well.
I was talking about the individual matchups, although there was some speculation involved considering I don't main Pit either. If you want to go there, we rate Pit way lower than we rate Falco, so I'd say we already correct for MK being more prevalent than Pikachu in a way. They were just examples to illustrate my point anyway, which is that the existence of bad matchups in itself isn't a reason to drop a character because even the good tournament performers have them. But this is getting to the point where we are screaming at each other about how much in agreement we are; everyone thinks Pit should drop.
Huh? Other projects have nothing to do with this character discussion and the tier list, other than serving as data. :S I mean, it doesn't hurt to be cautious with using examples from lesser (known) regions to support arguments, but that doesn't mean their outliers should be ignored altogether. Because SWF (and by extension the BBR) is very America-centered, the tier list will reflect that, but our goal is to accurately judge the game.
I think we can firmly justify the difference between S and A tier at this point from this discussion.
S tier you can fully and willingly have no secondaries.
Even in A tier, if you happen to face your "bad match up" every single round, you will probably not win the tournament.
Snake: Dedede
Falco: Pikachu (maybe ICs)
Marth: MK (but hell, he's the exception to the rule I guess; there's also contention over D3)
Wario: Peach (Marth / MK too perhaps)
ICs: "Snake" (MK too)
etc etc
If DEHF had a pikachu to play every single round of bracket until the grand finals, I'd wonder whether or not he would be forced out of using Falco.
Same goes for Ally against playing every single dedede main in the united states every round. Even though he can beat most.
The MK main will never have to "worry" about anything other than personal match up issues. But the success of A tier character mains in tournament can do a degree be reflected on the fact their bad match up is mostly destroyed by MK.
S tier you can fully and willingly have no secondaries.
Even in A tier, if you happen to face your "bad match up" every single round, you will probably not win the tournament.
Snake: Dedede
Falco: Pikachu (maybe ICs)
Marth: MK (but hell, he's the exception to the rule I guess; there's also contention over D3)
Wario: Peach (Marth / MK too perhaps)
ICs: "Snake" (MK too)
etc etc
If DEHF had a pikachu to play every single round of bracket until the grand finals, I'd wonder whether or not he would be forced out of using Falco.
Same goes for Ally against playing every single dedede main in the united states every round. Even though he can beat most.
The MK main will never have to "worry" about anything other than personal match up issues. But the success of A tier character mains in tournament can do a degree be reflected on the fact their bad match up is mostly destroyed by MK.
Random sidenote, what are all the top snake players going to apex? I would also love a bracket composed only of snakes.
edit: Marc we will soon know just how good/bad europe is anyways, so we can see how relevant the placings are!
Can you elaborate on this, cuz I have no idea how to do it.
I just remember that Sagemoon used to demolish Eggz's Dedede back in the day, and he had told me that there was an 80% CG on Dedede. I never asked for an explanation on how to do it though.
I would pick up Pit just to chain grab DDD players to 80%. That is epic reversal right there.
Cancel dash attack into grab i presume. Thats the definition of "boosted grab".Can you elaborate on this, cuz I have no idea how to do it.
The Real Inferno
Smash Hero
I think it's actually 60%. Pit can generally take DDD to the ledge with CG from mid-level of Smashville and Battlefield (a little further back than that actually) and gets a free Forward Smash at the end of it. This puts DDD in a terrible position because Pit can edgeguard him very easily. If pit can drain his jump while poking, DDD's upB is a guaranteed bair for Pit.
Gadiel_VaStar
Smash Champion
My gosh, it feels like Pit is on trial in this thread, lol.
By the way, one vote from one member can not change the entire tier list, especially since there are 100+ people in the BBR. Multiple members must have voted Pit as an "A" or "B" tier character.
Pit's placement on the current tier list is definitely not the reason why the BBR continues to have its creditablity questioned. The BBR is questioned mainly because of its inability to come together and get things done. Alumni members of the have even claimed that there are too many biased members and discussions which make it hard to distinguish between the cold hard facts and transparent biased judgements and opinions. If you don't believe me, look @ your own discussion. More than half of a thread dedicated to discussing Pit, was not even about him! Also, I did not once feel that there was enough varied voices from the BBR in this discussion. There must have been other members that were in agreement with Pit's placement on the tier list.
Anyways, Pit moving down on the next tier list is fine. He has not really placed well in the US. However, you have to keep in mind that he has literally NO TOP PLAYER backing him up. That alone can skew tier placement. To prove my point, let's take a look @ the last tier list. Wario was ranked third, and guess who got him there...FICTION. Wario's KO Power, ability to "air camp," and conjunction with his clutch kills(waft) was enough to place him a top 3 character. Look at where he's @ now --- 7th best, which is still good, but he clearly isn't as great as we though he was.
Diddy is 3rd best now. At the moment he has three main top performers. ADHD, Gnes, and Felix. It can be said that those three players make the bulk of his tournament results. However, in the beginning of Brawl, he was just a fresh toy on the market with no brand recognition. He needed more advertising and more reviews before he was actually considered a "viable" toy to play with. Once he was tested and become famous from a celebrity(ADHD) Diddy became really hyped up.
I feel that Pit is in the same postion Diddy was years ago. There are no top Pit players to shed some light on his potential and to show concrete results. I've personally talked to a Japanese player via aib, and he told me that Pit very very popular and has an abundance of players in Japan. Smashers of all skill level play him in tournament. Also, Japan has two top Pit players, Masashi and Earth(who is coming to APEX) respctively. Therefore, he is naturally in a better position on their tier list because he has more results and players that actually win tournaments.
I just think Pit is deeply misunderstood, which is really sad, but the harsh reality. There is nothing that will cause Pit to move up in the future besides amazing tournament results. Even though the tier list is supposedly not completely based on tournament results, the majority of it is. Someone will have to step it up whether it be Koolaid, another Pit player, or myself. All the ranting about "Pit can do this" or "Pit is better than X," is suprisingly useless on these boards for any character because actions speak louder than words. Although Pit doesn't have to prove anything, it would be nice to actually have his abilities properly represented. There are many characters in the game whose metagames are similar to Pit's...under-developed ground games, unproper utilization of attacks, and overall ignorance from the players that main them and the community. It's pretty sad, but reality is reality I guess.
I hope this shed some light. If anyone has any questions, please let me know.
~GsTaR
By the way, one vote from one member can not change the entire tier list, especially since there are 100+ people in the BBR. Multiple members must have voted Pit as an "A" or "B" tier character.
Pit's placement on the current tier list is definitely not the reason why the BBR continues to have its creditablity questioned. The BBR is questioned mainly because of its inability to come together and get things done. Alumni members of the have even claimed that there are too many biased members and discussions which make it hard to distinguish between the cold hard facts and transparent biased judgements and opinions. If you don't believe me, look @ your own discussion. More than half of a thread dedicated to discussing Pit, was not even about him! Also, I did not once feel that there was enough varied voices from the BBR in this discussion. There must have been other members that were in agreement with Pit's placement on the tier list.
Anyways, Pit moving down on the next tier list is fine. He has not really placed well in the US. However, you have to keep in mind that he has literally NO TOP PLAYER backing him up. That alone can skew tier placement. To prove my point, let's take a look @ the last tier list. Wario was ranked third, and guess who got him there...FICTION. Wario's KO Power, ability to "air camp," and conjunction with his clutch kills(waft) was enough to place him a top 3 character. Look at where he's @ now --- 7th best, which is still good, but he clearly isn't as great as we though he was.
Diddy is 3rd best now. At the moment he has three main top performers. ADHD, Gnes, and Felix. It can be said that those three players make the bulk of his tournament results. However, in the beginning of Brawl, he was just a fresh toy on the market with no brand recognition. He needed more advertising and more reviews before he was actually considered a "viable" toy to play with. Once he was tested and become famous from a celebrity(ADHD) Diddy became really hyped up.
I feel that Pit is in the same postion Diddy was years ago. There are no top Pit players to shed some light on his potential and to show concrete results. I've personally talked to a Japanese player via aib, and he told me that Pit very very popular and has an abundance of players in Japan. Smashers of all skill level play him in tournament. Also, Japan has two top Pit players, Masashi and Earth(who is coming to APEX) respctively. Therefore, he is naturally in a better position on their tier list because he has more results and players that actually win tournaments.
I just think Pit is deeply misunderstood, which is really sad, but the harsh reality. There is nothing that will cause Pit to move up in the future besides amazing tournament results. Even though the tier list is supposedly not completely based on tournament results, the majority of it is. Someone will have to step it up whether it be Koolaid, another Pit player, or myself. All the ranting about "Pit can do this" or "Pit is better than X," is suprisingly useless on these boards for any character because actions speak louder than words. Although Pit doesn't have to prove anything, it would be nice to actually have his abilities properly represented. There are many characters in the game whose metagames are similar to Pit's...under-developed ground games, unproper utilization of attacks, and overall ignorance from the players that main them and the community. It's pretty sad, but reality is reality I guess.
I hope this shed some light. If anyone has any questions, please let me know.
~GsTaR
Someone voting "1" in a range of 6, when most other members are voting in the 4 actually skew things very quickly; because the voting is considered as an over all average.
It wasn't just one person, obviously.
Wario is still in the highest tier feasible (i.e. non-mk tier).
And he is comparative to the rest of his tier besides Snake and diddy.
The excuse of "omg no one plays X character, that's why he's bad" is... terrible.
As I want to repeat/outline, what about the mains of other characters who are working their *** off and SHOWING that their character is currently more tournament viable.
And when it comes to Pit, people over rate him from propaganda and spin.
Literally.
But characters have risen and dropped on the tier list due to inspection; it's not all just tournament results.
When it comes to Pit and the BBR, no "expert" is willing to actually admit he has weaknesses.
If they say "omg we go even at worst against every high tier bar mk", and we say "I don't think so", nothing happens. I and others ask to explain but get no real response.
Tournament results back up theory talk, I agree.
But other things can back up theory talk.
To paraphrase, in a nut shell, Pit is full of complete mystery and the truths relating to his potential (match up, stages, etc) are not agreed on at all. Representation in the BBR for him is near complete conflict with other members. This is the heart of the issue. If everything we're told about Pit was true, yes he would be amazing. But I (and others) just outright do not BELIEVE because there is nothing to prove it.
It wasn't just one person, obviously.
Wario is still in the highest tier feasible (i.e. non-mk tier).
And he is comparative to the rest of his tier besides Snake and diddy.
The excuse of "omg no one plays X character, that's why he's bad" is... terrible.
As I want to repeat/outline, what about the mains of other characters who are working their *** off and SHOWING that their character is currently more tournament viable.
And when it comes to Pit, people over rate him from propaganda and spin.
Literally.
But characters have risen and dropped on the tier list due to inspection; it's not all just tournament results.
When it comes to Pit and the BBR, no "expert" is willing to actually admit he has weaknesses.
If they say "omg we go even at worst against every high tier bar mk", and we say "I don't think so", nothing happens. I and others ask to explain but get no real response.
Tournament results back up theory talk, I agree.
But other things can back up theory talk.
To paraphrase, in a nut shell, Pit is full of complete mystery and the truths relating to his potential (match up, stages, etc) are not agreed on at all. Representation in the BBR for him is near complete conflict with other members. This is the heart of the issue. If everything we're told about Pit was true, yes he would be amazing. But I (and others) just outright do not BELIEVE because there is nothing to prove it.
Ayoub
Smash Ace
I hope you're trolling.Can you elaborate on this, cuz I have no idea how to do it.
Pit doesn't have a CG upto 80% on DDD, what a joke.
Nikenick
Smash Journeyman
Comments like this just shows how much people actually know about Pit. Best thing you can get against a DDD is about 40-60% with grab -> fsmash/dash attack/usmash. You will put him in a bad position most of the time though so you might be able to do more damage if you're able to read his movement.
Anyways I'd like to see some real arguments about why MK wrecks Pit this bad, since it seems like everybody just agrees on this topic without providing any real arguments.
And another thing, most of the people that post here don't even main Pit and talk about pit like they main or know everything about him. I keep hearing: 'potential', yet nobody stated what potential Pit has or why he doesn't has that potential. I know that Pit isn't placing really well and that would definitely be a reason to make him drop a few spots on the tier list, but the people that don't know anything about Pit should really stop providing weak or false arguments why Pit should drop.
A tier list is by definition a means of showing viability comparatively to other characters.
What arguments does Pit have to stay above characters such as Kirby, Zero Suit Samus, Toon Link, and maybe even Peach, Donkey Kong, ROB, etc.
If the answer is "none" than any aforementioned points about the formerly listed characters would show precedence.
If the reason Pit originally rose was due to an unattained argument in the first place (which is humbly my and several other BBR members opinions on the matter), then this further rescinds his base potential.
I can tell you why people agree MK wrecks Pit:
Propaganda proclaims Pit is the Planking Pmaster (PPPitPP)
Whilst it has been proven by frame data his planking is lacklustre, on top of not having as many recovery options, it would seem that Meta Knight is the best character in the game to combat planking of any character, due to having near perfect safety in harassing other characters doing so.
I would honestly like to see arguments of what Pit is exceptional at. Because I'm bored of "he has good high tier match ups and can plank" without any evidence.
What arguments does Pit have to stay above characters such as Kirby, Zero Suit Samus, Toon Link, and maybe even Peach, Donkey Kong, ROB, etc.
If the answer is "none" than any aforementioned points about the formerly listed characters would show precedence.
If the reason Pit originally rose was due to an unattained argument in the first place (which is humbly my and several other BBR members opinions on the matter), then this further rescinds his base potential.
I can tell you why people agree MK wrecks Pit:
Propaganda proclaims Pit is the Planking Pmaster (PPPitPP)
Whilst it has been proven by frame data his planking is lacklustre, on top of not having as many recovery options, it would seem that Meta Knight is the best character in the game to combat planking of any character, due to having near perfect safety in harassing other characters doing so.
I would honestly like to see arguments of what Pit is exceptional at. Because I'm bored of "he has good high tier match ups and can plank" without any evidence.
Ayoub
Smash Ace
Pit can wingdash...
Unlike toon link, pit can loop his arrows.
...lol
Unlike toon link, pit can loop his arrows.
...lol
Rickerdy-doo-da-day
Smash Master
- Joined
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- RicardoAvocado
This (and I'm sure there are many more who would agree) is the biggest gripe I have with Pit's recent rise on the current Tier List
In the future, Pit might suddenly burst out and start wrecking everything in sight or do a San/Shaky/Nick Riddle. Currently however, he's doing bugger all to justify such a huge rise. Certainly for your tier list anyway, Japan is a completely different matter
Pits got some decent stuff though, he's definitly mid tier at worst
Pierce7d
Wise Hermit
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- 3DS FC
- 1993-9028-0439
Well, let's take a look at some soft data. I'm drawing off my own data, collected from personal studies, and my brother's knowledge. (My brother is a Pit main)
Pit gets ***** by MK.
Pit gets ***** by Snake, unless he planks. However, with an edge-grab limit, Pit gets ***** by Snake.
Pit does okay against Falco, but the higher levels of play, the more Falco pulls ahead.
Pit does okay against Marth, but loses, same as Falco, for virtually the same reasons.
Pit probably beats ICs.
Pit loses to Diddy, not too bad, but it's Diddy's favor solidly.
Pit slightly loses to D3.
Pit probably slightly loses to Olimar.
Pit ***** Pikachu.
Pit loses to Kirby.
Pit goes even with Lucario.
Pit beats Toon Link.
Unsure of DK MU.
Pit loses to GnW
etc. Pit doesn't even have secure MUs against the low tiers. I typically am able to defeat Pit with Mario (who's actually Mid Tier, but w/e)
In short, I still think Pit is a very good character, but he's overrated as hell.
Pit gets ***** by MK.
Pit gets ***** by Snake, unless he planks. However, with an edge-grab limit, Pit gets ***** by Snake.
Pit does okay against Falco, but the higher levels of play, the more Falco pulls ahead.
Pit does okay against Marth, but loses, same as Falco, for virtually the same reasons.
Pit probably beats ICs.
Pit loses to Diddy, not too bad, but it's Diddy's favor solidly.
Pit slightly loses to D3.
Pit probably slightly loses to Olimar.
Pit ***** Pikachu.
Pit loses to Kirby.
Pit goes even with Lucario.
Pit beats Toon Link.
Unsure of DK MU.
Pit loses to GnW
etc. Pit doesn't even have secure MUs against the low tiers. I typically am able to defeat Pit with Mario (who's actually Mid Tier, but w/e)
In short, I still think Pit is a very good character, but he's overrated as hell.
Browny
Smash Hater
uhuh...
So pit is ranked 13/37 on the tier list and you say hes a very good character and overrated as hell?
Where on earth would you put him at then?
(this part isnt directed at you pierce) Also since haters gonna hate, for Ive lost count of how many months in a row, Pit is still unable to break top 20 in the tournament rankings. But hey, keep telling us of his incredible, high tier untapped potential. The more you say something the more likely its true, right? Mediocre character was, is and always will be mediocre.
It truly is beyond the joke how overrated this character is. There exists no clearer distinction of unfounded bias than with pit. The only comparable example is bowser, however the tournament rankings thread loses significance once you reach that end of the tier list and 1 placing can be the difference between rank 37 and 27.
His success in japan (apparent reason for bias in his rise so far) should be worth exactly nothing, since by definition of this tier list, it is regarding the american BBR ruleset. This is doubly wrong because you all have no idea how a japanese pit would fare in american tournaments. Did you know that PT is considered complete garbage in japan? does he deserve a massive drop here?
So pit is ranked 13/37 on the tier list and you say hes a very good character and overrated as hell?
Where on earth would you put him at then?
(this part isnt directed at you pierce) Also since haters gonna hate, for Ive lost count of how many months in a row, Pit is still unable to break top 20 in the tournament rankings. But hey, keep telling us of his incredible, high tier untapped potential. The more you say something the more likely its true, right? Mediocre character was, is and always will be mediocre.
It truly is beyond the joke how overrated this character is. There exists no clearer distinction of unfounded bias than with pit. The only comparable example is bowser, however the tournament rankings thread loses significance once you reach that end of the tier list and 1 placing can be the difference between rank 37 and 27.
His success in japan (apparent reason for bias in his rise so far) should be worth exactly nothing, since by definition of this tier list, it is regarding the american BBR ruleset. This is doubly wrong because you all have no idea how a japanese pit would fare in american tournaments. Did you know that PT is considered complete garbage in japan? does he deserve a massive drop here?
Gadiel_VaStar
Smash Champion
Pit has not broken into the top 20 in the tournament rankings in quite a while because he has no Top Tier player to propel him there. The rest of the characters that have broken into the top 20 have at least one top player. Pit is just a shiny unopened present collecting dust.
Nitrix
Smash Ace
To me Pit is kind of like Sonic. He has tons of neutral matchups, and rarely has an ace-in-the-hole tactic that makes things easy. The only way to win is through knowledge and hard work. I do believe he is slightly overrated, but he does have some things going for him that warrant a poisition in that general area.
- Pit vs D3 is pretty even too, possibly in Pit's favour.
Personally I think Kirby is fine, but I don't have enough knowledge to really say. Otherwise I pretty much agree with the rest.
- If Pit vs Diddy is in Diddy's favour, its 55:45 at best. Its a pretty even matchup. Diddy has a tricky time killing Pit, and arrows and reflectors can be annoying for the banana game.
- Pit vs D3 is pretty even too, possibly in Pit's favour.
Personally I think Kirby is fine, but I don't have enough knowledge to really say. Otherwise I pretty much agree with the rest.
Gadiel_VaStar
Smash Champion
I digress with some of the matchup ratios, but that's not too important right now. Pit is a balanced character. He does have weaknesses, such as a slight disadvantage in close quarter combat, average KO Power, SDI-able smashes and aerials, laggy tilts/aerials with a lot of startup/cool-down if not used after a jump. He still has 3 jumps, a glide and an up-b that he can use to recover, and that alone is better than most characters. His special moves are above-average at the least. Pit doesn't have any "OMG" or outstanding qualities either like MK's tornado, Snake's tilts or Diddy's banannas. He does have arrows which are extremely versatile projectiles. They can be charged, curved, looped, and angled to hit an opponent's weakest position. For example, against a tall character like Snake; if Snake is holding his shield, Pit can curve his arrows to Snake's head or feet, which can sometimes shield stab. Arrows are also good for edgeguarding, especially vs D3. Pit's Mirror Shield is a great edgeguarding tool which can reflect MK's tornado, up-b, glide, and side-b, but it's better off reflecting the recoveries of the mid/low tier characters below him like Donkey Kong, Fox, and Link. His side-b can reflect projectiles and is a good move to punish airdodges/spot-dodges, and positions by the ledge, but it's easily DI-able so that limits it's use.
Pit still doesn't really get wrecked by any character(yes MK is beatable) and he doesn't get, grab-released, or chain-grabbed by many characters expect for the 50% chaingrab by Falco and the obvious IC infinite. Pit doesn't get ***** by specific character shenanigans. He doesn't necessarily need the ledge to perform well. Overall, he's not bad, but he doesn't have any monstrous features that the BBR seems to rate highly. He performs well on stages with platforms and where he has the option to glide or up-b to the other side of the stage.
Earth from Japan(Second best Pit there) is coming to Apex, so your assumations about how a Japanese Pit can place will be resolved there.
I agree with the fact that he should drop in the next list. I still have my thoughts on where he should place, but there was really no reason why he moved up the last list. The BBR surprised us too, lol.
Nice read,
Almost everything here is legit.
Don't you ever consider arrow looping or all pit's fancyness.
They have never helped us on our MU's. And never will...
The only thing i can help is to contribute with my nation:
I'm brasilian and the pit's metagame here looks like a lot with american's. We don't place high and always get ***** by MK's.
Our best pit mainers are me and LaN, look for some videos in youtube if you like.
Almost everything here is legit.
Don't you ever consider arrow looping or all pit's fancyness.
They have never helped us on our MU's. And never will...
The only thing i can help is to contribute with my nation:
I'm brasilian and the pit's metagame here looks like a lot with american's. We don't place high and always get ***** by MK's.
Our best pit mainers are me and LaN, look for some videos in youtube if you like.
Ayoub
Smash Ace
Pit-Marth is worse then Pit-Falco.
Since when does Pit '****' Pika.
Pit beats DK.
Pit-D³ is kinda even too.
Pit goes even with TL.
Pit loses badly to Olimar, not slightly.
/makes it worse then it is already.
Even tho, Pit doesn't have any unbeatable MU, things like 70-30 or 80-20.
iFudge
Banned via Warnings
snake doesnt **** pit lmao :D.
This.
The Matchup is - at best - slightly in favour of Snake.
And lol @ the Pit ***** Pikachu Part.
CorruptFate
The Corrupted
So as much fun as it is for everyone who gives a **** to read over several posts saying "lol they are so wrong" that is called spam. If you have a position that you would like to express do so with an argument to back it up, either with stats or strats that you have found to help over come this.
Browny
Smash Hater
I didnt say anything about how well he would place? I know of this, and for the record I think he will place pretty much exactly the same as the best USA pit will, which at a guess will be around 25th.
Gadiel_VaStar
Smash Champion
Well you definitely questioned how well he would place. There really isn't anything to prove, and only amazing tournament results will cause a rise in Pit in the future.
Albert.
Smash Master
Just to clarify, KoolAid does decently against the top Snakes in his region, Fatal and BizKit
Katana_koden
Smash Ace
Crap double post due endless loading >refresh page >Submit
Katana_koden
Smash Ace
This post I have to agree with completely. Pit should go down on the tier list with the lack of tourney results. That and barely anyone fully represents him. If there is only one or very few pit players in a tournament, I doubt even if good, would win every time. I would think I can win majority of matches with my playing skill, but definitely not all by my self. Unfortunately another pit isn't there to continue or take my place if so.
Pit potential feel also comes from the experience of other characters weakness seem to be worse than pits as a whole. An example to that would be linear recoveries that make it predictable to gimp. Or just out of reach. Compare it to pit's, it feels if not guaranteed, we chose a bad option to get gimped. Pits weight and speed is mid weight and on the faster side that also gives you more options than most. At a time I wanted to main peach because of her easy combo's to pull off in a match but her weakness kicked in. Linear recovery, very light weight that dies to stale moves early, and defensive options. Another is falco or snake. I can feel how much better the character feels in general, side steps and stage options (falco). Snake's shield to punish options and range and setups, but when off stage, there nothing you can do but suicide like a melee falco. Not just recovery alone, but wishing to have his range and aerial options with his light weight makes playing with characters like pika, wario, fox, etc. not so worth while.
Pit is still a mystery on how to play him, some camp and some agro. We try both but how exactly? Shield pressure strats? Rolling punish strats? There is a lot of unknown answers as pit can be considered good but not so good vs high level play due to this.
Lenus Altair
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2008
- Messages
- 518
As we understand Pit to date there is an easy way to describe him: Above Average. We can all list a lot of his good points: solid damage racking potential, a strong recovery, useful disjointed attacks, a number of gimping options, and some abusively quick ariels/smashes for starters.
I agree with the sentiment that currently his tier position is overrated. He lacks something particularly outstanding like the characters above him (and a few below.) While metaknight being his worst match up is quite crippling in tournament play, a number of A and B tier characters give him a lot of trouble as well (Namely Marth and Olimar. G&W isnt as much of an issue anymore.) The rest of his matchups with A and B tiers are even or slightly in the opponent favor. His planking, while useful, is match up specific. At times it's riskier then actually fighting on stage. He should drop.
That being said, do I believe he still has untapped potential? Yes I do. I personally think it could stem from learning traps with his down B, Up B's mobility, and learning to abuse Angelic Step to minimize/remove the dead space Pit has between safely firing an arrow/where his short disjoints start, but that is theory. As it stands, untapped potential has been excuse for too much of a boost.
Pit may be full of potential but lacks proof of it.
I agree with the sentiment that currently his tier position is overrated. He lacks something particularly outstanding like the characters above him (and a few below.) While metaknight being his worst match up is quite crippling in tournament play, a number of A and B tier characters give him a lot of trouble as well (Namely Marth and Olimar. G&W isnt as much of an issue anymore.) The rest of his matchups with A and B tiers are even or slightly in the opponent favor. His planking, while useful, is match up specific. At times it's riskier then actually fighting on stage. He should drop.
That being said, do I believe he still has untapped potential? Yes I do. I personally think it could stem from learning traps with his down B, Up B's mobility, and learning to abuse Angelic Step to minimize/remove the dead space Pit has between safely firing an arrow/where his short disjoints start, but that is theory. As it stands, untapped potential has been excuse for too much of a boost.
Pit may be full of potential but lacks proof of it.
dualseeker
Smash Ace
I also agree that his tier placement is overrated and should be moved down. As I'm sure you've heard time and time again, I do believe that Pit has untapped potential. Although we have no proof to prove this. As Gadiel VaStar has said: We have no top tier player that mains Pit. So, I doubt that views of Pit will change until a player starts placing a few spots higher in tournaments.
Although, Pit has a vast amount of abilities that make him above average. He also has one of the most unique recoveries in the game, rarely do characters have the chance to move in any kind of direction and have such mobility while doing so. His projectile is also unlike any other, since it can be charged and can change direction after being shot.
Pit also has very few major weaknesses, other than not being able to recover after being hit out of Up B. Pit is floaty and can escape from most combos easily. He has a very well made aerial game that is better than most other characters. Pit can also space easily with his aerials and Up B (Wing Dashing). He also has more recovery options than other characters, and can glide faster than the other three characters who can.
But, my argument doesn't really have that much weight because all it is now are words. As the others have said before me, we cannot convince people of Pit's potential unless a top tier player picks up Pit, or a Pit main starts placing well in tourneys.
So, as Lenus Altair has already said: We know Pit has potential, but we have no way of proving this at the moment.
Although, Pit has a vast amount of abilities that make him above average. He also has one of the most unique recoveries in the game, rarely do characters have the chance to move in any kind of direction and have such mobility while doing so. His projectile is also unlike any other, since it can be charged and can change direction after being shot.
Pit also has very few major weaknesses, other than not being able to recover after being hit out of Up B. Pit is floaty and can escape from most combos easily. He has a very well made aerial game that is better than most other characters. Pit can also space easily with his aerials and Up B (Wing Dashing). He also has more recovery options than other characters, and can glide faster than the other three characters who can.
But, my argument doesn't really have that much weight because all it is now are words. As the others have said before me, we cannot convince people of Pit's potential unless a top tier player picks up Pit, or a Pit main starts placing well in tourneys.
So, as Lenus Altair has already said: We know Pit has potential, but we have no way of proving this at the moment.