BBR Weekly Character Discussion #4: Pit

[Lord Chair]

I would disagree when you say his high-tier matchups are more disadvantaged than even. Pit goes at least even with Diddy, IC's, Dedede and Pikachu. He also has close matchups with Snake, Lucario and Falco. That is 7/11 that are close matchups or in Pit's favour. The others (Wario, Marth, G&W, Oli) are debatable.


I believe Pit should drop, but nowhere near what you say. Yes alot of his placement is based on potential, but some Pit's such as Koolaid and KiraFlax have been producing results as of lately.

Lol wtf did you smoke.

Pit loses to Diddy.
Pit loses to DDD.
Pit definitely loses to Wario.
Pit definitely loses to Marth.
Pit loses to G&W.

You are a terrible person for putting up the hopes of new Pits, please do teach them the truth: mediocre character is mediocre.

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

Lol wtf did you smoke.

Pit loses to Diddy.
Pit loses to DDD.
Pit definitely loses to Wario.
Pit definitely loses to Marth.
Pit loses to G&W.

You are a terrible person for putting up the hopes of new Pits, please do teach them the truth: mediocre character is mediocre.

Wrong, lol.

I hate when people post their opinioins when they don't even have a valid one. An opinion about Pit is valid only if you've played a good Pit/seen a good Pit or have played Pit in the past, but you have to be good! It's not valid if you've never played Pit and only go by what you hear or what you read. Form your own opinion and think for yourselves.

 

[Ayoub]

Whats wrong about that list? Except for DDD MAYBE.

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

He's wrong about DDD, Marth, and Wario. I'm not quite sure about the others since I haven't been able to form a valid opinion about them. The match-ups I listed are no less than even. Marth is even because while he has range, our arrows out-range him, and can punish the lag of his moveset. Wario is even because our moves(nair, side-b, jab, dair, d-tilt) allow us to combat his superior aerial mobility. DDD is even because we have a great keep-away game(arrows, side-b, nair, dair, fair, jab) that can be used to punish his shield and avoid grabs. If we do happen to get grabbed by DDD, we can stand-up & jab right away. The thing about D3 is that we have to camp him because he beats us in close-range, but we beat him from long-range. We beat him in the air.

 

[Ayoub]

I'm not even going to bother reading after I saw you think Marth/Wario-Pit is even, lmaox100.

Sorry.

 

[Lord Chair]

I'm not even going to bother reading after I saw you think Marth/Wario-Pit is even, lmaox100.

Sorry.

Pretty much that. Aside of the pure hypocrisy and general ignorance, you're a terrible theorycrafter and a terrible debater. You're just terrible in general.

 

[Shaya]

Marth is even because while he has range, our arrows out-range him, and can punish the lag of his moveset.

Pit is in Marth's advantage because whilst Pit has arrows, all of our moves cancel them, and we can punish the lag of his ENTIRE MOVE SET, oh wait, we can punish him even USING his move set, don't need to worry about "lag" (talk about the whole... sword... priority... range...)
Top it off we are one of few characters who can afford to go off stage to gimp him.
We out do you in damage, range, kill power, kill set ups.

Like honestly...
"Marth and Meta Knight are even because while he has range, our fsmash and shield breaker out-range him, and can punish the lag of his moveset"

WAIT, THERE'S MORE.
"We have guaranteed kill sets on MK from a grab (down air spike at 50% or lower) + fair/dancing blade/nair/etc/etc, we have moves that beat tornado".

Wait holy crap, with all of these amazing points I bring up, why isn't it in Marth's advantage?-

-

I'm angry because your deducing skills, arguing prowess and reasoning are honestly sub par. Its painful to think character boards still throw out match up ratios of their mid/low tier characters by "we can punish this" as evens.

 

[Nitrix]

Lol wtf did you smoke.

Pit loses to Diddy.
Pit loses to DDD.
Pit definitely loses to Wario.
Pit definitely loses to Marth.
Pit loses to G&W.

You are a terrible person for putting up the hopes of new Pits, please do teach them the truth: mediocre character is mediocre.

Pit doesn't lose to Diddy, go ask AlphaZealot if you want a good Diddy's opinion and he will tell you the exact same thing. Its a close battle.


Pit vs Dedede isn't a loss for Pit either. Dedede is a huge target and isn't that mobile, this means he gets camped and eats Pit's multi hit attacks. Angel Ring really punishes his spotdodges too. Pit just has to camp like a jerk and space well.


Vid of Coney vs Earth at Apex:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwsUWpZKfIg


Wario and Marth I agree with.

 

[Afro Boy2000]

I feel like shaya has a grudge against Pit...

Ur right about the Marth matchup tho

 

[Shaya]

I just like knowing about this game...
and tbh the amount of confusion, bias, propaganda, etc etc, relating to pit is just over all so confusing and mind numbing that it causes me great pain.

Like... I want to know what this character can do,
but I can't trust the word of anyone,
nor can I see it myself.
****sux.

A LOT of things I've seen are arguably not too great, but of course its a multitude of ability that makes a character; only Falco/MK can be like "lol we have one thing that destroys all of yuuuz" [yet they have a lot of other good things going for them too]. Just bleh.

Pit is like the adopted child who was told he was adopted later on, and then suddenly gets bamboozled with "what is my life meant to be?" "who are my true parents" "how do I feel about my family now"

 

[Admiral Pit]

Let me put my small input on what I'm hearing about, which seems to be about certain matchups.

Pit's number is on the left.

-Diddy (45-55)
Let's face it. Pretty much every character, even MK, will have a difficult time against Diddy's superb ground game including the naners (some more than others). Pit's case is having a hard time to approach, both air and ground approach (ground more than air), and Pit's general option is camping on or near the ledge to avoid most of Diddy's naner game combination. It doesn't matter even if Pit has reflectors, or at least it comes down to the prediction and mindgames between the Pit and Diddy in this case.

-DDD (can't say yet, but the 3 most common ratios are 45:55 to 55:45. atm, I see it at 50:50)
D3 gots the range, weight, good enough power, the CG, fair gimping capability, and Pit has a better projectile, a "temporary" CG which starts at low percentage, and his own fair gimping capability. I really don't say much about this one, but it also can be stage dependent.

-Wario (40:60)
Wario's brilliant air camping (mostly because of his good air mobility) makes it hard for Pit to hit him with arrows, and him being floaty makes him pretty much immune to F-throw CGs by Pit (unless you trap him). 2 of Pit's attributes are camping, and gimping, and Wario's air camping capability and good recovery make it very difficult for Pit to use his attributes effectively compared to what he could do to lesser characters.

-Marth (40:60)
Ah yes, Marth's long + wide range easily beating Pit's mediocre range, with the exception of Pit having a projectile that Marth can deal with easily at times. Pit has a hard time approaching, and he's limited in the camping section, so this obviously is a hard matchup for him.

-G&W (40:60)
Back then, some used to think this was the worst matchup for Pit after MK, but even when the G&W B-air was exploited, that doesn't change much. G&W will always be difficult for Pit, no matter how we look at it. Don't forget the bucket, which Pit players have to be careful not to fill, though if Pit fills the bucket, he can shoot a bit more freely against G&W, though G&W has priority over arrows easily, especially using his B-air.


Note that these are just SHORT summaries, not full ones. I actually don't think the Pit players discussed Dedede fully yet before on these boards.
Next, the people should be giving out full summaries, not no 1 or 2-sentence summaries, since it lacks very important details and all.

 

[Shaya]

Yeah... I don't think the d3 match up is too bad.

 

[Meru.]

I feel like shaya has a grudge against Pit...

He probably doesnt really. He's actually voicing things that a lot of people think, including myself.
I still know how people felt when Pit moved up 4 spots while even moving down would have been better :l.

 

[Ayoub]

Pit-Diddy is not in Pits favour, you can't put that whole matchup in Pits favour because he has 2 reflectors. If the diddy plays smart, he can punish any attempt of you trying to side-b/down-b. 505 to 55-45 imo.

 

[Lord Chair]

Rubbish, rubbish, absolute rubbish.

Really, wow. You note how Pit is practically stuck on the ledge, but in your opinion that's no worse than 45-55, what? Really, what? Even though he's safe, there's nothing Pit can achieve by ledgecamping.

I'd agree on the other MU ratios, but not because of the extremely detailed writeups you gave on them...

 

[Meru.]

Pit-Diddy is not in Pits favour, you can't put that whole matchup in Pits favour because he has 2 reflectors. If the diddy plays smart, he can punish any attempt of you trying to side-b/down-b. 505 to 55-45 imo.

He said it was 55-45 Diddy too...

 

[Ayoub]

I didn't say he didnt, I'm just giving my opinion. xD

 

[Nitrix]

A LOT of things I've seen are arguably not too great, but of course its a multitude of ability that makes a character; only Falco/MK can be like "lol we have one thing that destroys all of yuuuz" [yet they have a lot of other good things going for them too]. Just bleh

This is very true. Pit has no overpowered strategy that he can bring out in every match and win with. Pit is a fairly balanced character, and only is successful when he is well-rounded enough to fully embrace his versatility.

Pit can only become good if every strategy is investigated to the fullest. If every seemingly mediocre tool (like arrows) is pushed to the limit until it becomes a helpful asset. People just don't do this very often because trying to find uses and implement seemingly mediocre moves isn't seen as very much fun. Pit requires dedication.

Pit is like the adopted child who was told he was adopted later on, and then suddenly gets bamboozled with "what is my life meant to be?" "who are my true parents" "how do I feel about my family now"

Really, wow. You note how Pit is practically stuck on the ledge, but in your opinion that's no worse than 45-55, what? Really, what? Even though he's safe, there's nothing Pit can achieve by ledgecamping.

I'd agree on the other MU ratios, but not because of the extremely detailed writeups you gave on them...

The size of Admiral Pit's summaries feel appropriate for this thread. Believe me, Admiral Pit can write much much more than what he did. Your sarcasm isn't needed here.

 

[Lord Chair]

Wrong, my sarcasm is always relevant. Disapproval has never been and will never be a proper argument, so you could've left that out of your limited post.

 

[Katana_koden]

Pit is just very versatile. Regardless of most of his matchup, nothing really shuts pit down. Yes, mk mk mk.. blah what ever. Any character's advancement in their meta game doesn't shut pit down for what ever they do. A lot of characters have trouble getting around walls and or defensive techniques which does really bother pit with the knowledge of the matchup.

Say pit vs diddy. First why does jiggly puff have an advantage over diddy? Well diddy is more reliant on his ground game. Jiggs stay in the air. Dash attack countered to rest. Maybe some other aspects. Pit easily covers the the air camping ability. Dash attack?, jab infinite has almost no lag afterwards, so throw a banana? Back to air camping. Set up a wall, banana and peanut gun? We can arrow it. Not only can most characters throw projectiles, but pit can and use it effectively.

State good reasons why diddy should have the advantage as opposed to 50 -50, If not better if you include off stage, gimping, etc. And please don't be biased about how good a character does in tourneys.

 

[tibs7]

The Deal with diddy and pit is that diddy us forced to approach, which is pretty big in brawl. Pit can Gimp
diddy, is able to do quick % with a few good reads and can sometimes pull off **** banana stuff. But Arrow spam isn't to great since diddy is so fast anyway. The mu is in diddy's favor slightly like what people have been saying.

 

[Katana_koden]

Arrow spam is almost low lvl play... And not the only thing pit has. Pit can also **** strings with nice reads that even usually lead to off stage. I have to say the match up still stands at 50-50 imo.

 

[Coffee™]

Pit doesn't lose to Diddy. It's either even or slightly his favor.

Pit beats D3 like 6-4

Pit loses to Wario either 6-4 or 65-35 if the Wario knows what to do and Pit can't ledgecamp.

Pit loses to marth 45:55, nothing worse. Pit clearly wins if he can ledgecamp.

Pit beats GW.

Man you guys.....

I should play Pit more in tourney again...

 

[Nitrix]

Arrow spam is typically a strategy that works on bad wifi players, and is easily powershielded offline. Charging arrows can still deal damage and usually causes more shield damage than spamming. Plus it helps mindgames. It is generally superior than downright spam.


The only real time to ever spam arrows is when someone is offstage and you want to gimp them via arrows. Some characters like Marth really hate this since their recoveries are fairly precise and arrows wreck their spacing.

 

[Coffee™]

Arrow spam is typically a strategy that works on bad wifi players, and is easily powershielded offline. Charging arrows can still deal damage and usually causes more shield damage than spamming. Plus it helps mindgames. It is generally superior than downright spam.


The only real time to ever spam arrows is when someone is offstage and you want to gimp them via arrows. Some characters like Marth really hate this since their recoveries are fairly precise and arrows wreck their spacing.

Hitting Marth with Arrows offstage doesn't really do anything. It either helps him recover since they pop him up or they won't hit because Marth recovers low.

 

[Suyon]

Actually, unless you're very good with using arrows and knock your opponents 5 times with arrows while they are off stage they are good as gone. I have done this but I'm assuming you guys have done so as well.

 

[Nikenick]

Hitting Marth with Arrows offstage doesn't really do anything. It either helps him recover since they pop him up or they won't hit because Marth recovers low.

Wait, what?

First of all, it depends on the % Marth has.
Second, you can gimp marth with arrow locking him offstage just like any character.
Third, your arrows do damage, why wouldn't you want to give him damage that can't get punished?

You're right if you mean that it's hard to gimp marth, because it is. Marth has a hard time recovering if you hit him with an arrow while he jumps, so he won't get closer to the stage and only has up b. That's why a smart marth saves his jump and then up b's. But then you can still edgehog him or do a FF bair offstage. It's all a guessing game. It's not impossible to gimp marth, it's just hard.

But you certainly should just keep shooting arrows, since it does do something in your advantage.

 

[Coffee™]

Second, you can gimp marth with arrow locking him offstage just like any character.

Any smart Marth will just Fair the arrows, then fastfall to recover low...

Third, your arrows do damage, why wouldn't you want to give him damage that can't get punished?

You're only going to really get damage on Marth from arrows offstage if you send Marth far enough out. However, at that distance it's easier to edgehog his recovery or simply gimp him with Ledgedrop Bair or Ledgedrop MS.

You're right if you mean that it's hard to gimp marth, because it is. Marth has a hard time recovering if you hit him with an arrow while he jumps,

Thats obvious, but Marth shouldn't really need to jump at any range where an arrow can hit him.

 

[Admiral Pit]

Pit doesn't lose to Diddy. It's either even or slightly his favor.

I don't think you realize about how difficult Diddy's ground game (with the naners) is to Pit. Pit can't camp all the time, for it's only a matter of time til Pit has to land, and Diddy will be all over him, and Diddy's fast as well, and thus can approach quickly. Even if Pit stays around the ledge, it can't do everything.

Pit beats D3 like 6-4

I don't even see this being true at all. The furthest I would have went and said 55:45 Pit, but no. I don't even think the Pit boards have EVER discussed D3 yet, and therefore, I'd rather collect more info before making a ratio, but atm, I would say 50:50 based on what I know.

Pit loses to Wario either 6-4 or 65-35 if the Wario knows what to do and Pit can't ledgecamp.

Let's just say 60:40 Wario, and you should be giving out details on the matchup, and why Pit loses, aside from Wario's air camping + being hard to gimp Wario.

Pit loses to marth 45:55, nothing worse. Pit clearly wins if he can ledgecamp.

Putting it at 60:40 Marth until I get highly-detailed and possibly accurate information. I myself don't have much info on him, but hoping it ever shows up. Nikenick, however, did tell me that Europe has a ton of Marth there, and he'll be helping me on this one.

Pit beats GW.

Whoa, Whoa, Whoa! *trips* Tell me I am not seeing that, tell me that was sarcasm. I thought I was delusional when I read that, but I realize I was wrong.

But honestly, you are the only Pit (if you still are a Pit) that I've seen that ever said that. In all seriousness, I really don't know how you are going to prove or explain this "Pit beats G&W" thing, and none of that stupid 1 or 2-sentence explanation garbage is going to help at all.
I still can't believe I read that... GL explaining why Pit beats G&W, since G&W is actually one of Pit's tougher matchups, and the majority would agree one it. So again, seriously, EXPLAIN your reasoning on why you think this! I am actually curious on what you have to say.

Man you guys.....

I should play Pit more in tourney again...

I'm sorry, but I am not going to believe this. It's bad enough that it is seldom that a player that uses Pit ONLY places well (with the exception of Kool Aid being 9th at Viridian a few months ago, I think), and I just don't see you being able to do that, especially when you think Pit beats D3, and more importantly G&W (who isn't a common sight, so not ). At the same time, one should try placing well constantly with Pit only, which is almost impossible. At least the Japanese have been making more progress, but again, they have different styles than we do.

 

[Ayoub]

I lol'd @ ravyn. o:

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

I wouldn't doubt R@vyn; he knows Pit, and has used him solely in tournament longer than most of you here. Also, he plays in a tough region, so I'm sure he's seen more than you have. He almost beat Gnes & Ally @ Wintergamefest a while back...

 

[Nikenick]

I have to agree with Admiral here, except against Marth, that's 45/55 imo.

 

[Ayoub]

I wouldn't doubt R@vyn; he knows Pit, and has used him solely in tournament longer than most of you here. Also, he plays in a tough region, so I'm sure he's seen more than you have. He almost beat Gnes & Ally @ Wintergamefest a while back...

I took a game from Ally should everyone listen to me now and not doubt me.

 

[Admiral Pit]

I wouldn't doubt R@vyn; he knows Pit, and has used him solely in tournament longer than most of you here. Also, he plays in a tough region, so I'm sure he's seen more than you have. He almost beat Gnes & Ally @ Wintergamefest a while back...

The big problem(s) with it is that he's just saying a ratio, without putting a good amount of reason behind it. If only he would provide a lot of detailed info that is also quite accurate...
Next, even if he almost beat really good players, that doesn't make em worth listening just because of that. For matchups, you need knowledge, experience (it doesn't all have to be offline experience either), and probably something else I forgot, but you should get my point here.
Plus, when reading his one comment with the ratios, it's as if he's thinking he's all that, and if he knew Pit as well as you say he does, we should be having many of our matchups done by now, and he should be placing well constantly, hopefully by using Pit only.

Until I see actual contribution that is at detailed + somewhat close to being accurate at least from him, like I've been trying to do for some time back then, then I just don't have much faith in him.

 

[Afro Boy2000]

Come on now, Ravyn's CLEARLY too cool to put up massive amounts of info. But acctually I agree with everything he said expect that Pit beats G&W. I would put that as even, it really isnt THAT bad.

 

[Admiral Pit]

So you're saying you agree with him saying that Pit beats D3 60:40... Not gonna happen. the only possible "60:40 in Pit's favor" matchups would be against Bowser and DK (not Diddy), and Pit still doesn't beat Diddy. It would actually help a bit to experience the matchup first-hand sometimes, whether you experience it from both sides or not.

 

[Coffee™]

I'm not going to discuss anything in depth here anymore. I did a lot before most of you newer players even got on these boards. I probably tried to help out these boards the most in general. However, most of your posts make me realize it's still a waste of time talking to most of you about Pit related stuff.

I'm hardly biased towards this character, I just say it how I see and play it. If anyone wants to know or ask me anything they can pm or aim me.

 

[Nitrix]

I'm not going to discuss anything in depth here anymore. I did a lot before most of you newer players even got on these boards. I probably tried to help out these boards the most in general. However, most of your posts make me realize it's still a waste of time talking to most of you about Pit related stuff.

This is pretty depressing due to the fact that you are one of the only Pit players in the BBR. You are supposed to be one of the most knowledgeable players regarding Pit and yet you refuse to provide us with any explanations for your opinions because you think we are hopeless? Thats terrible.

The Pit boards are for discussion and improvement, and having a "my way or the highway" philosophy will get us nowhere.

 

[dskank]

I'm not going to discuss anything in depth here anymore. I did a lot before most of you newer players even got on these boards. I probably tried to help out these boards the most in general. However, most of your posts make me realize it's still a waste of time talking to most of you about Pit related stuff.

I'm hardly biased towards this character, I just say it how I see and play it. If anyone wants to know or ask me anything they can pm or aim me.

i agree about the gw mu only its even imo even though we die at like 80% to dsmash

thanks for the past help u did ur best to advance pit, gave ur opinoin on the character mu then got flamed for it because people on these boards worship numbers

u were the best pit in fl so itll be an acoplishment when i beat ur falco if i ever see u tourny ;]

 

[Coffee™]

This is pretty depressing due to the fact that you are one of the only Pit players in the BBR. You are supposed to be one of the most knowledgeable players regarding Pit and yet you refuse to provide us with any explanations for your opinions because you think we are hopeless? Thats terrible.

The Pit boards are for discussion and improvement, and having a "my way or the highway" philosophy will get us nowhere.

I'm the only Pit player in the BBR and have been for a long time. I'm refusing because my opinions are ignored when I do present them. I do however help anyone that asks me directly. The Pit boards only really have themselves to blame. A lot of the better Pits at the time like Rogue, Sagemoon and Esca tried to help other players here out and words more or less fell on deaf ears so why waste our time?

u were the best pit in fl so itll be an acoplishment when i beat ur falco if i ever see u tourny ;]

Bring it ;p