BBR Weekly Character Discussion #4: Pit

[Admiral Pit]

Well, I know I'm probably gonna be bashed for this, but let's see how I do.

Well, took me a while to read much of the stuff, so I'll try to do things in a certain order here.

For Pit's tier placing (which is based on tourney results like some said), the main reason why he's where he's at now was the big boost from Koolaid's performance at the Viridian tourney a few months ago (I think 9th outta 100+), along with Vex's 25th outta 100+ helping out a bit as well. However, I won't be surprised if he drops down the list due to the lack of Pit players performing well.
So Pit's underrated as a character to me, but overrated if you were going by his tier placement.

As for Pit's matchups against those who are above and around his tier placement.. (note that Pit's number is on the left)

-MK (40:60)
-Snake (45:55)
-Diddy (45:55)
-Falco (45:55)
-ICs (Not sure yet)
-Marth (40:60)
-Wario (40:60)
-D3 (Not sure again)
-Pika (Not sure...)
-Olimar (40:60)
-Lucario (50:50 to 45:55)
-G&W (40:60)
-TL (50:50 to 45:55)
-ZSS (Not decided)
-Kirby (45:55)

So obviously, most of the characters above him either have an advantage (or a slight one), or are around even with him,

This is probably a close estimate that I can give you on most that I know about. However, another problem is that many Pit players haven't been working on matchup discussions completely, as a few other characters boards have. So we ourselves need to do some research on that with meaningful reasons and such.

Next, like a few have said, I don't think some of the people around here know Pit that much, and though that lgl thing still limits Pit, he overall,he isn't bad, but not way up there like some of the others are, but good enough to stay above half of the tier list.
And I'm outta things to say, except let's kick this whole "I only play wifi" thing aside and actually be serious with discussing this stuff.

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

Well, I know I'm probably gonna be bashed for this, but let's see how I do.

Well, took me a while to read much of the stuff, so I'll try to do things in a certain order here.

For Pit's tier placing (which is based on tourney results like some said), the main reason why he's where he's at now was the big boost from Koolaid's performance at the Viridian tourney a few months ago (I think 9th outta 100+), along with Vex's 25th outta 100+ helping out a bit as well. However, I won't be surprised if he drops down the list due to the lack of Pit players performing well.
So Pit's underrated as a character to me, but overrated if you were going by his tier placement.

As for Pit's matchups against those who are above and around his tier placement.. (note that Pit's number is on the left)

-MK (40:60)
-Snake (45:55)
-Diddy (45:55)
-Falco (45:55)
-ICs (Not sure yet)
-Marth (40:60)
-Wario (40:60)
-D3 (Not sure again)
-Pika (Not sure...)
-Olimar (40:60)
-Lucario (50:50 to 45:55)
-G&W (40:60)
-TL (50:50 to 45:55)
-ZSS (Not decided)
-Kirby (45:55)

So obviously, most of the characters above him either have an advantage (or a slight one), or are around even with him,

This is probably a close estimate that I can give you on most that I know about. However, another problem is that many Pit players haven't been working on matchup discussions completely, as a few other characters boards have. So we ourselves need to do some research on that with meaningful reasons and such.

Next, like a few have said, I don't think some of the people around here know Pit that much, and though that lgl thing still limits Pit, he overall,he isn't bad, but not way up there like some of the others are, but good enough to stay above half of the tier list.
And I'm outta things to say, except let's kick this whole "I only play wifi" thing aside and actually be serious with discussing this stuff.

I like to hear what you have to say

I don't agree w/ the matchup numbers. Mine is like this:

- MK (40:60)
-Snake (50:50)
-Diddy (45:55)
-Falco (50:50)
-ICs (45:55)
-Marth (55:45)
-Wario (55:45)
-D3 (60:40)
-Pika (60:40)
-Olimar (50:50)
-Lucario (50:50)
-G&W (45:60)
-TL (50:50)
-ZSS (55:45)
-Kirby (45:55)

Pit has trouble vs small characters except Pikachu because he outranges him like Marth, but not quite as much. His upair goes through Pika's dair, so most of his attacks outprioritze Pikas

 

[Kool Aid]

what i experienced..

- MK (40:60)
-Snake (50:50)
-Diddy (45:55)
-Falco (50:50)
-ICs (45:55)
-Marth (45:5)
-Wario (55:45)
-D3 (60:40)
-Pika (60:40)
-Olimar (50:50)
-Lucario (50:50)
-G&W (45:55)
-TL (55:45)
-ZSS (50:50)
-Kirby (45:55)

 

[Y.b.M.]

I'd like to say that I will be assisting in helping Pit climb higher on the Tier List, I've beaten quite a few good people while practicing with hiim... When I start back going to tournaments (since I'm on Hiatus)...he will be used...Often!

-MK (40:60)
-Snake (45:55)
-Diddy (45:55)
-Falco (45:55)
-ICs (40:60)
-Marth (50:50)
-Wario (40:60)
-D3 (45:55)
-Pika (45:55)
-Olimar (40:60)
-Lucario (50:50)
-G&W (35:65)
-TL (50:50 to 45:55)
-ZSS (45:55)
-Kirby (45:55)

I have spoken!

 

[Lenus Altair]

Since I havent thrown out match up yet I alluded to some, here's my list:

- MK (40:60)
-Snake (50:50) or (45:55)
-Diddy (50:50)
-Falco (45:55)
-ICs (50:50)
-Marth (40:60)
-Wario (45:55)
-D3 (50:50)
-Pika (50:50)
-Olimar (40:60)
-Lucario (50:50)
-G&W (45:55)
-TL (50:50)
-ZSS (55:45) or (60:40)
-Kirby (45:55)

 

[Lenus Altair]

Sorry double post...

 

[dualseeker]

I would also like to contribute. Even if it helps only a little bit.

MK-(40:60)
Snake-(50:50) to (45:55)
Diddy-(50:50)
Falco-(45:55)
IC's-(45:55)
Marth-(45:55)
Wario-(55:45)
DDD-(60:40)
Pikachu-(55:45)
Olimar-(40:60)
Lucario-(50:50)
G&W-(45:55)
TL-(50:50)
ZSS-(60:40) to (55:45)
Kirby-(45:55)

 

[Admiral Pit]

Based on what we see here on the ratios of others so far, we practically only agree on MK and Kirby ratios. These different ratios and opinions has kept us to the point where we've gone back and forth on matchup discussions, hence, we restated matchup discussions 2-3 times. We also have lacked completing many matchups either because they don't have experience (inb4wifiisntexperience, but seriously...), not enough ppl willing to help out, some ppl being a bit biased from time to time, or simply because we have different opinions and mindsets that sometimes clash with each other.

Now why do I mention this matchup thing? It is because this is one of the things that fall into the part where I said that some of the ppl who already commented in the thread may not know much about Pit (not just because he isn't really a common character out there). And I'm outta things to say atm.

 

[DMG]

Pit mains think they beat Wario
Surely you jest?

I think his matchups are like this:

MK: 35:65
Snake: 40:60 / 45:55
Diddy: (entirely depends on LGL/if there is one. Without a LGL Pit cleanly beats Diddy)
Falco: Same as Diddy
IC's: ^^^
Marth: 4:6
Wario: 4:6 / 45:55
Dedede: 50:50/55:45 (LGL also affects this)
Pika: 50:50
Olimar: 45:55
Lucario: 45:55
G&W: 4:6
TL: 55:45
ZSS: 55:45/50:50
Kirby: 55:45

Most of his matchups tend to hover around the evenish area. 55:45 or 45:55 in most cases. He's not a very prolific/dynamic character when it comes to matchups, similar to Marth. He has more bad matchups against him than Marth obviously.

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

Most of his matchups tend to hover around the evenish area. 55:45 or 45:55 in most cases. He's not a very prolific/dynamic character when it comes to matchups, similar to Marth. He has more bad matchups against him than Marth obviously.

That's why he belongs in A tier(not the next tier list) but in future tier list. He doesn't have any horribly disadvantaged matchup save for MK which isn't a total mess. He's pretty much on equal footings w/ Marth IMO when it comes to tier placement.

Spoiler

I think he should be under Falco, but above Wario/ICs which is between #4-6 on the tier list.

 

[Katana_koden]

Why is kirby 45:55 against pit?

From my experience

MK-(40:60)
Snake-(50:50) to (55:45)
Diddy-(50:50)
Falco-(45:55)
IC's-(50:50)
Marth-(50:50)
Wario-(55:45)
DDD-(60:40)
Pikachu-(55:45)
Olimar-(45:55)
Lucario-(50:50)
G&W-(50:50)
TL-(50:50)
ZSS-(60:40)
Kirby-(55:45)
Fox-(55:45)
Samus- (55:45)
Ike-(60:40)
Bowser-(55:45)
Wolf-(55:45)

I rarely loose to any except MK, Falco, Snake, not diddy anymore..

 

[Coffee™]

MK: 35:65
Snake: 45:55
Diddy: depends on lgl
Falco: 50:50
IC's: depends on lgl
Marth: 50:50
Wario: 40:60
Dedede: 60:40
Pika: 55:45
Olimar: 45:55
Lucario: 50:50
G&W: 60:40
TL: 45:55
ZSS: 60:40
Kirby: 55:45

 

[DMG]

That's why he belongs in A tier(not the next tier list) but in future tier list. He doesn't have any horribly disadvantaged matchup save for MK which isn't a total mess. He's pretty much on equal footings w/ Marth IMO when it comes to tier placement.

Spoiler

I think he should be under Falco, but above Wario/ICs which is between #4-6 on the tier list.

That's wayyy too high. Going mostly even with top tiers is okay (most of his top tier matchups do not favor him though), but he also is unlike Marth who cleanly beats out a lot of people below him. Marth has a ton of 6:4ish matchups with mid tiers below him that Pit doesn't have. Most of his matchups, barring the lowest tiers, are around even or just a few 6:4 in his favor.

Marth is good because he has evenish matchups, mostly favoring him, with the top tiers. He also pulls out some easy 6:4's like Wario, G&W, Pika, Olimar, etc. And then those below him would be lucky to go even. Pit's not near that level, he's just not.

MK: 35:65
Snake: 45:55
Diddy: depends on lgl
Falco: 50:50
IC's: depends on lgl
Marth: 50:50
Wario: 40:60
Dedede: 60:40
Pika: 55:45
Olimar: 45:55
Lucario: 50:50
G&W: 60:40
TL: 45:55
ZSS: 60:40
Kirby: 55:45

Sounds pretty good. Marth seems a bit bad for Pit, and G&W too, but that's about it. Looks very accurate.

 

[Pierce7d]

Marth ***** the balls off Wario worse than 6:4. Everytime I play that MU, I think it gets worse and worse for Wario. Possible 7:3 at higher levels.

Also, while Marth sucks, he actually is underrated in terms of his MUs with the cast below him. Out of politeness, and the skill (and balls) required to play Marth properly, he actually destroys a fair share of the cast.

Pit isn't even close to as limiting as Marth, and actually struggles in some low tier MUs, as well as having a couple of horrible MUs.

 

[DMG]

It's supposed to be 65:35 if the Marth plays it correctly, but so far I've not found one that is willing or able lol. Mike plays it near perfect, for the first 3 minutes.

 

[Admiral Pit]

Why is kirby 45:55 against pit?

From my experience

MK-(40:60)
Snake-(50:50) to (55:45)
Diddy-(50:50)
Falco-(45:55)
IC's-(50:50)
Marth-(50:50)
Wario-(55:45)
DDD-(60:40)
Pikachu-(55:45)
Olimar-(45:55)
Lucario-(50:50)
G&W-(50:50)
TL-(50:50)
ZSS-(60:40)
Kirby-(55:45)
Fox-(55:45)
Samus- (55:45)
Ike-(60:40)
Bowser-(55:45)
Wolf-(55:45)

I rarely loose to any except MK, Falco, Snake, not diddy anymore..

I forgot to say that Pit's number is on the left, or did I say that already?

As for Marth, he's 60:40 on Pit, no more, no less.

 

[Katana_koden]

That's like comparing marth with mk. 60:40? No way, he doesn't punish us in air and off stage as much.

Marth has great combat ability, but don't auto degrade pits abilities against his. Pit can at least escape marth pressuring and fight him better. He is still light and not short, so we have a lot easier time targeting him. I say 50:50 because marth doesn't bother me unless I try challenging his spacing, which is bad. 55:50 is okay but, he doesn't really kill us as it is to kill him.

 

[Shaya]

Comparing Marth to MK...
mm...

Maybe because you severely over rate your match up with MK if you place it at 40:60.
Marth mains are successful in tournament play even when the metagame is meta knight infested. That match up is 40:60 at ... best.

There's no way that a terrible character like pit
blah blah blah

See how I use my logic the same way you do "That's like comparing marth with mk"

IF I'M TO USE THAT LOGIC THAT YOU FREELY USE, THAN I CAN HONESTLY STATE THAT YOU OVER RATE YOUR MATCH UPS.

 

[Katana_koden]

you may be right,

but I'm stating my experience. I don't argue, and you got me if we went into logic.

hmm is meta underrated to us? I wonder. No trollin.

 

[DMG]

Put it this way:

Characters better than Pit can manage to lose to MK 4:6 Saying Pit also only loses 4:6 is suggesting he is as good as them when he isn't. Sure, you have to factor in matchup specific tools, but what does Pit have that brings him up to the 4:6 level against MK? He doesn't have the top tier tools Diddy/Snake/Falco/IC's/etc have, so what does he have specifically in that matchup to make him appear as if he handles MK as well as those guys? He really doesn't have much. Most of his regular aspects are negated or hampered against MK. Offstage game, camping in general, ground game, etc. You still have all of the regular problems, landing a Kill move, racking up damage, pressure from below you, etc.

I would find it hard to believe that Pit can go 4:6 against MK when people way above him can do so with better tools. More realistic is 35:65 or even 3:7.

 

[Katana_koden]

Its not that pit can't fight mk. His defensive options are very low. Mk can easily put someone into defense so it happens alot.
So how would you put it? If you can do semi okay vs Mk but when you put into defense or something, its very hard to regain your posture.

He's not Ike or wolf or bowser, where when offstage he's completely dead. Or onstage to not completely be able to avoid his attacks. So I don't he should be that low in that match up.

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

I disagree w/ a lot of some of the non-Pit players, but it's always good to hear from a different perspective.

If your reading some of the comments, don't get discouraged if you play or want to main Pit. He's not really as bad as people say he is, and most aren't saying he's bad, but that he's not good. A lot of smash talk is theoretical and a small amount is factual. Every opinion about this game will be different because it's all based on a player's experience. If one does not have a postive perspective or experience w/ a said character, then most likely, they'll think they are bad or not as good as people claim them to be, and that's a natural response. Noone can blaim X player for thinking the way he does because that's all he's seen.

It's just like a child who is raised up in an environment w/ only negativity and poverty. Even when they mature, they do not have enjoyable life experiences to take with them, and they may think that everyone lives like them until someone introduces them to another type of lifestyle where they can get an opportunity to see that "the grass is greener on the other side."

I think that's where Pit is at this moment. He isn't a developed character and lots of players within the smash community have negative experiences with Pit like...HIS RECOVERY SUCKS! HE's so easy to gimp! or HIS ARROWS ARE SO EASY to POWERSHIELD! Omg, all you got to do is dash shield his arrows and punish the lag. These examples are both "myths" and "facts." They're myths anf facts because it totally depends on the player. Sometimes Pit players may have to resort to using up-b, and depending on how well they are w/ the move dictates how successful they can be at finding ways around the opponent's gimp attempts. Arrows aren't quite so easy to powershield, because we can change the timing of them, but if you watch/hear for when he releases, then I guess it could be easy to powershield.

Anyways, Pit theory talk is getting old from both people who are knowledgeable/non-knowledgeable about the character. Nothing will change people's attitude about the character until a positive "role-model" comes into play. Almost every other character has that except Pit. Don't believe the hype and trust your guts. Pit will win a national and he is A-tier material.

 

[DMG]

Pit will never win a noteworthy national. MK won't let him

GG end of discussion

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

Pit will never win a noteworthy national. MK won't let him

GG end of discussion

"Never say Never"

 

[Admiral Pit]

We know that so many ppl resort to MK as if they can't win or get far without him, so of course there isn't much hope. Maybe if more ppl would just lay off the MK bandwagon, Pit would have a better chance.
Also, having smart Pit users (maybe a better quantity too) would boost the chances just a bit, but Pit can only do so much against the constant top tier usage... *points at MK, Snake, Marth, Falco, occasional Diddy, etc.* ...and especially with a lgl limiting him, as many others have said before.

 

[dualseeker]

I agree with Gadiel.

One of the reasons why Pit hasn't won a national is because there is no top tier player that mains him, like people have said before. Until then, we can only argue like this. From my own personal experience, I feel that the MK Match Up isn't hopeless for Pit.

But, like Admiral says, Pit can't do much against the top tiers. So that also hinders him a little.

 

[DMG]

NEVER!

I will personally pay the Pit that wins a noteworthy National $100. In person with a Pink Tutu on. And a Marth Hair Wig.

 

[DMG]

NEVER!

I will personally pay the Pit that wins a noteworthy National $100. In person with a Pink Tutu on. And a Marth Hair Wig.

 

[DMG]

NEVER!

I will personally pay the Pit that wins a noteworthy National $100. In person with a Pink Tutu on. And a Marth Hair Wig.

 

[Nikenick]

NEVER!

I will personally pay the Pit that wins a noteworthy National $100. In person with a Pink Tutu on. And a Marth Hair Wig.

I'll remember that.

And lmfao @ you saying that MKit = 70:30

 

[Shaya]

Hi nikenick,

my name is meta knight,
how do you want to play our tournament match?
Oh, LGL OFF?

Well then, don't mind me, but I completely destroy you on stage before you can get a percent lead, then you have no safe options to stop me from planking!

Oh, LGL ON!?
Well then, call your ledge grab number, because my name is mew2king and when I'm at a percent lead I'll just chill on that ledge until you do something stupid or let me back on, and still win within 8 minutes; because you don't have any way to actually reach time!

Oh and Pit...
mmm, Pit is a character that isn't necessarily limited by "game gays" (cgs, infinites, etc), so anyone who's reading this and is going
"OMG PITS GONNA GET INSTA *****!!!!!"
This... may be true... but Pit is still a character who feasibly can win from outplaying the opponent.

 

[Coffee™]

Sounds pretty good. Marth seems a bit bad for Pit, and G&W too, but that's about it. Looks very accurate.

Marth may be 45:55 but I honestly don't think it's any worse than that. The G&W matchup I think is clearly his favor, he kills easier, generally racks up damage faster and GW isn't that good at gimping him.

As for you other Pit players, you are seriously overrating the character. Yes he is good but you have to accept his weaknesses.

One of the reasons why Pit hasn't won a national is because there is no top tier player that mains him, like people have said before. Until then, we can only argue like this.

This isn't true. I know many good people have tried him and failed. There is a reason why better players don't main him. He decreases your chance of winning considerably as long as MK is around.

From my own personal experience, I feel that the MK Match Up isn't hopeless for Pit.

I used to think that. Then I started using MK for Pit dittos and really saw for myself how bad it is. A lot of MK mains simply don't know the character well enough at higher levels to exploit him in the matchup which is why it may seem closer than it really is when you play.

But, like Admiral says, Pit can't do much against the top tiers. So that also hinders him a little

Pit actually does fine against most top tiers and outright beats some with no lgl. MK and Wario will always be pretty big problems for him though.

NEVER!

I will personally pay the Pit that wins a noteworthy National $100. In person with a Pink Tutu on. And a Marth Hair Wig.

You have no idea how bad I wish I could win one with Pit so I could see this xD.

 

[Nikenick]

Hey Shaya,

My name is Pit.
Keep underestimating me please so I can beat you onstage with a ledge grab rule, since I don't necessarily need to plank to win.

 

[Ayoub]

Yes, because Pits onstage game > MKs onstage game, obviously.

 

[Lord Chair]

Lol@Nick back in July.

Lol@Nick present day, too.

 

[Meru.]

Oh please, this 'Pit has so much potential, he's just underrepresented, thats why his results are so bad!' sickens me. Its barely an excuse. We might as well say that for every character in the game. And not only that, Pit's placing on Ankoku's list is 25th. Really, if he were 16th, this excuse might have been a little bit acceptable, but 12 spots lower than your actual tier list position? Yeah sure.

Not only that, but the word I have read the most is 'potential'. As many have said already, this isnt a tier list of the future, its a tier list of the current metagame. His potential is heavily overrated. Every character has potential anyway.

And his match-ups versus high tiers are more often disadvantaged than actually even, and not only that, it also seems that MK is his worst match-up! This makes his tier placing even more ridiculous.

Really, people say that Pit should now drop around 4 spots, but even that I find generous. IMO he should be where Fox is now, because he isnt doing any better, he just isn't convincing enough and I found the characters above him simply better.

 

[Nitrix]

Oh please, this 'Pit has so much potential, he's just underrepresented, thats why his results are so bad!' sickens me. Its barely an excuse. We might as well say that for every character in the game. And not only that, Pit's placing on Ankoku's list is 25th. Really, if he were 16th, this excuse might have been a little bit acceptable, but 12 spots lower than your actual tier list position? Yeah sure.

Not only that, but the word I have read the most is 'potential'. As many have said already, this isnt a tier list of the future, its a tier list of the current metagame. His potential is heavily overrated. Every character has potential anyway.

And his match-ups versus high tiers are more often disadvantaged than actually even, and not only that, it also seems that MK is his worst match-up! This makes his tier placing even more ridiculous.

Really, people say that Pit should now drop around 4 spots, but even that I find generous. IMO he should be where Fox is now, because he isnt doing any better, he just isn't convincing enough and I found the characters above him simply better.

I would disagree when you say his high-tier matchups are more disadvantaged than even. Pit goes at least even with Diddy, IC's, Dedede and Pikachu. He also has close matchups with Snake, Lucario and Falco. That is 7/11 that are close matchups or in Pit's favour. The others (Wario, Marth, G&W, Oli) are debatable.


I believe Pit should drop, but nowhere near what you say. Yes alot of his placement is based on potential, but some Pit's such as Koolaid and KiraFlax have been producing results as of lately.

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

Oh please, this 'Pit has so much potential, he's just underrepresented, thats why his results are so bad!' sickens me. Its barely an excuse. We might as well say that for every character in the game. And not only that, Pit's placing on Ankoku's list is 25th. Really, if he were 16th, this excuse might have been a little bit acceptable, but 12 spots lower than your actual tier list position? Yeah sure.

Not only that, but the word I have read the most is 'potential'. As many have said already, this isnt a tier list of the future, its a tier list of the current metagame. His potential is heavily overrated. Every character has potential anyway.

And his match-ups versus high tiers are more often disadvantaged than actually even, and not only that, it also seems that MK is his worst match-up! This makes his tier placing even more ridiculous.

Really, people say that Pit should now drop around 4 spots, but even that I find generous. IMO he should be where Fox is now, because he isnt doing any better, he just isn't convincing enough and I found the characters above him simply better.

His placement on Ankoku's list is very skewed. More than half of his top 8 results have not even been submited, and this can be said for the entirety of his results from the beginning of Brawl. Check his tournament results thread if you want more. & I still have a few things I need to update.

 

[Ayoub]

I would disagree when you say his high-tier matchups are more disadvantaged than even. Pit goes at least even with Diddy, IC's, Dedede and Pikachu. He also has close matchups with Snake, Lucario and Falco. That is 7/11 that are close matchups or in Pit's favour. The others (Wario, Marth, G&W, Oli) are debatable.


I believe Pit should drop, but nowhere near what you say. Yes alot of his placement is based on potential, but some Pit's such as Koolaid and KiraFlax have been producing results as of lately.

You didn't mention one matchup that's in Pits advantage, and in the end you say 7/11 are in Pit's favour or close MU's. And how are the others debatable.

Other problem is that Pit's doesnt **** anyone really badly, wich means that lots of mid-tiers have a even MU or advantage over him aswell.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Pit is your typical mid tier that doesn't stand, never does anything special and doesn't win. He's sort of like Donkey Kong, except not a cool ape with a tie.

That should cost Pit points imo.