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Banning Bayonetta in Tournaments
- Thread starter Funbot28
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I wish people were looking at it like this when I was literally typing and retyping it on repeat when I was last in this discussion.
Cause I have been saying for the longest that her extremely high damage + her extreme threat due to her unreasonably huge plethora of offensive options = you can't really go at her like anyone else in the game. It screws up your confidence and forces an insane amount of respect from you...more so than anyone else I could think of.
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I
I agree. Bayonetta just has really good options, and ways to deal with a possible punish (bat within)
SoccerStar9001
Smash Lord
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While this is more open minded than most complain post, I am still getting a little Little Mac vibe. (this is just bad game design)
Matio Utilt can't work on Bayonetta? Sure? Cool if true, but her air dodge sucks, try bait it out.
Come on now, "disrupt the meta"? I think at least 90% of the meta remains intact and it isn't like there is so much Bayonetta mains.
I don't get why people feel Batwithin needs to be reworked, everything else about her dodge are completely terrible and Batwithin doesn't protect Bayonetta with complete damage immunity.
Her dodge has the highest startup in the game, so it a normal character can dodge an attack on frame 3 of their dodge, Bayonetta would still take damage there.
Sounds like your problem TBH. Unless you were being incredibly predictable, there it is kinda hard to counter your jab. I know Shulk has bad framedata, but human reaction time + counter startup is around 17 frames. You have to make the first move, but do so with unpredictability.
Actually, I think that is an exaggeration. With Bayonetta having never won a tournament yet, her influence on the meta is currently limited. It may seen like a lot here, but I think it is currently limited else where.
All in all, she might have shifted your own personal meta, but we haven't fully grasp her potential strength and weaknesses.
PS: So is this a "Fire Emblem has too much characters" and "Might as well as name it Fire Emblem bros" prank? Not sure who I am at all.
I appreciate your feedback on my predictability. I should maybe mix-up with other MArts, but that isn't relevant. But my friend is really good at reading my approaches. (again, Shulk)
But even though her air-dodge is poor, the fact that bat within starts on frame 1 means she has safe escapes from combos, as long as she has ONE frame to act on. (of course, a true combo as no escapability, but that's neither here nor there)
And when I say she has shifted the meta, i mean that (to my knowledge) no other character has generated such.... discomfort(?) in the commmunity as a whole. Of course, this could be just because of how unique of a character she is.
I get the vibe that people just want non-Bayo's to stop complaining and pick up different characters, but no game should force people to play as someone that the player doesn't have a fun time playing as. Personally, I struggle with rush-down characters, but they seem to dominate all popular tier-lists. Go figure.
Oh, and i meant that she would bat within my jab with a dodge. Not truly Witch Time it.
Maybe I just don't understand Bayonetta as a whole, but my friend has successfully trumped all of my recovery options, (dair) countered my moves, (witch time) and escaped my strings (bat within), all the while 0-deathing me because of witch time and her weird side-b in the air combo. (the one that goes down.... sorry that isn't specific)
Oh well. Maybe Shulk is just terrible in this MU. Better pick up a top tier if i want to continue to have fun in this game.
SoccerStar9001
Smash Lord
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If that is true, than you are not unpredictable enough. Human reaction time is 12 frames, any move that is faster than 12 frames can't be dodged on reaction. In order to dodge a move with less than 12 frames of startup, you have to guess. If you force your opponent to guess, you are at an advantage.
All of Shulk's aerial has at least 12 frames of startup so it is more than possible to dodge it on reaction. So an aerial approach is not a good idea without mixing it up. Try a grounded one.
So you should go for an air dodge read, Bayonetta's air dodge has 10 frames of endlag (most characters has 5 or 6). It is surprisingly easy to punish the air dodge can setup a powerful move. I practically stopped using air dodge at all with her.
Actually, Little Mac did it too. Bayonetta is as extreme as Little Mac.
If you truly want to continue as Shulk, then you should at least try Bayonetta against a friend to see what she is like.
Rushdown dominates the tier list sadly, but unless you are going to a national tournament, tier list is quite unimportant.
If she batwithin your jab, you can continue the jab to hit her when she comes back. Shulk's jab is frame 5, if your friend is dodging it, she has to be guess for it. Try fake it (by being next to her) and go for a FSmash after the dodge expires.
Shulk does have a limited recovery option....
Witch Time is just a counter, and since it decays, you don't have to worry about it too much if she just used one.
Your strings are likely not to reliable in the first place, Shulk's moves are pretty laggy. Plus, it could have been a frame 2-4 Bat within which means you actually got a good deal since other characters would have taken no damage.
Is it rare for you to live past 100%? Curious.
You don't have to pick a top tier, but you should pick a secondary to back you up.
But nonetheless, have fun bro, it's why we started Smash.
hmmm. maybe I should pick up Link again? Maybe using his projectiles would be good? but then again his shield doesn't block her bullet arts.
Bayonetta's air dodge has nearly double the lag?! I should practice baiting out those more often! Thanks!
Little Mac is extreme, but he has glaring flaws that can't be corrected. Bayonetta has slightly sluggish moves, but she can extend it for bullet arts. And she has a long-distance recovery (with a double jump and side-b available)
I've tried Bayonetta. I can't figure it out.
I can actually reliably combo Buster dthrow into other moves, but she just bat warps away.
And yes, i usually live past 100%. Shield Art.
My roster is thus far: Mario, Shulk, Corrin, and Lucas. (except i suck as lucas)
But, in the interest of a Bayonetta thread, I will say that it is DEFINITELY too early to make a judgement on her. HOWEVER, I think that she does have a disproportionate risk:reward ratio. And that is just no fun to deal with.
Theosmeo
Smash Journeyman
Sothe, the best straight husbando in the Radient games
Yeah because the Brawl competitive scene is soooooo big
D
Deleted member 269706
Guest
A better argument would be that MK was pretty hard to play. Not like you could pick him up and be an expert after a month.
Funny how some people try to make her look like a complete pay2win character... As a Metwo and Rosalina player I think Falcon/Yoshi/Luigi are a pain in the az-z but that makes them toxic or good for me? no, MATCHUPS are the answer.. it is so easy for me at least to beat Bayonetta, even that I have a friend who main her and win almost every tournament.. really... this is getting ridiculous... every post about bayonetta now it has the toxic tag in it, why? because zero say it? aghhh before that video, I see how the people complain but only about witch time, not like this, now she's super good, you have frame data, the combos are broken, and she should be banned, really? you should know about how DI well... sorry but this make me guess that she's now "toxic" for you because Zero say it..
I really really don't like this community (not smashboards) such a crybabies
I really really don't like this community (not smashboards) such a crybabies
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I don't think she's toxic.
Perhaps she's healthy for the community; everyone seems to be trying frantically to adapt and it is making people play differently (and perhaps more wisely).
I just notice that she has potential to make certain characters play differently than they use to. Combos no longer work because of bat within, (i know you can bait out her poor air dodge, but that's a 50-50). I feel like Bayonetta has made a sudden "adjustment" to the meta of smash 4, and I'm not certain that it was a particularly good choice for the final batch of DLC to introduce such a radical character.
rules94, I don't mean to be a crybaby, but I just found myself having less fun playing when I play against Bayonetta.
Perhaps she's healthy for the community; everyone seems to be trying frantically to adapt and it is making people play differently (and perhaps more wisely).
I just notice that she has potential to make certain characters play differently than they use to. Combos no longer work because of bat within, (i know you can bait out her poor air dodge, but that's a 50-50). I feel like Bayonetta has made a sudden "adjustment" to the meta of smash 4, and I'm not certain that it was a particularly good choice for the final batch of DLC to introduce such a radical character.
rules94, I don't mean to be a crybaby, but I just found myself having less fun playing when I play against Bayonetta.
Looks like I might have to drop some FGC wisdom on you guys. This is gonna be a long one, but it's an interesting lesson on FGC history, mentality in regards to bans, and why Bayonetta is as good as she is and might become more manageable as the meta develops (though she'll likely stay very good)
First of all, I'd like to make a little comparison to Street Fighter II, particularly in regards to Akuma and Old Sagat, and bring up the difference between Hard Bans and Soft Bans.
A Hard Ban is an actual tournament rule saying that something is not allowed. You are not allowed to use this option in tournaments, lest you get disqualified or have to have your results invalidated.
A Soft Ban is an informal agreement among players not to use an option. Doing so is not in violation of any tournament rules, but it will get you shamed, booed, insulted, and/or beaten up in a parking lot after your set.
In Street Fighter II Turbo, Akuma was hard banned. As one OG player put it, "10-0 matchups across the board may be hyperbole, but 9-1 isn't." Short of a miracle, if you were playing against an Akuma player who knew what they were doing, and you weren't using Akuma, you were guaranteed to lose. He was the first and one of the only real community-wide character bans in the FGC, because he had such a strong matchup spread, even for a game where 6-4 is considered an even matchup, that the only thing that could beat an Akuma player was a better Akuma player.
Old Sagat (Each character in Super Turbo had an "old" variation that lacked the new mechanics introduced in Turbo, but was more powerful to compensate. In theory, at least. Some were more powerful than the "New" version, and others were worse), on the other hand, was a different story. He was widely considered the best in the game after Akuma and dominated competitive play, but his matchups weren't as one-sided, and they weren't as consistently good across the board. He had some very strong matchups, but they were all manageable; they were nothing that a skilled enough player couldn't overcome. He was soft-banned in Japan, but the rest of the world saw no issue with him.
I'm bringing this up because people talk about Bayonetta as if she's some insurmountably powerful monster with borderline auto-win matchups across the board like Akuma was, but honestly, Bayonetta is, at best, in the same place in the Smash 4 meta that Old Sagat was in Super Turbo. Definitely a powerful character who can be hard to deal with, but it's nothing insurmountable. I will say that unlike Akuma and Old Sagat, her dominance isn't just a matter of sheer power, but how different she is. Her playstyle is very reminiscent of MvC or anime fighters. And unlike Ryu, where you don't have to play the neutral like you're playing Street Fighter to beat him, with Bayonetta, an understanding of traditional fighting game fundamentals is a huge part of dealing with her. Ground control, anti-airs, counterhits, whiff punishes, proper application of shielding/perfect shielding (in place of blocking/just frame bocking), and out of shield options (in place of reversals) are the name of the game. And the number one thing to remember is that escaping her combos isn't just a matter of DI and airdodging out. In traditional fighters, if you want to get out of a combo, you have to interrupt it and turn the tides against her as soon as you get an opening/they drop the combo, which is exactly what you want to do against Bayonetta. Even if that means mashing A in hopes of throwing out a neutral-air. She also doesn't have much in the way of dealing with characters with good grab game, so use that to your advantage if you can.
I'm just hypothesizing here, but I feel like having a firm grip on traditional fighting game fundamentals might help you out. If you have a friend who plays traditional fighters, preferably Guilty Gear Xrd or Street Fighter V, ask them to teach you how to play, or maybe pick it up yourself if you can afford to. You're going to get the best experience on PS4, but the PC versions are excellent as well. Even though I'd recommend a fightstick or a fightpad, a regular PS/Xbox gamepad or even a Classic Controller Pro with a USB adapter (if playing on PC) is serviceable. Even if you don't have any FGC buddies and can't afford to buy a copy for yourself, you can always play older games through FightCade and/or check out some videos on traditional fighting game fundamentals (like this one for Guilty Gear Xrd) and apply the concepts to Smash. Again, take this advice with a grain of salt, because it's entirely possible that I'm just talking out my ass about this.
And, honestly, going back to Akuma, the reasons for his ban are a good litmus test for if a character is ban-worthy or not. If they have 9-1 or even 8-2 matchups or better across the board, then they need to be banned. If a character, while powerful and hard to deal with, has a relatively tame matchup spread and is still manageable with most of the cast, then they shouldn't be banned outright, though I would definitely put a heavy emphasis on learning all of their tools and how to deal with them.
tl;dr version: She doesn't have 8-2 matchups or better across the board, so, no, she's not ban-worthy. You gotta play the neutral more like you would in a traditional fighter against her, so learn ground control, anti airs, how to use counterhits and whiff punishes to your advantage, and how to get the most out of your grab game. Learning how to play Street Fighter or Guilty Gear might also be helpful, since it teaches all of that stuff except for grab game.
First of all, I'd like to make a little comparison to Street Fighter II, particularly in regards to Akuma and Old Sagat, and bring up the difference between Hard Bans and Soft Bans.
A Hard Ban is an actual tournament rule saying that something is not allowed. You are not allowed to use this option in tournaments, lest you get disqualified or have to have your results invalidated.
A Soft Ban is an informal agreement among players not to use an option. Doing so is not in violation of any tournament rules, but it will get you shamed, booed, insulted, and/or beaten up in a parking lot after your set.
In Street Fighter II Turbo, Akuma was hard banned. As one OG player put it, "10-0 matchups across the board may be hyperbole, but 9-1 isn't." Short of a miracle, if you were playing against an Akuma player who knew what they were doing, and you weren't using Akuma, you were guaranteed to lose. He was the first and one of the only real community-wide character bans in the FGC, because he had such a strong matchup spread, even for a game where 6-4 is considered an even matchup, that the only thing that could beat an Akuma player was a better Akuma player.
Old Sagat (Each character in Super Turbo had an "old" variation that lacked the new mechanics introduced in Turbo, but was more powerful to compensate. In theory, at least. Some were more powerful than the "New" version, and others were worse), on the other hand, was a different story. He was widely considered the best in the game after Akuma and dominated competitive play, but his matchups weren't as one-sided, and they weren't as consistently good across the board. He had some very strong matchups, but they were all manageable; they were nothing that a skilled enough player couldn't overcome. He was soft-banned in Japan, but the rest of the world saw no issue with him.
I'm bringing this up because people talk about Bayonetta as if she's some insurmountably powerful monster with borderline auto-win matchups across the board like Akuma was, but honestly, Bayonetta is, at best, in the same place in the Smash 4 meta that Old Sagat was in Super Turbo. Definitely a powerful character who can be hard to deal with, but it's nothing insurmountable. I will say that unlike Akuma and Old Sagat, her dominance isn't just a matter of sheer power, but how different she is. Her playstyle is very reminiscent of MvC or anime fighters. And unlike Ryu, where you don't have to play the neutral like you're playing Street Fighter to beat him, with Bayonetta, an understanding of traditional fighting game fundamentals is a huge part of dealing with her. Ground control, anti-airs, counterhits, whiff punishes, proper application of shielding/perfect shielding (in place of blocking/just frame bocking), and out of shield options (in place of reversals) are the name of the game. And the number one thing to remember is that escaping her combos isn't just a matter of DI and airdodging out. In traditional fighters, if you want to get out of a combo, you have to interrupt it and turn the tides against her as soon as you get an opening/they drop the combo, which is exactly what you want to do against Bayonetta. Even if that means mashing A in hopes of throwing out a neutral-air. She also doesn't have much in the way of dealing with characters with good grab game, so use that to your advantage if you can.
I'm just hypothesizing here, but I feel like having a firm grip on traditional fighting game fundamentals might help you out. If you have a friend who plays traditional fighters, preferably Guilty Gear Xrd or Street Fighter V, ask them to teach you how to play, or maybe pick it up yourself if you can afford to. You're going to get the best experience on PS4, but the PC versions are excellent as well. Even though I'd recommend a fightstick or a fightpad, a regular PS/Xbox gamepad or even a Classic Controller Pro with a USB adapter (if playing on PC) is serviceable. Even if you don't have any FGC buddies and can't afford to buy a copy for yourself, you can always play older games through FightCade and/or check out some videos on traditional fighting game fundamentals (like this one for Guilty Gear Xrd) and apply the concepts to Smash. Again, take this advice with a grain of salt, because it's entirely possible that I'm just talking out my ass about this.
And, honestly, going back to Akuma, the reasons for his ban are a good litmus test for if a character is ban-worthy or not. If they have 9-1 or even 8-2 matchups or better across the board, then they need to be banned. If a character, while powerful and hard to deal with, has a relatively tame matchup spread and is still manageable with most of the cast, then they shouldn't be banned outright, though I would definitely put a heavy emphasis on learning all of their tools and how to deal with them.
tl;dr version: She doesn't have 8-2 matchups or better across the board, so, no, she's not ban-worthy. You gotta play the neutral more like you would in a traditional fighter against her, so learn ground control, anti airs, how to use counterhits and whiff punishes to your advantage, and how to get the most out of your grab game. Learning how to play Street Fighter or Guilty Gear might also be helpful, since it teaches all of that stuff except for grab game.
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Ghidorah14
Smash Ace
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Kip Shades, you hit the nail on the head. This is exactly the kind of thing I and a few others have been trying to tell people.
I played SF4 for about 2 years, and picked up a handful of others along the way. Even if I didnt turn out that good at SF, what I learned carried over to smash and made me a better player than I would have been otherwise.
I played SF4 for about 2 years, and picked up a handful of others along the way. Even if I didnt turn out that good at SF, what I learned carried over to smash and made me a better player than I would have been otherwise.
éLógico
Smash Cadet
I feel like I don't know enough to add to the discusison.
Could someone please tell me the regional and national tournaments the character has won, or, at least, link me to a post or a comment that already has the information?
Could someone please tell me the regional and national tournaments the character has won, or, at least, link me to a post or a comment that already has the information?
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I should also note that if you're into traditional fighting games or want to get into them, should pick up Guilty Gear Xrd anyways because it's a really good example of giving a game a high skill ceiling and a relatively low skill floor by balancing technical gameplay with lenient execution and an incredibly extensive tutorial that not only covers gameplay mechanics and sample combos but also covers basic concepts like zoning, zone breaking, ground control, anti air, air to air, and such, the soundtrack has some absolutely amazing 80s throwback metal, and it's just so much fun. Though if you're looking for something more traditional, SFV is also really good, and I've heard pretty good things about Mortal Kombat X.
But yeah, as I was saying. When it comes to fighting game characters that people have discussed banning, Bayo ain't ****. Yeah, you have to adjust to a very different sort of neutral game when playing against her, but she isn't nearly as degenerate as people say she is. We just have a lot of figureheads who happen to be scrubs.
But yeah, as I was saying. When it comes to fighting game characters that people have discussed banning, Bayo ain't ****. Yeah, you have to adjust to a very different sort of neutral game when playing against her, but she isn't nearly as degenerate as people say she is. We just have a lot of figureheads who happen to be scrubs.
It's not right that you say she's as extreme and overtly relying on the game-release instance as a logical crutch continually.
Little Mac never had an impact on the tournament scene meta like Bayonetta has (and bayonetta hasn't done much at all yet, that should say enough)
Little Mac was strictly a low to mid level demon (for glory frustration inducer) who still couldn't pull that much relevant wins at regional level nearly anywhere. Pocket Macs that won things never pulled it off twice (IIRC Nairo got through winner's finals at a NY/NJ tournament destroying people but ended up being forced off by NAKAT; who he had already beaten, first set of GF).
Wise words in general and a good tone
Smash community will always be really different about match ups compared to traditional fighters/FGC. Top level players and general consensus will put match ups at 60:40 that are never won by the disadvantaged player at top level (e.g. in Brawl ESAM spread that Pika/MK was even, yet against many similar leveled players he had completely one-sided negative records against).
Bayonetta may or may not end up having very dominant tournament records in most match ups by their mains, but the likelihood of people agreeing that they're 80-20s is a lot less likely than people feeling she should be banned.
If MK in Brawl was any indication.
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Theosmeo
Smash Journeyman
Steam
Smash Hero
it feels so weird to compare bayonetta to brawl metaknight because they're complete opposite characters in how they operate. MK was basically the god of neutral (like sma4sh sheik) and was just straight better than you. bayonetta's more of a cheese character like brawl ICs whose strength feels way more overbearing and cancerous when it rears its ugly head. There's no results to justify banning bayonetta, but I can say for certain her state as a character is a factor that keeps me from returning to the competitive scene.
CreamyFatone
Smash Cadet
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I'll just be a little nitpicky and say that you can't really trade with her to end her combos, you have to DI and then airdodge, and it might be better if she was adjusted so that you could nair out with some characters.
But other than that, this is like the MVP of the whole thread. This is the post I'll redirect other people to in Bayonetta discussions.
CanadianMegaMan
Smash Apprentice
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I find that bayonetta seems to fight a lot like kat from play station all stars, lots of fluid movement, especially in the air, and a very combo heavy play style. Keeping that in mind, the way to fight against kat was to block until the right moment in her combo, and then hit her out of it and capitalize as much damage as you can, or land a kill shot. Fighting bayonetta seems to be relatively the same. Block until around the third hit of most of her combos, then punish.
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Emblem Lord
The Legendary Lord
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Give it at least 6 months guys.
I've heard that the Mario Bros. (including Doc) and Ness can do nair trades and that Ryu can nair or true Shoryuken out. I'd have to assume that you have to (S)DI out then nair (or true Shoryuken) to do so.
She actually shares a ton of animations with Kat, so you're right in more ways than one.
I doubt another 6 months will stop players like Ally from being scrubs about it, but yeah. It's way too soon to say that we need to ban the character. Jumping the gun on a ban so early is part of what led to the downfall of SoulCalibur 4
Personally, I think that we should've had a 3-week restriction or even ban on Bayo (and all of the DLC character) on release, at least from majors and regionals, like the FGC does with all new DLC characters (With the exception of NCR, which instead only has a 2-week window. And I think EVO has a 5-week window), with anything-goes side events for people to try to figure the character out, but it's far too late for that now. I definitely think we should do it with future Smash games or with Rivals of Aether or Wavedash Games' project, though.
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Kip took the words right out of my mouth, only the comparison I've been using for Bayo was Third Strike Chun. Now I have a better example to use lol.
Coming from someone who also plays Street Fighter and KI competitively, a lot of people in the community can learn so much by just thinking about things in the traditional FGC style. So good stuff bringing that to the table. *cue golf claps*
Coming from someone who also plays Street Fighter and KI competitively, a lot of people in the community can learn so much by just thinking about things in the traditional FGC style. So good stuff bringing that to the table. *cue golf claps*
3S Chun is another good comparison. I mainly brought up Old Sagat because he's another example within Super Turbo that I can contrast against Akuma to show the difference between a character who's dominant but manageable like Bayo is vs. one who's flat-out God Tier (going by David Sirlin's definition of God Tier: so flat-out overpowered that it makes everything else completely non-viable by comparison)
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Treveen
Smash Cadet
She is awful to watch. I give up on watching tournament streams when there are bayo players and i am not the only one. We need to take veiwership into account, that is mainly what keeps a game alive.
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Emblem Lord
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How is she awful to watch?
Good bayos are a joy to watch imo.
Sonic is ****ing painful to watch ok?
Characters that ignore neutral and just do stuff. Thats not Bayo. She takes the neutral game to the next level. A level that unfortunately many chars are simply too damn weak to compete in. oh well.
Even then, a character being awful to watch is a terrible reason to ban them. By that logic, Necalli or Karin should be banned in SFV, or Sheik and Puff in Melee, or Millia in Xrd.
Again, I don't even think it's that her neutral is on a completely different level, just that it's fundamentally different in a way that many players aren't used to. Against Bayo, you're playing Smash neutral and SF or Guilty Gear neutral at the same time, and that's something that overwhelms people. It's, effectively, the same reason why you see so few Ryu mains - his neutral is a combination of Smash neutral and Street Fighter footsies.
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Treveen
Smash Cadet
the difference between bayo and these other characters is that bayo only needs to put her hands on the opponent once to get a kill. The audience will feel cheated. The only comparable character to bayo in a game that is still alive is melee Ice Climbers. except Ice climbers are far from dominant and grabs are hard to get. maybe it does take skill to get an opponent into a kill combo but there is little risk in going for it. The audience feels just as cheated as the player and that is not healthy for the longevity of the game.
Marcbri
Smash Lord
Results for Tech Republic (128 entrants):
1- Rydle
2- Greward
3- Marcbri
4- Robo~Luigi
5- Sefi
5- El_Pitikla
7- Hikotsu
7- Nau
Soo, Bayo wins again with ease in Spain, this time in a national tournament and the community is NOT happy. While other Bayos got to top 16, Rydle just demolished everyone, even ending the first grand final game in 22 seconds. People hate watching and playing her to the point where more people are pushing for a ban and wishing for nerfs after every tournament. A recent poll that just started today has already 75% of votes for the ban.
For context, Rydle was ranked 6th at the end of 2015 and played Sheik, but he was clearly below the top 5, usually getting 3-0ed by them. Now that things are the other way around and more and more people are picking up Bayo the community is getting mad. The community has grown a lot since Brawl days and a lot of the old school players don't want to see it fall again so they want to ban her before half the entrants of a tournament play her.
You can watch the matches on the past broadcasts from twitch.tv/smashbrosspain or wait until they are uploaded to Youtube in our Youtube acc by the same name.
Just wondering about your opinions about this.
I'm leaving here my personal opinion as well:
Bayo is not unbeatable but she's clearly one tier above the rest of the characters. She destroys most, if not all of the cast and is just unenjoyable to play against her and to watch the matches where there's one. Oh, but "adapt/get gud", you'll say. yeah, didn't we say that about customs as well and we ended up banning them because we enjoyed customs off meta more? I just happen to enjoy the game without Bayo more, might as well just quit if I have to play a match-up where I can't make more than 2 mistakes. It just stops being fun there and if the players don't enjoy the game then they have no reason to get good/adapt or to even play anymore. Bayonetta, while not unbeatable, will kill the game.
1- Rydle
2- Greward
3- Marcbri
4- Robo~Luigi
5- Sefi
5- El_Pitikla
7- Hikotsu
7- Nau
Soo, Bayo wins again with ease in Spain, this time in a national tournament and the community is NOT happy. While other Bayos got to top 16, Rydle just demolished everyone, even ending the first grand final game in 22 seconds. People hate watching and playing her to the point where more people are pushing for a ban and wishing for nerfs after every tournament. A recent poll that just started today has already 75% of votes for the ban.
For context, Rydle was ranked 6th at the end of 2015 and played Sheik, but he was clearly below the top 5, usually getting 3-0ed by them. Now that things are the other way around and more and more people are picking up Bayo the community is getting mad. The community has grown a lot since Brawl days and a lot of the old school players don't want to see it fall again so they want to ban her before half the entrants of a tournament play her.
You can watch the matches on the past broadcasts from twitch.tv/smashbrosspain or wait until they are uploaded to Youtube in our Youtube acc by the same name.
Just wondering about your opinions about this.
I'm leaving here my personal opinion as well:
Bayo is not unbeatable but she's clearly one tier above the rest of the characters. She destroys most, if not all of the cast and is just unenjoyable to play against her and to watch the matches where there's one. Oh, but "adapt/get gud", you'll say. yeah, didn't we say that about customs as well and we ended up banning them because we enjoyed customs off meta more? I just happen to enjoy the game without Bayo more, might as well just quit if I have to play a match-up where I can't make more than 2 mistakes. It just stops being fun there and if the players don't enjoy the game then they have no reason to get good/adapt or to even play anymore. Bayonetta, while not unbeatable, will kill the game.
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pikazz
Smash Lord
Bayonetta at least get her work done instead for some character *coughsoniccough* running around and stalling out time and make the match thrice as long as it should be
SoccerStar9001
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Mar 29, 2016
- Messages
- 1,246
Cuz it is so rare for Bayonetta's opponent to live past 100% right?
ARISTOS
Smash Ace
Banning ish for the sake of "fun" is super silly. What is fun for one person/group of people may not be the same way others feel; whose opinion matters more?Results for Tech Republic (128 entrants):
1- Rydle
2- Greward
3- Marcbri
4- Robo~Luigi
5- Sefi
5- El_Pitikla
7- Hikotsu
7- Nau
Soo, Bayo wins again with ease in Spain, this time in a national tournament and the community is NOT happy. While other Bayos got to top 16, Rydle just demolished everyone, even ending the first grand final game in 22 seconds. People hate watching and playing her to the point where more people are pushing for a ban and wishing for nerfs after every tournament. A recent poll that just started today has already 75% of votes for the ban.
For context, Rydle was ranked 6th at the end of 2015 and played Sheik, but he was clearly below the top 5, usually getting 3-0ed by them. Now that things are the other way around and more and more people are picking up Bayo the community is getting mad. The community has grown a lot since Brawl days and a lot of the old school players don't want to see it fall again so they want to ban it before half the entrants of a tournament play her.
You can watch the matches on the past broadcasts from twitch.tv/smashbrosspain or wait until they are uploaded to Youtube in our Youtube acc by the same name.
Just wondering about your opinions about this.
I'm leaving here my personal opinion as well:
Bayo is not unbeatable but she's clearly one tier above the rest of the characters. She destroys most, if not all of the cast and is just unenjoyable to play against her and to watch the matches where there's one. Oh, but "adapt/get gud", you'll say. yeah, didn't we say that about customs as well and we ended up banning them because we enjoyed customs off meta more? I just happen to enjoy the game without Bayo more, might as well just quit if I have to play a match-up where I can't make more than 2 mistakes. It just stops being fun there and if the players don't enjoy the game then they have no reason to get good/adapt or to even play anymore. Bayonetta, while not unbeatable, will kill the game.
The game doesn't owe you anything, and players who used to win before are not guaranteed anything. What's stopping Rydle from also just having improved?
I really do not like this argument at all, it's based off of an emotional appeal that I can't support.
Spain is it's own region though so y'all should do what's best for your scene
Lhivorde
Smash Rookie
Do you think your region will end up banning her? In the strictest sense of competition, that is finding out who is the best player, it doesn't make sense to ban any character, because if a player wants to be the best, they must play the best character. Obviously, though, that's not exactly why some of us play, and seems to me to be an incomplete outlook on competition. Do you think that Spain will end up balancing its ruleset around players being able to have more fun?
Not trying to be a loaded question, having trouble phrasing the question in any other way though.
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Zannabluke
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Jan 20, 2015
- Messages
- 114
until bayo is as poisonous as 2011 mk, talking about a ban will only make you look as a fool
the character is TWO MONTHS OLD
the character is TWO MONTHS OLD
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Locke 06
Sayonara, bye bye~
So, you don't understand Bayonetta at all.
Dtilt, up tilt, FAir1, up air, and NAir all setup things for her. Low % uthrow>wt1, BAir. High %, ftilt1 kind of? And then of course her specials.
Marcbri
- Only watched GF's, but the megaman game that was semi-close is what I expected more of. Looking at that game, she feels fair. The Ike game, I felt was "good character" fine.I get where you're coming from, but until both sides understand her combo tree as well as the one performing it, I think it's too early to even consider a ban.
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NotLiquid
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jul 14, 2014
- Messages
- 1,347
I feel that Bayonetta is still this game's version of Melee Jigglypuff where she gets a stupidly easy stock kill off of a read and has high survivability in the air. And like Melee Jigglypuff I don't think that alone makes her a character of a separate tier; even if I do think elements of her deserve nerfs (although I couldn't tell you what would be the best way to nerf her in order to keep her design mentality intact, other than elements of the Witch Twist and Divekick).Results for Tech Republic (128 entrants):
1- Rydle
2- Greward
3- Marcbri
4- Robo~Luigi
5- Sefi
5- El_Pitikla
7- Hikotsu
7- Nau
Soo, Bayo wins again with ease in Spain, this time in a national tournament and the community is NOT happy. While other Bayos got to top 16, Rydle just demolished everyone, even ending the first grand final game in 22 seconds. People hate watching and playing her to the point where more people are pushing for a ban and wishing for nerfs after every tournament. A recent poll that just started today has already 75% of votes for the ban.
For context, Rydle was ranked 6th at the end of 2015 and played Sheik, but he was clearly below the top 5, usually getting 3-0ed by them. Now that things are the other way around and more and more people are picking up Bayo the community is getting mad. The community has grown a lot since Brawl days and a lot of the old school players don't want to see it fall again so they want to ban it before half the entrants of a tournament play her.
You can watch the matches on the past broadcasts from twitch.tv/smashbrosspain or wait until they are uploaded to Youtube in our Youtube acc by the same name.
Just wondering about your opinions about this.
I'm leaving here my personal opinion as well:
Bayo is not unbeatable but she's clearly one tier above the rest of the characters. She destroys most, if not all of the cast and is just unenjoyable to play against her and to watch the matches where there's one. Oh, but "adapt/get gud", you'll say. yeah, didn't we say that about customs as well and we ended up banning them because we enjoyed customs off meta more? I just happen to enjoy the game without Bayo more, might as well just quit if I have to play a match-up where I can't make more than 2 mistakes. It's just stops being fun there and if the players don't enjoy the game then they have no reason to get good/adapt or to even play anymore. Bayonetta, while not unbeatable, will kill the game.
Until that time happens, we recently came off of a stacked major with some of the world's greatest attending; where one of the currently best Bayonetta players didn't get passed the Top 8 opening gate while everyone else got weeded out quickly before. Pink Fresh, Saj and 9B are currently the ones that stick to mind as Bayo's best players, and while they are partially carried they also used to have some complicated-to-mediocre character choices they had good performances with, which makes the sentiment disputable.
Plenty of players can get carried by a character but the biggest crime Bayonetta committed in comparison to characters with ridiculous neutrals/advantages is having an incredibly dumb way of bypassing mistakes, and banning a character for not being fun to play against is a silly sentiment. I imagine we'd have pre-patch Diddy, pre-patch Luigi and maybe even Rosalina and pre-patch Sheik on the chopping block if that were the case.
What currently sets apart the amateurs from the pros on Bayonetta are those who recognize her for being a gimmick and those who recognize her for being a character. Right now we're seeing a lot of the former, and not enough people having the guts in the face of adversity to explore what it means to be the latter.
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Zannabluke
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Jan 20, 2015
- Messages
- 114
just to clarify, before i'm stoned to death by some of you
i'm not a bayo apologist, she's really dumb and obviously deserves to be nerfed but even thinking about a possible ban is pathetic
- Status