Banning Bayonetta in Tournaments

[Respect38]

And why doesn't Zero main her?

As he said in his Bayonetta opinion piece video, he's not doing so because she's bad for the game. Also, that he doesn't like to play as her, which I'm sure made the decision easier for him.

 

[Ghidorah14]

As he said in his Bayonetta opinion piece video, he's not doing so because she's bad for the game. Also, that he doesn't like to play as her, which I'm sure made the decision easier for him.

And yet he mained pre-patch diddy and sheik...

 

[ZaneHitsurugi]

As he said in his Bayonetta opinion piece video, he's not doing so because she's bad for the game. Also, that he doesn't like to play as her, which I'm sure made the decision easier for him.

Can't say I buy that. After all, he's been playing Shiek for how long?

 

[David Viran]

And yet he mained pre-patch diddy and sheik...

He still mains diddy post patch and he played sheik before diddy was nerfed he just didn't pull her out in tournament because diddy was op.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

He still mains diddy post patch and he played sheik before diddy was nerfed he just didn't pull her out in tournament because diddy was op.

He played quite a lot of characters to be honest.

 

[teluoborg]

Let's change the subject a bit. To all the people that keep saying Bayo has a bad neutral : what do you have to say about dive kick ?
Here's what I gathered :
-hits on frame 8-24
-can be done at various heights, which gives it a lot of mixup potential on the timing
-if she hits a shield she jumps very high and suffers 22 frames of lag (thanks KH)
-if she whiffs and lands she suffers 20 frames of lag with a hitbox on frame 1 (for comparison Jr's Dair has 24 frames of lag and other dive kick moves suffer from 30 to 48 frames, Roy's neutral B has 18 frames of lag and MK's Fsmash has 17)
-if she connects she gets rewarded from a simple Uair to a 0-death combo

Witch Twist is more or like the same kind of stuff (frame 4 move with an IASA 29, can be done OOS and lead to various combos).

So yeah, imo Bayo doesn't have a bad neutral, especially with the dive kick which can only really be countered by outspacing it and the Witch Twist whose only counterplay is to not get hit by it and respect Bayo's next move (unless you shielded right next to it and Uair/up B OOS immediatly after the move is unpunishable). She can Dive Kick shields all day until it shield stabs or the opponent makes a mistake, if she uses variance in her timing and DI there's little the opponent can do about it.

Should she be banned ? No, give it a few months and she'll get Sheik'd, no doubt about that.
But right now she has way too much reward for how much risks she has to take, and she'll force a meta shift where more characters will be played just because they can deal with her (sup Greninja).

 

[PsychoPuff23]

Bayonetta's been out for what? 2 month's? Give it till the end of the year and we will know all that she can do.

I think like this too

 

[Ax^2]

Speaking of witch (heh.. get it? I'll stop now), whats the greninja vs bayo mu like?

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Telouborg, just spot dodge the dive kick and she will land with lag, the more move she used in the air, the more landing lag the dive kick will have.

Witch Twist is pretty hard to connect without a set and all her other moves has at least 7 frames of startup (even grab).

How good a character's neutral game is comes down to three factors: mobility, attack speed, and range.
Straight from ssbwiki.com:

Good mobility grants easier movement and repositioning, and can allow a character to respond quickly when they find an opening, or retreat to escape pressure. Fast attack speed makes a character unpredictable, and can be used to force reactions and create openings. Characters with long reach in their attacks can fight at a safe distance, and range also encompasses projectiles, which are essential for applying pressure and limiting the opponent's options

Bayonetta has an overall poor mobility.
Bayonetta has an overall poor framedata.
Bayonetta's specials has nice reach, but her normal moves (without BA) doesn't and her special involves the risk of landing with a lot of lag.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

Let's change the subject a bit. To all the people that keep saying Bayo has a bad neutral : what do you have to say about dive kick ?
Here's what I gathered :
-hits on frame 8-24
-can be done at various heights, which gives it a lot of mixup potential on the timing
-if she hits a shield she jumps very high and suffers ??? frames of lag (idk how much and it's not on KH, anyone has frame data ?)
-if she whiffs and lands she suffers 20 frames of lag with a hitbox on frame 1 (for comparison Jr's Dair has 24 frames of lag and other dive kick moves suffer from 30 to 48 frames, Roy's neutral B has 18 frames of lag and MK's Fsmash has 17)
-if she connects she gets rewarded from a simple Uair to a 0-death combo

Witch Twist is more or like the same kind of stuff (frame 4 move with an IASA 29, can be done OOS and lead to various combos).

So yeah, imo Bayo doesn't have a bad neutral, especially with the dive kick which can only really be countered by outspacing it and the Witch Twist whose only counterplay is to not get hit by it and respect Bayo's next move (unless you shielded right next to it and Uair/up B OOS immediatly after the move is unpunishable). She can Dive Kick shields all day until it shield stabs or the opponent makes a mistake, if she uses variance in her timing and DI there's little the opponent can do about it.

Should she be banned ? No, give it a few months and she'll get Sheik'd, no doubt about that.
But right now she has way too much reward for how much risks she has to take, and she'll force a meta shift where more characters will be played just because they can deal with her (sup Greninja).

I'd like to add onto this post just a little bit, because I agree, Bayo does NOT have a bad neutral.

• Frame 1 - spotdodge/airdodge.
• Frame 4 - Witch Twist (ends frame 28 (FAF is frame 29), hitboxes end frame 25)
• Frame 5 - Witch Time.
• Frame 7 - Grab, dtilt, utilt (all lead into other things), fair, and afterburner kick.
• Frame 8 - Down angled afterburner kick.
• Frame 9 - Nair, Uair, and jab.

First thing I want to point out is how fast a lot of her moves are. Let's be honest, the argument that she has bad frame data is bull****. Clearly anyone who thinks that she has bad frame data has never played the lesser half of the cast. Not saying she has good frame data, but she definitely doesn't have bad frame data. More importantly, a lot of these moves are really safe. Witch Twist has a total cooldown of 3 frames. DABK is completely safe on shield. Spaced bair is safe. Nair, bair, and uair only have 12 frames of landing lag (which aren't too hard to auto-cancel, and even if the autocancel is missed, bullets can keep opponents from getting good punishes). More over, she can pressure opponents to approach her with the bullet arts. No, the projectiles may not do a lot of damage, but it's still damage and it will force the opponent to commit. The bullet arts alone give her a solid advantage in neutral, but with everything else you can't really argue that she has a bad neutral. And the fact that she has frame 1 dodges helps her out all the more when it comes to evading attacks/set-ups/strings/etc. She is arguably one of the best characters at resetting to neutral and escaping the disadvantage state.

 

[CreamyFatone]

This may be just a thought, but I think people sometimes confuse the intended design of the character with how the character actually is right now.

As a concept character, she has extremely powerful options, but they are highly punishable when baited or missed. This is shown in the lag for witch time, bat within, her rolls, her frame data on the ground, and her accumulated landing lag from using her specials. She is supposed to be highly punishable in her lag.

However, in this current iteration of Bayonetta you can't really punish her for anything and players can compensate for her ok-ish frame data with spacing. She really isn't punishable, which is just a mistake by designers. And because of Witch Time, this error is magnified because some poor soul thinking they have enough time to punish (because she's supposed to be laggy right?) gets Witch Time'd and loses their stock at 15%.

 

[teluoborg]

Telouborg, just spot dodge the dive kick and she will land with lag, the more move she used in the air, the more landing lag the dive kick will have.

Let's do some maths :
spotdodges have 9 or more frames of lag after invincibility
+
Dive Kick has 20 frames of lag when it touches the ground
=
If you spotdodge perfectly the dive kick in order for its landing hitbox to come out on the last invincible frame of your spotdodge you have 11 (eleven) frames to punish it. If you are not frame perfect though, you have less. Let's say with practice you get the timing with a 3-4 frames window, that means you have 7-8 frames to punish Bayo's dive kick.

8 frames to punish something that has a zero to death potential or at least will inflict 40%. Imagine MK's Fsmash dealing 40% or killing at 15 if you will.

Witch Twist is pretty hard to connect without a set and all her other moves has at least 7 frames of startup (even grab).

As Rawkstar said this is untrue. Bayo is the only character to have frame 1 dodges and on top of that she has her frame 4 up B and frame 5 counter. Let's also remember that startup only matters when it comes to trading or combo breaking. Bayonetta has a frame 1 combo breaker, that's a feat only a handful of characters have (Jiggs, Ryu or Marth for example).

Bayonetta has an overall poor mobility.
Bayonetta has an overall poor framedata.
Bayonetta's specials has nice reach, but her normal moves (without BA) doesn't and her special involves the risk of landing with a lot of lag.

Ok this is where I draw the line.
The blatant misinformation stops right here.
You do not say about a character that has up to 4 air dashes in 5 different directions, a side B that low profiles most high attacks and a stall-then-fall Dair that it "has an overall poor mobility".
Neither do you say about a character that has more or less 20 frames of lag on all her combo starters that it has "overall poor framedata".
"Her specials involves the risk of landing with a lot of lag" is true only if you use multiple specials while in the air, and if you do it is because you combo'd someone with said specials, in which case they'll either be too high near the blastzone to punish your landing, or simply dead.
If you use multiple specials consecutively in the air while in the neutral I'm sorry but it's not the character that's flawed.

You want a character with poor mobility ? Try playing DDD, Dr Mario or Duck Hunt.
You want a character with poor frame data ? Try Ganon, Palutena or WFT.


Try harder.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Let's do some maths :
spotdodges have 9 or more frames of lag after invincibility
+
Dive Kick has 20 frames of lag when it touches the ground
=
If you spotdodge perfectly the dive kick in order for its landing hitbox to come out on the last invincible frame of your spotdodge you have 11 (eleven) frames to punish it. If you are not frame perfect though, you have less. Let's say with practice you get the timing with a 3-4 frames window, that means you have 7-8 frames to punish Bayo's dive kick.

And more of she has used other specials. 7-8 frames more than enough to capitalize on.

8 frames to punish something that has a zero to death potential or at least will inflict 40%. Imagine MK's Fsmash dealing 40% or killing at 15 if you will.

Here we go again, it must be so rare for Bayonetta's opponent to love past 100%.

As Rawkstar said this is untrue. Bayo is the only character to have frame 1 dodges and on top of that she has her frame 4 up B and frame 5 counter. Let's also remember that startup only matters when it comes to trading or combo breaking. Bayonetta has a frame 1 combo breaker, that's a feat only a handful of characters have (Jiggs, Ryu or Marth for example).

Why do People keep feeling Bayonetta has a frame 1 dodge? It is frame 5. Grab goes through Bat within and Bat within is only frame 1 if you spot dodge or air dodge which means the will appear in the same place or below with half of the damage.
Also, claiming I spread misinformation when spreading it yourself is very laughable. Neither Marth nor Ryu has a frame 1 combo breaker, lol. Jiggs' rest comes out on frame 2, but she is invincible on frame 1, so I guess it count as frame 1 combo breaker.

Ok this is where I draw the line.
The blatant misinformation stops right here.
You do not say about a character that has up to 4 air dashes in 5 different directions, a side B that low profiles most high attacks and a stall-then-fall Dair that it "has an overall poor mobility".
Neither do you say about a character that has more or less 20 frames of lag on all her combo starters that it has "overall poor framedata".
"Her specials involves the risk of landing with a lot of lag" is true only if you use multiple specials while in the air, and if you do it is because you combo'd someone with said specials, in which case they'll either be too high near the blastzone to punish your landing, or simply dead.
If you use multiple specials consecutively in the air while in the neutral I'm sorry but it's not the character that's flawed.

You want a character with poor mobility ? Try playing DDD, Dr Mario or Duck Hunt.
You want a character with poor frame data ? Try Ganon, Palutena or WFT.


Try harder.

Oh man....
This will take a while.
Those "air dashes" can only be used once in the air if no one gets hit. Witch Twist is slower than her own jump. A character with good mobility can go in more than 5 different directions instead of 5 predictable ones. And all these air dashes adds to her landing lag.
Her normal mobility is below average.
Walking is slower than Dedede's walk speed.
Air speed is lower than Little Mac's air speed.
Run speed is the same as Mario's run speed which is average at best.
DDD, Dr Mario, DH all has very poor mobility, not sure why it is important to mention.

So I guess this is "It doesn't matter if xxx" in different wordings. If you can't punish the landing lag, learn how to instead of making excuses on why you can't.

WFT got a better framedata than a number of cast including Bayonetta.
Palutena sucks in terms of framedata, that doesn't mean anyone better doesn't have poor framedata.
Ganon's Jab, DashATK, Ftilt, Nair, Uair is faster than Bayonetta's. Why are we comparing a poor framedata with an extremely bad one.
It doesn't matter if Dedede dash faster than Robin, he still has a poor dash speed.

So, you try harder. ;-)

 

[ぱみゅ]

Nitpicknitpick, Marth has Dolphin Slash as a F1 Combo Breaker when he's in the air (I'm not sure, but Ryu possibly has it too with Shoryuken), but they're huge commitments. Guess wrong and they'll get tons of lag and the opponent will hit with something bigger (although platforms may make this punishment trickier).
Bayonetta's is not as much of a commitment but is still a guessing work.


Now, I already gave my share about frame data.

Long story short, if your character can't truly threaten her with hitboxes barrages, projectiles, or big grab burst range, the character is VERY likely to lose.
And there is only a handful of characters able to do that.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

Why do People keep feeling Bayonetta has a frame 1 dodge? It is frame 5. Grab goes through Bat within and Bat within is only frame 1 if you spot dodge or air dodge which means the will appear in the same place or below with half of the damage.
Also, claiming I spread misinformation when spreading it yourself is very laughable. Neither Marth nor Ryu has a frame 1 combo breaker, lol.

Don't have enough time to respond to your entire post but you have a lot of mis-information here. So to start off yes, you're right, the airdodge doesn't technically start until frame 5. However, because bat within triggers on frames 1-4, she can get out of combos much easier than any other character. A lot of times, characters will be able to get a few attacks off of one grab (look at Mario with uair for instance). But if one of those characters miss their confirm by a frame, Bayonetta is free to escape and regain stage control in the process. Keep in mind this can save her from kill confirms out of grab. The other characters with frame 1 combo breakers can't regain stage control in the way she can. Practically no other character is able to escape combos like this. Though she receives half damage, she takes no knockback which is very good for her.

Further more Ryu and Marth both do have frame 1 combo breakers, don't say that they don't without doing your research. Ryu has TRSK and Marth has Dolphin Slash. Both moves have invincibility on frame one meaning anything that they can escape any combo so long as there's a frame for them to act. But even with the frame one combo breaker, they are left VERY vulnerable after the fact, so it can be baited and punished, HARD. Bayonetta however would not be as vulnerable seeing as it's just an airdodge. The other two characters would go into freefall and then suffer landing lag upon that.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Lol, guys look at who I main.

Marth's DS is frame 5. Invincibility on frame 4
Ryu's has frame 1 Combo Breaker if he use true light sure you can on the ground. No a combo breaker in my book.

xP

 

[Deleted member 269706]

Oh man, we better tell Kurogane that he doesn't know how to properly read game code! /s

Tfw people know more about your main than you...lol
Marth Frame Data
Ryu Frame Data

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Oh man, we better tell Kurogane that he doesn't know how to properly data mine! /s

Tfw people know more about your main than you...lol Source

****, I will go off myself now.

Sure you can is grounded only

 

[ぱみゅ]

The Grounded Version of DS doesn't have F1 invincibility (sadly not anymore), but the aerial one does.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

The Grounded Version of DS doesn't have F1 invincibility (sadly not anymore), but the aerial one does.

Good to know, thanks. Better go check it out.

Also, why is KH currently full of kitties now? It took forever to find Ryu.

 

[CreamyFatone]

All of this hard data talk is going nowhere.

Yes, Bayonetta's divekick, heel slide, dair, counter, bullet climax, crap rolls, and sometimes even her nair are punishable. You are granted that, it is POSSIBLE to punish Bayonetta because she has lag sometimes.

Realistically however, in real competitive play a Bayonetta player will make adjustments based on space and timing in order to ensure the smallest possibility of a punish with these moves, and due to the nature of her disjoint and plethora of options for landing safely and range, along with the fact that you always have to be counting frames in order to make sure she doesn't mash out Witch Time, gives her plenty of respect from her opponent. The only thing that really beats her consistently is grab, which sounds good except it's the only thing.

And to be honest, her neutral game doesn't even matter because even if you beat her in neutral the whole game she can still even it up in one good punish. It's really her punish game that you should be talking about, not her neutral. She's like an unbalanced ZSS.

Also, this discussion is getting kind of pedantic. I wouldn't suggest that people waste time on such a shallow argument.

 

[Sha-Shulk]

My beef with Bayonetta is her 0-death combos and her Bat-Within. Witch Time is really good, but it is punishable.
A character shouldn't be able to punish you on a jab and give you +40% or even KO you.

Of course, I play Shulk.... so everyone's combos give me a hard time.

EDIT: I agree with CreamyFatone. Bayonetta's PUNISH game is the issue. Her neutral game is adaptable, but it's her punishes that just make the game less fun.

My friend always follows the top-tiers, and I've had success against him until he started using Bayonetta. I can't do a single thing without being punished for it or simply having him escape the combo and then punish me for doing anything.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Realistically however, in real competitive play a Bayonetta player will make adjustments based on space and timing in order to ensure the smallest possibility of a punish with these moves, and due to the nature of her disjoint and plethora of options for landing safely and range, along with the fact that you always have to be counting frames in order to make sure she doesn't mash out Witch Time, gives her plenty of respect from her opponent. The only thing that really beats her consistently is grab, which sounds good except it's the only thing.

Ain't that equally true for other characters. If we are going to the theoretical "real competitive play", we really need to wait for more data and find new Anti Bayo techs.

And to be honest, her neutral game doesn't even matter because even if you beat her in neutral the whole game she can still even it up in one good punish. It's really her punish game that you should be talking about, not her neutral. She's like an unbalanced ZSS.

It does, it is where her combos starts from and when she isn't comboing you.
ZSS also has a poor neutral due to bad grabs and bad ground moves, but her punish game is excellent. Bayonetta is a more extreme ZSS, poorer neutral game but greater punish game.

My beef with Bayonetta is her 0-death combos and her Bat-Within. Witch Time is really good, but it is punishable.
A character shouldn't be able to punish you on a jab and give you +40% or even KO you.

Of course, I play Shulk.... so everyone's combos give me a hard time.

EDIT: I agree with CreamyFatone. Bayonetta's PUNISH game is the issue. Her neutral game is adaptable, but it's her punishes that just make the game less fun.

My friend always follows the top-tiers, and I've had success against him until he started using Bayonetta. I can't do a single thing without being punished for it or simply having him escape the combo and then punish me for doing anything.

Damn, every move (cut grabs and Jab) has double digit startup. Shulk really has it hard.
Bat within still takes damage and it doesn't evade grabs. It is only one frame faster than the best dodges in the game.

Wish I can help a fellow Shulk, but I recommend looking for a secondary for this MU.

EDIT: Sorry for posting twice in a row.

 

[CreamyFatone]

Ain't that equally true for other characters. If we are going to the theoretical "real competitive play", we really need to wait for more data and find new Anti Bayo techs.


It does, it is where her combos starts from and when she isn't comboing you.
ZSS also has a poor neutral due to bad grabs and bad ground moves, but her punish game is excellent. Bayonetta is a more extreme ZSS, poorer neutral game but greater punish game.

Yeah, a bad neutral game if you're a bad Bayonetta player, who doesn't properly take advantage of what I described in my last post. Not going to repeat myself.

I wanted to say something about a bad neutral not justifying an overpowered punish, but that discussion would be pointless because I think that everybody except you understands that.

 

[teluoborg]

Yeah, a quick look at frame data will show you that.
All has been said about Jiggs and Marth, and Ryu has frame 1 super armor on his focus. That is indeed situational but in a lot of "not a true combo" situations that's enough to tank a hit and dash away from pressure. Same can be said for Bat Within.

WFT got a better framedata than a number of cast including Bayonetta.
Palutena sucks in terms of framedata, that doesn't mean anyone better doesn't have poor framedata.
Ganon's Jab, DashATK, Ftilt, Nair, Uair is faster than Bayonetta's. Why are we comparing a poor framedata with an extremely bad one.
It doesn't matter if Dedede dash faster than Robin, he still has a poor dash speed.

Oh boy I'm really going to have to go through the basics, right ?

Bayonetta can have all the startup she wants, she forces people to wait and play reactively solely because of the threat Witch Time poses. Just because she can 0 to death people (or at least deal really heavy damage) from a single Witch Time means her opponent has to let her throw her move first because the risk/reward ratio just isn't worth it.
Right now the only character that can afford to be proactive against Bayo is Greninja because his side B makes the risk/reward ratio tolerable.

So yeah, stop with the "muh frame 7" act please.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Yeah, a bad neutral game if you're a bad Bayonetta player, who doesn't properly take advantage of what I described in my last post. Not going to repeat myself.

I wanted to say something about a bad neutral not justifying an overpowered punish, but that discussion would be pointless because I think that everybody except you understands that.

Are we going to imagine a magical "good xxx player"? In theory, if we are really talking about a good player, we obviously can't beat that player because he is so good. But normal players makes mistakes and strive to punish the tiniest of mistakes.

I got a strong Little Mac vibe...
"A bad air game doesn't justify an OP ground game, *insert insult to me here*"
Sorry, but we really need to Keep calm and Do the impossible.

Yeah, a quick look at frame data will show you that.
All has been said about Jiggs and Marth, and Ryu has frame 1 super armor on his focus. That is indeed situational but in a lot of "not a true combo" situations that's enough to tank a hit and dash away from pressure. Same can be said for Bat Within.
Oh boy I'm really going to have to go through the basics, right ?

Yep, looks like I was completely wrong on that. But I want to add, Bayonetta has the worst dodges in the game (roll does end 3 frame sooner than Samus's), the bat within is her only saving gracing and it still takes damage and doesn't counter grabs.

Bayonetta can have all the startup she wants, she forces people to wait and play reactively solely because of the threat Witch Time poses. Just because she can 0 to death people (or at least deal really heavy damage) from a single Witch Time means her opponent has to let her throw her move first because the risk/reward ratio just isn't worth it.
Right now the only character that can afford to be proactive against Bayo is Greninja because his side B makes the risk/reward ratio tolerable.

So yeah, stop with the "muh frame 7" act please.

Another Bayonetta force people to play in a certain way argument, most character force you play a certain way too and often there is many ways to deal with them if you look harder. Bayonetta is only one month old, and people has already started to counter her.
Witch Time is in the end just another counter, falling for it was your mistake. Witch Time even decays like Shulk's counter, so you can't spam it.
Bayonetta having a bad startup is already a con to her, the "It doesn't matter if xxx" doesn't work here.

 

[Shaya]

I wanted to say something about a bad neutral not justifying an overpowered punish, but that discussion would be pointless because I think that everybody except you understands that.

Unnecessary.

Another Bayonetta force people to play in a certain way argument, most character force you play a certain way too and often there is many ways to deal with them if you look harder. Bayonetta is only one month old, and people has already started to counter her.
Witch Time is in the end just another counter, falling for it was your mistake. Witch Time even decays like Shulk's counter, so you can't spam it.
Bayonetta having a bad startup is already a con to her, the "It doesn't matter if xxx" doesn't work here.

We can try to go above the semantic arguments, at least.
The way she's forcing you to play (due to to the threat of her unmatched damage racking and feasibility of a stock taken in most situations) is unlike other characters in the cast or in Smash in general; the exception being Ice Climbers. While it isn't fair to say "it's as bad as ICs", it's really the fairest comparison.

For a vacuum comparison (not to have it justify anything in particular), Zero Suit's grab, which can lead to high damage combos or potentially death (not realistic to be consistent) not only has 16 frames start up - which is feasibly reactable, but over fifty frames of lag. Essentially all of Bayo's tools that can lead to such reward are half the start up (or less) and half the end lag/punishment window.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

For a vacuum comparison (not to have it justify anything in particular), Zero Suit's grab, which can lead to high damage combos or potentially death (not realistic to be consistent) not only has 16 frames start up - which is feasibly reactable, but over fifty frames of lag. Essentially all of Bayo's tools that can lead to such reward are half the start up (or less) and half the end lag/punishment window.

However, ZSS has a better (albeit still poor) neutral game.
ZSS has much more than grabs, she sports excellent mobility and overall better framedata than Bayonetta.
ZSS having bad grab didn't mean her other moves aren't quicker and better.

ZSS is feared not for her grab game, but her punish game.

 

[Shaya]

A reminder, that I mean in a vacuum for just one particular (so you're not telling me anything I wouldn't know) except
She is definitely feared for her grab game. It's an extremely risky grab but you'd be hard pressed to find a ZSS who wouldn't agree it isn't a big part of how she exudes pressure and wins games.
Seeing as nothing else she has reliably beats shields other than falling aerials (so roughly 30 frames start up for people to react to) she relies purely on her excellent mobility to compensate for her inherent massive amounts of risk or for less risk significant start up times.

Her rewards for getting successful hits of nair or up air (finicky) are otherwise what she's feared for, and they aren't inherently punishes (one could argue they are, semantics, but these are coming from her movements in 'neutral').

 

[teluoborg]

I like to distinguish punishes from neutral usable moves by the definition that punishes are moves too unsafe to be thrown out when your opponent is in full possession of his options.

ZSS' Nair is a good move for her neutral while her grab is more of a punish move, especially after the active frames nerf.

 

[blackghost]

I just really want an explanation on this ridiculous fear of wt. It's a counter with nothing guaranteed after. The only characters I see as complaining about witchtime time fairly are bayo herself in the mirror and sword users both due to extended hit boxes. Other characters she has to read your attack to get witch time.
She has no good approach and as this thread has talked about frame 7 moves as go to offense starters. With no disjoint to speak of except maybe bair. Locally no one gives me issues for her her offense isn't easy to start by any means. And defensive options are only effective against predictable opponents and people that just won't grab for whatever reason.

 

[teluoborg]

Are you drunk or do you really expect people to take you seriously when you say that witch time doesn't have guaranteed follow ups ?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

****, I will go off myself now.

Sure you can is grounded only

It's in the air too. (Yes I realise this isn't clearly labeled on the site, I'll fix it eventually).

 

[SoccerStar9001]

It's in the air too. (Yes I realise this isn't clearly labeled on the site, I'll fix it eventually).

Damn, I am getting OWNED!
Ps Why so much Kittens?

 

[blackghost]

Are you drunk or do you really expect people to take you seriously when you say that witch time doesn't have guaranteed follow ups ?

witch time isnt a lfow chart move. what you get varies heavily depending on what move you just countered. which will only get harder as more people adapt and stop just complaijing on foirums like this. witch time will get worse over time epseically as its already been nerfed.
so no im not drunk but if you have nothing to contribute dont post.

 

[David Viran]

witch time isnt a lfow chart move. what you get varies heavily depending on what move you just countered. which will only get harder as more people adapt and stop just complaijing on foirums like this. witch time will get worse over time epseically as its already been nerfed.
so no im not drunk but if you have nothing to contribute dont post.

I'm not quite following what you are saying. If you get a witch time , as long as it's not stale, you should use a dtilt if they are close to the ground or use an utilt if they are higher in the air and then do whatever you want after. Witch time doesn't discriminate between moves when calculating how long the slow down effect lasts so this strategy works pretty reliably.

 

[blackghost]

I'm not quite following what you are saying. If you get a witch time , as long as it's not stale, you should use a dtilt if they are close to the ground or use an utilt if they are higher in the air and then do whatever you want after. Witch time doesn't discriminate between moves when calculating how long the slow down effect lasts so this strategy works pretty reliably.

post nerf witch time is worthless unless it hasnt been attempted recently at all. you dont get enough time to do multple hits. also in my local scene players have adapted to use mutlhit appraoches and aerials. ryu stay on the ground and cancels into true shoryuken. many players will find answers i dont believe witch time will stay as reliable kill setup in the future at all.

 

[LakerLink]

Bayo is way too good

 

[Sha-Shulk]

Quick question: Which FE character am I?

Also, (related to this thread), I feel that anti-bayonetta techs and MUs will be found, but the fact that a single character has disrupted the meta and totally turned character's playstyles (Mario's utilt isn't reliable anymore, because... bat within) into frantic, quick-calculating, high risk attempts at getting to Bayonetta is pretty bad game design.

I think that Bat within should be reworked. Witch Time is "op" but it's honestly just like a regular counter (it punishes a characters attack and allows you to retaliate.) So no real beef there, EXCEPT that she can counter a jab or tilt and lead to 40% damage

Her aerial game is REALLY good, and combined with her bullet arts on the ground I find myself being stuck on the other side of FD just waiting for Bayonetta to maybe approach me (she never does and the match stalemates, until I approach, get punished for using my jab or dtilt, and then lose a stock. Rinse repeat)

I feel like Bayonetta was a good idea, but any character that shifts all meta-focus (Meta Knight) should be considered problematic. I don't think that the character should be banned, but she should be reworked.

EDIT: I think it's comical that my Wii U main is Corrin, yet now it says that my 3DS main is Corrin.

 

[Theosmeo]

Quick question: Which FE character am I?

LEGAULT