Banning Bayonetta in Tournaments

[Ghidorah14]

Also her witch time IS TOO DAMN LONG! The purpose of that move is too ease her into combos, it should probably last 50-66% as long as it does.

No.

WT is for quick setups and kill confirms. The way it is now is basically perfect. Take away any more of the duration, and it will become useless beyond one use per stock for an uncharged upsmash, and in that case, what would make it different from other counters that just kill at high %?

If people want bayo to be less dumb, then fine. But what most people are suggesting would destroy the character completely. Nerfing WT any more would be like making cloud's limit take twice as long to build.

In my honest opinion, people dont want nerfs, they dont want bans, and they dont want to adapt; they just plain dont want to deal with bayonetta.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

It's entirely too early to even be talking about banning bayonetta.
I don't think too many people really think that bayonetta should be banned yet (it's just that the voice of those who do speak loudly.) Having said that, I'm pretty sure there are alot of people who agree she should be nerfed a little more and make sure her combos are not so guaranteed.

Many of her combos are not guarantee if you DI, she has to read your DI to chain properly.
This has the same logic as nerfing Little Mac's ground game like how many scrubs wanted at launch (no offense to you).

 

[Ralugi]

Bayonetta isn't even difficult to deal with. Any grappler or semi grappler can d throw her out of existence. Or even worse, zoning and Spammable characters can stop that little slide attack of hers, and I doubt love is blue will stop a fully charged shot from Samus or Link's bombs. Heck, you can use Luigi ' s or Mario ' s projectiles and they work just as fine.

I have fought terrible scrubs who try to exploit side b and her infinite ammo guns like Fox.

On the other hand, there are some monstrously good Bayonetta characters, which hats off to them. Easy to use, but one of the hardest to master.

 

[blackghost]

1. Despite that, who are we talking about now the most? Bayonetta. We've found ways to beat Sonic and Villager, and needle Sheiks cannot effectively camp anymore after the nerf.
2. People who weren't using her before are getting better results with her than their previous main. The notable examples to me are 9B (formerly Ryu) and Pink Fresh (formerly Lucas).
3. I can't dispute Sheik results.
4. When was Cloud not considered easy? He's not a hard character to play at all. Bayonetta isn't that hard either once you learn the timings of her moveset.
5. He says stuff about her not winning any of that yet simply put by the "lack of results" she has since she's only been out for a little over a month. The whining was there, I've heard numerous times about wanting Sheik, Rosa and ZSS nerfs around this board that there's no point in pointing it out. Now, people have what they wanted for Sheik and ZSS, where Rosalina remains unaffected.

1. then give her the time to learn how to counterplay as those characters did.
2. whats the point of this post? a good player uses an objectively better character and gets better results? dk will played a lot of shiek pre dk buff and his results got better too.
4.cloud is objectively an easy character. dont even see how thats a debate. anyone can play cloud as evidenced by all these poket clouds in doubles.
5. people do an awful lot of complaining about rosa however at top play she's almost like pikachu. she is carried by one exceptoional player. rosa isn't overpopulating results or majors. dabuz is.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

blackghost, I do feel Rosalina has some crazy stuff (Luma actually).
Luma Utilt (sweet), Uair, Dair has exceptional base knockback. With rage, it can get out of hand. But after trying Rosa out myself, I consider those three moves is really the only problem with her.

 

[Shuckle_SSB]

Any character with a decent crouch can just crouch under it.

Only useful if they also have a crawl. Even then, taking damage from it is inevitable. You can't crouch immediately from your shield and avoid every hit. If they can your shield you're gonna take some damage before you can act. Sure you can crouch most of the bullets obviously, but you still have to somehow close the distance between yourselves. Which alone is very hard with how little endlag her bullet climax has.

 

[Jenna Zant]

Only useful if they also have a crawl. Even then, taking damage from it is inevitable. You can't crouch immediately from your shield and avoid every hit. If they can your shield you're gonna take some damage before you can act. Sure you can crouch most of the bullets obviously, but you still have to somehow close the distance between yourselves. Which alone is very hard with how little endlag her bullet climax has.

You can just crouch and wait for her to stop doing it. She'll need to stop firing eventually.

 

[Theosmeo]

Heck, you can use Luigi ' s or Mario ' s projectiles and they work just as fine.
/QUOTE]

Actually no, she slides under most projectiles...

I don´t know, I was determined to main her when I saw the trailer because I love Bayonetta games and she looked super fun, but I got kinda bored of her. I still haven't played a Bayonetta player I couldn beat in tournament either so I feel like she´s not a problem really. Her frame 1 air dodge might seem annoying but I(even as Ganon) can just follow where she goes and put a strong hitbox there

 

[Ralugi]

Perhaps we're using different versions? I could've sworn it worked.

 

[itsmeMOB]

1. then give her the time to learn how to counterplay as those characters did.
2. whats the point of this post? a good player uses an objectively better character and gets better results? dk will played a lot of shiek pre dk buff and his results got better too.
4.cloud is objectively an easy character. dont even see how thats a debate. anyone can play cloud as evidenced by all these poket clouds in doubles.
5. people do an awful lot of complaining about rosa however at top play she's almost like pikachu. she is carried by one exceptoional player. rosa isn't overpopulating results or majors. dabuz is.

1. That's exactly what I was saying when ZeRo brought up the point. Learn her before complaining and adapt to nerfs.
2. Pink Fresh has been playing so much better and ranking higher since dropping Lucas for Bayonetta. That's what ZeRo has been talking about when people have been getting better results with her than their previous mains. Same goes for 9B dropping Ryu for her.
4. I was never debating the fact that Cloud is a fairly easy character to play. Who even said he was hard to play on this board?
5. Even so, people still complain about wanting nerfs for her, yet has hardly received any since ZSS and Sheik have gotten hit. Even if Dabuz is carrying her, where are her balances?

 

[SoccerStar9001]

2. Pink Fresh definitely love the character, but many people can't really win with her so they switched back to their original main. Pink Fresh is one of the only player that sticked with Bayonetta because he felt his Bayonetta was better than his Lucas.
If Bayonetta was really easy to master more people would have dropped their mains for her.
5. I think most of Rosaluma is fine, only 3 moves are crazy (Luma Utilt, Uair, Dair).

 

[chipndip]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gilsv3c4-7I

I don't even know how they're going to address this kit. The first round of nerfs didn't fix her at all and she's still paralyzing peoples' offensive options while having a huge myriad of them that all combo into themselves and confirm into high damage for herself. I made a thread on just that before because I was completely at a loss on what to look for to beat it, and it basically boils down to "out play it". But out playing goes both ways, and the enemy Bayo can just out play you in return...so how is that necessarily fair at all? Sure, her being able to out play her opponent is fair. What isn't fair is that any normal character that isn't Bayo gets maybe a good 15 - 30 percent off of a good hit or two, maybe a KO blow if the enemy's already weakened or more damage if they can land more follow-up hits in a nice pressure string, while Bayo can just take a character from the ground to the edge of the upper boundary and rack up so much damage their % turns blood red.

So I take another look at the Sm4sh scene and Bayo's apparently carrying people through tournaments and is throwing this place head over heels to the point where we might finally have our first banned character from competitive, just like Brawl's Meta Knight. Seriously, where does the game go from here when there's a character that gets huge mileage off of tiny mistakes while having very dominant, high damage offensive options of her own?

Edit: Thanks mods for keeping it classy and merging my thread with this already existing one. Appreciate it.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gilsv3c4-7I

I don't even know how they're going to address this kit. The first round of nerfs didn't fix her at all and she's still paralyzing peoples' offensive options while having a huge myriad of them that all combo into themselves and confirm into high damage for herself. I made a thread on just that before because I was completely at a loss on what to look for to beat it, and it basically boils down to "out play it". But out playing goes both ways, and the enemy Bayo can just out play you in return...so how is that necessarily fair at all? Sure, her being able to out play her opponent is fair. What isn't fair is that any normal character that isn't Bayo gets maybe a good 15 - 30 percent off of a good hit or two, maybe a KO blow if the enemy's already weakened or more damage if they can land more follow-up hits in a nice pressure string, while Bayo can just take a character from the ground to the edge of the upper boundary and rack up so much damage their % turns blood red.

So I take another look at the Sm4sh scene and Bayo's apparently carrying people through tournaments and is throwing this place head over heels to the point where we might finally have our first banned character from competitive, just like Brawl's Meta Knight. Seriously, where does the game go from here when there's a character that gets huge mileage off of tiny mistakes while having very dominant, high damage offensive options of her own?

Edit: Thanks mods for keeping it classy and merging my thread with this already existing one. Appreciate it.

Like we banned Little Mac right?
Are we really gonna ban a one month old character?

 

[Deaga]

To be fair, only scrubs ever complained about Little Mac, while we have Zero of all people whining about Bayonetta right now. So I don't think that analogy is anywhere near valid.

 

[Ghidorah14]

The first round of nerfs didn't fix her at all

Thats because you guys arent looking for "fixes;" you're looking for a complete neutering of a character you dont want to be bothered learning how to deal with. Instead of holding out hope that if you complain enough, she'll get nerfed into the ground, you should be in the lab, online, or even fighting LV9 CPUs to see what works and what doesnt.

and she's still paralyzing peoples' offensive options while having a huge myriad of them that all combo into themselves and confirm into high damage for herself. I made a thread on just that before because I was completely at a loss on what to look for to beat it, and it basically boils down to "out play it". But out playing goes both ways, and the enemy Bayo can just out play you in return...so how is that necessarily fair at all? Sure, her being able to out play her opponent is fair. What isn't fair is that any normal character that isn't Bayo gets maybe a good 15 - 30 percent off of a good hit or two, maybe a KO blow if the enemy's already weakened or more damage if they can land more follow-up hits in a nice pressure string, while Bayo can just take a character from the ground to the edge of the upper boundary and rack up so much damage their % turns blood red.

So what you're saying is...the combo-based character...can do combos? And thats...not ok?

Hey, here's a thought; lets take the puppet character (rosalina) and make it so that using her puppet (luma) is worthless. I mean, why bother learning how to deal with luma? It's so annoying, and unfair, too.

So I take another look at the Sm4sh scene and Bayo's apparently carrying people through tournaments

This just in! Top tier characters...are really, really good!

We'll have a full story @11:00.

and is throwing this place head over heels to the point where we might finally have our first banned character from competitive, just like Brawl's Meta Knight. Seriously, where does the game go from here when there's a character that gets huge mileage off of tiny mistakes while having very dominant, high damage offensive options of her own?

This might sound crazy, but just hear me out. We can, possibly, maybe...learn the matchup...? And not be nerf happy scrubs?

I think we can manage that for a few months and see where things stand, no?

 

[LightningHelix]

To be fair, only scrubs ever complained about Little Mac, while we have Zero of all people whining about Bayonetta right now. So I don't think that analogy is anywhere near valid.

Zero isn't the only one.

Katakiri also had this a s a response about bayo on th Ohio PR:

"This character is going to kill this game. And by this I mean the optimal way to fight her is to run the clock, you're delusional if you think there's a better way because she is the only character in this or any fighting game that just ends your stock if you actually try to play the game. (You could play footies & space against ICs, not Bayo. A Witch Time's a Witch Time, you can't say it's only half) To high-leveled players timing her out might not be so bad (that's a lie, sorry but **** that) but to mid- & low-level players that might not get that they need to play like that nor do they want to play like that, they're just not going to play this game because they have no shot of winning if they, god forbid, want to actually play the game against Bayonetta because Bayo punishes that, hard. Bar maybe pre-patch Diddy, no character has been this polarizing in Smash 4 and like it or not, you have to accept that there's far more reason behind it than "lol ur just salty". If your community wants a character banned THAT vocally, you have to at least listen and consider it or you're just not going to have a community anymore.

Anyway as for the nitty gritty of Bayo herself, I don't give a **** about her 0-deaths since SDI mix-ups turns them into multiple sets of 50-50s. What I have a problem with is the outrageous hitbox sizes and frame data of Witch Twist & ABK and the move that has no business existing period: Witch Time.

Witch Twist would actually be the best move in the game if Witch Time didn't exist. Let's completely ignore the fact if sets up for 0-deaths or any-percent-deaths in reality. The hitbox size put Brawl MK's Mach Tornado to shame and as a frame 4 option OoS, it makes Bayonetta's shield only very slightly less broken than Witch Time. Nothing beat this move from above. Maybe a Link Bomb or something but no relevant D-Air is out-ranging Witch Twist. So from the Bayo player's perspective the juggling decision comes down to: "Hmm do I Witch Twist now? Or do I wait for the air dodge and then Witch Twist? Or do I just shield and Witch Twist his landing OoS? Hmmm so many choices and all of them Witch Twist." Bayonetta' advantage state is so simple a toddler could play it. Do you remember the Trophy mini-game in Melee Classic mode? It's basically that; throw out a hitbox on the falling target, they can't do **** back to you, the hitbox is too big.

Speaking of which, holy **** if there's any other reason to ban Bayonetta, it's Witch Time. I could write a book on how stupid this move is. Yes it's partly what the move itself does but it's also what the move makes the opponent do: nothing. The optimal way to fight Bayonetta is to time her out with projectiles; and even then, she's a good enough character to make that extremely difficult as well. It is not okay to attack Bayonetta; that is a ****ing fallacy in a fighting game. Given maybe a good 20 frames more start-up than it has, maaaaybe Witch Time would be somewhat balanced but that's not happening and if think that nerf IS coming, you're delusional because that's not how Sakurai nerfs, he rarely if ever increases move start-up. He can add a good 30 frames of endlag to Witch Time but that doesn't change a thing.

ABK's hit box is just too ****ing big. You're never gimping Bayo. Not much else to say there.

Bayo's damage output is also hilariously high which also makes timing her out that much harder. A 50% lead? That's one combo and some Bullet Arts pocket change, like, it's actually nothing."

 

[chipndip]

Like we banned Little Mac right?
Are we really gonna ban a one month old character?

Well, don't get me wrong here. I don't agree with banning characters in most instances, especially not when they're only a month old.

HOWEVER:

I think it's the biggest BS line of them all to throw out the "git gud" line at people when they have issues with Bayo. Her approach to the neutral isn't even CLOSE to how "weak" people on the Bayo boards say it is due to her high mobility and high threat. Unlike others where their more dangerous options lead to a decent deal of damage and some pressure for the opponent onto you, Bayo can take the slightest confirms or the randomest Witch Time and turn that into HUGE damage...or even 0 to KO out of nowhere. Even if there IS more to be learned, is that sheer amount of payout for countering a random jab "smart design"? The point of counters scaling in power based on what they counter is so countering a random jab doesn't blow someone up for 60+ damage or KO them from like 65%, and those that are more set in stone like Peach or Greninja work in ways that they aren't going to cheese someone out of a stock clean out of nowhere anyway. That threat + the fact that Bayo's got a ton of strong hit-boxes you have to respect + she's got a good deal of mobility on the ground and in the air + she isn't so open on whiffs, nor is anyone as stupidly designed as Bayo, that you can get nearly as much damage onto her off of her mistakes as she can on you for even lesser mistakes...all this adds up to a horribly toxic kit by design.

If you watch the link, it's basically ZeRo's commentary on the matter with a good deal of Bayo play playing over it. It's not hard to see she's going to need a crap ton of nerfing in a lot of fields to make her less broken...probably in more fundamental parts of her kit, too (like how many times she can up-B and side-B/quarter-circle side-B in the air).

 

[Ghidorah14]

I dont think I've ever seen top players whine and cry over a character this much.

It's ****ing embarrassing.

 

[chipndip]

Thats because you guys arent looking for "fixes;" you're looking for a complete neutering of a character you dont want to be bothered learning how to deal with. Instead of holding out hope that if you complain enough, she'll get nerfed into the ground, you should be in the lab, online, or even fighting LV9 CPUs to see what works and what doesnt.

So what you're saying is...the combo-based character...can do combos? And thats...not ok?

Hey, here's a thought; lets take the puppet character (rosalina) and make it so that using her puppet (luma) is worthless. I mean, why bother learning how to deal with luma? It's so annoying, and unfair, too.

This just in! Top tier characters...are really, really good!

We'll have a full story @11:00.

This might sound crazy, but just hear me out. We can, possibly, maybe...learn the matchup...? And not be nerf happy scrubs?

I think we can manage that for a few months and see where things stand, no?

1) You being an abrasive child with your replies to people throughout this thread doesn't make you right. Last time I posted on my issues with Bayo, I asked for advice. Then I tried it. I got a few wins against random Bayos online, sure, but eventually they'd just figure out I'm camping them and rush me down or Witch Time me when I eventually tried to cash in a stock. Or they'd land one random confirm and make it so camping with projectiles would never make up the difference in % between us because every confirm Bayo lands does insane damage, even the simple ass ones you can learn on day one. So I put the game down and focused on RPGs and LoL cause any time I play against Bayo, the game goes from one of my favorite franchises ever to a bad decision to even pop it in.

2) You know a lot of characters have combos, right? Difference is that others net like 20 - 30 percent off of most of them. Bayo's dragging people up to the top of the screen and landing like 60% off her confirms. Just cause Ryu can Shoryuken doesn't mean it should do 75% damage if he sweet spots it. Same thing here. You can majorly dial down the damage from these combos and make her way less toxic that way. That's one solution.

So, here's MY idea. Let's not act entirely ignorant to a blatantly obvious problem in a character's design.

 

[FallenHero]

Damn it Europe it's all your fault!

 

[LightningHelix]

I dont think I've ever seen top players whine and cry over a character this much.

It's ****ing embarrassing.

Top players would be the best litmus test on whether or not something is strong or just plain dumb, as they possess the most experience and have been "in the trenches" more than most. (However, they are subjected to their own biases as well, of course.)

This sort of problem has existed in many competitive games outside of smash, as well. Many top players have taken hiatus' from games that just got stupid due to bad balancing. We could all say "well, just play the best character in the game and this won't be an issue." The problem with this mindset is that believe it or not, people actually play this game for fun. 99.9% of us don't play for money, but for competitive fun.

Now I don't think anyone can say for sure that Bayonetta is just too dumb right now, because she's so different that we probably need more time to adapt. However, give it another several months and it will become more clear.

 

[JoJoe]

I dont think I've ever seen top players whine and cry over a character this much.

It's ****ing embarrassing.

Not as embarrassing as being a nobody Bayonetta main :^)

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Wow, wall of complaints. This is just like Little Mac all over again. The only difference is Little Mac didn't have the chance to sweep any tournament since there is no serious one in the first week.

Witch Twist is Bayonetta's fastest move, everything else (even grabs) have at least 7 frames of startup. Witch Twist is also flawed as it guarantee at least 19 frames of landing lag. Bayonetta has a lot of landing lag after using specials in the air, people need to punish that. Bayonetta's mobility is also sub par as without her specials, keeping up with fast opponents are hard and her specials give her landing lag.

Giving Witch Time 20 more frames of startup is the most stupid thing I even seen. Human reaction time is 12 frames, you have literally be stupid to fall for a frame 25 counter.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Ok, so let's cut down the steam of this heated discussion a bit.

Bayo is strong, potentially the best character in the game right now.
She has few options against camping or good neutral/projectile pressure.
All in all, she is very beatable, more beatable than Brawl's MK/IC, and imo, about the same if not worse than Melee's Fox.
I understand people refusing to change their playstyle for her, but that's more or less what "adapting to the metagame" is. Is like being served only meat and you chopping it with your fork and then refusing to switch to a spoon when a soup is served.

Is she worthy to be banned?
IMO she's not, at least not with the not overwhelming results she currently has.
If we get to that point ON A WIDE SCALE measures will sure be taken in due time, by either the community, the TOs, or the developers themselves with a patch. Only time will tell.



Whatever the case: Discussion on the topic is allowed, but PLEASE, be civil.

 

[Ghidorah14]

1) You being an abrasive child with your replies to people throughout this thread doesn't make you right. Last time I posted on my issues with Bayo, I asked for advice. Then I tried it. I got a few wins against random Bayos online, sure, but eventually they'd just figure out I'm camping them and rush me down

>bayonetta
>rushdown

Surely you jest.

or Witch Time me when I eventually tried to cash in a stock.

Then dont get ansy for the kill. Bait out the witch time like you would a regular counter.

Or they'd land one random confirm and make it so camping with projectiles would never make up the difference in % between us because every confirm Bayo lands does insane damage, even the simple *** ones you can learn on day one. So I put the game down and focused on RPGs and LoL cause any time I play against Bayo, the game goes from one of my favorite franchises ever to a bad decision to even pop it in.

So in other words, when bayo's got you down, you just go and play other games instead of practicing and getting better at the matchup.

I think I found your problem.

2) You know a lot of characters have combos, right? Difference is that others net like 20 - 30 percent off of most of them. Bayo's dragging people up to the top of the screen and landing like 60% off her confirms. Just cause Ryu can Shoryuken doesn't mean it should do 75% damage if he sweet spots it. Same thing here. You can majorly dial down the damage from these combos and make her way less toxic that way. That's one solution.

So basically you want to make it so that bayo needs to hit you like 50 times to do the same amount of damage a typical braindead dthrow-aerial combo does?

Why even play the character then? Thats like lucario but without the aura.

So, here's MY idea. Let's not act entirely ignorant to a blatantly obvious problem in a character's design.

And here's MY idea. Let's not act entirely like crybaby scrublords when faced with a character that requires you to learn and adapt to her unique playstyle.




EDIT: BTW I dont main bayonetta. I main bowser/mewtwo. I'm not good enough with her to have her as my main.

 

[chipndip]

Wow, wall of complaints. This is just like Little Mac all over again. The only difference is Little Mac didn't have the chance to sweep any tournament since there is no serious one in the first week.

Witch Twist is Bayonetta's fastest move, everything else (even grabs) have at least 7 frames of startup. Witch Twist is also flawed as it guarantee at least 19 frames of landing lag. Bayonetta has a lot of landing lag after using specials in the air, people need to punish that. Bayonetta's mobility is also sub par as without her specials, keeping up with fast opponents are hard and her specials give her landing lag.

Giving Witch Time 20 more frames of startup is the most stupid thing I even seen. Human reaction time is 12 frames, you have literally be stupid to fall for a frame 25 counter.

I think we're kidding ourselves if we're saying Bayo's in any way "slow" or "unable to keep up with fast opponents". She can keep pace with or straight up outpace most of the roster. She also has a crap ton of options in the air, so even if you want to punish her landings, she's got a ton of ways to vary her landing patterns.

As for Witch Time, they could put her little bat gimmick at the START of the counter and put the Witch Time near the end, or make it so you have to pass a certain threshold of damage + knock back before it registers as a Witch Time instead of the bat gimmick.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

You know a lot of characters have combos, right? Difference is that others net like 20 - 30 percent off of most of them. Bayo's dragging people up to the top of the screen and landing like 60% off her confirms. Just cause Ryu can Shoryuken doesn't mean it should do 75% damage if he sweet spots it. Same thing here. You can majorly dial down the damage from these combos and make her way less toxic that way. That's one solution.

Let's do math:
Bayonetta's most damaging combo:
dABK dABK Fair1 UpB Fair1 UpB Uair
dABK does 8%
Fair 1 does 3.8%
UpB does 2% + 0.2% x 6 + 3% = 6.2%
Uair does 9%
8 + 8 + 3.8 + 6.2 + 3.8 + 6.2% + 9 = 45
The biggest combo does 45% (stale not include, so odds are less than 45%).
Where did 60% come from?

 

[Funbot28]

Look I think we can all agree that Bayo may need a nerf one way or another (preferably adding a tad more lag on Witch Twist and ABK, Witch Time was nerfed and is fine now imo), but the part that worries me is that we do not know if any new patches are gonna be implemented as the game has really reached its final development at this point (I personally believe 1.15 only existed to fix certain bugs and glitches, in which they took this opportunity to place nerfs/buffs). So if Bayonetta remains at her current state for the remaining existence of this game, than more collateral damage may exist down the line in which it may not be too evident at this point. Still don't agree with the Brawl MK comparisons, but I can see relations to PM 3.0 Mewtwo and Melee Jigglypuff...

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Bayonetta has poor walk speed (below Doctor Mario), average run speed (same as Mario), below average air speed (lower than pre patch Bowser).

Her mobility is pretty poor overall.

She can vary her landing but using more specials only adds to the landing lag. She has to land at some point, and people punish need to punish that.

 

[Ax^2]

Best solution to nerfing bayonetta.

Increase base knocback and knockback growth on witch twist. Add more endlag on witch time. Nerf knocback on aerials. Increase SDI effectivenesss in game or increase knockback of Bayonetta's jab.

 

[chipndip]

>bayonetta
A good amount of fedora tipping

Alright, look man: Being a random fedora tipper on the forum isn't earning you any W's. Not trying to heat up the conversation (for any mods getting a bit concerned reading this), but you can tone down the excessive hyperbole and the snide remarks. It's like you're so busy trying to be a hipster on the topic you're ignoring the different parts that make her a problem:

- Her output per combo isn't even CLOSE to normal. She's straight up walking people along to the upper boundary and KO'ing them. She's netting insane amounts of damage off of random confirms or random counters. How does someone justify her type of damage from her combos? Even her standard jab combo does near 20%...for spamming the A button. I literally linked a video with one of the best players in the world calling all these things total bs. Her damage output and the fact that she can just grab her opponent, climb to the upper boundary, and just fling them over it is an EXTREME outlier to the game flow in comparison to when it concerns almost any other character in the game, bar none.

- She is OBVIOUSLY fast. So because she can't combo or KO-confirm off of her throws she can't just throw you anyway to open you up? So you're gonna stand there blocking FOREVER while she's gonna sit there waiting the whole time? Bayo's mobility on the ground and in the air isn't some random joke just because some Bayo players want to downplay how ridiculous she is as a whole. Just cause her throw isn't filled with a ton of lucrative options out of it doesn't mean she can't use it to open you up and then go for other options.

- Her hit-boxes are oppressive. There's no winning a trade. If you hit a button and she hits a button, more often than not she'll win. If she didn't win a trade, she probably countered instead. Sure, some characters have some strong hit-boxes. Bayo has then on a ton of different moves. When DO you approach this character? When does someone take the fight to her? Is it honestly fair and balanced to say you simply can't?

You can't say "Bait the counter" if you also have to play campy as hell because everything she does beats everything you do and then confirms into stupidly high rewards for it. No one that defends Bayo has a solid idea on how to actually play the game and take the fight to her. It's all "throw projectiles" and "bait it/wait it out". So when DO you get to make the first move and do something against her? Where's the balance in a character that simply cannot be punished as hard by her opponents as she can punish them simply due to the environment she's in and how much of an outlier to it she is? And lastly, how are you able to crack these jokes about anyone and everyone that has an issue with this character while having no answer to this myriad of issues outside of "git gud"?

 

[ぱみゅ]

Let's do math:
Bayonetta's most damaging combo:
dABK dABK Fair1 UpB Fair1 UpB Uair
dABK does 8%
Fair 1 does 3.8%
UpB does 2% + 0.2% x 6 + 3% = 6.2%
Uair does 9%
8 + 8 + 3.8 + 6.2 + 3.8 + 6.2% + 9 = 45
The biggest combo does 45% (stale not include, so odds are less than 45%).
Where did 60% come from?

Technically, the most damaging combo is the one starting with Dtilt, which is 50+%. 60 is a bit of an exaggeration, but not too far off.

Best solution to nerfing bayonetta.

Increase base knocback and knockback growth on witch twist. Add more endlag on witch time. Nerf knocback on aerials. Increase SDI effectivenesss in game or increase knockback of Bayonetta's jab.

I think the best solution is simply changing the j.236B:
1) Reduce the distance she bounces off.
Along with either:
2a) Reduce knockback so it sends lower all the time
2b) Scales so it bounces opponents much less at low percents, mids setup for higher combos, and highs the opponent is too far from any followup.

Just my idea. Would keep the character with the essence and make you able to do what Witch Time is supposed to: punish with a Smash Attack, but the "Any %" death combos would be pretty much gone.

 

[chipndip]

Let's do math:
Bayonetta's most damaging combo:
dABK dABK Fair1 UpB Fair1 UpB Uair
dABK does 8%
Fair 1 does 3.8%
UpB does 2% + 0.2% x 6 + 3% = 6.2%
Uair does 9%
8 + 8 + 3.8 + 6.2 + 3.8 + 6.2% + 9 = 45
The biggest combo does 45% (stale not include, so odds are less than 45%).
Where did 60% come from?

Sorry. Like I said, after making that other thread, but getting basically running into the same problems, I put the game down outside of playing locally with friends when I get the chance in favor of other games. 60% is a blind overstatement/guesstimate due to this, but her damage output per confirm is still extremely high in comparison to the rest of the roster.

 

[chipndip]

Bayonetta has poor walk speed (below Doctor Mario), average run speed (same as Mario), below average air speed (lower than pre patch Bowser).

Her mobility is pretty poor overall.

She can vary her landing but using more specials only adds to the landing lag. She has to land at some point, and people punish need to punish that.

Her mobility on the ground is average and in the air it's naturally "meh", but all her special moves drastically displace her positioning in the air in one way or another multiple times over.

She's not blinding fast like Pikachu or Sheik, but to say she's overall slow is deceptive because she's got a ton of tools to negate her natural air movement speed + almost everyone's ground movement speed is respectable in this game to the least to begin with. Unlike Bowser or Ganon who's gonna drop like a brick and eat a hit when they land, Bayo's got a large array of options to steadily burn through before she has to touch ground, and once she does she's back at it again.

But yea, her mobility assuming we aren't pressing B at all is kinda meh.

 

[ぱみゅ]

- Her hit-boxes are oppressive. There's no winning a trade. If you hit a button and she hits a button, more often than not she'll win. If she didn't win a trade, she probably countered instead. Sure, some characters have some strong hit-boxes. Bayo has then on a ton of different moves. When DO you approach this character? When does someone take the fight to her? Is it honestly fair and balanced to say you simply can't?

I just wanted to address this one point because it is flat-out untrue.
She doesn't "outbutton" you, she doesn't really win trades unless it's Bair or Dair (and both are pretty telegraphed most of the times). Everything else is either slow, has low single-move reward, won't lead to much more, or is a Counter.

About being slow, her framedata is bad, terrible even. If your character has several quick/safe options, she'll threaten Bayonetta, as she can't just throw her Normals in that scenario fr being slow, and being Counter its best option there, it will be obvious, so you'll either delay your moves, or grab her. Heck, even doing nothing as she throws it will stale WT and the recent patch made its stale version noticeable worse.
THAT is what "baiting WT" is about.

Granted, not every character can do it, and it is more reliable for some than it is for others, but it is the weakness the meta is supposed to address.
You character can do it? Viable. It can't? Bad news.

 

[Ghidorah14]

Alright, look man: Being a random fedora tipper on the forum isn't earning you any W's. Not trying to heat up the conversation (for any mods getting a bit concerned reading this), but you can tone down the excessive hyperbole and the snide remarks. It's like you're so busy trying to be a hipster on the topic you're ignoring the different parts that make her a problem:

I dunno where the hipster thing is coming from, but it's this thing called an opinion.

And as someone who actually plays bayonetta and doesnt refuse to out of some misguided sense of honor (ZeRo), I think I know a little bit more about her than some guys who just watch tournament matches on stream.

- Her output per combo isn't even CLOSE to normal. She's straight up walking people along to the upper boundary and KO'ing them.

Yeah. Thats her gimmick.

https://youtu.be/j1JERhUoQoU?t=27m6s

She's netting insane amounts of damage off of random confirms or random counters. How does someone justify 60% damage combos?

Why are the confirms or counters random? There's no such thing as a random hit confirm, because thats the whole point of a hit conform.

"Did it hit?"
If yes...
"Ok, I can continue the combo!"
If no...
"Better not do the combo, or I'll get punished."

You must hate street fighter then, if "random confirms" bother you so much.

And stop exaggerating the damage. That just shows how little you actually know about bayo.

Even her standard jab combo does near 20%...for spamming the A button.

Yeah, her FRAME 9 JAB. And the damage isnt even consistent.

Most people opt to not use her jab because the recovery is so piss poor.

I literally linked a video with one of the best players in the world calling all these things total bs.

How many top players are picking her up? And how many majors has she won?

Her damage output and the fact that she can just grab her opponent, climb to the upper boundary, and just fling them over it is an EXTREME outlier to the game flow in comparison to when it concerns almost any other character in the game, bar none.

Yeah, as opposed to other top tiers like sonic, who literally dictates the flow of a match, or sheik, who is just "optimal frame data the character," or zss who has one of the most frightening punish games in all of smash4 off of getting one grab.

- She is OBVIOUSLY fast. So because she can't combo or KO-confirm off of her throws she can't just throw you anyway to open you up? So you're gonna stand there blocking FOREVER while she's gonna sit there waiting the whole time?

Her f-throw, fresh, kills at like 150%, near the ledge. And if she's grabbing you that much...

MIX.
IT.
UP.

Bayo is especially deadly against predictable players. Her grab range is awful, anyway. Slow, too.

Bayo's mobility on the ground and in the air isn't some random joke just because some Bayo players want to downplay how ridiculous she is as a whole. Just cause her throw isn't filled with a ton of lucrative options out of it doesn't mean she can't use it to open you up and then go for other options.

Her grabs are about as threatening as little macs.

Her speed isnt bad, but merely good. She only seems so fast because of sideB (aerial and divekick) and witch twist.

- Her hit-boxes are oppressive. There's no winning a trade. If you hit a button and she hits a button, more often than not she'll win.

Have you seen her smash attacks? The have like -25 priority and lose to everything.

If she didn't win a trade, she probably countered instead. Sure, some characters have some strong hit-boxes. Bayo has then on a ton of different moves. When DO you approach this character? When does someone take the fight to her? Is it honestly fair and balanced to say you simply can't?

She's a bait and punish character. She WANTS you to approach so she can counterattack. Ths is why she has such a hard time with zoning characters.

You can't say "Bait the counter" if you also have to play campy as hell because everything she does beats everything you do

No it doesnt. I'm sorry for not going into further detail, but that is simply incorrect. If a bayo is beating everything you do, it's better she's spacing her moves better than you are, or just plain outplaying you.

and then confirms into stupidly high rewards for it. No one that defends Bayo has a solid idea on how to actually play the game and take the fight to her. It's all "throw projectiles" and "bait it/wait it out".

This right here tells me, clear as day, that you have not played competitive fighting games beyond smash. Things like "playing lame, camping, baiting, etc" are all incredibly important fundamentals in street fighter. If you want to win, sometimes you need to camp, or play lame.

Different characters and playstyles require different approaches and mindsets. If you come at bayo the same way you come at a DK or bowser, of course you're gonna have a bad time, just like you would if you played street fighter and fought guile or dhalsim the same way you did ken.

So when DO you get to make the first move and do something against her? Where's the balance in a character that simply cannot be punished as hard by her opponents as she can punish them simply due to the environment she's in and how much of an outlier to it she is?

Oh, she can be punished hard. The reason she punishes others so hard is because she's a (say it with me know)...

BAIT AND PUNISH CHARACTER.

If you're playing a character that doesnt also have a strong punish game, then obviously the punish ratio is gonna be skewed.

And lastly, how are you able to crack these jokes about anyone and everyone that has an issue with this character while having no answer to this myriad of issues outside of "git gud"?

I do have answers beyond "git gud." Unfortunately, it seems they fall on deaf ears time and time again.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Technically, the most damaging combo is the one starting with Dtilt, which is 50+%. 60 is a bit of an exaggeration, but not too far off.

Dtilt to dABK only connects if the opponent is Witch Timed.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Dtilt to dABK only connects if the opponent is Witch Timed.

I meant Dtilt>Uair>stuff
It would likely be regular ABK instead of 236B, but that's the gist of the point.

 

[Shaya]

BTW I dont main bayonetta. I main bowser/mewtwo. I'm not good enough with her to have her as my main.

And as someone who actually plays bayonetta and doesnt refuse to out of some misguided sense of honor (ZeRo), I think I know a little bit more about her than some guys who just watch tournament matches on stream.

This, among your demeaning tone, and seemingly no concept of how risk/reward works in Smash (yes, your 1-dimensional solutions totally work in a multi faceted free movement game); you're not saying much of anything more than "git gud" while reflecting little understanding of Smash at a high level.
Your ideas are fine for the average player who struggles with 1-dimensional for glory bayos; which is perhaps exactly what your entire purpose of your responses have been (you should make it more obvious, but when you're calling top level players embarrassing while spouting get gid it is a messy correlation); because I agree, everyone should learn the match up better and not knee-jerk or sheep along what stuff gets posted on social media (a big problem).

But if you (or people only capable of responding like you) continue with the crap, this thread is serving little purpose.
We all know she's barely released, we all know that initial opinions shift, it isn't wise that we sweepingly call for her banishment and we're perhaps crying much too early for nerfs when there is no solid indication she's detrimental at any level of play (which we know where the game is PRIMARILY balanced towards; more so than top level) asides from low/mid level complaints at this time [zomg 20% jab], which we see as a response of popularity of a character more so than their actual power level (see Little Mac).

 

[SoccerStar9001]

I meant Dtilt>Uair>stuff
It would likely be regular ABK instead of 236B, but that's the gist of the point.

Uair doesn't connect into anything unless the opponent is slowed down.
xP