Banning Bayonetta in Tournaments

[Ghidorah14]

This, among your demeaning tone, and seemingly no concept of how risk/reward works in Smash (yes, your 1-dimensional solutions totally work in a multi faceted free movement game); you're not saying much of anything more than "git gud" while reflecting little understanding of Smash at a high level.
Your ideas are fine for the average player who struggles with 1-dimensional for glory bayos; which is perhaps exactly what your entire purpose of your responses have been (you should make it more obvious, but when you're calling top level players embarrassing while spouting get gid it is a messy correlation); because I agree, everyone should learn the match up better and not knee-jerk or sheep along what stuff gets posted on social media (a big problem).

But if you (or people only capable of responding like you) continue with the crap, this thread is serving little purpose.
We all know she's barely released, we all know that initial opinions shift, it isn't wise that we sweepingly call for her banishment and we're perhaps crying much too early for nerfs when there is no solid indication she's detrimental at any level of play (which we know where the game is PRIMARILY balanced towards; more so than top level) asides from low/mid level complaints at this time [zomg 20% jab], which we see as a response of popularity of a character more so than their actual power level (see Little Mac).

So whats your point? Did you just come in here to belittle me or do you actually have a point to this post? What are you trying to say?

 

[chipndip]

I just wanted to address this one point because it is flat-out untrue.
She doesn't "outbutton" you, she doesn't really win trades unless it's Bair or Dair (and both are pretty telegraphed most of the times). Everything else is either slow, has low single-move reward, won't lead to much more, or is a Counter.

About being slow, her framedata is bad, terrible even. If your character has several quick/safe options, she'll threaten Bayonetta, as she can't just throw her Normals in that scenario fr being slow, and being Counter its best option there, it will be obvious, so you'll either delay your moves, or grab her. Heck, even doing nothing as she throws it will stale WT and the recent patch made its stale version noticeable worse.
THAT is what "baiting WT" is about.

Granted, not every character can do it, and it is more reliable for some than it is for others, but it is the weakness the meta is supposed to address.
You character can do it? Viable. It can't? Bad news.

Well, with this said.

Idk if I'm doing something wrong (well we probably know I am), but I don't usually see myself beating her ABK (dive kick or not) or Heel Slide...or her Witch Twist...and that's on top of her d-air and b-air. To boot, due to the threat of her Witch Time, my offense, which is usually a bit more fluid against most players and characters, ends up feeling incredibly clumsy when playing against her. It's like I literally lose confidence to tango with this girl because if even if I mistime what would under any normal circumstance be a slightly punishable mistake (IE: You block my jab, you throw me with a follow-up), she gets a crap ton of damage and pressure off of it. If she lands a WT off of it, even if it's an otherwise extremely safe move to be countered on (like a jab or a tilt), I eat smash attacks -> follow-ups. For anyone else, I'd throw out lighter moves waiting for the counter, and if they hit the lighter move, I get countered...but I'm not gonna be straight up removed from the stage. If they miss, I can go in. Bayo's an extremely different case, and it's the combination of all these things at once that makes it insanely frustrating to play against her.

Still, Bayo frustrates me beyond belief but I still do want to take away something from this and try again later, hopefully leading to better results. I just don't think the troubles end with WT. WT just makes them come to a point.

 

[Shaya]

"But if you (or people only capable of responding like you) continue with the crap, this thread is serving little purpose."
Was one of them.

Comments which come off as contrived 'gitgud' statements and the vitriol towards the community in general are stifling the conversation.
This was, almost immediately, stated at the start of this thread to not be tolerated here.

You can inform and attempt to educate a lot more respectfully than you have been.

If you would like more clarification, PM me.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

- Her output per combo isn't even CLOSE to normal. She's straight up walking people along to the upper boundary and KO'ing them. She's netting insane amounts of damage off of random confirms or random counters. How does someone justify her type of damage from her combos? Even her standard jab combo does near 20%...for spamming the A button. I literally linked a video with one of the best players in the world calling all these things total bs. Her damage output and the fact that she can just grab her opponent, climb to the upper boundary, and just fling them over it is an EXTREME outlier to the game flow in comparison to when it concerns almost any other character in the game, bar none.

Me: That's kinda her speciality. If her combo does the same amount of damage as other combos, why play Bayonetta? Why unnecessarily add complexity to her combos it does the same damage as other combos.
No disrespect to ZeRo, but even he can be a little wrong.

- She is OBVIOUSLY fast. So because she can't combo or KO-confirm off of her throws she can't just throw you anyway to open you up? So you're gonna stand there blocking FOREVER while she's gonna sit there waiting the whole time? Bayo's mobility on the ground and in the air isn't some random joke just because some Bayo players want to downplay how ridiculous she is as a whole. Just cause her throw isn't filled with a ton of lucrative options out of it doesn't mean she can't use it to open you up and then go for other options.

Me: Her mobility is poor, using specials have landing lag as a risk.
Her grab is frame 7 (frame 9 for dash grab), getting caught by her is much safer than getting caught by her combos. It is great for shielding opponents, but you don't get much if you get it.

- Her hit-boxes are oppressive. There's no winning a trade. If you hit a button and she hits a button, more often than not she'll win. If she didn't win a trade, she probably countered instead. Sure, some characters have some strong hit-boxes. Bayo has then on a ton of different moves. When DO you approach this character? When does someone take the fight to her? Is it honestly fair and balanced to say you simply can't?

Me: This reminds me of early Little Mac complaints. Saying you can't do something because a character can do something is unfair is quite silly. Any character you play against will try to cover your options with a counter to it. It is quite important to any fighting game. It sounded like you didn't really take the time to think about the matchup.

-You can't say "Bait the counter" if you also have to play campy as hell because everything she does beats everything you do and then confirms into stupidly high rewards for it. No one that defends Bayo has a solid idea on how to actually play the game and take the fight to her. It's all "throw projectiles" and "bait it/wait it out". So when DO you get to make the first move and do something against her? Where's the balance in a character that simply cannot be punished as hard by her opponents as she can punish them simply due to the environment she's in and how much of an outlier to it she is? And lastly, how are you able to crack these jokes about anyone and everyone that has an issue with this character while having no answer to this myriad of issues outside of "git gud"?

Me: More Little M- I mean Bayonetta complaints. Git gud is a true but very rude answer.
Try your best, and take your time. I struggled on both Little Mac and Bayonetta at first, but now matches are more closer and I became a better player overall.

 

[Ghidorah14]

The best advice I can give to anyone struggling against bayonetta is to play the character yourself. Learn her moves, her combos, her neutral, her edgeguard options, etc.

By doing so, you will be able to get into the mind of a bayonetta player. You will learn what bayonetta "wants to do," and by practicing with her, you'll learn what she can do, and cant do.

It's much easier to beat someone when you know what their options are.

 

[Sonicninja115]

The best advice I can give to anyone struggling against bayonetta is to play the character yourself. Learn her moves, her combos, her neutral, her edgeguard options, etc.

By doing so, you will be able to get into the mind of a bayonetta player. You will learn what bayonetta "wants to do," and by practicing with her, you'll learn what she can do, and cant do.

It's much easier to beat someone when you know what their options are.

Seconded.

Also, Bayonetta always has an option, but not all options lead to death. Make sure to always know what percent you are at, and try to make an educated guess about the opponents rage. Try to remember what your opponent likes to do with his/her combos. Keep in mind what combos work at certain percents. For example, Twist-Fair and Twist-Twist usually only work below 50%, so try to DI expecting those at that percent, and then the long one at higher percents. SDI for twist is high level, not easy, don't listen to those people saying it is easy. ZeRo can SDI Shuttle Loop to live, but not Bayonetta's Twist. You can still DI during Time, so DI as if your life depends on it. Frame three Nairs might be able to come out during time... Need to look into it. Watch for whiffs. If the bayonetta whiffs, DJ Uair or Up B to seal her stock. Remember that it is pretty easy to mess up her rather frame tight portions. If you don't punish the whiff, remember that she will have 50+ frames of landing lag after a long combo. I am tired...

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Hmmm..... it isn't 50+ frames, it 43.

19 WT
20 ABK (> WT)
26 WT > ABK
30 ABK x2 (+ WT)
32 WT x2 (+ ABK)
43 WT x2 + ABK x2

 

[chipndip]

Not as much sarcasm, but some random conclusion that my competitive gaming experience is shallow for some reason.

Look man, I'ma try to put this out as plainly as I can:

For starters, even if she can be defined by your definition of a "bait and punish character" (which I honestly never heard of that term before from any dang game ever, so why on Earth would you make that up for this one character now), given the environment she's in, her payout per combo is blatantly high and getting that payout even on a beginner level is pretty simple. Sure, not 60%, cause that's exaggerated, but it's extremely noticeable in comparison to the rest of the roster. Sheik has combos, but all her hits do like 5% give or take 2% per move, so even if you're getting run around the stage on repeat, a good hit or two can get relatively close to the 3-5 hits she landed before-hand. Even with this design, Sheik is still strong because she's got good, safe, data...but at least her damage isn't stupidly high. Basically, where as Sheik is designed around repeatedly using low risk/low reward to eventually add up to something, Bayo has relatively low risk/extremely high reward and just cashes it all in as soon as she can...the better the Bayo player, the sooner.

So another thing people are telling me is that some of her damage is justified because her moves have bad frames, so just use a fast, safe move to beat her and start my own combos/pressure through those. But at the same time, since her counter will always be on the table, even fishing for hits with weaker moves is extremely dangerous because it confirms into very high damage punishes even off of countering jabs, tilts, dash attacks, quick, weak aerials, or whatever else someone resorts to when there's a counter threat looming. So how does someone stay solid on offense, trying to beat out her possible bad frames while dancing around her relatively large hit-boxes, while still being careful of pretty much the most dangerous counter in the game by a long shot?

So now we get to the point where I asked around and I was told "Make her have to deal with your shield" and "play passive", and I tried it, and it worked on the less initiated. Then they get smart and throw me out of my shield to open me up to more options and pressure. Sure, it doesn't KO until she does a few combos and racks up damage (which, let's be honest, isn't going to be a hard errand given Bayo's damage output which you've gleefully skirted around this whole conversation outside of 'it's her niche'), but now she's got pressure to possibly gain access to her other options. If I'm camping on one side of the stage, running speeds are overall pretty quick, and she can just use her brain to minimize damage and get in range to, once again, possibly throw me if I'm blocking.

So now we're HERE and I'm told "mix it up", but with what? The main game plan for fighting her is already passive play because Bayo's more than fine going into a faster pace match. Like, without playing yourself, if it was that simple, would "camp" be the main solution given to me the last time I posted here? Would "run the clock" be the solution that ZeRo would give to his viewers on the topic? It's not like I picked this game up a month ago and started raging out of nowhere, and it's not like I didn't come to the boards for advice before now.

Well, you say "Approach her differently", but that isn't even a fair critique. To put it simply, Bayo is overloaded. The difference between using that line for Bayo and using it for SF characters is that SF characters are designed to play into a very specific style, which usually can only get so much done in certain scenarios. Some people have bad anti-airs. Some people are slow. Some people have bad options in the corner. Some people just have no projectiles. Some people have bad combos. So on and so forth, so winning is done by either playing footsies and being careful not to let the opponent play into their strengths or running them down with your own strengths. In this game, on the other hand, Bayo has projectiles. Bayo has a lousy recovery move in Witch Twist, but makes up for it by being to use multiple special moves in the air per recovery attempt. Bayo is "fast enough" on the ground, but combine that with all her air mobility options and she can keep up with and/or outpace most of the cast when the match gets going. Bayo has long, strong combos. Bayo's limbs allow for her to out-space her opponents on some of her confirming attacks like Heel Slide/ABK/ABdiveK. Bayo has quicker options that are harder to punish but still confirm into combos with her d-tilt, u-tilt, and Witch Twist. Bayo can cast and recast multiple special moves in the air so she can still keep things moving and defend herself even after using them, similar to Sonic and Megaman. Bayo doesn't have many strong KO options, but with practice she can just 0 -> upper boundary KO you regardless. To top things off, Bayo's got her ridiculous counter that confirms into more combos and high damage punishes or just moves her to safety...and to top THAT off she can still get that secondary effect just by timing dodges right even without her counter. The only areas she has no answer for at all that some other character does are strong KO throws and throw combos. This chick is bloody overloaded, and most approach options you could convert to she has an answer for, otherwise the main strat against her wouldn't be "turtle up and pray".

So if you HONESTLY have answers beyond "git gud", like how to approach the neutral against her beyond throwing projectiles and hoping she can't run her way to you, or what to do against her when playing from behind, or how to deal with ABK stuffing my gimp attempts because that hit-box is obnoxious, or whatever else someone may have an issue with, me or not, you are more than open to give it a shot. Don't think I just close my ears and whine. I actually try the stuff people tell me, but I've done this before and I'm not about to be told "It's simple! Just ____", cause it isn't THAT easy otherwise this thread wouldn't exist.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Bait and Punish is a real term in fighting game.

https://m.reddit.com/r/CrazyHand/co...ng_bait_and_punish_characters/?ref=readnext_5

 

[chipndip]

Well, all the replies are getting pretty long so I gotta snip them as I go.

I mean, I'm trying to keep my mind open on this, but Lil Mac has a VERY OBVIOUS weakness from the start. He has quite literally 0 air game. This makes it so there's something to aim for. Also, his hit-boxes are huge as hell, they're just fast, so he can land the hit first if you both try for something at once, but you can still out-range him and he doesn't have much to counter that outside of "get closer and try again" or "counter attempt", which I've already said that any other counter in the game doesn't have the same psychological effect on a player as Bayo's does.

Using Lil Mac as an argument is relatively flawed because the entire game was new at the time + Lil Mac can't net as much gain as Bayo in most instances or deal with as many different types of situations as Bayo either. Bayo has a ton of elements from all different types of characters in this game mashed up into a singular sexy beast, and that's the reason she's throwing people for a loop if I had to give my opinion. I mean, I even listed all the different types of tools and benefits she has in her kit and I forgot she has a spike off of an aerial move and a spike off of a grounded move...and that she can cancel her ground slamming d-air...something Greninja had patched out of his own kit...but she can cancel it in mid-air. Like come on...how much does one kit need? This isn't a niche. She's just generally overloaded.

Bait and Punish is a real term in fighting game.

https://m.reddit.com/r/CrazyHand/co...ng_bait_and_punish_characters/?ref=readnext_5

To make sure we're being fair here:

Is there any example outside of Smash's community where this niche is known to be a thing?

 

[SoccerStar9001]

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Glossary_of_fighting_games

See "Baiting".
People common refer baiting as Bait and Punish.

 

[Shaya]

Sometimes a little bit of googling before hand could help

Bait and punish is... typical lingo in just about anything competitive. You bait and punish in Chess.
It's like... a reflection of intelligence and hence exists in everything humans do, and probably some other animal species.
A character that's focused around baiting isn't bizarre, but it's usually a human reflection of something.

Right now Bayo seems extreme, and she's also popular, giving a skewed perspective just like we saw with Mac.
Bayo undoubtedly has "more options", but Little Mac's hitboxes and abilities are stronger in his own niche. I think the reduction of Mac QQ has more to do with the reduction in popularity on For Glory than him actually becoming that much weaker after nerfs.

Bayo may have too many non-smash standard abilities that seem out of place with general balance. The 'onus' of being able to handle something being more on the receiver than the executor. "If something is difficult, then we're okay with it" is a common idea.
An example in Brawl is Falco's down throw chain grab; it leads into a guaranteed down air, which was unavoidable but if you didn't know how to SDI and tech, he could 0-death you with it every time very easily, the amount of effort required for an opponent to circumvent it was vastly more than the effort to execute it.
This is what made Brawl ultimately very unpopular and 'bred' a generation of players who are infused with what we could see as lame gameplay; we didn't mind it I suppose, but in hindsight, what the hell was wrong with us? haha.

Something like Bayo's jab, despite it being 9 frames, dealing 20% seems bizarre. The onus is on the receiver of dealing with it - for one the majority of the heavy damage comes from the rapid jab, which the link between the third hit and this isn't entirely guaranteed. Furthermore there is ability to SDI the first three hits and as it's a 9 frame start up feasibly a lot more time to react before the rapid jab (which is difficult/impossible to fall out of). This contrasts to Little Mac's 1 frame jab which at release also did 20%+ on average.
For various reasons, the design enforces this idea of "having to be good at dealing with her unique abilities" in contrast to most other characters having stock standard counter play or much less reward (but assuming you're good at dealing with the move, Bayo is getting a lot less out of it than the regular character would).

Witch Time is... hmm.
I suppose it's the contemplation of when a Bayo could do one. She can't do it out of her initial dash, and the chances of her using it at specific points in her game plan are pretty high. If she throws it out and it doesn't connect, it loses considerable use and the opponent can hence play more aggressively without as much risk.

Her Side-b is actually more so INSANELY fast, than tons of priority from my experience. At the very least the low angled one should lose (or trade) with most jabs. There's a certain distance where she'll be where the side-b will reach and witch time is not an issue. Understanding the difference is important.


Overall I think most of her stuff is silly enough to consider unreliably beatable online though; and the all-levels-of-play argument is a strong one for what we see in balance patches. Jab being frame 9 doesn't matter because one's ability to react and input things to avoid the main damage is severely less likely. Knowing that she cannot threaten with witch time in one moment but can threaten with side-b is essential to playing around her, but in lag chances are you will be unable to differentiate the different times these things are a threat.
But still, I believe her design is pretty silly and overloaded, and while not fair to look to ban her, who knows about the future.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

I mean, I'm trying to keep my mind open on this, but Lil Mac has a VERY OBVIOUS weakness from the start. He has quite literally 0 air game. This makes it so there's something to aim for. Also, his hit-boxes are huge as hell, they're just fast, so he can land the hit first if you both try for something at once, but you can still out-range him and he doesn't have much to counter that outside of "get closer and try again" or "counter attempt", which I've already said that any other counter in the game doesn't have the same psychological effect on a player as Bayo's does.

Using Lil Mac as an argument is relatively flawed because the entire game was new at the time + Lil Mac can't net as much gain as Bayo in most instances or deal with as many different types of situations as Bayo either. Bayo has a ton of elements from all different types of characters in this game mashed up into a singular sexy beast, and that's the reason she's throwing people for a loop if I had to give my opinion. I mean, I even listed all the different types of tools and benefits she has in her kit and I forgot she has a spike off of an aerial move and a spike off of a grounded move...and that she can cancel her ground slamming d-air...something Greninja had patched out of his own kit...but she can cancel it in mid-air. Like come on...how much does one kit need? This isn't a niche. She's just generally overloaded.

Little Mac got the KO punch, the source of all the salt and hate at the time. Seems like Witch Time takes its place.
Little Mac has average reach, but he was fast and packs a punch. He was the most insane character in the game at the time due to his popularity. I used him as an example to how Q_Q isn't how Little Mac turned into a laughing stock, it is adapting.

Bayonetta can't cancel her dAir, it just has a low duration and was increased in 1.1.5.
And lol, Bayonetta has a lot of elements, but so does pretty much everyone. If every fighter was one dimensional, the game would stale extremely early.

 

[chipndip]

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Glossary_of_fighting_games

See "Baiting".
People common refer baiting as Bait and Punish.

But can't you apply that to any character in any game though?

Like, that isn't really something you'd base a entire niche of a character around. Baiting is something anyone can do in any game so long as it's competitive period. Doesn't necessarily mean a character's niche revolves around that.

Little Mac got the KO punch, the source of all the salt and hate at the time. Seems like Witch Time takes its place.
Little Mac has average reach, but he was fast and packs a punch. He was the most insane character in the game at the time due to his popularity. I used him as an example to how Q_Q isn't how Little Mac turned into a laughing stock, it is adapting.

Bayonetta can't cancel her dAir, it just has a low duration and was increased in 1.1.5.
And lol, Bayonetta has a lot of elements, but so does pretty much everyone. If every fighter was one dimensional, the game would stale extremely early.

I meant to say Lil Mac DIDN'T have great reach. Typo on my part. And yea he had the KO punch, but knocking him off his feet removes it. Having one or two strong options isn't the problem, and neither is having a new type of option or a new strength that the community's not used to (well, that's PART of it). It's that Bayo has her strong options and her general field of strength...and then a myriad of other things that makes assessing those things a huge pain. I understand people can adapt.In all honesty, that's the first thing I look to do. Still, there's elements of this kit that are plain bonkers to have all in one, and I don't think it's wise to just side step that fact like it isn't there.

And sure, many characters have a good deal of elements to their kits, but they also lack in areas quite obviously. Even Sheik, who was thought to be the best character in this game before now, had some sort of obvious weakness (it was just overshadowed by how strong her strength in her speed was). In Bayo's case, she draws from nearly anything anyone has in their kit, but that leaves very little for her opponent to exploit her with. Projectiles, air mobility, counter option, dive kick, ground pound, combos, some quicker options, some farther reaching options, spikes...she has an option that's comparable to nearly any positive you can put in anyone else's kit save for throw-related strengths...and sweet spot moves like C. Falcon's knee or Zelda's air moves. Anything else though, and she has some sort of comparable answer, meaning she has a myriad of options to fall back on. At least, that's what I see from where I'm standing.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

But can't you apply that to any character in any game though?

Like, that isn't really something you'd base a entire niche of a character around. Baiting is something anyone can do in any game so long as it's competitive period. Doesn't necessarily mean a character's niche revolves around that.

https://m.reddit.com/r/SSBPM/comments/3keu9d/does_being_considered_a_bait_and_punish_character/
Also, read the comments.

Bait and punish characters tends to have a poor neutral, but is excellent at punishing foes.

 

[Metallinatus]

But can't you apply that to any character in any game though?

Like, that isn't really something you'd base a entire niche of a character around. Baiting is something anyone can do in any game so long as it's competitive period. Doesn't necessarily mean a character's niche revolves around that.

No, Ganondorf is a bait and punish and tech chase character. You can't rushdown or zone with him.... you must make the opponent make mistakes, and then punish him.

 

[chipndip]

https://m.reddit.com/r/SSBPM/comments/3keu9d/does_being_considered_a_bait_and_punish_character/
Also, read the comments.

Bait and punish characters tends to have a poor neutral, but is excellent at punishing foes.

I mean, I can't necessarily knock it since it's a term used in reference to a Smash game by the Smash community, but I'll still say that I can't blame anyone for not knowing of this beforehand. Most fighting game characters that come to my mind aren't necessarily designed to have a bad neutral game.

And even that Reddit forum made no mention of any game besides Smash...

I mean, don't get me wrong here: Baiting and punishing isn't new to me. However, the notion that a character's viability would be entirely defined by that concept seems...off. You don't need a character literally defined by that concept in order to utilize that concept, you know?

 

[Quantumpen]

I'm all for nerfing the character -- I've outlined many times why I think she has serious problems, but I do think talking about banning her at this point is ridiculous. She's not that much worse than Sheik and no one wanted to ban her. She's not unbeatable, but I do think if something isn't done the metagame will soon be centralized around Bayo and her counters the same way it was centralized around Sheik last patch... and that's bad. I'd like it if that didn't happen.

 

[chipndip]

One of these days I'm gonna get used to multi quoting and parsing quotes properly on this forum...

Well, thanks for this. I'ma probably stop posting on this topic for now and try to take these things and work on it a bit. Hopefully I get somewhere, but as a conversation would dictate, I'd still like to respond to this post like I would any other one.

It's not that baiting and punishing isn't a thing at all. It's just that I don't think baiting and punishing is a fighting game character arch-type. It's more of a game plan or strategy than it is a kit blueprint. Like, if I'm playing SF and I'm using Ryu, I'll throw light jabs at random in the middle of using fireballs. People may see the jab and react as if I was throwing a fireball. Then I can use crouching HP and anti-air them for damage, then cross-up medium kick for pressure. Baiting can pretty much be done just by playing into what an opponent wants to see, regardless of your character's kit, so I don't think there are characters that are designed primarily around that concept since it's more of a meta concept.

On the Mac topic...I honestly think that once people got used to the game and after a few patches went out, the combination of both toned down the Mac Attack everyone was feeling. He still had glaring weaknesses, and Smash never had characters in it that were able to outpace the entire roster in such a manner (even if it's only on the ground). His role in the franchise is brand new + it was introduced in a brand new iteration of the game. It died down after some time, but to be fair to these separate instances, Mac's case gives something clear to look at and say "That's the goal". Bayo's a nice view to look at, sure, but she offers no clear weaknesses to fight her with, and her game plan to fight YOU with is pretty flexible due to the amount of tools she has, which are a lot.

I'm definitely glad someone's finally acknowledging this psychological dilemma I've been talking about with her Witch Time...and that I'm not just losing it. Still, that point about looking for her dash to find a time where she simply can not use Witch Time is helpful. Sure, she could just Heel Slide instead and confirm me into a combo, but if I'm looking to her dash as a time where I can't be Witch Time'd, at least there's that.

Unfortunately, my main source of practice outside of occasional bouts with friends is online play, so I'm sort of screwed on that end. Still, I'll try to apply what I was told in this thread.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

On the Mac topic...I honestly think that once people got used to the game and after a few patches went out, the combination of both toned down the Mac Attack everyone was feeling. He still had glaring weaknesses, and Smash never had characters in it that were able to outpace the entire roster in such a manner (even if it's only on the ground). His role in the franchise is brand new + it was introduced in a brand new iteration of the game. It died down after some time, but to be fair to these separate instances, Mac's case gives something clear to look at and say "That's the goal". Bayo's a nice view to look at, sure, but she offers no clear weaknesses to fight her with, and her game plan to fight YOU with is pretty flexible due to the amount of tools she has, which are a lot.

Little Mac was barely nerfed, Jab 2/3 does 1% less, Nair SDI multiplier doubled, Side B range reduced. That is all the nerf he got.
We have given you many information on Bayonetta from bad framedata, below average mobility, special cause landing lag, Witch Time decays.

I'm definitely glad someone's finally acknowledging this psychological dilemma I've been talking about with her Witch Time...and that I'm not just losing it. Still, that point about looking for her dash to find a time where she simply can not use Witch Time is helpful. Sure, she could just Heel Slide instead and confirm me into a combo, but if I'm looking to her dash as a time where I can't be Witch Time'd, at least there's that.

Unfortunately, my main source of practice outside of occasional bouts with friends is online play, so I'm sort of screwed on that end. Still, I'll try to apply what I was told in this thread.

HS startup is frame 15...... it is slower than Mac's Fsmash........
It really sounds like you just lack practice. If that was the case, you shouldn't have jump in the nerf bandwagon.

 

[pikazz]

why is everyone complaining suddenly on Heel Slide? its so slow on start up and you can react to shield it unless you already done a move.
shielding the Heel Slide is the best option as its so unsafe on shield. you can even shieldgrab between the slide and the kick

 

[Greda]

These kinds of discussions always leave me confused. I hear people everywhere saying that it's too early to tell who's Top 1, but then people post things like these attempting to explain why Bayonetta should be banned as if she's the undisputed Top 1. So, what will it be?

 

[Metallinatus]

These kinds of discussions always leave me confused. I hear people everywhere saying that it's too early to tell who's Top 1, but then people post things like these attempting to explain why Bayonetta should be banned as if she's the undisputed Top 1. So, what will it be?

Let's ban Greninja.

 

[Champ Gold]

Her Dive Kick is the biggest tool that makes her dangerous because it leaves her safe but her normal side B is awful on shield

As of matter of fact, she's **** on shields and projectiles. The fact that Robin, Lucas, WFT, Samus and Bowser Jr can pressure her hard and zone her out makes it the game changer. Also bait out those Witch Times.

 

[WackySpinachAgate]

If anything nerf the booty. Its hard to fight a character with a fourth taunt as good as the booty pop.

 

[pikazz]

she has really no answer to shield except for Grab and Fthrow on Kill% but thats just it.
she cant really apply shield pressure and she does hate shield.

until she can effectly shield pressure the shield on a safe but a quick way, she cant be broken on a Brawl Metaknight Level.
she do love aggro as she is an bait-and-punish character which, ironically, all high tiers is pretty aggro type of play.
just wait and see, soon people will use Samus, ROB and Robin more and bring them up higher on tier list

 

[Jenna Zant]

she has really no answer to shield except for Grab and Fthrow on Kill% but thats just it.
she cant really apply shield pressure and she does hate shield.

until she can effectly shield pressure the shield on a safe but a quick way, she cant be broken on a Brawl Metaknight Level.
she do love aggro as she is an bait-and-punish character which, ironically, all high tiers is pretty aggro type of play.
just wait and see, soon people will use Samus, ROB and Robin more and bring them up higher on tier list

Yeah. It's definitely really annoying to see people compare her to Brawl MK.

 

[LEGOfan12]

The fact this is even being considered is silly.

 

[Theosmeo]

Couldn't they just patch it so Fair 1 HAS to move into Fair 2 and can't ABK? That would remove her 0 - to deaths but keep the rest of her character intact

 

[Greda]

Couldn't they just patch it so Fair 1 HAS to move into Fair 2 and can't ABK? That would remove her 0 - to deaths but keep the rest of her character intact

It wouldn't remove ALL her 0 to deaths and would just make the character worse to control imo

 

[Theosmeo]

It wouldn't remove ALL her 0 to deaths and would just make the character worse to control imo

How would it make her worse to control? Mario's jab combo isn't bad to control. It would effectively remove all her 0 to deaths as well because there's optimal DI to avoid those if she doesn't use Fair 1 here and there. They could even give it a damage buff to make her character focused on building damage with stylish combos and then killing with Bair, Fthrow, Dtilt > Uair, or witch time.

 

[Ghidorah14]

Couldn't they just patch it so Fair 1 HAS to move into Fair 2 and can't ABK? That would remove her 0 - to deaths but keep the rest of her character intact

Then players would just cancel fair2 into abk, instead of fair1.

 

[Jenna Zant]

Then players would just cancel fair2 into abk, instead of fair1.

You can airdodge out of fair2 to abk

 

[Greda]

How would it make her worse to control? Mario's jab combo isn't bad to control. It would effectively remove all her 0 to deaths as well because there's optimal DI to avoid those if she doesn't use Fair 1 here and there. They could even give it a damage buff to make her character focused on building damage with stylish combos and then killing with Bair, Fthrow, Dtilt > Uair, or witch time.

Fair is the only other actual reliable way to hit your opponent with ABK without Witch Twist.

And again, it doesn't remove all of her 0 to deaths. There are 0 to deaths that exist without Fair.

 

[Respect38]

Why was this thread even moved to this sub-forum? It would be fine if character discussion forums were really discussion about a character that a lot of people joined in on and discussed, but the fact that character discussion forums are more adopted [naturally] by the people that main the character leads to the discussion being inherently biased in pro-Bayo's favor. I understand the excuse to move it here, but wouldn't it have made for a less biased conversation had it been left in General Discussion? After all, it does deal with something critical to the entire community, not just to Bayonetta mains!

 

[Shaya]

From what I gather, it was started here, hence remained here.
It's a lot to do with trying to keep it sane.

I had a redirect in the competitive section to here for a day or two.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Her Dive Kick is the biggest tool that makes her dangerous because it leaves her safe

On shield, try spot dodging it, she would be forced to land with lag.

 

[Shuckle_SSB]

You can just crouch and wait for her to stop doing it. She'll need to stop firing eventually.

Exactly mate, its a good zoning tool.

 

[Respect38]

If that's the case; my bad. I would have bet good money that it had been originally submitted to another subforum, but I must be thinking of something else. [In fact, I seem to remember the "ban Bayo" winning the poll when I voted originally, which I wouldn't have thought would happen if it had been posted here first]

Even then, it's unfortunate that it was made here, because it made whatever use the poll could have been completely useless.

 

[ZaneHitsurugi]

If she's really so good, are most matches Bayonetta dittos?
And why doesn't Zero main her?