Banning Bayonetta in Tournaments

[SoccerStar9001]

Okay, seriously, you seem to always nitpick on everyone else, but you never further the discussion yourself(ask questions, provide insight....etc)

I gave you my opinion. If you think I am nitpicking, then sorry. Accept my apology.
I replied to Dr Megaman because he replied to me and I had a response. I mean no offense.

The general opinion is that Bayo might not favorable matchups (thought not necessarily losing) against:
Sonic, Sheik, Mario, Diddy, Rosalina, Pikachu, Toon Link.

I am interested in the Mario part. I believe the MU is pretty even or in Bayonetta's favor. Mind if you elaborate please?
Also, I heard ROB can zone her well.

 

[Sha-Shulk]

I am interested in the Mario part. I believe the MU is pretty even or in Bayonetta's favor. Mind if you elaborate please?
Also, I heard ROB can zone her well.

As a Mario main myself, I can provide some insight to the MU:

All of Mario's ground attacks, sans smashes, come out faster than Bayonetta's jab. (don't know when her tilts come out but i'm sure Mario's are faster). This gives Mario considerable frame-data advantage, and combined with his speed, can create problems for Bayonetta (in general). Mario's nair can beat out Bayo's smashes, and I believe Mario can crouch to avoid her n-special.

The real problem for Mario, in any MU honestly, is when the opponent either outranges or disjoints Mario, or both. I think (not certain) that Bayo has both (disjoints in the Bullet Climax, range in all other attacks). Mario overcomes this with an overwhelming, yet safe (when used well) neutral. Bayonetta, as others have stated before, has a poor neutral. Where Bayonetta can use this against him is with her Bat Within resetting the neutral and reducing Mario's overall DPS considerably. Bayonetta can escape his easy-bake combos, his advanced combos, and his 50-50 dthrow fair setup. (of course, if Mario can read this and punish, only time will tell.)

Bayonetta is no terror for Mario like Cloud is, imo, and furthermore i think that Mario may be what he is best, a safe pick against the character.

 

[ぱみゅ]

All of that, plus:
-Bayonetta struggles against grabs, and Mario's is amazing: range, speed, safety, burst range and reward.
-While Mario is very susceptible to Witch Time, he is nimble and fast enough to bait it, and strong enough to punish it hard.
-I didn't say it was negative for Bae, it just is not favorable for her. Being even sounds about right for me.


As for ROB, while his projectile game is amazing and keeps her out easily, he WILL eat tons of damage once he's hit, and not only when it comes to combos, raw juggling hurts him a lot.
However, I am not entirely sure of how this matchup is, I watched Ally's ROB randomly popping out of Tyroy's combos and I haven't been able to lab it out, so idk

 

[Funbot28]

Since we are on the topic of matchups, here is my personal opinion on a spread:

Spoiler

I can explain if you would like, but I find it pretty self-explanatory.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Jigglypuff is not a good Bayonetta counter pick, lol.
Sure she can rest her during a combo. But she can't do much else. She have a bad grab, she can't edgeguard Bayonetta due to low range, she can't rely on shield as much as other characters, her aerial gets beaten by Bayonetta's, she is really light.

I believe zoners like Rosa should move down in the list because Bayonetta struggles to approach them.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

Looks like SoccerStar and I finally agree on something...Jiggs v Bayo is no where near favorable for Jiggs. So much of Jigglypuff's game relies on gimping and carrying characters off stage or catching them while they recover. Not to mention Jiggs will die from a good bair at like 80. The fact that she can rest you out of your combo is just a minor MU detail to note, just don't WT2 and you won't get rested.

Also was wondering what makes the Falcon MU 50:50?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

The super heavyweights all have 80-20/75-25 MUs vs Bayo because of their large frames.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Also was wondering what makes the Falcon MU 50:50?

I guess Falcon got:
An excellent grab.
Some of the best punishes in the game.
A superb edgeguarding game.
An outstanding neutral, approach and combo game.
Multiple powerful KO options.

The super heavyweights all have 80-20/75-25 MUs vs Bayo because of their large frames.

Crash has 100-0 MUs against everyone. So OP, please ban.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

I guess Falcon got:
An excellent grab.
Some of the best punishes in the game.
A superb edgeguarding game.
An outstanding neutral, approach and combo game.
Multiple powerful KO options.

Falcon with the MU knowledge should take out Bayonetta easily.

As an ex Falcon main I'm having trouble seeing it. Grab makes sense, can't argue with that. I really don't think his punish game as people make it out to be (one of the reasons I dropped him as a main). His punishes more or less depend on his opponents making a mistake or the wrong decision, there's not a lot Falcon is in control of. His edge-guarding is good, but I have no idea how you expect anyone without a disjoint or counter to edgeguard Bayo, let alone Falcon. His neutral is above average, but I wouldn't call it outstanding. All he's really got is bair and uair, sometimes nair, and tomahawks. He has like no range so he's always running the risk of getting hit by something like Witch Twist OoS. And as far as KO options go, like his punish game, they rely on the opponent making a mistake or Falcon getting a read. If you play safe against Falcon there isn't much he can do to take your stock. His only confirm is off of falling uair to knee which is extremely frame tight and DI dependent so Bat Within is gonna help Bayo out a lot the few times a Falcon manages to hit that. And his kill throw doesn't really do anything until like 150%.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

I don't play Falcon much, prefer Ganon myself. So these might not be too accurate.

His punishes more or less depend on his opponents making a mistake or the wrong decision, there's not a lot Falcon is in control of.

That's the idea of a bait and punish character.
Typically, bait and punish characters doesn't have a solid game plan, they rely on their opponents' mistakes to win.
Falcon is an aggressive bait and punish where Bayonetta is a more patient bait and punish character.
Falcon can easily punished Bayonetta's dodges due to his speed and grab. Most of Bayonetta's options are unsafe against Falcon.

His edge-guarding is good, but I have no idea how you expect anyone without a disjoint or counter to edgeguard Bayo, let alone Falcon.

It is hard to edgeguard her no doubt, but it is completely possible to do so.
Witch Twist has surprisingly low horizontal range and ABK has a small window to punish.
I saw a Utilt spike before.
Edgeguarding Bayonetta is still kinda hard, so practice it and mix it up.

His neutral is above average, but I wouldn't call it outstanding. All he's really got is bair and uair, sometimes nair, and tomahawks.

He got great speed and a great grab range. Both of which Bayonetta lacks.
His neutral against Bayonetta is definitely great.

He has like no range so he's always running the risk of getting hit by something like Witch Twist OoS.

Range didn't hold Mario back, like Mario, he possess a fast grab and good options against shields.

And as far as KO options go, like his punish game, they rely on the opponent making a mistake or Falcon getting a read.

Remember Bayonetta's special landing lag? That is a great moments to execute his KO, just don't be predictable.
As hard as it is to land his KO moves, they also hit extremely hard too.

If you play safe against Falcon there isn't much he can do to take your stock.

It is significantly harder to play safe against a Falcon compared to Bayonetta. Bayonetta tends to have multiple unsafe moves and has the special lags.
Playing safe is always a bait and punish character's biggest weakness. But that's is the MU for ya.

And his kill throw doesn't really do anything until like 150%.

So does Bayonetta's, I think Bayonetta's kill throw is weaker.

I think with equal experience against each other, the MU is pretty even.

 

[teluoborg]

As for the Falcon Bayo matchup my small experience on the subject tells me that Dthrow>knee and Uair>knee play an essential role because they can end stocks at early percents and allow Falcon to kill before getting killed. Other than his good grab range and up B to punish air witch time he's one of the characters that can't do anything against Bayo's juggles and combos.

That's an awesome way to look at it and I totally see what you're getting at. The problem is whether it's making the reward lower or the risk higher, you have to counter-pick her. Both of your statements begin with "[use/have] a character..." I just think it's silly that the Bayo MU is evolving to a point where counterpicking is the answer. And yeah, that was the answer to Sheik and Diddy (prepatch) and that's why I agree with the nerfs that befell them. Before the patches they kinda shut down like 80% of the cast, and still had advantage over the other 20% (made up stats, but you get the idea). Bayo is similar, maybe not as severe, but similar.

With that said, I'm just as sick of this "wait for the patch" mentality as you are, which is one of the reasons why I've been so actively engaged in this topic, because I don't think that's the mentality we should have. I've been looking at this issue as it is right now and as if it isn't going to change. But I also don't think counter-picking should be the primary answer to Bayonetta.

Counter picking isn't the primary answer.
Learning to DI the combos and to stop getting cheesed by unsafe combo starter is the primary answer.
Contrarily to Sheik or Rosa there isn't a character that Bayo invalidates by simply existing.
Of course playing a character that has more options in the matchup is a plus but that's something that has been true for all characters since the game is out isn't it ? Or are you telling me that Bayo is the only character that makes people switch characters ? We both know this isn't true.

Having an advantage over a good part of the cast is the definition of a top tier. Bayonetta is top tier, that's all there is to it.

 

[Sha-Shulk]

Why is it thought that Mewtwo has an even matchup? He has a large frame AND he's a lightweight. Is it his newfound speed (thank you 1.1.5., now can we FINALLY GET ****ing FRAME BUFFS FOR SHULK IN 1.1.6.!!??), or some kind of toolkit advantage?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

idk if I could agree with Zard going 8:2 or 7:3 with Bayo at all. Any heavy with a kill confirm in some shape or form is going to do better than the others since they have a way around Witch Time.

They are super combo fodder, that is not going to change which might be the aspect people hate with it in those match-ups. I also need to play against better Bayo's to nail that down and see how bad it is.

 

[Sha-Shulk]

Personally, although i hate to admit, Shulk has a difficult time against Bayo. ANY character that can combo efficiently, is, in my opinion, automatically has a HUGE advantage against Shulk's favor. Also, one of Bayo's weakness is mitigated, or entirely null, because Shulk has overall suckier frame data. Shulk's MArts do less than they should:

Jump: Cool, so now i take even more damage? Great! Just save this one for recovery.

Speed: Well, this one is ALWAYS safe to shift into. No missed gains or painful loss here

Shield: Why the **** would you use this against Bayo?

Buster: This functions just like it does in ANY MU. Either shift the game in your favor, or literally pay the price.

Smash: MAYBE, just maybe this might have game-changing uses with the whole "negated DI, universal weight of 100" and other janky Bayo stuff being null because of the unique KB modifier that Smash has. Someone, can't remember where, posted about how Smash doesn't change Shulk's weight, but rather some other value (KB resistance or something) that bypasses the universal approach with Bayo's combos, thus making her combos, in some cases, near-impossible to execute. Can someone lab this for a confirm?

 

[WackySpinachAgate]

I feel that it's too early to make a unanimous decision on this topic. We don't have enough results to talk about because she's only been out for a little under three months. If we were to make a final decision " assuming there are no more patches" than I feel that the beginning of August would be the best time. That gives plenty of months and Majors to let Bayonetta show everyone what she's got. Personally the only issue I have with the character is her witch twist. Other than that I'm not really on either side of the argument.

 

[Dr.Megaman]

Not to me, we don't have enough results, and the current results is underwhelming compared the pre patch Sheik/Diddy.


And your proof.......? Not that I am trying to ban him.
Bayonetta has her weaknesses and she does have a lot of bad MU. But I guess my biggest point is the lack of results.

An aerial, projectiles and jabs stop the spin dash. Samus, Fox, Captain Falcon, Pits, Meta knight, Mario, Falco, Ryu, Shiek, Pikachu, DHD, MM, Diddy, Ness, Links, and Mac. Proof comes from smashboards, 6WX, and background knowledge.

http://smashboards.com/threads/sonic-matchup-discussion-general.388694/

 

[Clure]

Honestly, considering how much effort the devs seem to be putting into maintaining balance, I seriously doubt they'll let all of this Bayo hate go unnoticed. A patch or at least some form of tweaking to make a few matchups more favorable will show up sooner or later, I think!

As someone who plays Shulk a lot, I wanted to ask; does anyone have advice on Bayo X Shulk MUs? Because I have been getting my butt handed to me by that darn witch. I don't know if this has already been discussed, though. It's nice to see some fairly polite discussion about Bayo MUs, a lot of the time people get really angry about this stuff.

I think it's good to adapt and learn the match ups for now, and give Nintendo time to look into patches for possible balance; I have a lot of personal trouble with Bayo but I think that might just be that I suck, haha.

 

[Sha-Shulk]

Honestly, considering how much effort the devs seem to be putting into maintaining balance, I seriously doubt they'll let all of this Bayo hate go unnoticed. A patch or at least some form of tweaking to make a few matchups more favorable will show up sooner or later, I think!

As someone who plays Shulk a lot, I wanted to ask; does anyone have advice on Bayo X Shulk MUs? Because I have been getting my butt handed to me by that darn witch. I don't know if this has already been discussed, though. It's nice to see some fairly polite discussion about Bayo MUs, a lot of the time people get really angry about this stuff.

I think it's good to adapt and learn the match ups for now, and give Nintendo time to look into patches for possible balance; I have a lot of personal trouble with Bayo but I think that might just be that I suck, haha.

Stay grounded in your approach. Abuse pivots in Speed. Utilt and dtilt are good.

EDIT: Did this thread die?

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

Stay grounded in your approach. Abuse pivots in Speed. Utilt and dtilt are good.

EDIT: Did this thread die?

Seems so. I came back because I was wondering why I didn't get any notifications.

 

[Sha-Shulk]

Seems so. I came back because I was wondering why I didn't get any notifications.

So..... no ban on Bayonetta yet, and hope for a patch but still discuss strategies against her?

 

[Dr.Megaman]

So..... no ban on Bayonetta yet, and hope for a patch but still discuss strategies against her?

If I was you, personally I'd use Corrin for the Bayo Matchup since Corrin's frame data is amazing

 

[Nidtendofreak]

If I was you, personally I'd use Corrin for the Bayo Matchup since Corrin's frame data is amazing

But Corrin gets almost nothing for their throws. And given how Bayonetta works you're going to want to rely on throws a lot.

I'd be thinking more Mario. Good frame data, good mobility, FLUDD for any bad recovery angles on Bayo's side, good work out of throws at least early on, Usmash probably one of the better options in the game for trying to KO Bayo, smaller target against bullets.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Does anyone have any data on tournament attendance with or without Bayo?

Also is there any sort of data on how often she is seen in tournaments, who she won/lost against, the characters she fought, etc.?

If we had this kind of data it would be HUGE for figuring out matchups (plus if you know who played who with what character you could potentially look it up on YouTube). No offense, but we as the Smash 4 community have been largely been guided on our emotions on how we feel about things. Some hard data makes determining if something belongs in OU in Smogon simple, but during Gen 3 we just guessed what was OU. Solid data would really help looking at this issue.

 

[blackghost]

i can say the ryu fight is absolutely miserable for bayo. there are zero good ptions in approach and batwithin wont save you when ryu huts you.
focus shuts every option down.
ryu oesnt even care about witch time much because on the gorund he can cancel a 3 frame move into an invincible uppercut.
anyone else have experience in the fight?

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

Okay, we need to revive this thread again. We aren't discussing matchups, we are talking about banning Bayonetta at tournaments. Let's look at the poll. The majority don't want her banned, approx. 1/3 want the meta game to develop and then decide, and a very small amount want her banned. I believe what we can take from this poll is that she should not be banned, but if the meta game develops "Backwards" to a point where she becomes at least IC Brawl level, then the idea of banning her can be brought up again.

 

[Sha-Shulk]

Okay, we need to revive this thread again. We aren't discussing matchups, we are talking about banning Bayonetta at tournaments. Let's look at the poll. The majority don't want her banned, approx. 1/3 want the meta game to develop and then decide, and a very small amount want her banned. I believe what we can take from this poll is that she should not be banned, but if the meta game develops "Backwards" to a point where she becomes at least IC Brawl level, then the idea of banning her can be brought up again.

I agree

 

[Zareidriel]

To be completely honest, my ultimate solution is "wait and hope for a patch".

If it takes a while/patches are officially cancelled, I think the ban can be seriously considered then. She might dominate tournaments and suck people's fun until then, which sucks. But I think with all the public outcry against her Nintendo is obviously going to continue nerfing her, assuming patches aren't over already.

IMHO, they're going to nerf her a little at a time, a few characteristics each patch, until she's around where they want. The patches have been pretty reasonable and deliberate lately; I think the patching crew has really gotten better at doing their job over the life of the game.

 

[Respect38]

"The majority doesn't want her banned" simply isn't a conclusion you can support from this poll, because there's no way of knowing, from the people who voted in March and early April, who has changed their mind on the issue; not to mention that 30% of the votes were on the middle-ground. How do we know that many of those people haven't changed their mind due to being unimpressed with the meta development and patches thus far? [of which there have been none in the month and a half since the poll started]

Oh, and that's not to mention that this thread was in the Bayonetta subforum for most of its history, and so the sample of voters we have thus far isn't representative of the community as a whole.

This would all be fixed if only we could reset the poll...

 

[Charoite]

The problem isn't that is that the first argument for her ban that she was too strong, for the other's character to handle, in this case you need to prove this theory with results at top level, this is why we wanted more time to determinate if these thoughts were correct, but looking at the results for the latest tournaments in the US, japan and europe, bayo results weren't different to the others top tiers or high tiers, if this trend goes then the argument that she is too good to handle would hold less water, of course this can chance, but results are very important if a characters is considered banworthy.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Okay, we need to revive this thread again. We aren't discussing matchups, we are talking about banning Bayonetta at tournaments. Let's look at the poll. The majority don't want her banned, approx. 1/3 want the meta game to develop and then decide, and a very small amount want her banned. I believe what we can take from this poll is that she should not be banned, but if the meta game develops "Backwards" to a point where she becomes at least IC Brawl level, then the idea of banning her can be brought up again.

Focusing only on the topic of whether to ban Bayonetta or not.
My opinions remains to be no. Because...
1. She is not unbeatable, coupled with having some notable bad MU. People need to adapt to her so we can accurately analyze her strength and weaknesses.
2. Her results isn't as overwhelming as Sheik and Diddy. We should not get paranoid about Bayonetta taking over the meta just yet.
3. She is only three months old. Whether she is overrated or just as OP as people claimed has yet to really surface.

PS. I wouldn't use a poll's result as my argument, poll are only voted by volunteers. As Respect said, the voters aren't a good representative for the whole community. But contrary to Respect, this wouldn't be fixed even if we reset the poll.

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

Focusing only on the topic of whether to ban Bayonetta or not.
My opinions remains to be no. Because...
1. She is not unbeatable, coupled with having some notable bad MU. People need to adapt to her so we can accurately analyze her strength and weaknesses.
2. Her results isn't as overwhelming as Sheik and Diddy. We should not get paranoid about Bayonetta taking over the meta just yet.
3. She is only three months old. Whether she is overrated or just as OP as people claimed has yet to really surface.

PS. I wouldn't use a poll's result as my argument, poll are only voted by volunteers. As Respect said, the voters aren't a good representative for the whole community. But contrary to Respect, this wouldn't be fixed even if we reset the poll.

1. I can confirm this. I am a Toon Link main and he can take care of Bayonetta really well. The bombs coupled with her light weight can lead to some damaging and easy setups. Amazingly, Hero's Bow clanks with Side B, stopping it literally by pressing one button. Bayonetta often gets caught in Spin Attack as well. Basically, I would either pick Toon Link or Samus (One of my secondaries) against Bayonetta.

2. Yeah. Guess what Diddy had to do to kill? Literally Down Throw to Up air. That's it. You know all that Shiek had to do? F-Tilt X5 to Fair X4 to Down B. Sure, Shiek was a little harder, but still easy. Bayonetta has to try get a Side B in (Unsafe on shield), then read the opponents DI, Up B read the opponents DI again, and Side B in the direction her opponent is in, Read Di again, Side B there AND THEN finish with Up-B. She is way less worse than Shiek and Diddy.

3. People called Corrin and Cloud OP, and then they died down. I'm sure the same will happen to Bayonetta.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

1. I can confirm this. I am a Toon Link main and he can take care of Bayonetta really well. The bombs coupled with her light weight can lead to some damaging and easy setups. Amazingly, Hero's Bow clanks with Side B, stopping it literally by pressing one button. Bayonetta often gets caught in Spin Attack as well. Basically, I would either pick Toon Link or Samus (One of my secondaries) against Bayonetta.

2. Yeah. Guess what Diddy had to do to kill? Literally Down Throw to Up air. That's it. You know all that Shiek had to do? F-Tilt X5 to Fair X4 to Down B. Sure, Shiek was a little harder, but still easy. Bayonetta has to try get a Side B in (Unsafe on shield), then read the opponents DI, Up B read the opponents DI again, and Side B in the direction her opponent is in, Read Di again, Side B there AND THEN finish with Up-B. She is way less worse than Shiek and Diddy.

3. People called Corrin and Cloud OP, and then they died down. I'm sure the same will happen to Bayonetta.

To be fair, Bayonetta can start her combos from a lot of different things, not just grounded side special.

 

[blackghost]

To be fair, Bayonetta can start her combos from a lot of different things, not just grounded side special.

having combos isnt what most reasonably people complain about its getting 0 to deathed. and while uncommon its only ossibly from a dabk or witch twidt.
she doesnt really start combos form many moves. she starts with like three maybe 4 which is less than a lot of other characters.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

having combos isnt what most reasonably people complain about its getting 0 to deathed. and while uncommon its only ossibly from a dabk or witch twidt.
she doesnt really start combos form many moves. she starts with like three maybe 4 which is less than a lot of other characters.

As long as she pops the target high enough before starting her aerial hits, she can get early kills from a lot of different combo starters. She can also try to sprinkle in liberal amounts of fair 1 to get that extra bit of height, although I believe that makes it easier for the opponent to DI out. Sample combo that I've personally performed before: dtilt > full hop fair 1 > Twist > double jump fair 1 > ABK > reverse dABK > fair 1 > Twist 2 > death. Depending on the character, it turns into a full combo between 30-50% and gets them high enough for death unless you're slow on the inputs and fall too far, in which case you can tack on a fair 1 2 3 or uair at the end.

Regardless, the following moves all function as good combo starters for her, 0-death or no:

utilt
dtilt
fair 1
uair
side special (all variants)
up special

In addition, although I don't think they get true followups, she can use ftilt 3, dash attack, uthrow, and dthrow to put the opponent in really bad positions and threaten a combo if they don't react properly.

All of this ignores Witch Time as well, which turns literally every one of her moves into a combo starter because time dilation.

EDIT: Changing the subject, and hopefully sparking a bit of interesting discussion, how would one nerf Bayonetta without gutting her as a character?

 

[Deleted member 269706]

I think the most appropriate way to nerf Bayo is to take away some of her killing power, and increase her landing lag as well as take away her "Climax Cancel". Her smash attacks are great moves, pretty powerful as is, but she's the one character who can consistently hit a full charge smash attack mainly because of Witch Time. I think that because of this her smash attacks should be nerfed, not a lot, but a significant amount. I also think that her aerials need more landing lag, or at least when she uses the bullet arts. If she uses an aerial in a combo, the lag from the aerial should be stacked onto the overall landing lag. I think that these changes would increase the risks associated with the charater while maintaining her highly rewarding playstyle.

 

[Nekoo]

Bayonetta don't need any Lag added.

Don't want her to be ''Yo mama is so fat. She can't even spotdodge Ganondorf Warlock Punch." The character. She already have decent amout of Ending lag.

What she need are hitbox fixes.SDI,DI multiplier fix. Witch Time nerf and overall Less. AND A LOT LESS kgb on her moves.

 

[FallenHero]

Her **** kick should also probably be nerfed so that she doesn't bounce off shields. Her SDI and Di multipliers definitely need a nerf.

 

[WinterShorts]

Sure, Bayonetta is high tier and very different to fight (in a sense, comparable to Little Mac), but I'll easily believe people like Esam when he says that Bayonetta has a terrible neutral game, not that many options to kill besides getting off witch time or her combo starters, and having a very punishable combo starter at that. I'm at the borderline between saying Bayo shouldn't be banned, and saying that we need more results. Also remember that this has only been 3 months since her release / as of the timing of this post.

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

Sure, Bayonetta is high tier and very different to fight (in a sense, comparable to Little Mac), but I'll easily believe people like Esam when he says that Bayonetta has a terrible neutral game, not that many options to kill besides getting off witch time or her combo starters, and having a very punishable combo starter at that. I'm at the borderline between saying Bayo shouldn't be banned, and saying that we need more results. Also remember that this has only been 3 months since her release / as of the timing of this post.[/QUOTE

I agree with everything you said except for one. You just said Little Mac is hard to fight. All you have to do is either combat him in the air, or camp and throw him off the stage.

 

[WinterShorts]

I could've worded that better. I meant to say Little Mac was very different to fight, having superarmor on his smashes and barely having an air game, not the high tier part. Mac is no where near the top.