Banning Bayonetta in Tournaments

[Zoramine Fae]

I am leaning towards banning Bayo due to her sheer toxicity, but she definitely is beatable. Just, she forces you to do things in a way that no other character can.

Let's compare her to Pre-patch Diddy and pre-patch Sheik.


Diddy was complete cancer, with bananas setting up into KOs at 100% or earlier of Up Throw or Down Throw into Up Air, three smashes that could KO, Back Air, mixups, good-distanced recovery that could be intercepted, Side B that could meteor and assist recovery, and a neutral special in a projectile that wasn't a Banana. He was definitely annoying, and could very well be one of the most broken incarnations of a character outside of Brawl Meta Knight. However, if you played really campy or managed to grab his banana, you could turn the tables on him. Back then, there were also several other characters that weren't nerfed yet that were pretty powerful, so you could use other characters as a sort of counterplay of sorts. You could also give tons of pressure against Diddy and force him into making one unsafe decision then make him eat a punsih in return. People could pick Diddy up and start Hoo-Hah-ing opponents to their dooms in tournaments, but he still required skill to read DI, predict where opponents would move around, and to even get the grab in the first place and deal with pressure. Forgive me on this since I wasn't around during those days, only heard about it.


Pre-patch Sheik was immensely good, with amazing spacing, combos, damage output, a 50/50 kill confirm against airdodge, jump away, and doing nothing. She had (and possibly still has) the best projectile in the game, Needles, a Down Speical used for recovery and killing, an Up Special for killing, recovery, and had invincibility and was a teleport, Up, Down, and Forward Tilts for comboing, Jab into Grab for a confirmed setup into her 50/50. Up Smash could KO on the sweetspot, but Forward/Down Smash weren't exactly the moves you'd expect to see every day. Up Air, Forward Air, Back Air could kill, and Down Air was a meteor smash. She was most definitely beatable, and even the best player in the world, ZeRo, was contested several times, lost a few games, and many players that also mained Sheik would drop games or sets to players using lower tiered characters. Less of an extent than Diddy Kong in terms of sheer broken abilities, but was a very powerful cast member. She could be beaten by patient, aggressive, or any type of play in general; It didn't matter how you played since you could always do some method of winning via your own killing methods since she had a hard time killing without a grab setup then a read on the 50/50 which you may have been able to DI up and away from, low weight, got comboed very easily, and was a very high skill character with moderately low reward. People didn't just pick her up and start winning tournaments easily.


Now we look at Bayonetta, in comparison.


Bayonetta is a very high reward, low risk character that relies on 0-deathing opponents within seconds at any percent, relying on players having good muscle memory and reading DI as well as airdodges to bring opponents to the top or side blastzones before KOing them easily. She has Back Air, Up Smash, Forward Smash, Forward Throw at higher percents, Down Air, and Up Air (in a combo) as finishing moves, as well as having Forward Tilt with an incredible hitbox, Jab being her fastest option and a mixup into Grab, Forward Air with a chance to KO at the sides if at ledge or closer to the blastzone and linking 1-2 into another 1-2, and a meteor in the sweetspot of Down Air as well as Down Smash. All 3 of her Smash Attacks are extremely powerful and have massive range, a ton of disjointed hitboxes, and a three-part recovery that improves with a double jump, is extremely hard to intercept, and her recovery moves set up into her zero-to-deaths. She has very little problem killing with an almost safe Back Air that can KO, Heel Slide being difficult to intercept due to mixups with the second kick of Heel Slide or not having it, being forced to shield, and making you generally have to play in ways that are incredibly boring and stressful. You can't play aggressive against her at the fear of Witch Time, Bat Within being amazing on rolls and spotdodges as well as an Airdodge, ways to 0-death off one read no matter the percent (when labbing for Bayo vs Little Mac I found she has at least 20 different variations past 60% that work, and three ways at 0%). She also has an amazing recovery intercepter in her Neutral Special, every move in her arsenal being good, and a general lack of real problems barring SOME problems getting past shield - which even then aren't too much. People also have begun to pick up Bayonetta and win tournaments with her quite quickly, but with some of these being already respected players some are just randoms that shouldn't be able to do a thing. Even pre-patch Sheik and Diddy weren't that problematic.


If you actually read through that, congrats. Bayonetta's really toxic due to her gameplan forcing people to play incredibly boring and stressful, which can cause some players to snap (I myself snap several times against Bayonettas due to how dumb she can be, alongside several friends over the internet). She needs more nerfs than what she got, since while she was made to be an amazing fighter, she was built too powerful and is too much of a threat with too much reward for too little risk. If she was high risk very high reward I'd love the character, but her current design is flawed in its strength. All I hope for is another balance patch.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I am leaning towards banning Bayo due to her sheer toxicity, but she definitely is beatable. Just, she forces you to do things in a way that no other character can.

Let's compare her to Pre-patch Diddy and pre-patch Sheik.


Diddy was complete cancer, with bananas setting up into KOs at 100% or earlier of Up Throw or Down Throw into Up Air, three smashes that could KO, Back Air, mixups, good-distanced recovery that could be intercepted, Side B that could meteor and assist recovery, and a neutral special in a projectile that wasn't a Banana. He was definitely annoying, and could very well be one of the most broken incarnations of a character outside of Brawl Meta Knight. However, if you played really campy or managed to grab his banana, you could turn the tables on him. Back then, there were also several other characters that weren't nerfed yet that were pretty powerful, so you could use other characters as a sort of counterplay of sorts. You could also give tons of pressure against Diddy and force him into making one unsafe decision then make him eat a punsih in return. People could pick Diddy up and start Hoo-Hah-ing opponents to their dooms in tournaments, but he still required skill to read DI, predict where opponents would move around, and to even get the grab in the first place and deal with pressure. Forgive me on this since I wasn't around during those days, only heard about it.

Diddy couldn't be countered, he was far and away the best character with excellent OOS options (banana, Fair, Uair, Bair, amazing shield, etc...), kill confirms (Uthrow Uair was free), and a amazing recovery. He had everything. Literally everything.

Pre-patch Sheik was immensely good, with amazing spacing, combos, damage output, a 50/50 kill confirm against airdodge, jump away, and doing nothing. She had (and possibly still has) the best projectile in the game, Needles, a Down Speical used for recovery and killing, an Up Special for killing, recovery, and had invincibility and was a teleport, Up, Down, and Forward Tilts for comboing, Jab into Grab for a confirmed setup into her 50/50. Up Smash could KO on the sweetspot, but Forward/Down Smash weren't exactly the moves you'd expect to see every day. Up Air, Forward Air, Back Air could kill, and Down Air was a meteor smash. She was most definitely beatable, and even the best player in the world, ZeRo, was contested several times, lost a few games, and many players that also mained Sheik would drop games or sets to players using lower tiered characters. Less of an extent than Diddy Kong in terms of sheer broken abilities, but was a very powerful cast member. She could be beaten by patient, aggressive, or any type of play in general; It didn't matter how you played since you could always do some method of winning via your own killing methods since she had a hard time killing without a grab setup then a read on the 50/50 which you may have been able to DI up and away from, low weight, got comboed very easily, and was a very high skill character with moderately low reward. People didn't just pick her up and start winning tournaments easily.

Sheik's 50/50 eliminated her weakness of killing, she could outzone many designated campers, her Fair was ridiculous versatile, amazing OOS options, just wow. Again, everything.

Now we look at Bayonetta, in comparison.


Bayonetta is a very high reward, low risk character that relies on 0-deathing opponents within seconds at any percent, relying on players having good muscle memory and reading DI as well as airdodges to bring opponents to the top or side blastzones before KOing them easily. She has Back Air, Up Smash, Forward Smash, Forward Throw at higher percents, Down Air, and Up Air (in a combo) as finishing moves, as well as having Forward Tilt with an incredible hitbox, Jab being her fastest option and a mixup into Grab, Forward Air with a chance to KO at the sides if at ledge or closer to the blastzone and linking 1-2 into another 1-2, and a meteor in the sweetspot of Down Air as well as Down Smash. All 3 of her Smash Attacks are extremely powerful and have massive range, a ton of disjointed hitboxes, and a three-part recovery that improves with a double jump, is extremely hard to intercept, and her recovery moves set up into her zero-to-deaths. She has very little problem killing with an almost safe Back Air that can KO, Heel Slide being difficult to intercept due to mixups with the second kick of Heel Slide or not having it, being forced to shield, and making you generally have to play in ways that are incredibly boring and stressful. You can't play aggressive against her at the fear of Witch Time, Bat Within being amazing on rolls and spotdodges as well as an Airdodge, ways to 0-death off one read no matter the percent (when labbing for Bayo vs Little Mac I found she has at least 20 different variations past 60% that work, and three ways at 0%). She also has an amazing recovery intercepter in her Neutral Special, every move in her arsenal being good, and a general lack of real problems barring SOME problems getting past shield - which even then aren't too much. People also have begun to pick up Bayonetta and win tournaments with her quite quickly, but with some of these being already respected players some are just randoms that shouldn't be able to do a thing. Even pre-patch Sheik and Diddy weren't that problematic.

The very core of your Argument is that bayo is low risk high reward, yet you never specify how she's actually LOW risk. She has a good neutral, but one that pales to sheik and diddy POST nerfs, and it's something how the consensus to beating her is to camp her out. Her projectiles are MU dependable (please use those guns against pikachu or sheik if you want to lose the neutral like that) and her good neutral buttons are few and far between aside from her specials (Bair, Nair, Dtilt, Utilt (debatably so), ABK, And witch twist).

She's way more tame than diddy or sheik. You can actually win neutral against her. You don't have to deal with auto-win neutral buttons like needles or a move pretty much dead on melee fox shine (diddy's pre patch Uair). All you have to do is just keep winning the neutral against her.



If you actually read through that, congrats. Bayonetta's really toxic due to her gameplan forcing people to play incredibly boring and stressful, which can cause some players to snap (I myself snap several times against Bayonettas due to how dumb she can be, alongside several friends over the internet). She needs more nerfs than what she got, since while she was made to be an amazing fighter, she was built too powerful and is too much of a threat with too much reward for too little risk. If she was high risk very high reward I'd love the character, but her current design is flawed in its strength. All I hope for is another balance patch.

Tbh, I barely tap her combo game (make second Up B, Fair, and ABK slightly more SDIable). Then, I would nerf Bair, Dtilt, Utilt, increase the startup of ground Up B, put bayo into helpless state 1 (same as sonic after Up B) when she hits a shield with ABK, and increase the end lag and startup of witch time a little more. I would really TRY to not kill her. She's too unique and simply can play a play style that nobody else in the cast can do. Everybody plays like brawl metaknight; no real punish game, just all neutral.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Bayonetta is a very high reward, low risk character

I am starting to feel people's favorite phrase from ZeRo now is "Bayonetta is high reward, low risk" instead of "So a lot of people have been wondering".

relies on 0-deathing opponents within seconds at any percent

If it is at ant percent, then it isn't a zero to death. And those zero to death can be DI'ed.

as well as airdodges to bring opponents to the top or side blastzones

If you manage to airdodge, you are pretty much safe from the ladder combo.

She has Back Air, Up Smash, Forward Smash, Forward Throw at higher percents, Down Air, and Up Air (in a combo) as finishing moves,

Her smashes has a lot of startup and low priority. Up air is fairly weak and the combos involving it can be DI'ed. Down air got a lot of landing lag, back air is the only really safe one.

as well as having Forward Tilt with an incredible hitbox,

The only ftilt with crazy hitboxes is ftilt 3, which overall, comes out at around frame 40 (ftilt 1,2,3 combined).
Ftilt doesn't combo at high percent too.

Jab being her fastest option and a mixup into Grab,

Her jab is one of the slowest jab in the game (frame 9), even her dtilt and utilt is faster (frame 7). I don't think Jab combo into grab that well, her grab is pretty bad. And it isn't like she can do mich with a grab aside from 150+% kills.

Forward Air with a chance to KO at the sides if at ledge or closer to the blastzone and linking 1-2 into another 1-2

Training room combo? Seriously?

and a meteor in the sweetspot of Down Air

It isn't uncommon.

as well as Down Smash.

This unique, but not really broken in my opinion. It is surprisingly rare to land this in practice.

a ton of disjointed hitboxes

Aside from smashes, she doesn't have that much disjoints. Ftilt 3, Fair 1, Witch Twist, and that is about it.

and a three-part recovery that improves with a double jump, is extremely hard to intercept,

It is still possible, hard but far from impossible.

and her recovery moves set up into her zero-to-deaths.

Which, once again, can be DI'ed.

She has very little problem killing with an almost safe Back Air that can KO,

Surprisingly, she actually struggles to kill at high %. Smashes are slow, death combos stop working due to DI, Dair and Bair is fairly useless on shield and has okay range, grab is slow and fthrow is weak.

Heel Slide being difficult to intercept due to mixups with the second kick of Heel Slide or not having it,

Huh? Difficult for you maybe, but you need to (respectfully) get good.
You can read the mixup by checking if she was using BA while sliding (held B).

being forced to shield, and making you generally have to play in ways that are incredibly boring and stressful.

We aren't really asking you to sit in shield all day, but to play against her you need to use shield often. Many of her option are extremely weak against shield and you have to take advantage of that.

You can't play aggressive against her at the fear of Witch Time, Bat Within being amazing on rolls and spotdodges as well as an Airdodge

Just bait it or use grab more often, the Pound video where Mr R and Pink fought has shown being aggressive is possible. It isn't play campy, is playing smart.
While batwithin is a nice tool, it doesn't counter grabs and it force her to take half the damage when most other characters doesn't. Her dodges are also extremely punishable due to high endlag.

ways to 0-death off one read no matter the percent (when labbing for Bayo vs Little Mac I found she has at least 20 different variations past 60% that work, and three ways at 0%).

Was it training room combos? Is it impossible to DI?

She also has an amazing recovery intercepter in her Neutral Special

I don't really think BC is a good recovery interceptor due to the bad angle, and fairly weak without charge.

every move in her arsenal being good, and a general lack of real problems barring SOME problems getting past shield - which even then aren't too much.

Her moves are all pretty good, but her overall framedata and her terrible approach hold her back. Her combos can also be DI'ed, and give her a big amount of landing lag.
Her weakness are notable and she possesses many bad MU like Rosa, Sheik, Pika (eSam's opinion), Toon link, etc.

Even pre-patch Sheik and Diddy weren't that problematic.

I can tell you Bayonetta doesn't have much results. She is only #7 in terms of first place results in the past two month. Surpassed by Sheik, Cloud, Mario, Rosa, Diddy, and..... I forgot.

Bayonetta's really toxic due to her gameplan forcing people to play incredibly boring and stressful,

So she is toxic because it is boring to fight her? People considered Little Mac boring to fight too (camp at the ledge and bthrow).

Most of your argument are just argument parroted by pretty much every Bayonetta hating scrubs. With one of your point being a silly training room combo (fair 1,2,1,2) that basically never works in high level play, I question your knowledge on the topic.

 

[blackghost]

if you are complaining about bayonetta's dair or dsmash you shouldn't be responded to.
if you are dying to bayonettas dair you deserve it.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Literally the only stupid thing about Bayo at high/top level is WTw 2 > uAir.
Everything else can be dealt with.

 

[TTTTTsd]

No character in the history of this game holds a candle to pre-patch Diddy. This comparison needs to stop because it sucks.

Pre-patch Diddy was another league, plain and simple. Bayonetta uses all of her moveset, Diddy won entire tournaments with literally 1/4th of it pre-patching. We had no idea about even basic B Reversal movement stuff, no idea about Nanner technology (tm), or the power of the patented U-Throw (Btw, Diddy's throw game as of now is BETTER than it was before IMO, U-Throw sets up for combos way longer than old D-Throw did, it's just the nerfed Uair is way less silly)

If this game had no balance patches (oooohhh) there wouldn't be a ban Diddy controversy by now, he would've just been banned period tbqh.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Everyone is strong there. Its no different then the Street Fighter arcade scene in japan. You will have Daigo lose to arcade randoms because the average power level is so damn high compared to the US.

I wonder if the sheer population density of Japan has something to do with this. A lot more people in a much smaller space = higher odds of running into someone just as good as you are.

 

[Floor]

The best way to beat Bayonetta is to play Bayonetta and learn how she works. You also need to practice DI out of her combos. If you play conservatively and safely, she's not so bad. An aggressive play style won't work when you're above 80 because you could get witch timed and Up smashed. Try focusing on controling the middle of the stage and bait her in and punish. Remember, the more she tries to use aireal combos, the more lag she has. USE THIS TO YOUR ADVANTAGE! Her jab combo hardly damages your sheild, none of her attacks do really. Play it safe. Sheild, control the middle, and practice your reactions.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Anyone happen to know the attendance of Bayonetta banned tournaments vs. ones that don't ban her?

It'd be interesting if there was more attendance either way. Especially in areas that did ban her, then we can have an honest comparison before and after attendance.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

if you are complaining about bayonetta's dair or dsmash you shouldn't be responded to.
if you are dying to bayonettas dair you deserve it.

Yep. If you are getting edge guarded, WTed, baited, or end up entering a mis-input, you deserve to lose the stock. I could not be more in agreement with this post. /s

 

[KamikazePotato]

I think the question of "Should Bayonetta be banned?" is asked, it's important to approach it from two different angles.

There's the side of the question asking: "Should Bayonetta be banned because she's too powerful?" To that, I say no. She's almost certainly the #1 character in the game, but she's nowhere near what MK in Brawl was, or even Pre-Patch Diddy. Bayonetta can be realistically beaten, and will lose more often as the meta continues to develop and people get used to her.

There's also the side of the question asking: "Should Bayonetta be banned because she's detrimental to the game and community?" To that, I would say yes. Bayonetta is *not* a healthy character to have. 'High reward low risk' is thrown around a lot but that's because it's true. Bayonetta can carry poor players in ways that no one else on the roster can. She's also by far the most aggravating character in the game to fight by a wide margin - when players from all different skills levels are all complaining about how annoying she is to fight, there's something wrong. And this is a much bigger problem than most people are willing to admit. There has never been a competitive game that survived off of the simple mentality to win at competitions - it has to be fun as well. If Bayonetta becomes a widespread character like she's in danger of doing (only reason she hasn't honestly is because people are avoiding playing her due to stigma) than Smash 4's playerbase and popularity will absolutely drop. People don't like playing against Bayonetta and streamers don't like watching her.

With that said, even though I think both sides of the question are equally important, it's much harder to justify a ban based on the second part than the first. It's a bit of a slippery slope - when you ban a character based on them being toxic, you open the door to it happening to much less severe cases that don't warrant a ban. I'm sure a lot of people out there would jump for joy if Sonic was banned, for example...

I think I lean towards "No" overall because at the moment, banning her would have a potentially worse impact on the community than not banning her, but if time marches on and Bayonettas start to show up everywhere she might need to get the axe for the sake of the game's continued health.

 

[Zoramine Fae]

I think the question of "Should Bayonetta be banned?" is asked, it's important to approach it from two different angles.

There's the side of the question asking: "Should Bayonetta be banned because she's too powerful?" To that, I say no. She's almost certainly the #1 character in the game, but she's nowhere near what MK in Brawl was, or even Pre-Patch Diddy. Bayonetta can be realistically beaten, and will lose more often as the meta continues to develop and people get used to her.

There's also the side of the question asking: "Should Bayonetta be banned because she's detrimental to the game and community?" To that, I would say yes. Bayonetta is *not* a healthy character to have. 'High reward low risk' is thrown around a lot but that's because it's true. Bayonetta can carry poor players in ways that no one else on the roster can. She's also by far the most aggravating character in the game to fight by a wide margin - when players from all different skills levels are all complaining about how annoying she is to fight, there's something wrong. And this is a much bigger problem than most people are willing to admit. There has never been a competitive game that survived off of the simple mentality to win at competitions - it has to be fun as well. If Bayonetta becomes a widespread character like she's in danger of doing (only reason she hasn't honestly is because people are avoiding playing her due to stigma) than Smash 4's playerbase and popularity will absolutely drop. People don't like playing against Bayonetta and streamers don't like watching her.

With that said, even though I think both sides of the question are equally important, it's much harder to justify a ban based on the second part than the first. It's a bit of a slippery slope - when you ban a character based on them being toxic, you open the door to it happening to much less severe cases that don't warrant a ban. I'm sure a lot of people out there would jump for joy if Sonic was banned, for example...

I think I lean towards "No" overall because at the moment, banning her would have a potentially worse impact on the community than not banning her, but if time marches on and Bayonettas start to show up everywhere she might need to get the axe for the sake of the game's continued health.

I like this. You summarize both of the sides well and with how many people are on the 'no' side of things I'm thinking I'll have to change my thinking. One like to you.

Also, holy fudge so many people liked my post then so many immediately go after me on a manhunt. Apparently this topic is even more fiercely debated than I was thinking o.0

 

[SoccerStar9001]

'High reward low risk' is thrown around a lot but that's because it's true.

Maybe, but people are tossing this around without really explaining why she is low risk aside from "ZeRo said so".

And this is a much bigger problem than most people are willing to admit.

Despite that, it is still a pretty small problem. It isn't like Bayonetta got a lot of results to back up the claims that she is a problem.
Looking at Bayonetta's results, she is definitely not taking over the competitive scene (Cloud is actually, he is everywhere).

(only reason she hasn't honestly is because people are avoiding playing her due to stigma)

Flat out wrong. She is the third most used character since her release.
She might have a stigma, but people aren't avoiding her by any means.
Dabuz even announced her as a secondary.

People don't like playing against Bayonetta and streamers don't like watching her.

I heard people hate Sonic too (all hate goes to Sega eh?). Maybe we should ban him.
The only real argument to banning Bayonetta can also be applied to other characters.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

Maybe, but people are tossing this around without really explaining why she is low risk aside from "ZeRo said so".

Whether or not someone explains something doesn't change the fact that it's true. We've been through this discussion time and time again, everyone agrees on this fact. If you really want an explanation, I'd love to give it to you.

Flat out wrong. She is the third most used character since her release.
She might have a stigma, but people aren't avoiding her by any means.
Dabuz even announced her as a secondary.

Several people actually do refuse to play the character, and there is a stigma. At my local scene a player stopped using her because he was sick of the criticisms he was receiving. This is far from the only case I've heard of someone not playing her because of how people think of the character. Several pro players have also voiced their opinions against her which has been discouraging to many mid-level players.

I heard people hate Sonic too (all hate goes to Sega eh?). Maybe we should ban him.
The only real argument to banning Bayonetta can also be applied to other characters.

Sonic has some actual weaknesses and is not a character that we've seen people just pick up and win with. On top of that, no one is calling him toxic and it's not a major debate that has split the community in half. If you want bad reasoning for a ban, re-read your statement. Several of the reasons people have for wanting a ban are exclusive to Bayonetta.

You really gotta stop nitpicking every single person who says something you don't agree with. You hardly ever even argue with the main points that they say, and then you regurgitate the same information you've been repeating for the last 20 pages. Anyways, my responses to your points are in bold.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

You really gotta stop nitpicking every single person who says something you don't agree with. You hardly ever even argue with the main points that they say, and then you regurgitate the same information you've been repeating for the last 20 pages. Anyways, my responses to your points are in bold.

Sorry dude, I like doing that.
I didn't really disagree with what he said. But I made some small response.

Whether or not someone explains something doesn't change the fact that it's true. We've been through this discussion time and time again, everyone agrees on this fact. If you really want an explanation, I'd love to give it to you.

Sure, do so please.

Several people actually do refuse to play the character, and there is a stigma. At my local scene a player stopped using her because he was sick of the criticisms he was receiving. This is far from the only case I've heard of someone not playing her because of how people think of the character. Several pro players have also voiced their opinions against her which has been discouraging to many mid-level players.

I know there are people who won't play (like ZeRo). But that point was she wasn't taking over the scene because people refused to play her, which is far from true. She is the third most used character, and somehow she still hasn't taken over the scene. It doesn't matter if 500 people refused to play her, because she is still the third most used character.
Not much pro player is against her, only ZeRo and one or two others. And even ZeRo said it is best to adapt than banning her and he was against Spain's ban.

Sonic has some actual weaknesses and is not a character that we've seen people just pick up and win with. On top of that, no one is calling him toxic and it's not a major debate that has split the community in half. If you want bad reasoning for a ban, re-read your statement. Several of the reasons people have for wanting a ban are exclusive to Bayonetta.

No one is calling him toxic becuase ZeRo didn't make a video calling him toxic.
The pick up and win argument is extremely flawed. Only one Bayonetta made it to Top 8 at Pound, and despite being the third most used character, in the past two months, six other characters have better results.
Most of the reason against her are not enough or just straight up untrue.
Why don't you explain why she should be banned? Not saying you are for the ban, but you are defending anti Bayonetta's side.

 

[Octagon]

You really gotta stop nitpicking every single person who says something you don't agree with. You hardly ever even argue with the main points that they say, and then you regurgitate the same information you've been repeating for the last 20 pages. Anyways, my responses to your points are in bold.

Well he's not nitpicking every single thing, he's just arguing because this is a discussion. Remember what Jackie Love said in Semi-Pro: "Everybody Love Everybody"

 

[ぱみゅ]

Rawkstar, in your "reply" you pretty much said "I don't need to justify anything, I'll just have to keep stating it like it's true until it echoes so much everyone accepts it as truth".
That's what I got from your first point.




ANYWAY.

I've been lurking this thread for a while, maybe a bit too much lurking without actually commenting or moderating.
I didn't want to do so because I was confused between taking a side (which I obviously have) or being a moderator. Such indecision made it into a thread where everyone is calling each other our and bad arguing runs amok, with things like not elaborating your points, being overly sarcastic/satirical, nitpicking for the sake of doing so, and implying a lot of bad things of Bayonetta's users and detractors.
All in all I just decided I made up my mind, and my decision is: to moderate.

From this post on, your post REALLY needs to elaborate, to address questions (not ignore them or saying you don't need to explain [and for the sake of it, stating you've answered the same point to the same person on several occasions is a fair complain and will be considered for a case of trolling]), to be concise, and avoid any form of non-constructive debating.

TL;DR:
From this point on, this thread will be much, MUCH stricter than it was.

 

[Sha-Shulk]

I am against Bayonetta as a character, but i don't think a ban is warranted this early after release. Sorry that I don't have specifics, but my real problem with Bayonetta is just how much she overturned the gameplay in smash. IMO, the last DLC character (looking at you, Corrin) shouldn't have warped the gameplay and style by introducing a character such as Bayonetta.

I dislike Bayonetta because:

zero-deaths (it would be nice if someone told me HOW to DI, instead of saying "DI scrub")
INSANE aerial combo potential (again, DI can get out of which combos again?)
stupid Dair (but wasn't it nerfed in 1.1.5?)

Witch Time.
Now, let me explain why I don't like Witch Time.

For example, if I am a pikachu, and i jab Bayo (unrealistic that Bayo would read that but for the sake of example, go with it) doesn't it produce the same time-slow of a WT'd fsmash or other such powerful move? Why does it do that? Why doesn't it scale with victim percent and attack strength? I'm fine with the slow-down, but when i get punished from a tilt (hahaha git good scrub) and get comboed for about ~30% that is frustrating. I know about the bad lag and stuff, but wouldn't a top level player NOT be reckless w/ the counter?

Also, is it true that Bayo's Bat Within can be used against her? If so, PLEASE provide details. Otherwise there is no proof to your claim. (of course, my whole post is void of evidence, so.... sorry 'bout that)

I am hoping for a 1.1.6. patch that BALANCES Bayonetta. A mix of nerfs and buffs. Is there a thread that has that kind of discussion? Or is that labeled as wishful thinking and that kind of thread has no merit to exist?

P.S. why are people bringing up Diddy, Sheik, Rosa, Sonic, in a BAYONETTA thread?

 

[blackghost]

I am against Bayonetta as a character, but i don't think a ban is warranted this early after release. Sorry that I don't have specifics, but my real problem with Bayonetta is just how much she overturned the gameplay in smash. IMO, the last DLC character (looking at you, Corrin) shouldn't have warped the gameplay and style by introducing a character such as Bayonetta.

I dislike Bayonetta because:

zero-deaths (it would be nice if someone told me HOW to DI, instead of saying "DI scrub")
INSANE aerial combo potential (again, DI can get out of which combos again?)
stupid Dair (but wasn't it nerfed in 1.1.5?)

Witch Time.
Now, let me explain why I don't like Witch Time.

For example, if I am a pikachu, and i jab Bayo (unrealistic that Bayo would read that but for the sake of example, go with it) doesn't it produce the same time-slow of a WT'd fsmash or other such powerful move? Why does it do that? Why doesn't it scale with victim percent and attack strength? I'm fine with the slow-down, but when i get punished from a tilt (hahaha git good scrub) and get comboed for about ~30% that is frustrating. I know about the bad lag and stuff, but wouldn't a top level player NOT be reckless w/ the counter?

Also, is it true that Bayo's Bat Within can be used against her? If so, PLEASE provide details. Otherwise there is no proof to your claim. (of course, my whole post is void of evidence, so.... sorry 'bout that)

I am hoping for a 1.1.6. patch that BALANCES Bayonetta. A mix of nerfs and buffs. Is there a thread that has that kind of discussion? Or is that labeled as wishful thinking and that kind of thread has no merit to exist?

P.S. why are people bringing up Diddy, Sheik, Rosa, Sonic, in a BAYONETTA thread?

theres a reddit post on how to DI bayonetta it was put together by dabuz. she is unique in smash history hoinestly because you need to shift your DI in reaction a few times in combo but the most rule with bayo is in general DI away. if you can consistantly DI dabk away she will have a hard time with you. in the air DI down and away on abk.
witch time is interesting in general to deal with it got for moves that are under 5-7 frames. also there are ties (such as chasing her into the air) where getting witch timed isnt bad. you want to avoid even possibly triggering the counter or getting hard read by just watching your buttons.its hard to learn to fight but its just a learning curve.
bat within is the most misunderstood move in the game. it is a frame 1-3 "airdodge technically but it has a massive amount of lag and when she uses it she cannot counter attack you. she also retains momentum when she uses this move. to punish it chase her with very quick moves on the air or groun. when she reapears you can grab her and restart the combo or go for a smash punish.
for instance if bayonetta is falling down at a zss and she upairs on reaction to the batwithin zss can nair or bair depending on which direction bayonetta is falling. once again his is hard. batwithin can also be used agaisnt her to create unique frame traps that only will work on her combining her landing lag and air dodge recovery frames. its easist to see with a mario doing a dthrow and uptilt chain on a bayo. bathwithin just allows mario to start over. each character has something different they can do to bathin in different situations.

 

[Charoite]

Because of the arguments about why she needs to be banned, if she needs to be banned because she is toxic and we dont want to deal with her, then what is stopping us for banning every single character that is disliked by the community :, the pro-ban arguments more than not, evade actual data, not only in results but theory, and more than not uses subjective things to base of, example:

when tournaments results is used to claim why she is not ban worthy, the pro-ban arguments are more than not, she right not getting results, but she would totally do when more time passes, of course she is getting results she is a top tier, what matters is the numbers of results the character gets.

Another one is the toxic arguments, that they use when results are used: The she is beatable, she has bad matchups, BUT, she is toxic, not fun to play or watch, this is when you enter a gray zone, because these things are subjective, and cannot be used as data, comparing to results.

In my case i would say that people jumped the gun and like usually, the smash community is very good at managing these things, so in my opinion we need to wait for more data, make the top players actually play the character so we can deduce if counter play for she is founded, and if said counterplay is not enough then we can go to a conclusion, i dont want the balance team to gut one character because of a problem in how the community do things, in short i dont want a second , maybe is easy for you because you dont use the character, but other people do.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

Rawkstar, in your "reply" you pretty much said "I don't need to justify anything, I'll just have to keep stating it like it's true until it echoes so much everyone accepts it as truth".

Sure, do so please.

You're absolutely 100% correct, gentlemen. I should've gone into more detail. (Also apologies to SoccerStar if I was a little rude in my last post). Alright, well, I (among others) genuinely believe that the character is low risk high reward. Here is a short, sweet, and totally unbiased write-up as to why I feel this way:

For one, the characters moves are built to lead into each other. There are some pretty simple combos that you can pull off that will net around 20%-30% regardless of what percent the opponents character is at. Sure other characters have these, but a things to note: (1) other characters' combos generally stop working after a particular percent, (2) Bayonetta's don't necessarily stop after the 20-30% threshold, they can keep going (3) several of her moves link into one another whereas most characters only have it out of a grab or a tilt, and (4) DI, weight, and gravity affects other characters' combos more.

We've seen several players get 0 to deathed by different combos. In one case it was because MVD threw a banana (Vod). In another case it was because Remzi jumped, and ended up dying for it (Vod). Which totally happens. Greward was zero to deathed twice in one game (Vod). Ally got comboed to death from 26% because he was WTed (Vod). Yes, all of these players made mistakes, but I don't think you should lose a stock for making a mistake like this, especially if you're at 0%. (I'm aware 0 to deaths happen in melee, the difference is the entire cast is capable of making them happen, that is not the case in this game). And more over, these are high level players, these aren't nobodies. There are several other ridiculous pieces of footage I'd love to show you, but you get the point. And I get it, it can be DIed, but Bayonetta players are capable of reading that DI and changing up the combos. (I was also pretty amazed Bayo mains were capable of this).

Witch Time is also a huge talking point. KuroganeHammer has compiled the data from all of the counters in the game, and placed them all one on page. First thing to note is that Bayonetta's counter is the fastest counter to activate (on frame 5, tied with Little Mac and Lucario). While the actual counter doesn't last as long as other characters, it also has by far the least amount of endlag. The FAF is frame 50, so the entire animation is 49 frames. The next counter with the shortest animation is Ike. His animation lasts 58 frames, countering from 9 to 35 (26 frames) with 23 frames of CD. If we compare that to Bayonetta, her animation lasts 49 frames, countering from 5 to 21 (16 frames) with 28 frames of CD. With that said, Bat Within can be triggered frame 17-29 giving her a total of 20 frames of CD (though you can grab her during those frames of BW iirc). While that's not too far off from Ike's counter in terms of frame data, the payout is MUCH different. Ike's counter will scale the damage dealt to him (as will every counter in the game). This means that if someone were to, oh I dunno, throw a banana at Ike, they would take about 6% (as the damage scalar is 1.2) and the KB that comes with that is 48 BKG and 100 KBG (all assuming they're in range of his sword). If the Bayonetta managed to counter a Banana (her counter range is more lenient than Ike's FYI) and went with a safe option of an uncharged uSmash, it would deal 17% with 32 BKG and 90 KBG. If the Bayonetta wanted to, she could also opt to go for a combo, a charged smash attack, or re-position her opponent offstage and go for a very early kill (as seen in this set between Seibrik and Pink Fresh).

Yes there is a penalty for using Witch Time. If the move is "fresh" and connects, the opponent will suffer for 180 frames (3 seconds). If a Witch Time is whiffed, the stun will last 105 frames (losing 75 frames or 1.25 seconds of stun). For the next 20 seconds, WT will recharge at a rate of 6 frames of WT for every 100 frames in game. This means after approximately 21 seconds WT is fresh again. In all honesty, this is hardly a penalty as WT cannot be staled as every other c̶o̶u̶n̶t̶e̶r move in the game can be. (Before I get called out on it by our friend SoccerStar, I should mention WT will be penalized regardless of whether or not it connects whereas the other moves need to connect in order to be staled).

Bullet arts is another interesting argument. Bayonetta is really the only character that can miss an attack, but still hit you. The damage is minuscule and almost insignificant but over time it will add up. More over, against characters who don't have projectiles or any way of long range attacking, bullets can force approaches. It should be noted that at certain ranges, bullets from particular moves cause hit stun as well as shield damage. Her aerials are a great way for her to keep mobility while safely pressuring the opponent. Absolutely no risk involved here. (Disclaimer: there is risk if you're stupid about it).

Several of her approaches are also pretty difficult to deal with, especially for less experienced players. Heal slide (grounded Side B) isn't particularly safe, but has relatively quick CD and if it does hit, it can lead into some pretty meaty combos. DABK is pretty safe on shield, not safe if it whiffs and hits the ground, but just like the last move, doesn't have a massive amount of endlag, and can also wrack up a ton of damage off of one opening. Combine these low endlag moves with a spotdodge that has frame 1 Bat Within and you're set (will talk about this later). Bair is safe, bullet camping is safe, and Witch Twist is safe. For those who don't know, Witch Twist has a 28 frame animation, with hitboxes going everywhere frames 4 to 25 meaning in total, there are 6 frames of no hitbox (3 at the beginning and 3 at the end). Combine this with a move like bair and you have a killer combination of moves to throw out in neutral. There is very little an opponent can do against this. If the opponent gets hit, best case scenario is they take 10-13% from bair. Worst case scenario is they get caught by Witch Twist and comboed for a while. Talk about low risk high reward.

Now Bayonetta's edge guarding is something we don't hear a lot about, but it's pretty ridiculous. For one, most recovery moves have a hitbox, so that's a free Witch Time. I mean the character is giving up stage control and getting to combo/spike/KO you because of it. That's totally fair. But let's say this Bayo is a little more lame than your average Bayo. Well dair is a pretty ridiculous move too, with a spike, potential to stage spike, and a wild landing hit. Not to mention it allows her to go pretty deep offstage which is extremely useful against characters who try to delay their recoveries or have predictable recoveries. (Unfortunately, after the last patch Bayo mains now have to short hop before going off with a dair. My heart goes out to all those who were affected by this change). In the event that the Bayonetta doesn't opt to Witch Time and her dair misses, the character now has to worry about Bayonetta coming back up. Witch Twist has some pretty crazy knockback (and while it doesn't actively launch characters far) it can cause some pretty rough stage spikes. I've seen it a few times on stream. Might try to find a vod for y'all later...Oh, I forgot about the event where the opponent recovers high and Bayonetta is now offstage due to some silly dair read and now has no stage control. Luckily for Bayonetta, Witch Twist is pretty disjointed, so edge guarding is suuuuper difficult. For those in doubt... And don't forget it hits through the stage :/ I think she certainly has the best offstage game, and if not, then she's very close to being within the top 5. The fact that she's so freakin hard to gimp should also be noted.

Bat Within is also a super fair and balanced attribute to the character. Being able to escape comboes that are one frame off is pretty insane. A lot of the cast has a frame 3 airdodge, Bayonetta's (while technically her actual airdodge starts frame 5) is on frame 1 due to Bat Within. Bat Within causes Bayonetta to take half damage, but she can also reposition herself. What does that mean? It means you can go for a combo, be a frame off, and have her suddenly have more stage control than you. (Stage control is pretty important for those who didn't know). It also means that she can avoid dying a few extra times if you're punish isn't perfect. IT ALSO MEANS that there are some kill confirms that are true on the rest of the cast are not true on her. Don't forget that all of this applies to her spotdodge as well. It's true that her spot dodge and airdodge have some of the worst cooldown in the game (so like 3 frames worse than a lot of the cast, hard hit I know). Though that's a pretty fair compensation if you're escaping combos. But hey, just don't get baited, and you won't get punished!

Now let's talk about her biggest weakness: all that endlag from those combos. Remember how she suffers more and more landing lag the more and more she combos you. Yeah well it can be canceled. You heard me, her biggest weakness can be canceled! Here's a little video demonstrating it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbO50LuDvGg It should be noted that her Witch Time can also cancel landing lag :/ But Rawkstar, if she does it a lot it will be predictable and punished! You're absolutely right, which is why Bayonettas also tend to go to the ledge to avoid this lag and throw out aerials while they're falling to keep you away.

But the best part is, this lag isn't even that bad when we break it down. Like if Rosalina lands with a fair, she's gonna suffer 20 frames of lag! If Falcon lands with a knee, 30 frames of lag! Diddy Kong will eat 26 frames for landing with a fair! Fox misses a dair and he's gonna have 25 frames of endlag. Meta Knight- well, you get the point. At the bottom of her page, Kurogane was nice enough to put together a table showing several different amounts of lag Bayo will suffer after a combination of her moves. Link. You'll notice that several of these combinations will net her around 20-30 frames of landing lag (yes it goes up to like 43 frames, but no Bayo is going to be comboing nothingness for you to punish later). If we compare this to the characters I listed above, they're all risking [roughly] the same thing. The difference is, if Bayonetta's move connects, she's almost guaranteed a combo off of it. If the other characters moves connect, they usually won't lead into much else. They're all risking the same thing, but the potential reward for Bayonetta is so much higher! Whatever punish she takes, will most likely be the same punish these characters take. It should also be noted that the majority of her aerials have a pretty minor amount of landing lag compared to Fox, Meta Knight, Diddy Kong, Rosalina, etc. And I thought people were complaining about her bad frame data, silly me.

I guess I could also ***** about how her combos don't really need to be adjusted depending on who she's playing against. Like if I wanted to be lame, I'd play Mario, downthrow you and utilt you for a while. But I'd have to be aware of my opponent and if they could fast fall out and roll away, or if I'm against Yoshi or Luigi with a frame 3 nair and hurt me for being lame. Or if I wanted to be hype and go for an airdodge read as Falcon. If my opponent like, didn't airdodge and counter attacked instead, I'm kind of in trouble. Or if I'm Sheik and I wanna optimize my damage output off of a throw, I gotta be ready to read the DI so I don't bouncing fish myself onto the stage like a fool. When I'm Ryu I gotta be wary of when my opponent has a multihit so I can't just tank away with focus attack. Bayonetta doesn't have to worry about any of this. The only thing she has to worry about is what she is going to do next, and how she's going to execute it. If done right, her combos are true, they treat you as if you weigh as much as Cloud, and your gravity is also ignored because let's just make it as easy as possible. And to top it all off, you can't DI particular parts of her combos. I mean, I'm not trying to make it sound like she's easy mode...(Yes I am).

And this isn't all theory, we've seen some of the best players fall to these people who really weren't the biggest names before. I mean Nairo losing to Saj and Salem. Ally losing to 9B. MVD losing to Pink Fresh. Ryo and StaticManny (aka Oni Heero) losing to Riot...Look, I know I've been overly sarcastic and rather disrespectful to Bayo mains in this post, but even I know that PF, Saj, Salem, Riot, and all the other "up and comers" are great players. But until Bayonetta came out, we didn't see much from them. I'm sure part of it is from a lack of MU knowledge, but I can't help but feel like Bayonetta definitely has some connection. And if it's not cause she's low risk - high reward with an AMAZING toolkit, then I'll be damned.

If it were just one or two things, whatever, I along with everyone else would be able to manage it. But they add up and it gets kind of exhausting to deal with. The character has so much goodness going for her, and even more untapped potential. I'm honestly terrified of what people are going to be capable of doing in a few months. She has no problems killing, comboing, playing in the neutral, punishing, (she excels at these) and as far as being in the disadvantage stage isn't as dangerous as it is for a lot of other characters. I don't see her as a fundamentally stable character, but that's for another write up.

So there ya have it. I hope this was up to your expectations Mr. Chinese moderator guy. I really do think that with as much good stuff as she has going for her, it's hard to say that she's not low risk high reward. But I dunno, this may not have been the most satisfactory response, so...yeah. Feel free to disagree.

 

[Ghidorah14]

I'd just like to say that the argument that "no names picked up bayo and started getting results" should not be considered a valid argument for banning or toxicity. This is because those "no name" players who picked up bayonetta have almost always previously mained a low tier character like palutena or donkey kong. It's only natural that picking up what most consider the best character in the game would also improve one's results. The same can be applied to other top tiers like sheik, rosalina, ryu, sonic, and pikachu.

When you arm yourself with a better weapon, you increase your chances of winning, as opposed to what could be considered actively handicapping yourself by using a weaker weapon.

 

[teluoborg]

I agree with what Ghidora said. No one resented Nairo when he dropped Zelda/Robin for ZSS.

If anything it's the opposite mentality that doesn't make sense in a competitive environment.


Also @Rawkstar let's not forget that the meta is evolving and players are learning the matchup. I take my local scene as an example : right now in France we're in the state where most top player have stopped being cheesed by Bayo's gimmicks and it's Bayo players' turn to adapt and learn to play the game without abusing said gimmicks.

Sooner than later we'll reach a point where both Bayo players and their opponents know the matchup and we'll be able to answer the important question that is "Is playing the Bayo matchup correctly considered degenerate or unwanted gameplay ?" because that would be the only legitimate reason to ban her.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

So there ya have it. I hope this was up to your expectations Mr. Chinese moderator guy.

Pretty sure that's Japanese.

I am just amazed at the amount you posted.
Well... here goes nothing.

For one, the characters moves are built to lead into each other......

(1) Bayonetta's combo also stop working after certain %
(2) Other character's combo also doesn't necessarily stop after 20-30%, they too can keep going.
(3) Other character also very often have a lot of different combos, grab and tilt isn't the only combo starter for everyone.
(4) DI has the same amount of effect as other combos

We've seen several players get 0 to deathed by different combos.

All of these happened before Beefy Smash Doods' video I believe, this is just be the heavy lack of MU knowledge.
I should note, you can't "read" a DI, a read is always just guessing. You could change up the combo, but it is usually multiple 50/50 resulting it Bayonetta's combo has started to be more tame recently after the video.

Witch Time is also a huge talking point.

The CD talk is silly. With this train of thoughts, it would be impossible to punish an air dodge because it has only 5 frames of CD.
Witch Time is just another counter, it can be baited and it doesn't cancel lingering hitbox so you have to manually punish. It is completely possible to mess up or have your combo DI'ed, or have the Witch Time be too short to set up much.

Yes there is a penalty for using Witch Time.

What? The last sentence make no sense. If you don't use a move, it will not stale.
The effect of the first stale is very noticeable and staling a second time makes the move basically useless.

Bullet arts is another interesting argument.

The BA argument is pretty silly in my eyes.
Sure, small damage can build up over time, but that doesn't change the fact that the damage is minuscule. It is pretty much a worse Fox laser, it is rarely used in high level play.
The only range BA does hitstun is the blast from her gun. It has less range than her actual attack. Jab have more range than Jab BA blast.
The shield damage BA does is a joke, putting the shield only result in 1 or 2%.

Several of her approaches are also pretty difficult to deal with, especially for less experienced players.

O_o
Her approach is bad, hence trouble against Rosa and other Zoners.
Her ground approach options are laggy and slow.
Her aerial approach options comes down to dABK, and bair.
Her approach options are easy to deal with once you learn the MU.
Low lag doesn't equal low risk. Most of Puff's moves have low lag (cut Rest), Little Mac's moves are also very quick. The main reason that they are high risk is because their safe moves are useless on shield, they have multiple unsafe moves, they are easy to KO.
We can't determine how risky Bayonetta actually is yet. Calling her low risk due to low lag is just jumping to conclusions.

Now Bayonetta's edge guarding is something we don't hear a lot about, but it's pretty ridiculous.

It is actually pretty hard to Witch Time a recovery, mainly because most recovery either multi hits or is very quick. Most recovery also doesn't hit above the ledge, so she has to first jump off, then Witch Time, then recover, then punish. A staled Witch Time is usually useless to use on a recovering opponent.
Bayonetta's edgeguarding game is just okay. Her air speed is low and using her specials can make it extremely hard to recover later and without her second jump, her recover is Little Mac tier.
Edgeguarding Bayonetta is fairly hard, but not impossible. Witch Twist is pretty much untouchable but ABK offers a small moment to attack. Bayonetta's recovery is certainly good, but you can deal with it.

Bat Within is also a super fair and balanced attribute to the character.

Glad you understand.
Now you are exaggerating a bit too much. A considerable amount of characters have a frame 2 air dodge. The difference between frame 3 and frame 1 is extremely small. Every frame counts but lets not take it too seriously. Only a small amount of combos are affected and most other combos can already be escaped with a frame 3 air dodge (usually a good player will know this and read an air dodge).

Now let's talk about her biggest weakness: all that endlag from those combos.

BC has much more lag than her special landing lag (duration 70 frames), the bad angle won't protect her at all. And if you are too far to punish using BC in the air; odds are, you are too far to punish the landing lag in the first place.
Using WT stales the move, not really worth using aside from obvious punish attempt.
Going for the ledge is an extremely risky option and I would recommend just straight up land normally. If you are going for the ledge after using up all your special, there is nothing you can do against a meteor smash or a smash attack. You can fend them off with an aerial, but you can't grab the ledge during it. You can't WTime, bair, airdodge. Missing the ledge is death.

But the best part is, this lag isn't even that bad when we break it down.

This I agree with, they should increase the landing lag.
But comparing it to a normal landing lag is stupid. Normal landing lag occurs when you are landing with the move, Bayonetta's lag occurs when she lands with or without a move, 20 frames is more than enough time to punish.
I should also mention most of the moves you mention have great auto cancel windows, never used for landing, or have outright low landing lag.
I have no idea why you brought up MK as his landing lag is pretty low.

I guess I could also ***** about how her combos don't really need to be adjusted depending on who she's playing against.

She has only two moves that ignore weight and gravity, complain if you want.
As for the "disabled DI" myth.
https://twitter.com/uekibachii/status/723401416719536134

And this isn't all theory, we've seen some of the best players fall to these people who really weren't the biggest names before.

Must have been a campaign to ban MK when Leo beat Mr. R and Vinnie.
As Ghidorah said,

This is because those "no name" players who picked up bayonetta have almost always previously mained a low tier character like palutena or donkey kong. It's only natural that picking up what most consider the best character in the game would also improve one's results. The same can be applied to other top tiers like sheik, rosalina, ryu, sonic, and pikachu.

Nowadays, beating a top player with Bayonetta is very hard.

If it were just one or two things, whatever, I along with everyone else would be able to manage it.But they add up and it gets kind of exhausting to deal with. The character has so much goodness going for her, and even more untapped potential. I'm honestly terrified of what people are going to be capable of doing in a few months. She has no problems killing, comboing, playing in the neutral, punishing, (she excels at these) and as far as being in the disadvantage stage isn't as dangerous as it is for a lot of other characters. I don't see her as a fundamentally stable character, but that's for another write up.

Once again, paranoia. She is not gonna be 400% crazier later. At best 2 or 5%.
She actually have trouble killing, especially at high %.
Her neutral is below average due to bad grab, slow and predictable moves, and sub par mobility.

As I said before, most of the points aren't really enough to back up the claim for banning her. It is more of claim to "why I don't like her", which is completely respectable.
But people really just need to (respectfully) get good.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

I agree with what Ghidora said. No one resented Nairo when he dropped Zelda/Robin for ZSS.

If anything it's the opposite mentality that doesn't make sense in a competitive environment.


Also @Rawkstar let's not forget that the meta is evolving and players are learning the matchup. I take my local scene as an example : right now in France we're in the state where most top player have stopped being cheesed by Bayo's gimmicks and it's Bayo players' turn to adapt and learn to play the game without abusing said gimmicks.

Sooner than later we'll reach a point where both Bayo players and their opponents know the matchup and we'll be able to answer the important question that is "Is playing the Bayo matchup correctly considered degenerate or unwanted gameplay ?" because that would be the only legitimate reason to ban her.

So much this. Most players that are complaining right now aren't even in a legitimate position to judge her properly.
I know many people don't want to learn the MU because it's so much outside of their normal learning process.
Most people didn't ever need to use SDI before Bayo showed up and it's basically a requirement to play against her.
It is a tough MU for pretty much everyone and I know high level Bayo players that are all for a proper nerf, but first we need to actually work for the right to make a thought out judgement about her meta influence.

Spoiler

she is one hell of a pubstomper though, I tell you that

 

[Deleted member 269706]

teluoborg You are correct sir, but my post was in fact not an argument saying we should ban her, but rather a post explaining how she is low risk high reward. That's it. Yes the meta is evolving, and yes people are adapting, and that's going to come with time, but the fact that a lot of her options are pretty non commital yet really rewarding doesn't change. I'm not saying she's this unbeatable character, but what she's capable of, and the combination of things she's has in her arsenal is unlike any other character. As is playing against her. But again, my post was mainly oriented towards her low risk high reward play style, so I'd like to hear your take on that.

 

[teluoborg]

Well I'll repeat something I said a few pages earlier and that got drowned in the flow : the answer to an absurd risk/reward paradigm is to either make the risk higher or the reward lower.
How to make the reward lower : use a character that can invalidate her standard ladder combo either by escaping it or countering it (think how Greninja can SS out of it or how Jiggs can rest the last hit of WT2). Knowing the correct DI for each situation to keep the Bayo guessing helps too, even though it doesn't reduce the reward with 100% efficiency.


How to make the risks higher : have a character with good range/mobility/both that can punish her basic combo starters. Also with general matchup knowledge rising I can see a lot of her combo starters not working anymore because people will be prepared. Grounded side B is a perfect example : it's slow both on startup and cooldown and its only strenghts are its travel distance and the low profile component. IMO the only moves that will stay problematic when the meta settles will be her Nair, her Dtilt and her Dive Kick, the rest being DIable, reactable or zonable.


Or you can wait until a patch does that.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

That's an awesome way to look at it and I totally see what you're getting at. The problem is whether it's making the reward lower or the risk higher, you have to counter-pick her. Both of your statements begin with "[use/have] a character..." I just think it's silly that the Bayo MU is evolving to a point where counterpicking is the answer. And yeah, that was the answer to Sheik and Diddy (prepatch) and that's why I agree with the nerfs that befell them. Before the patches they kinda shut down like 80% of the cast, and still had advantage over the other 20% (made up stats, but you get the idea). Bayo is similar, maybe not as severe, but similar.

With that said, I'm just as sick of this "wait for the patch" mentality as you are, which is one of the reasons why I've been so actively engaged in this topic, because I don't think that's the mentality we should have. I've been looking at this issue as it is right now and as if it isn't going to change. But I also don't think counter-picking should be the primary answer to Bayonetta.

 

[Sha-Shulk]

So it seems to me like we're all in agreement that Bayo is the new pre-patch Sheik and Diddy? (not to the extent that they were, but i hope you know what i mean.)

EDIT: What are the best counterpicks to Bayo? And for what reasons?

 

[Dr.Megaman]

Maybe, but people are tossing this around without really explaining why she is low risk aside from "ZeRo said so".


Despite that, it is still a pretty small problem. It isn't like Bayonetta got a lot of results to back up the claims that she is a problem.
Looking at Bayonetta's results, she is definitely not taking over the competitive scene (Cloud is actually, he is everywhere).


Flat out wrong. She is the third most used character since her release.
She might have a stigma, but people aren't avoiding her by any means.
Dabuz even announced her as a secondary.


I heard people hate Sonic too (all hate goes to Sega eh?). Maybe we should ban him.
The only real argument to banning Bayonetta can also be applied to other characters.

Sonic actually has many more weaknesses than Bayo. Sonic also has far worse MUs over Bayonetta. There's is really no need to ban Sonic.

 

[Funbot28]

So it seems to me like we're all in agreement that Bayo is the new pre-patch Sheik and Diddy? (not to the extent that they were, but i hope you know what i mean.)

EDIT: What are the best counterpicks to Bayo? And for what reasons?

I feel thats the general sentiment. For counterpicks, I believe Diddy Kong to be one because Bananas pressure her really hard, Sonic can also spindash out of a lot of potential combo starters as well.

 

[Sha-Shulk]

I feel thats the general sentiment. For counterpicks, I believe Diddy Kong to be one because Bananas pressure her really hard, Sonic can also spindash out of a lot of potential combo starters as well.

Do bananas interrupt her grounded side-b? Also what's with Greninja and shadow sneak? And Jiggs and rest?

 

[SoccerStar9001]

So it seems to me like we're all in agreement that Bayo is the new pre-patch Sheik and Diddy?

Not to me, we don't have enough results, and the current results is underwhelming compared the pre patch Sheik/Diddy.

Sonic actually has many more weaknesses than Bayo. Sonic also has far worse MUs over Bayonetta. There's is really no need to ban Sonic

And your proof.......? Not that I am trying to ban him.
Bayonetta has her weaknesses and she does have a lot of bad MU. But I guess my biggest point is the lack of results.

 

[Funbot28]

Do bananas interrupt her grounded side-b? Also what's with Greninja and shadow sneak? And Jiggs and rest?

Ya Greninja is another good option, but Jiggs is a little too niche

 

[Sha-Shulk]

Not to me, we don't have enough results, and the current results is underwhelming compared the pre patch Sheik/Diddy.


And your proof.......? Not that I am trying to ban him.
Bayonetta has her weaknesses and she does have a lot of bad MU.

Okay, seriously, you seem to always nitpick on everyone else, but you never further the discussion yourself(ask questions, provide insight....etc)

+Funbot28, Is greninja only good with Shadow Sneak, or does he have mobiltiy advantage, or rather, does his insane overall mobility give him a noticably large advantage in this MU compared to other MU's?

 

[Octagon]

Do bananas interrupt her grounded side-b? Also what's with Greninja and shadow sneak? And Jiggs and rest?

And what about Warios bike?

 

[Sha-Shulk]

And what about Warios bike?

Oh yeah! Good catch on that one, I think it does interrupt it, I mean, doesn't it interrupt every other move? Trying to think of other moves that characters might have....

Luigi's Tornado?
PK Fire?
Thunder Jolt?
Mega Lemons?
Blade Beam? (limit or otherwise)

Could Wario chomp the side-b? I don't think it could but if anyone has a video or a link that would be helpful!

 

[ぱみゅ]

So it seems to me like we're all in agreement that Bayo is the new pre-patch Sheik and Diddy? (not to the extent that they were, but i hope you know what i mean.)

EDIT: What are the best counterpicks to Bayo? And for what reasons?

The general opinion is that Bayo might not favorable matchups (thought not necessarily losing) against:
Sonic, Sheik, Mario, Diddy, Rosalina, Pikachu, Toon Link.
Then Ryu, Meta Knight, Mega Man, and Ness all seem to have good results against her, though it's still unclear.
I would personally add Villager and Pacman but nothing supports my theory.
I might elaborate on reasons later tonight if you are still insterested, I need to get to work; though, you probably noticed already the pattern of what characters fare well against her.

 

[Octagon]

Oh yeah! Good catch on that one, I think it does interrupt it, I mean, doesn't it interrupt every other move? Trying to think of other moves that characters might have....

Luigi's Tornado?
PK Fire?
Thunder Jolt?
Mega Lemons?
Blade Beam? (limit or otherwise)

Could Wario chomp the side-b? I don't think it could but if anyone has a video or a link that would be helpful!

I'll see if i can test those out later today if i have some time on my wii u.

 

[Sha-Shulk]

I'll see if i can test those out later today if i have some time on my wii u.

Thanks! Those were just a few that i came up with in about 5 minutes, but if anyone else has any data on other moves, that would be great to hear!