Banning Bayonetta in Tournaments

[TheBuzzSaw]

I've seen many people claim that their biggest issue with bayo is the 0-death/touch of death combos.

What do we have to compare it against? Barring traditional gimps, what almost-guaranteed kills are there at 0%?

As far as single hits go, even things like Little Mac's KO punch only start killing above 0% and require that he fill his meter. Same goes for Cloud and his Finishing Touch. Can Roy's special kill at 0%? Can Ike's? I haven't tried it in a while.

What about combos? Anything resembling Bayonetta's hellevator?

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Can Roy's special kill at 0%?

Yes.

Can Ike's?

No.

What about combos? Anything resembling Bayonetta's hellevator

ZSS.

what almost-guaranteed kills are there at 0%?

9s?

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

ZSS.

Details? Link? I know she's a combo queen, but I wasn't aware of any strings that were mostly guaranteed zero-to-deaths of the same caliber as Bayonetta's.

 

[Muster]

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/...ding_to_the_japanese_guide_on_bayos_specials/

Welp. If there was any question before this piece of news came out, it's definitely settled now: she's fundamentally broken.

She's not broken, these moves just don't cause high enough knockback for you to be able to DI them, most if not all characters have moves with these properties.

Sakurai isn't just turning on the "No DI" switch like some people are saying.

 

[Kaiserkami]

Honestly people are just mad because they keep drowning in pools by Bayo players, and that people who put time to learn her end up being better. People can slack off in smash, and some people have more dedication than others with the game.

 

[FallenHero]

I've seen many people claim that their biggest issue with bayo is the 0-death/touch of death combos.

lol that is probably one of the most legitimate issues with her right now though.

Honestly people are just mad because they keep drowning in pools by Bayo players, and that people who put time to learn her end up being better. People can slack off in smash, and some people have more dedication than others with the game.

But there are also plenty of players who can beat Bayonetta and still have a problem with her. It isn't fair to assume that people don't like Bayonetta because they can't beat her.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

The problem with Bayonetta isn't that she's too good or that she's unbeatable because we know that isn't true. My problem with Bayonetta is that you don't need to be a fundamentally strong player to do well with her. Bayonetta is the only character you can play that that forgives for having bad fundamentals and decision making. You can play the character without spacing, baits, reads, mix-ups and still do incredible things. She has no real weakness, and has incredible options in 90% of situations. She can escape combos easier (and generally safer) than any other character and is very difficult to edge guard. Her combos don't change based on fast fall status or floaty status, it's all the same. She's essentially the training wheels of this game.

I don't think it's fair that fundamentally weaker players are placing as well if not better than fundamentally stronger players who have been working with their characters since the game came out. Competitive smash has always been (and should always be) a test of fundamentals. When I look back at any other character in any iteration of smash, no matter how easy or hard to play said character is, the fundamental traits and principles of smash still apply to that character. I don't feel the same way about Bayonetta no matter how hard I try.

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

The problem with Bayonetta isn't that she's too good or that she's unbeatable because we know that isn't true. My problem with Bayonetta is that you don't need to be a fundamentally strong player to do well with her. Bayonetta is the only character you can play that that forgives for having bad fundamentals and decision making. You can play the character without spacing, baits, reads, mix-ups and still do incredible things. She has no real weakness, and has incredible options in 90% of situations. She can escape combos easier (and generally safer) than any other character and is very difficult to edge guard. Her combos don't change based on fast fall status or floaty status, it's all the same. She's essentially the training wheels of this game.

I don't think it's fair that fundamentally weaker players are placing as well if not better than fundamentally stronger players who have been working with their characters since the game came out. Competitive smash has always been (and should always be) a test of fundamentals. When I look back at any other character in any iteration of smash, no matter how easy or hard to play said character is, the fundamental traits and principles of smash still apply to that character. I don't feel the same way about Bayonetta no matter how hard I try.

Pink Fresh much? But seriously you make a strong point. But I do believe Bayonetta has a few weaknesses. I can't believe this is all I can think of but... If you bait Witch Time and her Smash attacks, you can punish her pretty hard. They both have a good bit of ending lag, and will leave her open. Considering how predictable Side B is on the ground, that can be punished if you spot dodge in the second attack. I think that's it.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

Pink Fresh much? But seriously you make a strong point. But I do believe Bayonetta has a few weaknesses. I can't believe this is all I can think of but... If you bait Witch Time and her Smash attacks, you can punish her pretty hard. They both have a good bit of ending lag, and will leave her open. Considering how predictable Side B is on the ground, that can be punished if you spot dodge in the second attack. I think that's it.

Look, I'm not saying that if you play Bayonetta you're fundamentally stunted and probably suck at the game. However I will say that when those fundamentally stunted players pick her up, they get great results. The really scary thing is when a great player with strong fundamentals like Pink Fresh picks her up. If she is so easy to use on a low level and get great results with, then a stronger, smarter player will be able to do so much more damage. Pink Fresh was amazing before Bayonetta, but his results were so much better after. And like I said, she isn't unbeatable, and yes, you can punish her and bait options, but when playing against a competent opponent, that will be very difficult, because as we know, good players use Bayo also.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

y problem with Bayonetta is that you don't need to be a fundamentally strong player to do well with her.

Bayonetta is pretty unique, you need to understand the spacing and timing of her moves before you can even 0 to death a training dummy.

Bayonetta is the only character you can play that that forgives for having bad fundamentals and decision making.

I am not sure I follow.

You can play the character without spacing, baits, reads, mix-ups and still do incredible things.

Uhhh..... no. Not if you play against a good player.

She has no real weakness, and has incredible options in 90% of situations.

Her only truly safe option is bair, all other moves is not perfectly safe at all. Her option are vastly predictable after learning the MU.

She can escape combos easier (and generally safer) than any other character and is very difficult to edge guard.

While Bat Within may make her dodges seem like the best in the game, her dodges possess a lot of ending lag, and several characters, such as Duckhunt and Mewtwo, have dodges that start up just a frame later without being nearly as vulnerable at the end. Additionally, Bat Within is treated as a counterattack that does not strike back; therefore, it does not trigger against grabs, Final Smashes, or unblockable attacks.

er combos don't change based on fast fall status or floaty status, it's all the same.

Actually, falling speed does affect combos.

She's essentially the training wheels of this game.

In theory, everyone is a training wheels in this game. Playing Marth helps me space attacks and counter better.

but when playing against a competent opponent, that will be very difficult, because as we know, good players use Bayo also.

If you are playing against a coompetent opponent, they will be difficulty to beat regardless of characters (sans low tiers).

 

[Megamang]

She has her combos least effected by falling speed and gravity, purposefully programmed into her knockback on specials specifically, to make her combo's better.

The other side of that coin, may be that if they didn't do that, the suspect-to-combo characters would be way worse off vs her, and the escape-combos-easily characters would be popping out left and right, unless they made it inescapable for those characters, which would screw the big bodies even more, etc etc... so it could have been a practical decision. But it looks like one that was just put in to make bayonetta easier to play.


I'm impartial and not in this debate (though as a spectator I hate seeing rando's top8ing with bayonetta and clearly they aren't that good and almost win... some guy almost took out scatt and all I heard was his locals saying he was free before bayo LOL) so don't respond with debate stuff to me, I just wanted to explain what we know about how bayo treats gravity.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

She has her combos least effected by falling speed and gravity, purposefully programmed into her knockback on specials specifically, to make her combo's better.

Gravity doesn't affect her combo, but I believe fall speed do.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

Bayonetta is pretty unique, you need to understand the spacing and timing of her moves before you can even 0 to death a training dummy.
I am not sure I follow.
Uhhh..... no. Not if you play against a good player.

Her only truly safe option is bair, all other moves is not perfectly safe at all. Her option are vastly predictable after learning the MU.

While Bat Within may make her dodges seem like the best in the game, her dodges possess a lot of ending lag, and several characters, such as Duckhunt and Mewtwo, have dodges that start up just a frame later without being nearly as vulnerable at the end. Additionally, Bat Within is treated as a counterattack that does not strike back; therefore, it does not trigger against grabs, Final Smashes, or unblockable attacks.

Actually, falling speed does affect combos.

In theory, everyone is a training wheels in this game. Playing Marth helps me space attacks and counter better.

If you are playing against a coompetent opponent, they will be difficulty to beat regardless of characters (sans low tiers).

Oh no you have to practice stuff before you get a 0 to death. How tragic. The fact that I can eat 30% off of one opening at any percent (when getting hit by a pretty hard to punish move) is pretty ridiculous on it's own.

Don't lie to us. Bair is safe, DABK on shield is safe, Witch Twist is frame 4 with 3 frames of cool-down, so I suppose in theory it's punishable but it's pretty close to unpunishable. Not to mention she can just force approaches with her bullet arts. Nothing unsafe about throwing out your nair and getting a little chip damage.

Wow, it's great to know that Bayo can't avoid my Final Smash! Seriously though, the fact that she has that combo breaker helps her out a lot. Don't deny that Bat Within has saved your skin a few times because someone mistimed their confirm. I have lost tournament matches because of Bat Within because I was a frame off on one of my punishes.

My mistake, gravity and weight aren't taken into account. The original point still stands, she has to adjust very little if she wants to continue a combo, most of the time, the same combo will work on the same characters. Very little adjustment is needed.

If you can play with Marth and net the same results as you have been with Bayo you can make that statement. Marth however, actually has pretty bad frame data and obvious weaknesses. Also I have no idea how he helps you counter better when it comes out a frame later than Bayo's, has 13 more frames of cooldown, and won't guarantee you a kill when someone hits you at 50%.

I can't believe I actually have to clarify this statement, but I'll do it just for you <3: Yes, a competent opponent will be difficult to beat regardless of their character's place in the tier list. However, with her toolkit, Bayonetta becomes much more difficult to play against than 95% of the cast.

 

[Greward]

Except bayonetta is actually too good.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

The fact that I can eat 30% off of one opening at any percent (when getting hit by a pretty hard to punish move) is pretty ridiculous on it's own.

That is something to note in the MU.

Don't lie to us. Bair is safe, DABK on shield is safe, Witch Twist is frame 4 with 3 frames of cool-down, so I suppose in theory it's punishable but it's pretty close to unpunishable. Not to mention she can just force approaches with her bullet arts. Nothing unsafe about throwing out your nair and getting a little chip damage

Nice, 3 safe moves. All her moves all 100% safe I suppose.
Projectile (albeit, BA aren't projectiles) camping are always pretty safe, nothing unusual.

Wow, it's great to know that Bayo can't avoid my Final Smash!

And grabs.

the fact that she has that combo breaker helps her out a lot.

It also hurts that it is the laggiest dodges if you read it.

I have lost tournament matches because of Bat Within because I was a frame off on one of my punishes.

Are you sure a character like Mewtwo couldn't have dodge it? Batwithin activate on 1 - 4 frames.
It is completely possible that you hit the frame 3 Batwithin.

Marth however, actually has pretty bad frame data and obvious weaknesses.

Marth has better framedata than Bayonetta. Marth's framedata is actually pretty good, fast startup but a lot of endlag.

Also I have no idea how he helps you counter better when it comes out a frame later than Bayo's,

Marth's counter activates on the same frame as Bayonetta and doesn't decay.
EDIT: OOPS. Frame 6. But if anything, doesn't this help me learn to time a counter even more?

However, with her toolkit, Bayonetta becomes much more difficult to play against than 95% of the cast.

This is your own problem, this is a mere opinion and is never proven.

 

[Megamang]

If the bayonetta uses the correct moves, she absolutely has better frame data lol.


Dtilt machine gun alone makes everyone back off in shield, which is silly when you have previous characters like ZSS with a similar archetype, they weren't allowed an absurd poking dtilt that has that crazy a FAF. They both low profile lots of of attacks, but Bayo gets not only to be much much safer, but she has guns if they retreat, and an actual real hit confirms into many things. M2k explains how he has had the dtilt confirm to death from neutral twice in one game.

Off a safe poke.


Or, lets compare dolphin slash as an OOS/quick button punish, to Witch Twist. Compare the hitboxes.

Oh, or his counter FAF compared to hers. Which totally makes sense that his counter is slower and has more lag, since he is only outrewarded in almost any situation, including offstage where his counter shines, because his spike isn't as good...

Don't say that her frame data is bad, it currently isn't. An adjustment on a few moves, and she could have that weakness. Right now, she has a f4 ground option that powers through pretty much everything if you even try and get near her, and confirms into death or huge damage. That is amazing frame data, some of the best.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

If the bayonetta uses the correct moves, she absolutely has better frame data lol.

Hmmm.... no. Aside from specials, all of Marth's attack have quicker or equal startup than hers while she has slightly less endlag on ground moves (sans Smashes) and a lot less endlag on aerials.

Dtilt machine gun alone makes everyone back off in shield

Dtilt BA is still quite weak and deal no hitstun.
Having BA isn't exactly a big strength, it is pretty much a weaker and quicker version of Fox laser.

Off a safe poke.

Dtilt can be punished if spaced closely and comboing with a far dtilt is harder.

Don't say that her frame data is bad, it currently isn't. An adjustment on a few moves, and she could have that weakness. Right now, she has a f4 ground option that powers through pretty much everything if you even try and get near her, and confirms into death or huge damage. That is amazing frame data, some of the best.

Her framedata is bad. lol.
She has only one frame 4 move, and it is surprisingly short horizontally. Witch Twist also get her extra landing lag, and is useless on shield.
All her other moves has at least startup of 7 frames with Jab being frame 9.
Want good framedata? Look at Sheik, Little Mac, Mario, etc.

 

[Megamang]

I meant literally rapid dtilt machine gun, the thing that almost no one else but her can do.

And yea, you literally did what I said not to do. If you just count all the frames and compare averages, it seems like she has bad frame data.

But in any reasonable situation she has a counter at frame 5, a frame 5 up B that has an insane hitbox that almost no character can reliably beat. Her aerials aren't exactly slow, and while they aren't fast, they are good for landing hits since their landing lag is pretty low. Also, and by far a huge deal in terms of trapping her, her airdodge gets her out of traps f1, a characteristic only she has. And getting in position to punish the airdodge is hard, because she can ****ing divekick and ABK everywhere anyways, and then she can move after her specials, even activate her counter to KILL YOU for trapping her.

If you do the math on proper situations and really consider her options, and chart out what can happen when considering human interaction, she doesn't have a frame data problem she can be reliably punished for. In certain situations yes, but more often than not she is holding most of the 'frame data' cards in terms of trapping you, escaping your trap, or punishing you for even trying to trap her.

But yea, keep talking about her slow jab... but thats not what frame data is about.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

I meant literally rapid dtilt machine gun, the thing that almost no one else but her can do.

Ryu has two jabs and tilts. BA aren't that good.

And yea, you literally did what I said not to do. If you just count all the frames and compare averages, it seems like she has bad frame data.

Because she does!

But in any reasonable situation she has a counter at frame 5, a frame 5 up B that has an insane hitbox that almost no character can reliably beat.

I heard Rosa dair beat Witch Twist. Luma's uair is frame 3 and has OHKO potential with rage (albeit, so does Witch Twist, lol rage).
If you can the visualized hitboxes, you can see it doesn't cover her on the side and below her.
Counter is just a counter, you have to have a hard read to Witch Time someone. It is completely baitable, and will stale regardless if it activates.

 

[Megamang]

Ok... I can see you aren't going to address my point. Yes, there are exceptions in the cast to the things I said, thats what makes unique characters. I'm not going to get trapped into posting page long posts when you just pick out random stuff.


*f1 airdodges away*
*Hopes you get bayonetta in all your pools*

 

[SoccerStar9001]

I wanted to address your points, but I had to cut myself off. Let's continue.

Also, and by far a huge deal in terms of trappingher,her airdodge gets her out of traps f1, a characteristic only she has.

Hee air dodges are also the laggiest air dodge in the game.

And getting in position to punish the airdodge is hard, because she can ****ing divekick and ABK everywhere anyways

Dude, it is the laggiest air dodge in the game with 9 frames of endlag (most only has 5). Divekick and ABK has 8 and 7 frames of startup so it would be better for her to just throw another air dodge.

she can move after her specials, even activate her counter to KILL YOU for trapping her.

If you trapped her properly, she can't counter.

If you do the math on proper situations and really consider her options, and chart out what can happen when considering human interaction, she doesn't have a frame data problem she can be reliably punished for. In certain situations yes, but more often than not she is holding most of the 'frame data' cards in terms of trapping you, escaping your trap, or punishing you for even trying to trap her.

Sound like paranoia. Bayonetta won Pound.
All of these are true on certain scenario, but if you end up in those scenario, that's your problem.

But yea, keep talking about her slow jab... but thats not what frame data is about.

Her jab is one part of her bad framedata.
Framedata is pretty important in the neutral, Sheik wasn't considered the best character for nothing.

 

[rules94]

The problem with Bayonetta isn't that she's too good or that she's unbeatable because we know that isn't true. My problem with Bayonetta is that you don't need to be a fundamentally strong player to do well with her. Bayonetta is the only character you can play that that forgives for having bad fundamentals and decision making. You can play the character without spacing, baits, reads, mix-ups and still do incredible things. She has no real weakness, and has incredible options in 90% of situations. She can escape combos easier (and generally safer) than any other character and is very difficult to edge guard. Her combos don't change based on fast fall status or floaty status, it's all the same. She's essentially the training wheels of this game.

I don't think it's fair that fundamentally weaker players are placing as well if not better than fundamentally stronger players who have been working with their characters since the game came out. Competitive smash has always been (and should always be) a test of fundamentals. When I look back at any other character in any iteration of smash, no matter how easy or hard to play said character is, the fundamental traits and principles of smash still apply to that character. I don't feel the same way about Bayonetta no matter how hard I try.

"My problem with Bayonetta is that you don't need to be a fundamentally strong player to do well with her."

What? The real problem is the people who doesnt know how to deal with her..

"You can play the character without spacing, baits, reads, mix-ups and still do incredible things. She has no real weakness, and has incredible options in 90% of situations. "

Really? do you think that every bayonetta player is ********? every high level player do these, so this is out of sense, you can play without spacing because she is not a spacing character..., reads? how can she make those combos in high level play then? spaming? that's the opponent fault.. real weakness? she can be kill very early, her frame data is bad, like her smashes, 90%? which cases? tell me examples

"She can escape combos easier (and generally safer) than any other character and is very difficult to edge guard. Her combos don't change based on fast fall status or floaty status, it's all the same. "

Sorry but that's not true, she can be combo hard.. whats your prove? you guess it?

"I don't think it's fair that fundamentally weaker players are placing as well if not better than fundamentally stronger players who have been working with their characters since the game came out. "

Insert first answer.

Sorry but most of this is not true, you are talking like she's the pickup win character but she's not, the combos are hard to do, some of them you have to be precise, and to get them work propertly you need an oponent with pour DI fundamentals like most of the for Glory/Fun players, stop being a lier and learn the character, please captain falcon!!!

She is not a pickup win,aghhhhh stop saying that!! She is difficult to pick, however in high level play she is highly rewarded, in high level play!! not casual play, most of us want the easy way to deal with her, the nerfs, and that pathetic in my opinion.

I think that's she is hated in mid because she's good, hard to deal for mostly for mid-players and the most important the winner of the ballot.
Long live to the queen of salt.

 

[Charoite]

Some of you need to take a step back in their arguments to ban bayoneta , arguments about how she is "easy to be good, or she makes worse players to perform good against mid-players or low level players " aren't good because we're talking about the highest level of play, we dont care if mid level bayo is too good or too easy, if your region have reasons for ban bayo because she is too good around mid or low level play then so be, but dont try to make these arguments as "objective", we judge characters around top level play, because if we judge around mid level or low level, then our tier list became meaningless because we dont chart characters because how easy or hard to play they are, because otherwise wouldn't have be nerfed, because she requires skill, to play at top level, she was not menacing in mid level play

 

[[BROF]]

I still think that she as a character does nothing but terrible things to the community. She is bad for both players and spectators, but banning her is too much. Just wait until she gets nerfed, and if she doesnt then it doesnt matter.
Enjoy Smash 4: Bayonetta edition until Smash 5 comes out and people drop this game like a hot potato.

Real tak though, if a well deserved nerf doesnt come around just pick Bayonetta up.
Fight fire with fire, and burn this entire community to the ground.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Enjoy Smash 4: Bayonetta edition until Smash 5 comes out and people drop this game like a hot potato.

This sounds awfully like something Melee elitist said.
Honestly, the one doing terrible things to the community is the community itself.

 

[Dr.Megaman]

No, Git Gud. This is coming from a Mac main.

 

[MrNasty]

There was not much of a problem when she was not ranked, I think it's just in everyone's head

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

There was not much of a problem when she was not ranked, I think it's just in everyone's head

People are freaking out because of the (DI'able) 0-death combos. Bayonetta has very little otherwise. Witch Time and a good recovery. That's it. She's definitely #1 as of now, but when people adapt, she'll go down a bit, I'm sure. Aka:It really is in everyone's head.

 

[Respect38]

Enjoy Smash 4: Bayonetta edition until Smash 5 comes out and people drop this game like a hot potato.

That sounds like a pretty terrible idea, considering that nobody wants this game to become another Brawl situation. Especially considering the Smash 4 for the NX rumor, which, if true, means that we might not get to a Sma5h for a decent amount of time.

I'm confident that she will be nerfed, though, considering that the dev team has paid some attention to the competitive community in the past. The worry is that it will be a slap of a wrist, but enough of one such that people will permanently defend Bayonetta [which, depending on the extent of the nerf, I wouldn't argue is unreasonable, just unfortunate for the game for what Nintendo has done to Sm4sh] from being banned, causing the game to leak players to some extent as long as Bayonetta is high/top tier.

 

[[BROF]]

I was going to add the bit about the possible NX port about how we might get the ICs back.
Could they be the Bayonetta saviors? But then they might end up breaking the game even more.
Is it worth it fighting a pest with an ever bigger one? Probably not.
Besides given the no regrab state and the removal of wobbling, I dont think ICs would amount to much in Smash4. If desynchs still worked they would probably be the best and most skill-based character in the whole game though, but wishing upon rumors is never a good idea.

Also I dont think the Smash4 community could handle the Ice Climbers. Most of the melee community still has issues with them.

 

[Nekoo]

I love how people who are for the ban are like beating Bayonetta is the hardest thing in the world. When it's hard, she's not balanced at all and need some fixes but they are over reacting the match-up...

But what baffle me the most are the people who are against the bayonetta ban. Especially Bayonetta main who are like ''My character is too Easy to beat''

Like

Yes. I draw this thing ONLY for this post. Yes i love Jojo. Yes you don't care.

When their character have like one of the most wonderful and powerful toolkit.

Since those discussion are going in circle...
We really need a kind of ''Main post/Guide'' with every information to beat her for the time being.
Like making a post with the DI sheet from last page, Beefy Smash Dood information , Kill % etc...
​

 

[SoccerStar9001]

But what baffle me the most are the people who are against the bayonetta ban. Especially Bayonetta main who are like ''My character is too Easy to beat''

I wasn't saying that. Well.... technically too easy to beat for a supposing "broken character".
We all know Bayonetta is pretty good, but we have yet to see the meta actually revolving around her like Meta Knight and Fox.

That Roy picture is pretty nice.

 

[Sha-Shulk]

Shouldn't we compile the anti-Bayonetta strategies and good DI'ing angles into one thread? Wouldn't that be easier? And maybe a thread discussing nerfs/balances (although that thread might not amount to much). Or what about a thread discussing MU information?

or do these threads already exist?

 

[Funbot28]

Shouldn't we compile the anti-Bayonetta strategies and good DI'ing angles into one thread? Wouldn't that be easier? And maybe a thread discussing nerfs/balances (although that thread might not amount to much). Or what about a thread discussing MU information?

or do these threads already exist?

All this could be found and stated in the Bayo boards

 

[soniczx123]

Umebura 22 just ended and there wasn't a single Bayo in top 8.

Sonic won the tournament with Olimar in 2nd place followed up by Diddy in 3rd.

9B also lost to Kamemushi () 2-0

Greward

 

[Sha-Shulk]

Umebura 22 just ended and there wasn't a single Bayo in top 8.

Sonic won the tournament with Olimar in 2nd place followed up by Diddy in 3rd.

9B also lost to Kamemushi () 2-0

Greward

These kinds of posts don't really mean much, imo.

 

[blackghost]

Oh no you have to practice stuff before you get a 0 to death. How tragic. The fact that I can eat 30% off of one opening at any percent (when getting hit by a pretty hard to punish move) is pretty ridiculous on it's own.

Don't lie to us. Bair is safe, DABK on shield is safe, Witch Twist is frame 4 with 3 frames of cool-down, so I suppose in theory it's punishable but it's pretty close to unpunishable. Not to mention she can just force approaches with her bullet arts. Nothing unsafe about throwing out your nair and getting a little chip damage.

Wow, it's great to know that Bayo can't avoid my Final Smash! Seriously though, the fact that she has that combo breaker helps her out a lot. Don't deny that Bat Within has saved your skin a few times because someone mistimed their confirm. I have lost tournament matches because of Bat Within because I was a frame off on one of my punishes.

If you can play with Marth and net the same results as you have been with Bayo you can make that statement. Marth however, actually has pretty bad frame data and obvious weaknesses. Also I have no idea how he helps you counter better when it comes out a frame later than Bayo's, has 13 more frames of cooldown, and won't guarantee you a kill when someone hits you at 50%.

I can't believe I actually have to clarify this statement, but I'll do it just for you <3: Yes, a competent opponent will be difficult to beat regardless of their character's place in the tier list. However, with her toolkit, Bayonetta becomes much more difficult to play against than 95% of the cast.

DABK isnt safe on all chracter thats a fact.
SEVERAL characters can make you eat 30 percent off one mistake: ganon, ryu, zss, ect.
bat within is a massive double edged sword once you lab it you can crete unique resets and combos that only work on her also if you make her batwithin offstage she can kill herself. no other airdodge will do that.
did you actually say bayonetta doesn't have bad frame data??? lol.
shiek is difficult to play against so are all the other high tier characters hence why they are top tier. thats a bad argument.
japanese regional just had no bayonettas present and 9b was 2-0 by a megaman. this chaarcter in high level play isnt nearly as consistent as shiek and at mvg the winner said her combos could be di which is why he won.

 

[Broqan]

Umebura 22 just ended and there wasn't a single Bayo in top 8.

Sonic won the tournament with Olimar in 2nd place followed up by Diddy in 3rd.

9B also lost to Kamemushi () 2-0

Greward

Doesn't matter cause reasons.

 

[David Viran]

Doesn't matter cause reasons.

No Japanese player is consistent in Japan. There's constant upsets over there. Aba didn't make top 8, komo got 13th losing to a Marth at a different tournament just recently as well.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Everyone is strong there. Its no different then the Street Fighter arcade scene in japan. You will have Daigo lose to arcade randoms because the average power level is so damn high compared to the US.