Banning Bayonetta in Tournaments

[Zult]

The problem with some regions instating a ban and some not is that it creates completely different metagames from region to region. This is why Bayonetta is not good for the competitive life of the game as it stands right now. You can argue all day about whether or not she's broken but at the end of the day if her presence continues to divide the community like this, that's the beginning of the end for Smash 4 as a competitive title. I personally think she isn't broken but I also think she needs to be toned down to more reasonable level.

Eh, we'll see. Next patch will be interesting.

 

[FallenHero]

I feel like every few months something new pops up that just divides this community even more. For a long time now, I have really been spending more time arguing or reading arguments about this game rather than actually playing the game. I also feel like she should not be banned until at least September this year if she isn't nerfed or if something is discovered that makes Bayonetta not as good as she is now.

Eh, we'll see. Next patch will be interesting.

I think we will get another patch, but I can't see any more than 2-3 patches after the next one TBH so I hope they can do something about Bayonetta in the next patch that won't just be a very insignificant change.

 

[Shaya]

There definitely was a bit of a pro-diddy ban theme going.
Most people agreed that up throw up air KOing at 50% sent him way over the top and most players were open and honest when they said 'maining him until he gets nerfed or banned' or in some cases 'not playing the game until Diddy gets nerfed or banned'. At the same time it took 2 months for the general populace to realise Diddy had up throw up air KOing at 50% (due to Apex; but it was already in heavy usage in Diddy dominated scenes like West Coast).

This was before we knew patches were a thing. No one ended up banning Diddy (from what I'm aware of), but all the building blocks were there.
Most people agreed that the character was likely to kill the game, at least in hindsight.

To be fair - brand new game, every character is getting focus because we don't know what the game has to offer. People weren't focused on Diddy like Bayonetta has been the focus until Apex, and that's when things started getting heavy quickly and within a month of it we got a balance patch. I do know quite a few names who threw a fit when there were diddy ban suggestions made (M2K being one, but so were basically everyone who played Diddy).

Many people say "freefall after Up-special will break her concept as combo character". About this,I have an idea. Up-special should be changed to "if it hits, bayo can do next move.If it doesn't hit, bayo go on to freefall". This doesn't break her combo at all. But is this change possible in ssb4 game system? It's yes because Ike's side-special have this property.

I don't mind some well thought out discussion of possible balance tweaks - it'll be interesting to see what they actually decide to do.

I think that this change would require that it only is the second up-b that puts you into free fall, as otherwise this would significantly hurt her recovery capabilities.
But, if they want to Little-Macify her a bit by making her shortfalls much more glaring while maintaining her current strengths, then yeah, maybe. "Should a character who can take you off the top or side from nearly any percent also have a great recovery and ability to throw out high-reward moves with little risk?"

 

[Delta Chae]

Eh, we'll see. Next patch will be interesting.

I truly hope that they don't gut her combo game, otherwise it would no longer be Bayonetta. I really don't mind the rewards she gets for winning neutral. My problem is that those rewards are not proportional to how hard she has to work in order to get them.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Balance tweak suggestions?

Heavily reduce her aerial acceleration and max aerial speed after using her second Up B. I'm talking "make D3's aerial abilities look good" slow.

Part of the problem is that she can easily avoid the lag from using multiple specials by easily moving to the ledge. It messes with the risk/rewards. If you make that rather difficult to do, the risk/reward starts tilting back towards a more reasonable level. Bayo can potentially deal a lot of damage/kill early, in exchange if she screws up she's almost guaranteed to be facing equal retaliation. Shouldn't really reduce her recovery abilities.

The change would also slightly reduce her killing potential: she can't carry you all the way to the very upper corners and make it back. She can go straight up off of the top while on stage, go for a side blastzone, go diagonally while still over stage... but can't go diagonally all the way off stage.

On top of that, probably knock a few units of weight off of her. Just to further emphasize "Hey, this is supposed to be a high risk/high reward" character.

 

[TheRealSkid]

Balance tweak suggestions?

Heavily reduce her aerial acceleration and max aerial speed after using her second Up B. I'm talking "make D3's aerial abilities look good" slow.

Part of the problem is that she can easily avoid the lag from using multiple specials by easily moving to the ledge. It messes with the risk/rewards. If you make that rather difficult to do, the risk/reward starts tilting back towards a more reasonable level. Bayo can potentially deal a lot of damage/kill early, in exchange if she screws up she's almost guaranteed to be facing equal retaliation. Shouldn't really reduce her recovery abilities.

The change would also slightly reduce her killing potential: she can't carry you all the way to the very upper corners and make it back. She can go straight up off of the top while on stage, go for a side blastzone, go diagonally while still over stage... but can't go diagonally all the way off stage.

On top of that, probably knock a few units of weight off of her. Just to further emphasize "Hey, this is supposed to be a high risk/high reward" character.

Agreed. Maybe making her a little taller can make her more susceptible to combos or something idk, and perhaps lowering say the range of some attacks may help.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Heavily reduce her aerial acceleration and max aerial speed after using her second Up B. I'm talking "make D3's aerial abilities look good" slow.

But DDD has a ridiculous recovery move, if you do that to Bayonetta, it hurts her recovery.
Really, the only thing Bayonetta needs is heavily increased landing lag from using specials.

Go for the ledge after using up all her specials could end in:
Strong punishment on Bayonetta
or
Bayonetta try to avoid the punish, but failed to catch the ledge, leading to death
or
Punisher mess up and Bayonetta is safe

 

[Delta Chae]

But DDD has a ridiculous recovery move, if you do that to Bayonetta, it hurts her recovery.
Really, the only thing Bayonetta needs is heavily increased landing lag from using specials.

Go for the ledge after using up all her specials could end in:
Strong punishment on Bayonetta
or
Bayonetta try to avoid the punish, but failed to catch the ledge, leading to death
or
Punisher mess up and Bayonetta is safe

You realize that most of the time after using her 2nd up-b she'll be on the ledge anyway right? Yeah, on paper this change might worsen her recovery but in practice it wouldn't change much unless the Bayonetta player carried their opponent all the way to side blast line and I think most people would be ok with her losing the ability to do that.

The problem with going for ledge is that it's an easy option to avoid lag. Also: it's not likely that the opponent will be in any sort of position to punish Bayonetta for going to the ledge as they will likely either still be in the air, just landing, at center stage, or off stage. The only position that the opponent might be able to punish going to ledge from is center stage and since this isn't Melee and wavedashing and run-cancelling aren't things, getting from center stage and stopping to position yourself for the punish is no easy feat especially because of the auto-sweetspot mechanics of the ledges in Smash 4.

None of the changes suggested would severely hamper Bayonetta's combo game, just force players to be a little smarter when picking their options for combos. This would nerf Bayonetta in a way similar to the Diddy Kong nerfs. She would still be a viable character but players would have a get a little more creative with the choices they make.

It's either this or do something to make her neutral worse so that how hard she has to work in neutral is more proportional to the reward she gets for winning. Honestly I don't think people take issue with her combos so much as the fact that she does not have to work very hard in order to open them (Relatively speaking of course).

 

[SoccerStar9001]

You realize that most of the time after using her 2nd up-b she'll be on the ledge anyway right?

Not all the time, she could be an ABK away from it. Remember she bounce off walls when she ABK into it? If she had reduced air speed, she might miss the ledge.

it's not likely that the opponent will be in any sort of position to punish Bayonetta for going to the ledge as they will likely either still be in the air, just landing, at center stage, or off stage.

If they can't punish Bayonetta for going for the ledge, reducing her air speed after UpB 2 won't change that. Bayonetta will just use her combos near the ledge so she can go for it later, or just land normally.

Bayonetta's air speed is 0.97 (36-38th), Dedede is 0.63 (58th). What do you propose to change her air speed to?

Most of the time, Bayonetta can't go for the ledge or is easily punished for trying to. The only real time is when she is high up, but going for ledge without specials poses a risk of missing the ledge if the opponent is nearby.
The way to weaken her, is to increase the landing lag after using specials. Bayonetta will be force to use her normal more since her specials will be punished harder.

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

The thing I find different about Bayonetta versus previously labeled boring play styles is that I think battling Bayonetta is much more interactive compared to, say, a campy Sonic or a Customs Villager. When approaching Sonic, he holds all the cards. When you whiff against Sonic, he can punish you from halfway across the stage. When Villager plants that sapling, you're not just being forced to make the first move, you're throwing yourself into a specifically volatile situation. There are similarities to what it's like to fight Bayo, but just the fact that you CAN dance around with her and jockey for position makes a significant difference to me. If you bait out a Witch Time, you can get a free punish, but if you bait out a Spin Dash from Sonic you get... ???

Nothing. Sadly, Sonic's Spin Dash is hard to punish. But you have a very valid point. Bayo is definitely fun to fight for me. I love the combo's that aren't a 0-Death combo. Every time I face her I don't think "UGHH BAYONETTA" I think "Yay, I get to test my DI now". It sounds stupid but it's true. There's something you could get better at when you face a Bayonetta: DI, Perfect Shielding, timing your spot dodge.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

If we're proposing balance changes, one thing I think would be interesting to see is increasing grounded Witch Twist startup from F4 > F8. The extra frames come from her jumpsquat, which is 4 frames according to KH. So grounded Witch Twist or frame perfect jump > air Witch Twist would have the same frame data. Either way, it reduces the potency of Witch Twist OOS and means her fastest grounded options are dtilt/grab at F7. Bam, CQC boxing weakness, although she can still space with dem legs.

Extra landing lag after using midair specials probably wouldn't go amiss either, if only to further emphasize that as an intended design weakness. Actually, come to think of it, if she misses the finisher of a ladder combo against someone floaty, can she fastfall and recover from that lag in time to defend herself from a counterattack? If so, that probably needs addressing. Not even counting Witch Time being used to ignore the lag here.

Additional ending lag on Witch Twist/Afterburner Kick in all cases except on hit (to make sure she can still combo) could make her think twice about zipping around everywhere but I don't feel comfortable suggesting exact numbers in these cases.

Lastly, do Bullet Arts on her aerials extend the landing lag at all? I can't remember if they do or not. If they don't, that's something that could be done as well.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

If we're proposing balance changes, one thing I think would be interesting to see is increasing grounded Witch Twist startup from F4 > F8. The extra frames come from her jumpsquat, which is 4 frames according to KH. So grounded Witch Twist or frame perfect jump > air Witch Twist would have the same frame data. Either way, it reduces the potency of Witch Twist OOS and means her fastest grounded options are dtilt/grab at F7. Bam, CQC boxing weakness, although she can still space with dem legs.

Extra landing lag after using midair specials probably wouldn't go amiss either, if only to further emphasize that as an intended design weakness. Actually, come to think of it, if she misses the finisher of a ladder combo against someone floaty, can she fastfall and recover from that lag in time to defend herself from a counterattack? If so, that probably needs addressing. Not even counting Witch Time being used to ignore the lag here.

Additional ending lag on Witch Twist/Afterburner Kick in all cases except on hit (to make sure she can still combo) could make her think twice about zipping around everywhere but I don't feel comfortable suggesting exact numbers in these cases.

Lastly, do Bullet Arts on her aerials extend the landing lag at all? I can't remember if they do or not. If they don't, that's something that could be done as well.

1. Not much problem with increased startup on grounded Witch Twist.
2. Using Witch Time does stale it though, so it isn't a very reliable option. But I think increasing the extra landing lag wouldn't hurt too much.
3. Honestly, I'd disagree with increasing the ending lag on whiffed WT and ABK. Increasing the landing lag will be more than enough to ensure more careful usage, making those move laggier hurts her recovery and her already sub par mobility.
4. Probably not, but using BA does increase the end lag of the move. But honestly, adding more landing lag to her aerials is unnecessary if they do increase the extra landing lag as she need some reliable options.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

1. Not much problem with increased startup on grounded Witch Twist.
2. Using Witch Time does stale it though, so it isn't a very reliable option. But I think increasing the extra landing lag wouldn't hurt too much.
3. Honestly, I'd disagree with increasing the ending lag on whiffed WT and ABK. Increasing the landing lag will be more than enough to ensure more careful usage, making those move laggier hurts her recovery and her already sub par mobility.
4. Probably not, but using BA does increase the end lag of the move. But honestly, adding more landing lag to her aerials is unnecessary if they do increase the extra landing lag as she need some reliable options.

I know Witch Time stales on whiff, I was just making the point that even if you ignore the ability to use it to bypass accrued landing lag, I'm not sure if floaty characters can get down fast enough to punish. (This is something I'm really interested in finding out now...)

The rest was more geared towards nerfing her neutral and getaway. I'm of the opinion that even when her neutral is described as "bad", it's only bad compared to the likes of Sheik, Rosalina, etc. who have literally top-tier neutral games. Compared to the middle of the cast and below, is it really that bad?

Also this was just brainstorming in general, not intended as a comprehensive list of "apply all these things at once."

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

If Witch Time had the same sort of cooldown that Zelda's Phantom Knight down B had, it would force her to use it more carefully, as her ability to do so would actually be locked for a couple of seconds afterwards.

Not sure why only Zelda's down b had this sort of property. Seems like it would be useful to tack on to otherwise troublesome moves.

Witch Twist definitely needs some more startup lag.

RCO lag added to her Up B and Side B to make her landing options more punishable.

More landing lag on Side B divekick version for the same reason.

Will look at her other stuff later~

 

[ParanoidDrone]

If Witch Time had the same sort of cooldown that Zelda's Phantom Knight down B had, it would force her to use it more carefully, as her ability to do so would actually be locked for a couple of seconds afterwards.

Not sure why only Zelda's down b had this sort of property. Seems like it would be useful to tack on to otherwise troublesome moves.

Witch Twist definitely needs some more startup lag.

RCO lag added to her Up B and Side B to make her landing options more punishable.

More landing lag on Side B divekick version for the same reason.

Will look at her other stuff later~

Kirby has a hidden cooldown attached to Luma Shot when he copies Rosalina. Although I thought Zelda's only really applied when the Phantom got destroyed.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Kirby has a hidden cooldown attached to Luma Shot when he copies Rosalina. Although I thought Zelda's only really applied when the Phantom got destroyed.

Double-checked, and yeah, you are right.

Either way, having such a timer after Witch Time would remove her option to spam it for a couple of seconds. Which not only would help somewhat in high level play, but would also help immensely in low level play for players who don't know how to approach Bayonetta otherwise.

Thought of Zelda because the purple smoke she has after using Phantom Knight would be a nice indicator for both players to know when she could use Witch Time again.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Double-checked, and yeah, you are right.

Either way, having such a timer after Witch Time would remove her option to spam it for a couple of seconds. Which not only would help somewhat in high level play, but would also help immensely in low level play for players who don't know how to approach Bayonetta otherwise.

Thought of Zelda

Two additional points in favor of a cooldown on Witch Time:

• The existing clock hand could be repurposed as an easy-to-read timer until Witch Time is available again.
• In Bayonetta, spamming dodge repeatedly will eventually result in Bayonetta becoming more or less helpless for a few seconds. (I think she does the splits or something while shooting her guns.) Since dodging is what activates Witch Time in her games, there's precedent.

Not completely sold on the idea in Smash, but it has merit.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Not all the time, she could be an ABK away from it. Remember she bounce off walls when she ABK into it? If she had reduced air speed, she might miss the ledge.


If they can't punish Bayonetta for going for the ledge, reducing her air speed after UpB 2 won't change that. Bayonetta will just use her combos near the ledge so she can go for it later, or just land normally.

Bayonetta's air speed is 0.97 (36-38th), Dedede is 0.63 (58th). What do you propose to change her air speed to?

Most of the time, Bayonetta can't go for the ledge or is easily punished for trying to. The only real time is when she is high up, but going for ledge without specials poses a risk of missing the ledge if the opponent is nearby.
The way to weaken her, is to increase the landing lag after using specials. Bayonetta will be force to use her normal more since her specials will be punished harder.

I was thinking like, halving her air speed and her air acceleration. So 0.50 would be pretty close to what I was thinking. I also meant her fall speed: as in she falls slower. Gives the opponent more time to get into position.

Landing lag I don't feel is the way to go. She already has a decent amount there, she just needs to be forced to suffer it more.

Adding more start up to Witch Twitch would be good, but I don't really know what kind of numbers I'd want there. Probably start with F6, see how that plays out, make it F8 if necessary.

 

[Zult]

I was thinking like, halving her air speed and her air acceleration. So 0.50 would be pretty close to what I was thinking. I also meant her fall speed: as in she falls slower. Gives the opponent more time to get into position.

Landing lag I don't feel is the way to go. She already has a decent amount there, she just needs to be forced to suffer it more.

Adding more start up to Witch Twitch would be good, but I don't really know what kind of numbers I'd want there. Probably start with F6, see how that plays out, make it F8 if necessary.

Frame 8 lmfao.

Also I don't think in all of the patches that they have ever nerfed the start up of a move. Correct me if I'm wrong.

People already punish me while landing after a combo, and Puff can get a rest easily if I drop a combo and I don't go to the ledge. I wouldn't add more than 10 frames making it go from a max of 40 frames of landing lag to 50. Up air should be slightly nerfed in knockback. Slightly. Missed dive kicks (the ones that hit the ground) should have a bit more lag imo.

I can see any of these happening if she gets a nerf. Not some magical super nerf making her bottom tier like some of you are hoping. If she were to get nerfed any harder than the above she may get some buffs somewhere else. (i.e Sheik with down smash and Metaknight with forward air).

But no nerfs will stop the crying. Not until she's removed from the game lol.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Chill on the salt content there.

Diddy Kong pre-patch was starting to have discussions about him being banned (as pointed out by Shaya). They stopped right after he got nerfed and he's still a top 5 character most likely.

If Bayo gets nerfed to a point where she's reasonable, people will stop wanting her banned. It won't matter where she is within the tier list.

(Also in 1.0.4 Rosalina's Dtilt got a start up nerf. 4-8 -> 5-8)

 

[Nekoo]

I think that people should remove their Google bias.

In each side.

Like seriously.

 

[Zult]

Chill on the salt content there.

Diddy Kong pre-patch was starting to have discussions about him being banned (as pointed out by Shaya). They stopped right after he got nerfed and he's still a top 5 character most likely.

If Bayo gets nerfed to a point where she's reasonable, people will stop wanting her banned. It won't matter where she is within the tier list.

(Also in 1.0.4 Rosalina's Dtilt got a start up nerf. 4-8 -> 5-8)

Sonic also go nerfed and is still hated. Not a valid argument.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Hated =/= wanting to be banned. Two different criteria, two different measuring points. People absolutely hated Sheik before the last patch... but nobody was really calling for her to be banned. She wasn't at that line. Some people also absolutely hated Falcon before he got nerfed a bit, again nobody wanted him banned.

Even then though, the hatred towards Sonic is nowhere near as bad as it was back when Bthrow was a good kill throw. Instead of "this is the most annoying thing to fight ever in this game except maybe Luigi", its "man that Sonic was boring to watch. I like (insert name here)'s Sonic much better he's hype instead of campy".

Having two of his kill moves nerfed (Bthrow, Fsmash) along with a few points taken out of his weight went a long ways to killing most of the hatred towards him.

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

Hated =/= wanting to be banned. Two different criteria, two different measuring points. People absolutely hated Sheik before the last patch... but nobody was really calling for her to be banned. She wasn't at that line. Some people also absolutely hated Falcon before he got nerfed a bit, again nobody wanted him banned.

Even then though, the hatred towards Sonic is nowhere near as bad as it was back when Bthrow was a good kill throw. Instead of "this is the most annoying thing to fight ever in this game except maybe Luigi", its "man that Sonic was boring to watch. I like (insert name here)'s Sonic much better he's hype instead of campy".

Having two of his kill moves nerfed (Bthrow, Fsmash) along with a few points taken out of his weight went a long ways to killing most of the hatred towards him.

Yeah, people used to detest Sonic. Now it's just "Lol that player was cheap because he used Sonic. Luigi also used to be very imfamous too, 0-80 of one grab I believe when executed. Nobody hates him anymore. And remember Diddy Kong?! That doesn't even need to be described.

Here's the problem with Bayonetta: Her design was based on being a combo heavy character. If they were to nerf her combos, it'd be like nerfing Little Mac's ground game. Doing less damage doesn't mean anything, as long as she still has the combos. Witch Time has already been nerfed and I feel it is predictable and easily punished. DI'ing won't do much if the Bayo reads it. So it's hard to decrease the hate without nerfing her, and it's hard to nerf her. I think we should let the meta game cope, and see how it copes. Then we can judge.

 

[Shaya]

Diddy's up air used to be frame 3, now it's frame 4.
No animation changes were made, just the hitbox started a frame later, removing the part where it noticeably hits below him.

Witch Twist start up nerf seems like the most sane consistent suggestion for her.
Something to consider though is whether we want witch twist completely nerfed, or just it's problem cases nerfed.
i.e. the choice of nerfing Meta Knight's up air to make Shuttle Loop's most used and "abused" case less prevalent while keeping other shuttle loop usages at the same strength - or just nerfing the strength of shuttle loop and keeping the character's abuse 'there', just weaker [i.e. ZSS boost kick nerf].

People will probably dislike the character as long as the long list of "janky" things are there (Brawl Snake would blush at some of Bayonetta's hitboxes + it taking a lot of decay for Witch Time to not combo into an up smash that kills at 90%). But to some extent these excesses are necessary to have her be usable, so while anecdotally annoying it doesn't constitute hate.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Landing lag I don't feel is the way to go. She already has a decent amount there, she just needs to be forced to suffer it more.

She suffers it often, just maybe doesn't suffer hard enough.
The idea to reduce air speed on happens after using the second Up B, the idea to increase the extra landing lag happens as soon as she uses a aerial special.

 

[FuzzyQuills]

Maybe... make her like Pichu; self-damaging with certain moves.

 

[Mr. Johan]

We've seen specials get some hitbox variance depending on whether it was used on the ground or in the air, so why not apply that to Witch Twist?

Make it so that Grounded Witch Twist's hitboxes have completely horizontal, set knockback. That way, it can remain Frame 4, but she can't Shia Lebouf it whenever she pleases and expect the maximum reward for it.

If she wants to combo with Witch Twist, she has to jump with it first, automatically making it a Frame 8 move with a hitbox still largely straight up.

If WT's frames need to be increased absolutely, then so be it, but remember that it's meant to combo from grounded Heel Slide most of all, so adding to much startup to it may make that particular chain impossible.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Maybe... make her like Pichu; self-damaging with certain moves.

Eww......
Wasn't Pichu the worst in Melee? Slightly above Kirby I think.

 

[Delta Chae]

Eww......
Wasn't Pichu the worst in Melee? Slightly above Kirby I think.

Self damaging moves was far from the only reason Pichu was bad. Also Pichu is arguably not the worst and many top players like Mew2King think he is underrated (Albeit still bad).

 

[Purpledebo]

BAAAAAAAAAN HER (in tournaments)

she's toxic for the whole community, even Europe is getting sick of her ****

 

[SiO2]

At this point, its becoming an echo chamber/feedback loop scenario.

1. People perceive Bayonetta is OP, broken, and/or unbeatable
2. Bayonetta gets banned in a region due to these perceived issues
3. Anti-Bayonetta tech can't develop in said region because no one can play Bayonetta in a competitive setting
4. Players from a Bayonetta-banned region play against a Bayonetta, and lose due to lack of anti-Bayonetta tech development
5. Repeat ad nauseum

Likewise:

1. People perceive Bayonetta is OP, broken, and/or unbeatable
2. Players refuse to play Bayonetta on principle
3. Anti-Bayonetta tech can't develop because opponents refuse to play her, negating the need for said tech
4. Spectators, other players, and TOs are not able to witness anti-Bayonetta tech
5. Repeat ad nauseum

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

Eww......
Wasn't Pichu the worst in Melee? Slightly above Kirby I think.

Pichu is ranked 24th. He's above Kirby and Bowser. Mew2King also considers him the best low tier.

 

[Problem2]

I wish Bayonneta didn't get her ABK back after getting hit. It would make edgeguarding her far more viable and make recovering with her more interesting, but Nintendo hasn't been known to often change the entire rules of how a move works.

 

[blackghost]

what are these nerfs from reasonable people? beause this community wants her to basically be unplayable.

 

[Tizio Random]

what are these nerfs from reasonable people? beause this community wants her to basically be unplayable.

Adding the start up on grounded Witch Twist would hardly make her unplayable. In her trailer Sakurai said that her combos were a bit slow to start but WT gives the middle finger to this premise being frame 4. The problem with her design is that she shouldn't win neutral without a read, a punish or Witch Time (there's a reason why this move exist). Nerfing start-up and reducing the distance it brings opponents would make it fair: it doesn't kill ridicously early on top but retains damage.
And I also would change DABK so that it sends opponent more horizontally and away because as of now the fact you can chain two that easily and bring some as high as Mount Everest is embarassing.

 

[blackghost]

Adding the start up on grounded Witch Twist would hardly make her unplayable. In her trailer Sakurai said that her combos were a bit slow to start but WT gives the middle finger to this premise being frame 4. The problem with her design is that she shouldn't win neutral without a read, a punish or Witch Time (there's a reason why this move exist). Nerfing start-up and reducing the distance it brings opponents would make it fair: it doesn't kill ridicously early on top but retains damage.
And I also would change DABK so that it sends opponent more horizontally and away because as of now the fact you can chain two that easily and bring some as high as Mount Everest is embarassing.

If you get hit with dABK and go striaght up you didn't DI right. That combo off dABK should be extremely inconsistent.
I can get with a witch twist start up nerf.
They dont need to touch Witch time. its fine as is. Its not my fault if my opponent doesnt rush me down when dont have witch time available same thing as rosalina as far as I care.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Diddy's up air used to be frame 3, now it's frame 4.
No animation changes were made, just the hitbox started a frame later, removing the part where it noticeably hits below him.

Witch Twist start up nerf seems like the most sane consistent suggestion for her.
Something to consider though is whether we want witch twist completely nerfed, or just it's problem cases nerfed.
i.e. the choice of nerfing Meta Knight's up air to make Shuttle Loop's most used and "abused" case less prevalent while keeping other shuttle loop usages at the same strength - or just nerfing the strength of shuttle loop and keeping the character's abuse 'there', just weaker [i.e. ZSS boost kick nerf].

People will probably dislike the character as long as the long list of "janky" things are there (Brawl Snake would blush at some of Bayonetta's hitboxes + it taking a lot of decay for Witch Time to not combo into an up smash that kills at 90%). But to some extent these excesses are necessary to have her be usable, so while anecdotally annoying it doesn't constitute hate.

I think only grounded Witch Twist needs nerfing. A frame 4 OOS option on a character who, nominally, is supposed to have bad startup is...eh? (The combos are honestly just gravy at that point.) Increasing the startup to frame 6 (still fastest grounded option by 1 frame), 7 (ties with dtilt/grab for fastest ground option) or 8 (matches frame perfect air Witch Twist, 4f jumpsquat + 4f air startup) gets my vote. Nerfing the initial hitbox so it doesn't cover the area in front of her quite so well is optional, but would further emphasize the fact that she's supposed to have bad boxing and give it a solid niche as an anti-air option instead of a generic "GTFO and oh by the way here's a combo". Air Witch Twist is mostly fine, I think?

For the rest of her moveset, I think the main problem case is her vertical carry during combos. The entire point of her character is air combos, so I highly doubt they'll do anything too drastic, but there's a legit argument to be made that literally carrying someone through the top blastzone with Witch Twist is a bit much. (Or finishing them with uair if there's still an inch or so left.) With that in mind, I can see them adjusting her moves to hit a bit more horizontally than vertically, reducing the amount she floats after hitting Afterburner Kick and fair, and nerfing uair.

But it's important to be realistic. Unless they gut her completely and make her air game Little Mac-tier, I dont't think there's much they can do to stop her from confirming an Afterburner Kick into a kill if she hits it at full hop or double jump height.

 

[Tizio Random]

If you get hit with dABK and go striaght up you didn't DI right. That combo off dABK should be extremely inconsistent.
I can get with a witch twist start up nerf.
They dont need to touch Witch time. its fine as is. Its not my fault if my opponent doesnt rush me down when dont have witch time available same thing as rosalina as far as I care.

Maybe you're right but I've never seen someone fail to connect a second dABK after the first one even against top players. I mean, it travels so much distance diagonally that I think it's impossible to avoid but I can't test it right now, so if you send some evidence that it can be escaped even if done correctly it would be very nice.
If it sends more horizontally and away it could possibly be DI'd out meaning that it would only punish bad DI and it's nice.
Also, Witch Time is fine, I never said anything about, in fact I even defended its existence.

EDIT: I completely agree with ParanoidDrone post.

 

[teluoborg]

Just to add something consistent to the conversation :
3h training session between Dabuzz and Kaora to find the correct DI to all of Bayo's moves :
https://www.twitch.tv/dabuz18/v/60434768
I haven't watched the whole thing yet but I'll probably do it sometime in the future and I'll make a summary.


Bayonetta's hitboxes by Furil :
http://smashboards.com/threads/bayonetta-hitbox-visualization.435127/