It seems this particular part of the discussion is going absolutely no where. You're going to say that her combos can be DIed and then myself or someone will just say that she can react to your DI.
But you disregarded the first sentence when you Quoted my post where she sends you Horizontal, right? And her "reacting" to your DI isn't a thing because her attacks have to more or less be buffered unless you want the opponent to get out of your combo. 6 frames of input lag + 12 frames (average) is the time they have to DI, You have to wait and read your opponent and by time then they've DI'd out your combo. Take her to the lab and make a "true combo" out of the ladder chain. You'll find out that her ladder combo isn't true and people can escape if Bayonetta has to "react" to DI. In fact, certain combinations of the Ladder if you DI properly.
But to your point, Her knockback is
Horizontal and isn't affected like Falco's
Vertical KB. That was the point of that paragraph that I was addressing. the only thing that sends you Vertical is her dABK but once again, that's 2 of the 4 moves that are needed to send you over the top.
And yet we don't see any of this having a significant impact on how players approach neutral against her. Why is that? Perhaps it's because she is capable of netting a high amount of damage and possibly even a stock off of a countered jab. I don't care what your opinion of her as a character is, if you think being able to net a huge amount of damage or a kill off of a countered jab makes for a balanced character then you don't know anything about game balance.
As for attacks being used after aerial specials. I was referring to the neutral game, not an advantaged state. Of course you're going to do that when comboing the opponent since that's the whole point but doing it in the neutral or in a disadvantaged state would be stupid.
You missed the point again. What does a counter need to activate? Two players to interact correct? Bayonetta has an established punish game correct? So if you are being predictable, she is going to punish you. Once again, if she makes a read on your Jab (the only other way is to take a wild guess) then you get punished. But Bayonetta players aren't going to just throw out Witch Time because the Decay is too great. You use Witch Time twice and it's gone for about 20 seconds, because using it after that is practically useless because the slow down isn't worth it. Which is why the option here is to bait it out. But since you don't understand how Witch Time works besides slowing down the opponent, then i think you need more research as to how the character works.
Also, you don't know how Bayonetta works or you'd know her Aerial Specials give her the great Aerial Mobility i'm speaking of. and that is Apart of her Neutral Game.
You any many others keep saying to just force her into shield and then grab her. Here's the problem with that: grabs do not lead into much in this game and therein lies the problem. The consequences for losing neutral for her are not nearly as bad as for the opponent. With Fox in Melee he has amazing tools in neutral and a killer combo game that can also potentially kill off of one mistake. The difference between Fox and Bayonetta is that Fox has extremely difficult execution making his neutral very easy to screw up and if you screw up his neutral you will eat a huge punish because of Melee's physics and punish game being much more suited to that kind of thing. Not so with Bayonetta which admittedly has more to do with the physics than with her as a character but does not make it any less skewed in her favor.
Grabs don't lead into much in this game? Bowser and DK would like to have a word with you. The consequences for her losing neutral aren't bad because she's a character that thrives off punishing mistakes, not rushdown. if you play Bayonetta like Sheik or Fox, you will get trounced on. The Difference between Fox and Bayonetta is that Bayonetta doesn't have a Shine, can't Wavedash, has poor frame data. Her shining points are Witch Twist and Witch Time. But we won't address the Bad frame data on Normals, Rolls or dodges correct?
I think you are severely overestimating how often good players actually get baited into throwing out punishable moves. People that are actually good know their data and what moves are safe and which ones aren't. Also she isn't really getting beat at majors so much as she's not getting played at majors (At least as far as the top players are concerned) because top players refuse to use her out principle. Though admittedly this is counter-intuitive as far as proving that she is a problem goes. That being said I do not think that the main problem at this point is how powerful she is but rather that she is causing people to not have fun when playing the game and people are quitting as result. It's not a matter of just not knowing the matchup but people actively do not enjoy and even hate playing the Bayonetta MU. Before you say anything: yes it's possible to not be well versed in a matchup and not actively hate it. I'm not very good against Falcon or in the Marth ditto in Melee but I do not actively dread these matchups like many people do with Bayonetta and this is where the problem stems from: people just don't thinking playing against her is fun.
Well... seeing how most people play with characters with pretty good frame data, or a puppet character, then I don't think I'm overestimating how
good players get baited. because if that's the case, then Bayonetta would do alot worst because her entire playstyle revolves around
Baiting and
Punishing. If you rush into Bayonetta, you will eat a combo for your trouble, that is the way she's designed. If there was a character like her in Melee, it would turn the Melee Meta on it's head because you cannot use Frame Traps against her willy nilly. People don't think playing against her is fun,
once again, because she destroys flowchart play. Bayonetta trounces people who don't use true combos or use the same option repeatedly. Mang0 said it best about Mew2King that "Mew2King" always
chooses the best option, therefore he knows how to
Punish Mew2King because he knows what move is next. That is how Witch Time works, that is how Bat Within can turn the tide in combos. Bayonetta enforces not doing the same thing like a Flowchart.
And she is the 3rd most played character, and Dabuz plays her in Doubles (that's all i know of the top players so far).
Yeah, you need to go do some Bayonetta research yourself. Go play the character and we can continue this conversation after you know what Bayonetta can do, not what the community at large tells you she can do...
A lot of his points are pretty valid.
