Banning Bayonetta in Tournaments

[Eddie The Pacifist]

We're talking about 'neutral game' in general.
I think Zero Suit Samus' neutral is pretty good, it has it's issues but it's still potent. Bayonetta's best options in neutral are strictly faster and as safe or safer than hers; with less raw ground mobility and longer cool down dodge options. How can she have terrible neutral?
From my view, Marth's neutral game is decent. But from tournament footage of the best Marth main in the US (possibly the world) getting completely shut down in neutral by Bayonetta because her nair and down tilt are strictly better than Marth's own similar tools is pretty expressive of her not having a terrible neutral game to me either.

Then we went on a tangent because ssbwiki said it's poor :<

.... Eddie... go look stuff up....

I agree with Zamus's neutral game. She can obtain small control over the stage and pressure her opponent with that. Even if her projectile is slow and short ranged, certain players can put the stun to amazing use. Bayonetta's Bullet Arts are actually underrated. The damage adds up (Do they stale though? I think I'll go look that stuff up). Side B is okay. It can catch an opponent off guard, if used wisely. Marth's neutral... I agree with you. It's decent, slightly underrated. Could I have a link to the Marth main getting shut down in Neutral by Bayonetta please? I'm intrested in observing that. Marth's range (Still one of the best in SSB4) is his neutral game. He can intimidate opponents with his air game. Also a great edgeguarder. Definitety underrated.

We're talking about 'neutral game' in general.
I think Zero Suit Samus' neutral is pretty good, it has it's issues but it's still potent. Bayonetta's best options in neutral are strictly faster and as safe or safer than hers; with less raw ground mobility and longer cool down dodge options. How can she have terrible neutral?
From my view, Marth's neutral game is decent. But from tournament footage of the best Marth main in the US (possibly the world) getting completely shut down in neutral by Bayonetta because her nair and down tilt are strictly better than Marth's own similar tools is pretty expressive of her not having a terrible neutral game to me either.

Then we went on a tangent because ssbwiki said it's poor :<

.... Eddie... go look stuff up....

Marth's neutral game is underrated. His aerial attacks can intimidate and force opponents to be careful when trying to get in at close range. He's also fairly fast. Having a shield breaker forces the opponent to be offensive and possibly make a mistake. A careful ZSS can beat a Bayonetta in Neutral game. Her better mobility and stun gun can out manuver a Bayonetta. Bayo really doesn't have an amazing neutral game with the exception of bullet arts. All the damage builds up.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Actually, look at this and the comments.

https://m.reddit.com/r/smashbros/co..._leo_meta_knight_vs_cs_wonf/?ref=search_posts

 

[Darksydaz]

Actually, look at this and the comments.

https://m.reddit.com/r/smashbros/co..._leo_meta_knight_vs_cs_wonf/?ref=search_posts

THAT SDI!

Also I like how MetaKnight Dictated the Neutral. Wonf had to adjust mid set because he had to realize that his death combos weren't working and he couldn't get away with just 0-Death. I questioned his use of the up throw in the first match, but that was prolly to throw off his DI and capitalize. That was an entertaining and close match for sure. I hope when I play Bayonetta online, someone does me like that so I get better.

So if we're talking about how easy it is to put an opponent into disadvantage, then Bayonetta has it easier and safer than ZSS does (unless you consider mobility is 100% of everything). Having safe and fast start up ground moves out do her in immediate capabilities (i.e. rising nair/other aerials, down tilt, and up-b with side-b away if whiff). ZSS Neutral is comparably all about hard reads or the opponent engaging inappropriately, because she explicitly does not have fast start up conditions and safety at the same time.

So when we speak on Neutral also involving shield, Bayonetta can scare someone into shield sure. But her throw game at mid percents is nothing to write home about. She gets some mix-ups at low percents off down-throw, but her shield game is slightly better than Clouds (IMO). ZSS has a good dash attack mix up seeing that she can start it early and pass through the opponent, start it late and stay the same side. ZSS does also have to scare people into shield but the rewards she gets for doing so are much better than what Bayonetta can get from scaring someone into shield. So if we speak on Neutral Game and how to put someone in an disadvantaged state, then ZSS can do it better than Bayonetta (IMO).

*My knowledge of ZSS is pre-patch 1.1.5, so correct me if something is wrong please*

ZSS can convert off her dash attack, Dtilt, D-throw, or falling Uair into Uair chain. Bayonetta can convert off her Dtilt, Heel Slide (grounded ABK), dABK, Fair*, falling Uair*. But if we are speaking of options in the Neutral, then Bayonetta has better mobility options than ZSS, but ZSS has (way) better OOS options and Paralyser is a better Projectile than Bullet Climax. ZSS can play rush down or defensive, Bayonetta's approach options are limited as most are REALLY unsafe on shield. So if the Neutral is played by who can control it the best, I'd put my money on ZSS before Bayonetta with such things like Nair beating out Bayo's Aerials and her Throws being better so that ZSS will have better (non-mobility) options than ZSS, no?

*these are more difficult than the other 4

Bayonetta is getting away with not reading the opponent now because people don't understand what is safe and what is not. Bayonetta in a match is like watching a new fighting game for the first time, people start doing all these unsafe options and no one knows the optimal punish on these unsafe options. Bayonetta has the same gameplan that ZSS has, only difference is dABK. But to make up for it, ZSS has the iFrames of Flip kick which is a powerful meteor. I think ZSS has better kill options than Bayo and slightly better ways to open up opponents.

*whew that was long...

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

Bayonetta is something players will adapt to. Meta Knight's only notable weakness is his light weight. Bayo has quite a few weaknesses that players will exploit.

 

[Terotrous]

Actually, look at this and the comments.

https://m.reddit.com/r/smashbros/co..._leo_meta_knight_vs_cs_wonf/?ref=search_posts

I feel like the whole reason the MK player won this set is because the Bayonetta inexplicably decided never to use Witch Time. She uses it maybe 4-5 times max during the entire set, and notably not even once during the first game. That's like being a Zangief player and never doing SPD. Even if you whiff Witch Time you have to establish the threat so your opponent will be wary in their offense, or characters like MK can just run roughshod over you.

This perhaps suggests that Bayo would be a fair (if somewhat dumb) character if Witch Time was less powerful or didn't exist.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

I feel like the whole reason the MK player won this set is because the Bayonetta inexplicably decided never to use Witch Time. She uses it maybe 4-5 times max during the entire set, and notably not even once during the first game. That's like being a Zangief player and never doing SPD. Even if you whiff Witch Time you have to establish the threat so your opponent will be wary in their offense, or characters like MK can just run roughshod over you.

This perhaps suggests that Bayo would be a fair (if somewhat dumb) character if Witch Time was less powerful or didn't exist.

Huh? Most Bayonetta use very few WT in an entire set already.
Witch Time isn't free, it decays massively after one use. It is just another counter, and it has to be used carefully.

This suggests Leo adapted, Bayonetta suffers in neutral, and she isn't that powerful.

 

[Terotrous]

Huh? Most Bayonetta use very few WT in an entire set already.
Witch Time isn't free, it decays massively after one use. It is just another counter, and it has to be used carefully.

Most counters in the game are already super good, and Witch Time is safer, faster, and has higher reward than they do. It's easily one of the primary factors that makes Bayo so dangerous.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Most counters in the game are already super good, and Witch Time is safer, faster, and has higher reward than they do. It's easily one of the primary factors that makes Bayo so dangerous.

I know. But at the end of the day, it is just a counter. Grabs can't be punished by WT and WT is baitable.

 

[Ghidorah14]

I feel like the whole reason the MK player won this set is because the Bayonetta inexplicably decided never to use Witch Time. She uses it maybe 4-5 times max during the entire set, and notably not even once during the first game. That's like being a Zangief player and never doing SPD.

Words cannot describe how hard I am facepalming right now.

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

Witch Time is safer, faster, and has higher reward than they do. It's easily one of the primary factors that makes Bayo so dangerous.

I'd be inclined to disagree. You can be damaged. Unlike other counters, WT slows the opponent, but doesn't stop their attack. That's the intresting thing about it.

 

[Delta Chae]

I just don't see any good things about her other than DI'able 0-Death combos. Why do people complain. Every character is strong (Even Zelda has the Up-B OOS and Phantom Slash edgeguard) and weak (Rosalina is pretty bad without Luma) in a way. Bayonetta is no exception. She is not Brawl MK, and we put up with him now.

I don't play Smash 4 often so take this with a grain of salt: aren't Bayonetta's combos predominantly vertical based? In Melee the reason Falco's combos are so hard to DI is because they are vertically based so being able to alter your launch angle by about 17 degrees or so doesn't make a significant difference in what followups he can get unless you also have immaculate SDI. The problem I believe people have is that whether or not SDIing her attacks are practical outside of a laboratory setting when there's no pressure. Keep in mind that SDI modifiers for multi-hit moves in Smash 4 are much lower than they were in previous entries. I too question whether or not SDIing her combos is practical or even humanly possible under most tournament conditions.

I also wish that people would the Meta Knight comparisons. People act as if he had no weaknesses when he did, the main problem was that his strengths greatly overwhelmed his weaknesses and that's the main thing people are claiming about Bayonetta. The main problem I have with Bayonetta is that she has a serviceable neutral and a monster combo game. This translates to a character that is relatively low risk high reward. Please don't try to say that her neutral is terrible because it's not. Certainly it's nothing to write home about but it's not like her neutral is the equivalent of Melee Kirby who has absolutely no way to get in unless the opponent screws up monumentally.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think that the character needs to be banned (Not yet at least) but I do think she warrants some pretty significant nerfs. Not to her combo game though, that would gut the character and make her no longer faithful to her home series. Instead her neutral needs to be made worse so she has to work much harder to win it and Witch Time should scale with the damage of the move being countered and be more punishable if it doesn't trigger, this would make her a medium risk high reward character which I think people would be ok with.

Another thing I see people bring up is that the players who are winning tournaments with Bayonetta were always good players. While that may be true you also need to keep in mind that many of these players picked up Bayonetta and in the span of a few weeks or less went from being top 16 players in their regions to winning tournaments outright. Whether or not this says anything about Bayonetta "carrying" players is not up to me to decide but it does demonstrate that she is far too easy to pick up and master. I'll give an example: PPMD in Melee plays Marth and Falco. If he suddenly decided to pick up a Jigglypuff for some reason do you really think he'd be winning tournaments within 2 weeks using only Puff? As good of a player as he is, it's not a likely scenario. Just something to think about.

 

[iwatalemon]

People should just learn the match up. I don't like bayonetta (infact I hate her) but complaining is gonna do jack ****. Figure out her weaknesses and fight other bayonetta players.

 

[David Viran]

I'd be inclined to disagree. You can be damaged. Unlike other counters, WT slows the opponent, but doesn't stop their attack. That's the intresting thing about it.

Yeah, but the bayo player should literally always hard punish you for a fresh WT at least. She will always be able to act before the WT opponent can do anything else. I still see a lot of bayo players just take the hit from the multi hit or charge a smash against an obvious lingering attack only to not get any sort of punish at all.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Yeah, but the bayo player should literally always hard punish you for a fresh WT at least. She will always be able to act before the WT opponent can do anything else. I still see a lot of bayo players just take the hit from the multi hit or charge a smash against an obvious lingering attack only to not get any sort of punish at all.

If you take a hit from a multi hit, WT automatically cancels.

 

[Terotrous]

Words cannot describe how hard I am facepalming right now.

Well then you have a pretty limited understanding of how fighting games are played at a high level, the early rounds are all about feeling out your opponent and getting a read on their tendencies. Any top-level FGC player will tell you the importance of gambling early with your high-risk, high-reward options to put that threat in your opponent's head for later. Metaknight was going hard with pressure and doing many non-guaranteed strings vs Bayo in round 1 because he had no fear of WT. If Bayo had mashed out a WT during one of those strings or when MK dashed in, even if it got baited and punished, MK would have been much more cautious throughout the match.


Here's Infiltration making this point about R. Mika for example.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVUTiy57VVc#t=31m14s

"If I played Mika I would command grab like 5 times in the first round.
Who would do that on the first round? What kind of crazy person is this? You have to send that message.
You must get through to their mind that they will have that moment where they have to decide something dire".


Feel free to claim that Infiltration makes you facepalm.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

I don't play Smash 4 often so take this with a grain of salt

Hmmmmm.......

I too question whether or not SDIing her combos is practical or even humanly possible under most tournament conditions.

Beefy Smash Doods video has proven it is more than possible failure to escape is strictly the players' problem.

People act as if he had no weaknesses when he did, the main problem was that his strengths greatly overwhelmed his weaknesses and that's the main thing people are claiming about Bayonetta.

Unlike Meta Knight, Bayonetta doesn't have the results to match up with him despite being the third most used character. It is vastly proven Bayonetta is more than beatable, the problem for people now is she is "boring for everyone".

Please don't try to say that her neutral is terrible because it's not. Certainly it's nothing to write home about but it's not like her neutral is the equivalent of Melee Kirby who has absolutely no way to get in unless the opponent screws up monumentally.

Of course her neutral is better than Melee Kirby's, but that doesn't say a lot. Bayonetta's suffers in the neutral against a patient player, her option are predictable, and her only has a few safe options.

While that may be true you also need to keep in mind that many of these players picked up Bayonetta and in the span of a few weeks or less went from being top 16 players in their regions to winning tournaments outright.

It is just a lack of matchup knowledge, check the Reddit link from older post. Leo was originally trashed by the Bayonetta (3-0), now he adapted and got revenge by trashing her back (3-0).

If he suddenly decided to pick up a Jigglypuff for some reason do you really think he'd be winning tournaments within 2 weeks using only Puff? As good of a player as he is, it's not a likely scenario. Just something to think about.

If Puff was a new character maybe. When Roy returned, everyone believed him to be a high tier due to him being new to most Smash 4 players.

If Bayo had mashed out a WT during one of those strings or when MK dashed in, even if it got baited and punished, MK would have been much more cautious throughout the match.

Leo was already very cautious, he was reading her properly and DIing her combos correctly. After baitingng Witch Time, Leo knows Bayonetta is not gonna waste another one due to the heavy decay. By baiting out Witch Time properly, instead of Wonf getting into Leo's head, Leo got into Wonf's head.

 

[Ghidorah14]

Well then you have a pretty limited understanding of how fighting games are played at a high level, the early rounds are all about feeling out your opponent and getting a read on their tendencies. Any top-level FGC player will tell you the importance of gambling early with your high-risk, high-reward options to put that threat in your opponent's head for later. Metaknight was going hard with pressure and doing many non-guaranteed strings vs Bayo in round 1 because he had no fear of WT. If Bayo had mashed out a WT during one of those strings or when MK dashed in, even if it got baited and punished, MK would have been much more cautious throughout the match.

I'm not facepalming because I dont understand risk/reward in fighting games.

I'm facepalming at how blatantly incorrect you are about witch time.

You say it's surprising that a bayo player isnt constantly going for WT, comparing it to 'gief's SPD, but they couldnt be further apart in their usage.

Witch time, every time it's used (even if it misses) incurs a penalty to length. After the nerf, witch time last less, has an even higher penalty for usage, and takes even longer to recover than it used to.

In summation, you actually cant spam witch time, because by doing so, you're only shooting yourself in the foot. It's best use is for closing out stocks/setting up ladder combos, and being a counter, it requires a read to get it off. You dont just press a button as casually as you would the shield button and win instantly.

Compare that to 'gief, who literally wants to do nothing but SPD you.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Compare that to 'gief, who literally wants to do nothing but SPD you.

Can you explain SPD and gief?

 

[Terotrous]

You say it's surprising that a bayo player isnt constantly going for WT, comparing it to 'gief's SPD, but they couldnt be further apart in their usage.

I didn't say he should have "constantly" gone for it, merely that he should have used it at least a few times in the first round, to discourage the MK player from playing so boldly.

Witch time, every time it's used (even if it misses) incurs a penalty to length. After the nerf, witch time last less, has an even higher penalty for usage, and takes even longer to recover than it used to.

This is a very minor risk all things considered. The risk for missing a reversal DP is that you take a full combo, and yet people still do it all the time. The bigger risk is that if WT gets baited you may take a combo, but if you're in a situation where a successful WT will take off a stock and a missed WT will only result in a light punish (as was the case towards the middle of round 1), the risk / reward is heavily in your favour.

Compare that to 'gief, who literally wants to do nothing but SPD you.

That's not quite true. If Gief SPDs in every possible mixup situation, you can just jump it every time. He has to SPD sometimes and not SPD other times, so you don't know which option to choose.

There are also some "disrespectful" times to SPD, for example, mashing out EX SPD during an opponent's blockstring to catch them if they attempt a frametrap. This is the kind of "crazy person" logic that Infiltration was talking about. If you make them think "he might mash out SPD", they won't attempt many frametraps, which gives you a big edge in the neutral game.

Can you explain SPD and gief?

SPD or Spinning Piledriver is Zangief's command grab. It's very fast, does a lot of damage, leads to a knockdown situation, and you can't block it, but if they jump it misses, and if can't be done if the opponent is in hit or block stun. Basically, any time the opponent isn't doing anything, you could attempt SPD, such as after they block one of your attacks, or when they're getting up after being knocked down.

 

[David Viran]

If you take a hit from a multi hit, WT automatically cancels.

I know this and my point was that bayo shouldn't even be getting hit when she WTs an opponent.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

I know this and my point was that bayo shouldn't even be getting hit when she WTs an opponent.

You never know, a Greninja knocked me out of Witch Time with Usmash. Cloud's Fsmash is perfect for it too.

 

[David Viran]

You never know, a Greninja knocked me out of Witch Time with Usmash. Cloud's Fsmash is perfect for it too.

Yeah and that would be your fault. You could have done something about it to not get hit.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Yeah and that would be your fault. You could have done something about it to not get hit.

Like what? I was in the middle of WT's endlag. I saw the second hit coming and I was mashing for a Bat within.

 

[David Viran]

Like what? I was in the middle of WT's endlag. I saw the second hit coming and I was mashing for a Bat within.

You could have shielded. It has been tested on rapid jabs that come out every 2 frames (the fastest it can get) and bayo can always shield in time.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

You could have shielded. It has been tested on rapid jabs that come out every 2 frames (the fastest it can get) and bayo can always shield in time.

It was an Usmash and I was in the air.

 

[David Viran]

It was an Usmash and I was in the air.

It would be hard to tell then because you could have AD into the ground a frame after it came out and got hit immediately so you didn't notice you landing and think the AD didn't come out.

Anyways I didn't test every specific situation but at the very least a grounded WT is consistent and due to the nature of WT stalling and moving you in the air it gets you out of the range of other moves without having to do anything a lot of the time.

 

[Delta Chae]

Hmmmmm.......


Beefy Smash Doods video has proven it is more than possible failure to escape is strictly the players' problem.


Unlike Meta Knight, Bayonetta doesn't have the results to match up with him despite being the third most used character. It is vastly proven Bayonetta is more than beatable, the problem for people now is she is "boring for everyone".


Of course her neutral is better than Melee Kirby's, but that doesn't say a lot. Bayonetta's suffers in the neutral against a patient player, her option are predictable, and her only has a few safe options.


It is just a lack of matchup knowledge, check the Reddit link from older post. Leo was originally trashed by the Bayonetta (3-0), now he adapted and got revenge by trashing her back (3-0).


If Puff was a new character maybe. When Roy returned, everyone believed him to be a high tier due to him being new to most Smash 4 players.


Leo was already very cautious, he was reading her properly and DIing her combos correctly. After baitingng Witch Time, Leo knows Bayonetta is not gonna waste another one due to the heavy decay. By baiting out Witch Time properly, instead of Wonf getting into Leo's head, Leo got into Wonf's head.

You didn't even address most of my questions or points.

Please note that the Beefy Smash Doods video was produced under laboratory conditions so how applicable it is to a real world scenario (At least as far as DIing her combos goes) is questionable. See my previous point about vertical DI.

You could take the same argument that people have been using for her (People just need to learn the match-up) and turn it around to say that she hasn't truly been optimized yet. This goes both ways and is ultimately a pointless discussion once it gets to that point.

You're falling into the trap of thinking Bayonetta's neutral is terrible. I don't care if you think Bayonetta isn't a good character but to say that she has a bad neutral is at best woefully ignorant and at worst blatantly dishonest. As many have already stated: her neutral is nothing to write home about but it gets the job done well enough, the general consensus seems to be that it's average at worst.

Please stop telling people "Just adapt" that's the equivalent of telling someone "git gud" it contributes absolutely nothing to the discussion and only pisses the other person off. Right now in the Kentuckiana scene there's quite a bit of stir over Bayonetta and the only thing the anti-ban proponents are telling people is "git gud" or some variation thereof, as a result the Smash 4 scene here is full of in-fighting and arguing rather than actually doing anything productive. It certainly doesn't help that most the people here that take issue with Bayonetta don't want her banned, just nerfed but always receive accusations of being salty crybabies from Bayonetta apologists who seem to interpret nerf as ban whenever someone tries to open a discussion on the matter.

Here's the issue with your Roy example. A lack of MU knowledge did not cause Mewtwo, Roy, Ryu, Cloud, or Corrin to dominate tournaments immediately after they had been released. Cloud is right now known be a very solid character as well as possibly the best doubles character in the game but otherwise is simply solid but not outstanding. Ryu is known to be very good but has very difficult execution leaving him with a fairly small playerbase. Corrin at this point is simply seen as a solid character with a very good counter. Roy's position as it stands is a subject of debate because almost nobody has even attempted to main him in any serious capacity so for all we know he could be great or his current position might be entirely accurate. Mewtwo has received some pretty significant buffs since his release (And upon release had been inexplicably nerfed in the transition from Melee in spite of being terrible there too) so his current position is debatable. Bayonetta is the only DLC character to have caused this kind of stir upon her release so you have have admit that there at least might be a problem here.

As I said before: I do not think Bayonetta should be banned for the time being. I do think her moveset needs to be scaled back to a more reasonable level.

 

[Ghidorah14]

I didn't say he should have "constantly" gone for it, merely that he should have used it at least a few times in the first round, to discourage the MK player from playing so boldly.

He probably didnt use it much because he felt it wouldnt work, or the MK would bait it out and punish.

This is a very minor risk all things considered. The risk for missing a reversal DP is that you take a full combo, and yet people still do it all the time.

Thats because people are scrubs (at least as far as SF4's online modes are concerned). People could mash out DPs mid-combo in SF4. Bad players doing dumb stuff and it working is nothing new.

The bigger risk is that if WT gets baited you may take a combo, but if you're in a situation where a successful WT will take off a stock and a missed WT will only result in a light punish (as was the case towards the middle of round 1), the risk / reward is heavily in your favour.

And after even just 2 uses, WT stops being a viable option for a while, as the duration will become near useless.

That's not quite true. If Gief SPDs in every possible mixup situation, you can just jump it every time. He has to SPD sometimes and not SPD other times, so you don't know which option to choose.

Good thing 'gief got an air SPD in SF5. Now, if he conditions you to jump, free air SPD.

So again, SPD is all he wants to do. Bayo cant go for witch time anywhere nearly as frequently.

There are also some "disrespectful" times to SPD, for example, mashing out EX SPD during an opponent's blockstring to catch them if they attempt a frametrap. This is the kind of "crazy person" logic that Infiltration was talking about. If you make them think "he might mash out SPD", they won't attempt many frametraps, which gives you a big edge in the neutral game.

If they bait the mashed out SPD, then they get a free punish.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Please note that the Beefy Smash Doods video was produced under laboratory conditions so how applicable it is to a real world scenario (At least as far as DIing her combos goes) is questionable. See my previous point about vertical DI.

As far as I am concerned, BSD has shown DIing is possible. There is not too much difference between a real world scenario and a laboratory one, didn't a lot of people escape her death combos in the middle of the match recently?

You could take the same argument that people have been using for her (People just need to learn the match-up) and turn it around to say that she hasn't truly been optimized yet. This goes both ways and is ultimately a pointless discussion once it gets to that point.

True, my old analogy was "He can use (not have) a gun. Let's arrest him even though he didn't hurt anyone."

You're falling into the trap of thinking Bayonetta's neutral is terrible. I don't care if you think Bayonetta isn't a good character but to say that she has a bad neutral is at best woefully ignorant and at worst blatantly dishonest. As many have already stated: her neutral is nothing to write home about but it gets the job done well enough, the general consensus seems to be that it's average at worst.

If you don't care, why should I explain it to you? Explain her neutral to me.

Please stop telling people "Just adapt" that's the equivalent of telling someone "git gud" it contributes absolutely nothing to the discussion and only pisses the other person off.

The other person is already pissed, just adapt is the best solution. I have posted many tips on fighting Bayonetta, even BSD has made a video.
But 1 million tips can't help you if you don't adapt, people should be thankful they have many people to ask for tips.

It certainly doesn't help that most the people here that take issue with Bayonetta don't want her banned, just nerfed but always receive accusations of being salty crybabies from Bayonetta apologists who seem to interpret nerf as ban whenever someone tries to open a discussion on the matter.

The Bayonetta apologist can be a little rabid, but forgot about them and focus on me.

Here's the issue with your Roy example. A lack of MU knowledge did not cause Mewtwo, Roy, Ryu, Cloud, or Corrin to dominate tournaments immediately after they had been released.

This imply Bayonetta has dominated tournament scene. While she is the third most used character (despite this supposed soft ban), she is 7th in terms of #1 results and less than 10% of her users placed first.
Bayonetta appeared once in Top 8 at Pound 2016, where I heard the was no 0 to death combos.

Bayonetta is the only DLC character to have caused this kind of stir upon her release so you have have admit that there at least might be a problem here.

She might be a problem, but the problem people have with her is 0 to death (proven to be not guarantee), andWitch Time (just another counter).
If she is a problem, we have no results to back up the claim.
If we patch her before people even try to adapt, she might end up being weaker than people stretch.

 

[Delta Chae]

As far as I am concerned, BSD has shown DIing is possible. There is not too much difference between a real world scenario and a laboratory one, didn't a lot of people escape her death combos in the middle of the match recently?


True, my old analogy was "He can use (not have) a gun. Let's arrest him even though he didn't hurt anyone."



If you don't care, why should I explain it to you? Explain her neutral to me.


The other person is already pissed, just adapt is the best solution. I have posted many tips on fighting Bayonetta, even BSD has made a video.
But 1 million tips can't help you if you don't adapt, people should be thankful they have many people to ask for tips.


The Bayonetta apologist can be a little rabid, but forgot about them and focus on me.


This imply Bayonetta has dominated tournament scene. While she is the third most used character (despite this supposed soft ban), she is 7th in terms of #1 results and less than 10% of her users placed first.
Bayonetta appeared once in Top 8 at Pound 2016, where I heard the was no 0 to death combos.


She might be a problem, but the problem people have with her is 0 to death (proven to be not guarantee), andWitch Time (just another counter).
If she is a problem, we have no results to back up the claim.
If we patch her before people even try to adapt, she might end up being weaker than people stretch.

You are still ignoring the majority of what I said.

You clearly ignored my point about vertical vs horizontal DI in my original post. The issue with Bayonetta's combos is that they are predominantly vertical meaning that DI's usefulness in such scenarios is limited. When talking about vertical angles DI can help you survive high power attacks such as Fox's upsmash but doesn't do a whole lot when it comes to escaping combos. Unlike horizontal DI where going at a lower angle prevents your opponent reaching you, vertical DI only alters the direction they have to go in order to follow up. This is the main reason why Falco's combos in Melee are so hard to DI out of if the player knows what they're doing.

I never said I didn't care about her as a character, do not put words into my mouth. I simply stated that claiming her neutral is bad is an incorrect statement. Again: nothing to write home about but does what it needs to do. Her bair, nair, and side-b are all fairly safe moves in neutral. The Beefy Smash Doods video even says and much and that you should "probably not try to punish bair and nair".

You seem to have a very bad case of selective hearing. You're throwing the accusation that the other person was already pissed which is a pretty bold statement to make. Even in that scenario telling someone "git gud" or an equivalent does nothing to help the situation. This phrase is almost as toxic as the League of Legends community: it's stupid, immature, and does absolutely nothing resolve the issue at hand.

You're now telling me to focus on you as if that's not what I've been doing this entire time? That statement was only made to make a point: that both sides are equally capable of being immature and idiotic about this whole mess.

The results are still indicative of a potential problem since at no other point has a DLC character caused this much a stir and received these kind of results immediately after being released.

Her 0 to deaths and Witch Time are not the only problems people have with her. I'm genuinely beginning to wonder if you are not intentionally ignoring points that the other side brings up in order to strengthen your own arguments. The main problem people have with her is that her risk reward ratio is skewed too far in her favor. She doesn't have to much in the neutral relative to the reward that she gets for winning it, that is the main problem here: she is low risk, high reward. If her neutral was a little worse so that she was a medium risk high reward character this wouldn't be nearly as big of an issue as it is right now. Also: stop saying that Witch Time is "just another counter" it's not. No other counter leads into a 50%+ combo and possible death off of a punished jab. A stupidly charged smash attack? Sure, if you're charging a smash attack you'd better either be punishing a broken shield or you're damn sure that your opponent is going to get hit by it. A jab? No, that's completely over the top and poor move design since jabs are meant to be safe low risk low reward moves.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

You clearly ignored my point about vertical vs horizontal DI in my original post.

You were talking about Melee, since you said you don't play 4 often, have you heard of vectoring?

Again: nothing to write home about but does what it needs to do. Her bair, nair, and side-b are all fairly safe moves in neutral. The Beefy Smash Doods video even says and much and that you should "probably not try to punish bair and nair".

I wonder who is falling for a trap here. Is any of these move useful on shield?
BSD has shown dABK is unsafe if you dodge it. You listed very few safe options here (and missed Witch Twist and spacef dtilt), none effective on shield. All of these are unsafe if used after an aerial special.

You seem to have a very bad case of selective hearing. You're throwing the accusation that the other person was already pissed which is a pretty bold statement to make. Even in that scenario telling someone "git gud" or an equivalent does nothing to help the situation.

Git good is a rude statement and I rarely use it. But if you are pissed when I ask you to adapted, you are likely pissed to begin with.
You can ask how to adapt, some tips, etc, we'd have a much more meaningful conversation.

That statement was only made to make a point: that both sides are equally capable of being immature and idiotic about this whole mess.

I see.

The results are still indicative of a potential problem since at no other point has a DLC character caused this much a stir and received these kind of results immediately after being released.

The problem is a lack of results, nothing is justifying this amount of hate aside from cherry picked results. People blows things out of proportion very often, ranging from Little Mac to the winner of the Ballot.
Maybe she need nerfs, but we should still adapt.

 

[Delta Chae]

You were talking about Melee, since you said you don't play 4 often, have you heard of vectoring?


I wonder who is falling for a trap here. Is any of these move useful on shield?
BSD has shown dABK is unsafe if you dodge it. You listed very few safe options here (and missed Witch Twist and spacef dtilt), none effective on shield. All of these are unsafe if used after an aerial special.


Git good is a rude statement and I rarely use it. But if you are pissed when I ask you to adapted, you are likely pissed to begin with.
You can ask how to adapt, some tips, etc, we'd have a much more meaningful conversation.


I see.


The problem is a lack of results, nothing is justifying this amount of hate aside from cherry picked results. People blows things out of proportion very often, ranging from Little Mac to the winner of the Ballot.
Maybe she need nerfs, but we should still adapt.

I am well aware of vectoring. I said I don't play Smash 4 often but I still play it and I am still well aware of how the mechanics work. You are still ignoring the fact that Bayonetta's combos, particularly with regards to her up b are predominantly vertical. Vectoring only takes effect when calculating horizontal knockback and is completely irrelevant when calculating vertical knockback.

So I missed a couple of safe moves when listing, how does that change my point at all? You're still have yet to prove that her neutral is unsafe. It may not be as good as other characters but it's not bad by any measure. And seriously? Did you really just say that that her moves are unsafe is used after an aerial special? Well then who in their right mind would throw out a move after using an aerial special in the first place? You have demonstrated that her neutral is only unsafe under specific circumstances that no competent player would ever put themselves in.

When you tell someone "just adapt" you are doing the equivalent of telling them "git gud" and contributing absolutely nothing as far as reaching a resolution is concerned. Why is it so hard for you to admit that you character might have a skewed risk/reward ratio that needs to be toned down?

Ok seriously, people need to stop comparing this to Little Mac. The main people that complained about Little Mac were For Glory scrubs (And they still do to this day), the competitive community for the most part didn't give a damn about him. There's also the fact that Little Mac's weaknesses were extremely obvious and laughably easy to exploit, to simplify things: Air Mac = Dead Mac.

A lack of results? Here's some things you need to take into account: many of the top players are refusing to use Bayonetta whether or not this is justified is not up to me to decide but that's the primary reason why she hasn't been winning majors, no character has achieved these kind of results and caused this huge of a ****storm to brew up immediately upon release, and you could also argue that the lack of results is because she is new and not yet optimized like other characters. And no, 1st place is not the only position that matters when discussing this type of thing and locals do matter when talking about this because that's where the majority of the playerbase is.

 

[Scribe]

From what I can tell, her combos are actually diagonal if anything. They're not just straight up and down, but in a zig-zag.

 

[FuzzyQuills]

anytime I hear someone say Bayo is too good, or OP, or needs to be banned, this is my response.

WHOA... I'll have to try that.

 

[[BROF]]

I'm only preaching to the choir here, but they call it a choir for a reason.

Bayonetta is boring to play against, to a degree never before seen in the game as of yet. She takes any of the fun out of the game for the player playing against her, and for the viewers as well. People will cheer against Bayonetta out of principle.
Risk-reward tremendously skewed. Can afford to lose neutral way more than her opponent can.
Punish opportunities against Bayonetta are extremely limited. Even if you are able to catch her landing, it's a 50/50 if whether she witch times or not (unless you have kill confirms out of grabs).
DI does affect combos, but if a Bayonetta players can actually use her it can be reacted to.

Overall she's just a sour experience for everybody but the person playing her.

Can she beaten? Of course. Doesn't make her any less boring. I personally don't mind since it's a challenge to my patience, and that's always good to put to the test.
I see no reason to ban her since she's actually part of the game, but she's going the soft-ban way from community disapproval and I don't like that. Hopefully a nerf could fix this, but I'm not counting on it.

Shout-outs to all those Bayonetta mains that simply don't give a **** about being hated. You guys rock.

Fly them to the moon
and let them die among the stars
Let them see what the losing screen is like
on a, Tourneys and online
in other words, hold this L
in other words, Bayo, kill me

Fill my heart with salt
And let me whine for ever more
You are all I cry for
All I detest and abhor
In other words, a nerf for you
In other words, **** you

...

Never let me post again.

 

[Darksydaz]

it's late so i'll address this quickly then get some sleep...

I am well aware of vectoring. I said I don't play Smash 4 often but I still play it and I am still well aware of how the mechanics work. You are still ignoring the fact that Bayonetta's combos, particularly with regards to her up b are predominantly vertical. Vectoring only takes effect when calculating horizontal knockback and is completely irrelevant when calculating vertical knockback.

Witch Twist Travels Vertical but ejects the opponent Horizontal, dABK launches opponents vertical and ABK sends the opponent horizontal but with a slight vertical knockback. Her combos have been proven to be DI'able and SDI'able in more recent matches showcasing the character. MK (pre-patch) had a vertical ladder combo that killed off the top. Bayonetta's dABK pops them up vertically but you can DI this.

So I missed a couple of safe moves when listing, how does that change my point at all? You're still have yet to prove that her neutral is unsafe. It may not be as good as other characters but it's not bad by any measure. And seriously? Did you really just say that that her moves are unsafe is used after an aerial special? Well then who in their right mind would throw out a move after using an aerial special in the first place? You have demonstrated that her neutral is only unsafe under specific circumstances that no competent player would ever put themselves in.

Her neutral isn't Ganon bad, But she is a Bait and Punish character at core. She lacks frame data on her normals, rolls and spot dodge. She barely has combos out of shield and such. Her OOS options are limited compared to other top tier peer, Sheik. She has Witch Twist and Witch Time OOS. Average walk and run speed. Her air Mobility is great, but she is a character designed around the opponent making mistakes or doing not-true-combos. Aerial Side-B is safe on shield, Grounded is not safe. Her defensive options are Witch Twist, Bat Within, Witch Time. Once bayonetta is in her shield, it's an uphill battle from there because of her poor OOS options. She lacks the moves to pose a threat and disrupt neutral say like Lucas PK fire, Needles, Lasers, Missles, Lloyd Rocket...

And Bayonetta gets increased (serious) landing lag from using her Aerial Specials. If your question is "who would use witch twist or dABK in the air?" then you don't understand how Bayonetta works.

A lack of results? Here's some things you need to take into account: many of the top players are refusing to use Bayonetta whether or not this is justified is not up to me to decide but that's the primary reason why she hasn't been winning majors, no character has achieved these kind of results and caused this huge of a ****storm to brew up immediately upon release, and you could also argue that the lack of results is because she is new and not yet optimized like other characters. And no, 1st place is not the only position that matters when discussing this type of thing and locals do matter when talking about this because that's where the majority of the playerbase is.

Results at locals? Well yeah, people don't really understand how to fight her. She is a top tier bait and punish character that has different weaknesses that have to be attacked than just force into shield with normals then punish with grab game. You do predicable stuff, you get punished for being predictable. She'll probably have better results because you have Bayo players pushing her meta. But there is only so much optimization that comes with a bait and punish character. And as far as top players go, she has bad frame data. She comes off as a really defensive character in that aspect... wait... defensive character... like Rosalina... wait... Dabuz plays Bayonetta in doubles. So when you speak of others know why they aren't playing her, and know it's not all cause of the controversy of "she's too strong".

but you are correct on one thing, no character has achieved these kinds of results and caused so much controversy. Like a character you can't just Fair to death being used against a community in a meta where most strings are secretly frame traps and not true strings. She's so unfair that she punishes my non-true strings and is the only character I can't use my flowchart combo and frame traps against. Forget baiting out Witch Time twice so it's garbage for 20 seconds, forget Bayonetta is new and people won't think to punish her Landing Lag, Bayonetta is causing so much disruption because the combo I learned on youtube that isn't true is getting punished. She hasn't won a major (yet) and a lot of players are taking advantage of the fact that she's different, but she's unfair and that must be a problem since she's winning locals but getting beat at majors.

If you excuse me, I'm going pick up a real character like MewTwo and go win a Major, because Nair > Footstool > Disable > Smash is ok, but Witch Time and Witch Twist needs to be burned at the stake...

 

[Terotrous]

Thats because people are scrubs (at least as far as SF4's online modes are concerned). People could mash out DPs mid-combo in SF4. Bad players doing dumb stuff and it working is nothing new.

Please actually watch a Street Fighter 4 tournament. You will see pros doing reversal DP during blockstrings as well. It's not a dumb tactic, because if you get too complacent with your blocking, the opponent can stop their blockstring early and set up 50/50s or grabs. It's also not unheardof to deliberately drop a combo in order to get a mixup where the opponent doesn't expect it.

Of course, bad players can mash out DP as well, but the difference is that they do it all the time whereas the pros are strategic in when they choose to do it.

And after even just 2 uses, WT stops being a viable option for a while, as the duration will become near useless.

Compared to the overall length of a typical Smash 4 match the duration isn't that severe.

Good thing 'gief got an air SPD in SF5. Now, if he conditions you to jump, free air SPD.

Even then you'd have to read the jump, if you whiff grounded SPD you don't have time to do air SPD.

In any case, even if you feel Zangief is a poor analogy, this concept of establishing a risky option clearly exists.

If they bait the mashed out SPD, then they get a free punish.

Also true of Witch Time, which is why it's a risk, but it's a risk that you control. If you know the stakes are high and the potential reward is low, you can just not go for it (or you can go for it anyway, because the opponent also knows the stakes aren't in your favour and they likely won't expect it).

 

[Ghidorah14]

Please actually watch a Street Fighter 4 tournament. You will see pros doing reversal DP during blockstrings as well. It's not a dumb tactic, because if you get too complacent with your blocking, the opponent can stop their blockstring early and set up 50/50s or grabs. It's also not unheardof to deliberately drop a combo in order to get a mixup where the opponent doesn't expect it.

Of course, bad players can mash out DP as well, but the difference is that they do it all the time whereas the pros are strategic in when they choose to do it.

So you bring up people doing reversal DPs despite the risk, then say "oh no, I was refering to pro players." Um, wouldnt pro players know where and when they could reversal DP? If they're being strategic about it (and not doing it "all the time" as you claim), then they're taking calculated risks.

But w/e. Point is, both witch time and reversals are read based. Even if she doesnt eat a punish, bayo still has something to lose for whiffing WT.

Compared to the overall length of a typical Smash 4 match the duration isn't that severe.

It IS severe when you cant even get a smash attack off because the move is staled. What does the length of the match have to do with anything?

Even then you'd have to read the jump, if you whiff grounded SPD you don't have time to do air SPD.

Um, no ****? Hence why I said "condition the opponent to jump."

Also true of Witch Time, which is why it's a risk, but it's a risk that you control. If you know the stakes are high and the potential reward is low, you can just not go for it (or you can go for it anyway, because the opponent also knows the stakes aren't in your favour and they likely won't expect it).

So if both players know WT is a risk not worth going for...then you dont have to worry about getting witch timed. If the reward is low, as you said, why worry about it?

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

WHOA... I'll have to try that.

Obviously Jigglypuff is number one, people just don't know it.
I'm just kidding. That player was skilled, not the Bayo's fault. It would take some pretty precise timing to land rest with a opponent attacking you.

[QUOTE="Ghidorah14, post: 21096817, member: 314610"
So if both players know WT is a risk not worth going for...then you dont have to worry about getting witch timed. If the reward is low, as you said, why worry about it?[/QUOTE]

Well, if the opponent pressures you and you're panicking, some people would try a WT in desperation, miss, and get punished for it.

 

[Nobie]

I mainly see people talking about how boring Bayonetta is to fight, but does anyone have fun fighting against her? I've only ever fought her once in a tournament, but even though I got 2-0'd I thought it was a valuable experience, and not once did I feel bored. I didn't even know proper DI at the time so it was mostly me guessing a lot.

The thing I find different about Bayonetta versus previously labeled boring play styles is that I think battling Bayonetta is much more interactive compared to, say, a campy Sonic or a Customs Villager. When approaching Sonic, he holds all the cards. When you whiff against Sonic, he can punish you from halfway across the stage. When Villager plants that sapling, you're not just being forced to make the first move, you're throwing yourself into a specifically volatile situation. There are similarities to what it's like to fight Bayo, but just the fact that you CAN dance around with her and jockey for position makes a significant difference to me. If you bait out a Witch Time, you can get a free punish, but if you bait out a Spin Dash from Sonic you get... ???