Banning Bayonetta in Tournaments

[Deleted member 269706]

Holy crap are you serious!?

Where did you pull this quote from?

 

[Darksydaz]

Holy crap are you serious!?

Not to get too far off topic, but I really like Meta Knight. I stopped playing him when I found how Overpowered he was. The Ledge Mechanics in Brawl are similar to what they are in Melee, which is every time you grab the edge you get ledge Invincibility. It was just easier for MK because Shuttle Loop is invincible on start up and if you drop from the ledge, you can do Shuttle Loop forming a long period of invincibility where you can't touch MK. The ledge regrab rule was made to counter this MK strategy.

And yes, this is the monster that everyone is comparing Bayonetta with. Saying she could essentially become this, which is why i'm not really into the BrawlMK argument that people are throwing out.

-Ledge Grabbing
> MK can shuttle loop or dimensional cape to Ledge Stall
+ Bayonetta cannot get ledge invincibility on regrab (engine mechanics)

-Normals
> MK's sword strikes are hard to challenge because you cannot clash with them
+ Bayonetta has bad frame data which makes it hard for her to contest opponents OOS like Shiek can.

-Neutral
> MK had superior roll, spot dodge and air dodge abilities, along with an incredible Nair as an OOS, along with Shuttle Loop Invincibility
+ Bayonetta has terrible evasion data that is only mitigated by bat within.

-Combos
> MK can Fair (like pre-patch Sm4sh Shiek) you off the stage and eventually to your death if you are unaware.
+ Bayonetta can kill you off the top if you DI improperly or do not mix up your DI and SDI.

-Cheap Tactics
> MK's Shuttle Loop is invincible on start up and leads to a Glide, promoting his Insane recovery.
> MK's Tornado gained priority for as many times you pressed it, allowing it to eat up certain charged projectiles eventually.
> MK's Dimensional Cape could become indefinite if you mashed the C Stick-up.
> MK can cancel Landing lag with a Glide Attack
+ Bayonetta has Witch Time, which can slow down time upon an opponent hitting this counter. Time of Usage goes down significantly as Witch Time is used (See Shulk Vision)
+ Bayonetta can use Witch Twists which has insane priority (ie. Meta Knight Tornado) but cannot beat out Projectiles and you cannot move while this is active
+ Bayonetta can mitigate her weakness by using Witch Time before touching the ground, still incurring a lag of some kind upon hitting the ground.

Please someone correct me if I'm wrong. but these are some of the comparisons that people are afraid of when they speak of BrawlMK and compare the time of dominance that BrawlMK has, despite Bayonetta not having the BrawlMK options. True, she could get this bad, but she has a LONG way before she becomes BrawlMK.

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

New
↑
Holy crap are you serious!?
Not to get too far off topic, but I really like Meta Knight. I stopped playing him when I found how Overpowered he was. The Ledge Mechanics in Brawl are similar to what they are in Melee, which is every time you grab the edge you get ledge Invincibility. It was just easier for MK because Shuttle Loop is invincible on start up and if you drop from the ledge, you can do Shuttle Loop forming a long period of invincibility where you can't touch MK. The ledge regrab rule was made to counter this MK strategy.

And yes, this is the monster that everyone is comparing Bayonetta with. Saying she could essentially become this, which is why i'm not really into the BrawlMK argument that people are throwing out.

-Ledge Grabbing
> MK can shuttle loop or dimensional cape to Ledge Stall
+ Bayonetta cannot get ledge invincibility on regrab (engine mechanics)

-Normals
> MK's sword strikes are hard to challenge because you cannot clash with them
+ Bayonetta has bad frame data which makes it hard for her to contest opponents OOS like Shiek can.

-Neutral
> MK had superior roll, spot dodge and air dodge abilities, along with an incredible Nair as an OOS, along with Shuttle Loop Invincibility
+ Bayonetta has terrible evasion data that is only mitigated by bat within.

-Combos
> MK can Fair (like pre-patch Sm4sh Shiek) you off the stage and eventually to your death if you are unaware.
+ Bayonetta can kill you off the top if you DI improperly or do not mix up your DI and SDI.

-Cheap Tactics
> MK's Shuttle Loop is invincible on start up and leads to a Glide, promoting his Insane recovery.
> MK's Tornado gained priority for as many times you pressed it, allowing it to eat up certain charged projectiles eventually.
> MK's Dimensional Cape could become indefinite if you mashed the C Stick-up.
> MK can cancel Landing lag with a Glide Attack
+ Bayonetta has Witch Time, which can slow down time upon an opponent hitting this counter. Time of Usage goes down significantly as Witch Time is used (See Shulk Vision)
+ Bayonetta can use Witch Twists which has insane priority (ie. Meta Knight Tornado) but cannot beat out Projectiles and you cannot move while this is active
+ Bayonetta can mitigate her weakness by using Witch Time before touching the ground, still incurring a lag of some kind upon hitting the ground.

Please someone correct me if I'm wrong. but these are some of the comparisons that people are afraid of when they speak of BrawlMK and compare the time of dominance that BrawlMK has, despite Bayonetta not having the BrawlMK options. True, she could get this bad, but she has a LONG way before she becomes BrawlMK.

#963Darksydaz, 9 minutes ago
Last edited: 9 minutes ago

That's ballistic. I didn't know it was that bad. Good lord

 

[Respect38]

Arguing Bayo-MK comparisons are silly, because Bayonetta is not MK. She's ICs--the difference being that we don't have the equivalent of MK in Sm4sh to neutralize her.

In a sense, MK is making this doubly hard to succeed in banning Bayonetta, because, on the one hand, his banning conversation [which was much more mainstream than the "ban ICs" conversation, even though they have similar validity, in my opinion] has resulted in a lot of people wanting to grasp at a likely inaccurate Bayo-MK comparison. On the other hand, if MK had not existed at all, then ICs probably would have been banned, and people would better understand why a Smash scene could potentially want to ban a character for reasons other than overpoweredness.

What a shame, because I feel like Bayo-IC comparisons are pretty spot-on, and yet the fact that ICs were never banned means that the comparison doesn't even mean that much. Good luck on grasping for the Bayo-MK comparisons though, guys.

And hopefully we will have learned better by Sma5h.

 

[Darksydaz]

Well, i don't agree with the Bayo-MK or the Bayo-IC's comparison because there is alot more you can do to escape the Bayo Combos than what you can do to escape the IC chain grab... like the comparison of not being able to play isn't there because there are more sources speaking out about the ability to DI and SDI Bayonetta's combos, Something that people argued tooth and nail in this forum. If she was a "one man iceclimber" then i'd be inclined to agree and actually think she would've won pound if that was the case since she's more mobile than IC ever hope to be.

I still feel like people that say Bayo is OP (I agree with strong) haven't labbed against her, or play people that don't know the matchup and dominate in such a fashion that they feel like they can trample over everyone. My only question about those bayonetta players is if they'll show up at EVO or APEX since they missed their "easy money" at POUND.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

Everyone needs to stop comparing Bayonetta to other characters altogether. She is not like any other character we've ever seen in smash. Yes, one could argue that she is pretty overpowered in a sense similar to Brawl MK, and yes, one could argue that she can kill you at 0% like the ICs. The fact of the matter is, so many aspects of this character are so different to what we've seen.

Reason A: Recovery
Bayonetta is one of the few characters who can actually act after using their up B. As a mechanic, it's fairly rare to be able to do anything after using a recovery, but not unheard of. Aside from Bayo the only characters who can act out of their upB include BowJow (very limited), G&W (no jump), Sonic, Mega Man, ROB (no hitbox), JigglyPuff(extremely limited), Yoshi (not really a recovery move), and arguably Cloud. Of all of those characters, none of them are able to use their up B a second time other than Yoshi (which isn't truely a recovery) or ROB (should he interrupt his recovery), and those who can don't get anywhere close to the benefit that Bayo gets.

Reason B: Combos
Her combos also work unlike any other character's combos we've ever seen before. Generally, if you're going up against a fast faller, the combos you'll need to use will be different than the combos you'll be using on a floaty character. For Bayonetta, 90% of her combos work on the majority of the cast. Why? Because Bayonetta's side and up special moves calculate knockback as if every character weighed the same amount (roughly Cloud's weight). Source. That in itself is ridiculous, Bayonetta can play against every character practically the same way once she is in the advantage state.

I could go on to talk about how she has a plethora of ways to kill you from 0%, but I think we're all well aware of how much power she has in that regard.

Reason C: Witch Time
I know, everyone talks about this move, it's getting old, but there's nothing like it. A move which allows you to have your way with your opponent for up to 3 seconds...Not to mention it has the best endlag of any counter BY FAR. Take a look at this table if you're skeptical. Witch Time can set up for combos, kills, or just about anything else the player wants. If she whiffs a WT, and then hits one, the duration goes down by 1.25 seconds. Yet to regain full duration, she only has to wait 20 seconds. Can be baited, but the window to punish it is exceptionally small compared to several other moves in this game. Like, there are characters who have more landing lag than the endlag of WT.

Reason D: Combo Breaker
On top of her amazing combo game, she has the ability to escape combos much easier than any character in the cast due to Bat Within. While both her airdodge and spotdodge technically start on frame 5, Bat Within triggers on frame 1 meaning that she can escape combos that are true on every other character. (Ryu and Marth have frame 1 combo breakers (TRSK and Aerial Dolphin Slash) but both of those moves leave the characters in extremely vulnerable states). Plus when she escapes a combo, she regains stage control and can potentially switch which character is in the advantage state, and which character is in the disadvantage state.

Reason E: Bullet Arts
No it's nothing exceptional but her bullet arts are still decent moves nonetheless being able to tack on a little bit of chip damage here and there. She can miss an aerial or smash attack AND STILL GIVE YOU DAMAGE. No, it's not a lot, but it's something. Not to mention, the bullets can be used as a way to force the opponent to approach.

Bottom line is, she has tools we really can't compare to anything else we've ever seen in any iteration of Smash. You can compare her to some characters in a few aspects, but as a whole, you cannot compare her to Brawl Meta Knight or ICs, Pre-Patch Diddy or Sheik, or anyone else because she is so abstract in terms of character design.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Bayonetta's side and up special moves calculate knockback as if every character weighed the same amount (roughly Cloud's weight). Source. That in itself is ridiculous, Bayonetta can play against every character practically the same way once she is in the advantage state.

At the same time, you can DI the same way for every character, and gravity and fall speed still affects her combos.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

At the same time, you can DI the same way for every character, and gravity and fall speed still affects her combos.

Well DI is pretty universal when being comboed. Like I have no idea when anyone should ever DI in after Ness's dthrow at low percents if they wanted a good outcome. The latter half of your statement is true, although gravity and fall speed don't mean much while in a combo when you're weight is completely negated.

 

[Scribe]

At the same time, you can DI the same way for every character, and gravity and fall speed still affects her combos.

Yep. It's not like this discovery somehow makes the discovery about how to DI her moves no longer apply. If anything, it means that any ways of dealing with it would be more universal. Besides, falling speed and gravity are still factors in this, and many throws calculate knockback the same way.

Well DI is pretty universal when being comboed. Like I have no idea when anyone should ever DI in after Ness's dthrow at low percents if they wanted a good outcome. The latter half of your statement is true, although gravity and fall speed don't mean much while in a combo when you're weight is completely negated.

Actually, it does, because both values are completely independent of a character's weight. That's why we can have light fast fallers like Fox or heavy floaties like Samus and Yoshi.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Yep. It's not like this discovery somehow makes the discovery about how to DI her moves no longer apply. If anything, it means that any ways of dealing with it would be more universal.

This mechanic benefits heavies then.
Combos stop working at the same % as lightweights despite having more weight (hurtbox size not in consideration).
You don't have to DI differently so learning how DI Bayonetta's only take one session.

 

[Muster]

Beep Boop

I haven't tested it but Gravity doesn't seem to apply either. 90% sure.

Fall speed may not either.

I'll confirm when I get home.

Straight From Kurogane in the 4BR tier list thread.
I believe this means that Bayonetta's combos are universal, but it also means that escape SDI/DI is universal.

 

[Terotrous]

You could say the same about every character with a counter, right? With perfect reaction, you can never approach a character with a counter!
The big problem with bayo is that hitting the counter only once is so extremely rewarding, that's why you have to be extra careful (but not never attack)...

I'd like to point out that my post was actually quoting the video, and I was ribbing on the absurdity of the "just don't attack" logic. Clearly, attempting to bait the counter is the right move, though the risk / reward for her guessing right is completely nuts.

 

[Ghidorah14]

Shoutouts to people who actually believe bayonetta is worse than brawk MK.

Not even close.

 

[FallenHero]

Shoutouts to people who actually believe bayonetta is worse than brawk MK.

Not even close.

I think most of us here actually know that she isn't as good as Brawl MK.....Anyways, I think you guys are spending too much time just talking about the people comparing her to Brawl MK. If anything, she is probably closer to being like ICs.

I know I said this in an earlier post, but I find the amount of people who chose anything other than the third choice in the poll disturbing.

 

[ARGHETH]

Shoutouts to people who actually believe bayonetta is worse than brawk MK.

Not even close.

I'd like to mention that linking a video of MK against Pikachu, Samus, and Bowser, of all characters, isn't really the best idea.
ESAM also beat Nairo's MK before this.

 

[Ghidorah14]

I'd like to mention that linking a video of MK against Pikachu, Samus, and Bowser, of all characters, isn't really the best idea.
ESAM also beat Nairo's MK before this.

The characters really didnt matter. I just posted that because, well, look at it.

Those hitboxes, those movement options...bayos got nothing on that.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

The characters really didnt matter. I just posted that because, well, look at it.

Those hitboxes, those movement options...bayos got nothing on that.

Newsflash stop comparing characters between games

****ing Brawl zelda would probably be top tier in smash 4 lol

 

[Ghidorah14]

Newsflash stop comparing characters between games

****ing Brawl zelda would probably be top tier in smash 4 lol

Uh, dont look at me. I'm not the one(s) doing it. I just pointed how silly a comparison it is.

 

[ARGHETH]

Uh, dont look at me. I'm not the one(s) doing it. I just pointed how silly a comparison it is.

Except you're extending it, because there wasn't that much Bayo-MK discussion over the last couple pages.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Uh, dont look at me. I'm not the one(s) doing it. I just pointed how silly a comparison it is.

The video you posted indicates otherwise.

Regardless comparison between bayo and mk is useless if it's character vs character. To compare them it needs to be in the context of the game:

Bad example: bayo is not like MK because look at how fast brawl mk was!!

Good example: bayo is not like MK because she isn't used 30%+ of the time in tournaments

(I made numbers up for the examples btw)

 

[Shaya]

Most people struggle in analysis and just fall upon literal comparisons. It's a difficult skill one can easily lose through years of non-study / "practice". Personally it took me almost my entire high school life before I stopped being upset over "wow they're talking about oranges at the same time as APPLES!!!!!111!" and it's still very dull and worn out in contrast to years gone by.
Nearly every post I've made about ICs here makes no mention that Bayonetta is literally ICs but rather has similar impacts on the psyche of players and also has somewhat comparable contextual circumstances, but nearly every direct response to it expresses that Bayonetta is literally not ICs hence "how can you compare the two?"
Intermixing of conversation between people with vastly different abilities and experiences is the bane of the internets, I guess.

Also, because the neutral game argument is fantastic and I know I'm wasting my time.
Neutral in smash can be simplified significantly not by "bad frame data, poor base mobility stats" [or whatever other things people keep bringing up that means "bayo's neutral is objectively terrible"]
but by your out of shield options, your dash grab range, your dash to shield length and your safety against shield.
Because shield tends to mean a lot.
An over reliance on shield can push an opponent into a disadvantageous position which is difficult to get around; so although a character may not have direct guaranteed throw follow ups, if you're suddenly forced to the ledge while having to deal with 5 other possibilities that are more potent, it's kinda lose lose for a lot of characters in neutral.

Shields lock a player from doing actions other than non-native oos options for 18 frames. If a character can threaten people in a non-reactive way with stuff that is safe on shield, then you have a good neutral game.
If the character's poor mobility is directly addressed by amazing special options, you likely don't have the same issues as say, Ganondorf.
To Note: ZSS Flip Jump and Sheik BF are not used "in neutral" because they are not "safe on shield" nor are they "unreactable" [although they're quite difficult to react to all the time] both moves have twice the start up of Bayonetta's side-b, and other than their auto cancels (which aren't too difficult to manage) they are all a lot laggier, fortunately those characters have naturally good ground and air speeds. But Corrin has a fantastic neutral because of range, burst abilities that are pretty safe (7 frame dash to shield, a pretty good dash grab, multi hitting dodge/sh beating dash attack) but average or worse mobility and because of the general strength of abilities excluding their start ups produce fear which impacts how neutral is played.

Oh and before someone says "BUT MOBILITY MEANS A LOT", yes it definitely means a lot. But if start up/frame data meant everything, then Zero Suit would be "objectively terrible neutral" too. She has a frame 1 jab as a saving grace (Bayonetta also has saving graces) with her entire ground game being unsafe (well spaced ftilt as a mild exception) and her safest tools requiring 30 frames of start up (she cannot hit characters on the ground with rising aerials) due to only her landing aerials being safe. Bayo in contrast has up-b, retreating nair and a safe down tilt that covers everything I would otherwise want to make ZSS' neutral "not objectively terrible", with great burst mobility options significantly safer than mine as well.
And yet, with ZSS' objectively terrible neutral, she still has one radically better than most characters in the cast. Crazy. And why? Because she does have some scary punish options (many incredibly risky) including out of shield and things which are safe on shield executed properly (with steep/counter play rich requirements).

 

[Darksydaz]

I'm sorry for bringing up the Brawl MK discussion, just had to remind people what we are comparing Bayonetta's options to...

Reason A: Recovery
Bayonetta is one of the few characters who can actually act after using their up B. As a mechanic, it's fairly rare to be able to do anything after using a recovery, but not unheard of. Aside from Bayo the only characters who can act out of their upB include BowJow (very limited), G&W (no jump), Sonic, Mega Man, ROB (no hitbox), JigglyPuff(extremely limited), Yoshi (not really a recovery move), and arguably Cloud. Of all of those characters, none of them are able to use their up B a second time other than Yoshi (which isn't truely a recovery) or ROB (should he interrupt his recovery), and those who can don't get anywhere close to the benefit that Bayo gets.

Also her Witch Twist goes the height of Little Mac? All of the characters sans Yoshi, Cloud and Jigglypuff (who cannot act out her Up B in the manner we are speaking) have great vertical distance on their single Up B. Hers is broken up to 1.) reflect the Witch Twist Mechanic in her game which allows her to 2.) Aid her combo game in Smash. Also with that benefit comes the burden, in the form of.... you guessed it... HER LANDING LAG. She hits the floor after all her aerials considering her life for the second? second and a half worth of frames she is there for. As a mechanic, you'd be hard pressed to find a character whose landing lag increases as they use their Air Mobility Options.

Reason B: Combos
Her combos also work unlike any other character's combos we've ever seen before. Generally, if you're going up against a fast faller, the combos you'll need to use will be different than the combos you'll be using on a floaty character. For Bayonetta, 90% of her combos work on the majority of the cast. Why? Because Bayonetta's side and up special moves calculate knockback as if every character weighed the same amount (roughly Cloud's weight). Source. That in itself is ridiculous, Bayonetta can play against every character practically the same way once she is in the advantage state.

True, this is kinda OP. But look at it like this, if her knockback wasn't adjusted like such, she WOULD kill Sheik, ZSS, and other lightweights really quick from a 0-Death because they'll pop up really high for the second dABK and from there, they'd die from the top rather easily.

Reason C: Witch Time
I know, everyone talks about this move, it's getting old, but there's nothing like it. A move which allows you to have your way with your opponent for up to 3 seconds...Not to mention it has the best endlag of any counter BY FAR. Take a look at this table if you're skeptical. Witch Time can set up for combos, kills, or just about anything else the player wants. If she whiffs a WT, and then hits one, the duration goes down by 1.25 seconds. Yet to regain full duration, she only has to wait 20 seconds. Can be baited, but the window to punish it is exceptionally small compared to several other moves in this game. Like, there are characters who have more landing lag than the endlag of WT.

Yeah, but after two consecutive uses, Witch Time is really off the table. Which is why baiting it is an option. You can bait for the punish, but making her use it to remove some of the duration by a bit, is great in itself. So remember, in order to activate Witch Time, it takes two people. If you get predicable and she reads you... who's fault is it for being predictable?

Reason D: Combo Breaker
On top of her amazing combo game, she has the ability to escape combos much easier than any character in the cast due to Bat Within. While both her airdodge and spotdodge technically start on frame 5, Bat Within triggers on frame 1 meaning that she can escape combos that are true on every other character. (Ryu and Marth have frame 1 combo breakers (TRSK and Aerial Dolphin Slash) but both of those moves leave the characters in extremely vulnerable states). Plus when she escapes a combo, she regains stage control and can potentially switch which character is in the advantage state, and which character is in the disadvantage state.

You cannot escape combos that are true, hence the true combo part.

Bat Within works for people who don't have true combos. You can bait this out and use this to continue a combo due to it's lag. Also it is possible to Bat Within back into a combo. if it was reliable, i'd 100% agree with this. But bat within is a gamble in itself that can be baited out by really good players

Nearly every post I've made about ICs here makes no mention that Bayonetta is literally ICs but rather has similar impacts on the psyche of players and also has somewhat comparable contextual circumstances, but nearly every direct response to it expresses that Bayonetta is literally not ICs hence "how can you compare the two?"

If your comparison between the two is "don't get grabbed" to "don't get combo'd" then the psychology is the same. If you are comparing the helplessness of a chain grab that cannot be escaped to a combo that can be DI or SDI'd against, then Bayonetta is nothing like the Ice Climbers.

Also, Bayo Safe on Shield options are few, opposed to ZSS and Shiek. Her neutral is better than Ganondorf but in the end, they both have the same game plan. They are Bait and Punish characters in the end. ZSS has a better neutral because of cool things like Wavebounce Paralyzer, Nair, Fair, hard to punish Dash Attack, better dodge frame data, and Mobility. I think the only thing that Bayonetta excels at over ZSS in the neutral is her punish game is wicked sick.

But yes, Neutral does come down to mobility, frame data, and how easily is it to put your opponent into a disadvantageous state safely. Then no, Bayonetta does not have a good neutral game, her Neutral is focused on getting a reaction out of the opponent.

 

[Shaya]

Also, Bayo Safe on Shield options are few, opposed to ZSS and Shiek. Her neutral is better than Ganondorf but in the end, they both have the same game plan. They are Bait and Punish characters in the end. ZSS has a better neutral because of cool things like Wavebounce Paralyzer, Nair, Fair, hard to punish Dash Attack, better dodge frame data, and Mobility. I think the only thing that Bayonetta excels at over ZSS in the neutral is her punish game is wicked sick.

But yes, Neutral does come down to mobility, frame data, and how easily is it to put your opponent into a disadvantageous state safely. Then no, Bayonetta does not have a good neutral game, her Neutral is focused on getting a reaction out of the opponent.

"But yes..."; I stated that neutral in smash has more to do with abusing shield and dealing with shield and you aren't considering it in your reply. Mobility allows one to play around shields better, that's for sure (but it effects advantage state / follow up ability a lot more), better dodge frames also help (for aggressive / mix up purposes).

So if we're talking about how easy it is to put an opponent into disadvantage, then Bayonetta has it easier and safer than ZSS does (unless you consider mobility is 100% of everything). Having safe and fast start up ground moves out do her in immediate capabilities (i.e. rising nair/other aerials, down tilt, and up-b with side-b away if whiff). ZSS Neutral is comparably all about hard reads or the opponent engaging inappropriately, because she explicitly does not have fast start up conditions and safety at the same time.

Fair is not really a good move in neutral for ZSS....
Dash attack is like -30 on block; what the flying fudge. It does have good start up and range though. But this is a punish, not a neutral tool by any stretch of the imagination and gives 8% and close to nothing else.

ZSS has no applicable auto cancels in neutral, with a minimum air time of 24 frames with 4 frame jump squat. She has zair, bair, nair, up air that are relatively safe on shield. Down Smash with 20 frames start up that is less safe but still relatively safe on shield.

Bayonetta has all the same landing aerial safety as Zero Suit Samus, with applicable auto cancels that are around the same safety as her landing options.
She also has a grounded down tilt that set ups for everything and is good enough to compete with Marth's toolset designed around pokes (watch Pugwest or Mr.E vs Saj at Pound; I don't think it's up on youtube as I cannot find it, but if you haven't seen it you should).
If a character like Marth, entirely focused around neutral based footsies, is completely outclassed by Bayonetta doing the exact same game plan he would, then I can't see Bayonetta not having a very well above average neutral game.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

If a character like Marth, entirely focused around neutral based footsies, is completely outclassed by Bayonetta doing the EXACT SAME THINGS AS HE WOULD, then I can't have faith you understand Smash/your character if you think her neutral is bad.

I could have swear Marth has a poor neutral due to his over reliance on tippers. Was Smashwiki wrong?

 

[Shaya]

I could have swear Marth has a poor neutral due to his over reliance on tippers. Was Smashwiki wrong?

Yes, very wrong, especially if it's because "he has to rely on tippers".
Marth's neutral would be arguably "poor" more due to gaining little reward from being successful in neutral compared to top tiers (you don't fear him) and a poor-ish approach as he doesn't have dynamic means of dealing with shield.

Marth converts continually in neutral with 10-20% damage and maybe positional advantage. If he could consistently convert 20% minimum and perhaps higher, he'd likely be a very threatening high tier.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Yes, very wrong, especially if it's because "he has to rely on tippers".
Marth's neutral would be arguably "poor" more due to gaining little reward from being successful in neutral compared to top tiers and a poor-ish approach as he doesn't have dynamic means of dealing with shield/attrition.

This combination of high ending lag on his moves and his requirement for careful spacing result in a lackluster neutral game, as none of his approach tools are particularly reliable or consistent, and this is exacerbated by his lack of a projectile.

Not only does Marth struggle to win in neutral, but his conversions are unreliable and weak.
....
As such, Marth has poor options against shields, and Shield Breaker is highly punishable if predicted.

Taken from ssbwiki.com
Is there any errors?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

ssbwiki is an awful source of information and should only ever be used as a loose guide.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

ssbwiki is an awful source of information and should only ever be used as a loose guide.

I find it accurate most of the time. And I use your site too.

Actually I find something weird when I compared your site with ssbwiki.com.
Your site said Marth's fully charged SB deal 50 shield damage, but ssbwiki.com's Shield damage said it is 30.
So.... can you double check for me please?

 

[Shaya]

Taken from ssbwiki.com
Is there any errors?

Well, it's easier to think of it another way.
He's been patched multiple times since release and this may be overly outdated.
His requirements for careful spacing have not been seen as a problem in previous games, in his recent big patch a lot of his tippers became 2x as 'large' in hitbox priority as they were before. But in Brawl he had similarly small sized tippers to pre-buff Marth and it wasn't seen as detrimental.
In the "neutral game" article his basic tools are noted as good for neutral in Melee/Brawl while not being drastically different to now. How can my one reliable true source of information have contradictionz!?!

He has a notable amount of disjoint and great start up on a lot of moves, his ending lag isn't as abysmal as it used to be. He beats people in neutral by virtue of the fact he out ranges, disjoints and outspeeds most incoming opponent choices. They, used appropriately, are also safe on block.

The "errors" would be that the understanding and definitions of these abstract terms are pretty awful.
Being able to express them nicely involves being enveloped in the paradoxical doublethink that rots the brain.

I find it accurate most of the time.

It's hard to **** up literal data things (although 32 shield damage vs 50 is their lack of hex to decimal conversion), but if you didn't really understand something in the first place and take what is said on ssbwiki at face value, what are you going to get?

"Shock and horror"
high level understanding usually comes from discussing, analysing and experiencing things at a high level. There is rarely a shortcut.
People who try to provide objective data do their best to make things clear, but even then someone's going to read "low priority" and have no idea and will take it at face value meaning "it's low priority".
"Poor neutral" is the exact same thing. Words without meaning to most people but used as if they do.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I find it accurate most of the time. And I use your site too.

Actually I find something weird when I compared your site with ssbwiki.com.
Your site said Marth's fully charged SB deal 50 shield damage, but ssbwiki.com's Shield damage said it is 30.
So.... can you double check for me please?

ssbwiki has a lot of raw data wrong for some reason. I don't think they properly source from my site, they seem to half source from it and then make up the rest as they go.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Well, it's easier to think of it another way.
He's been patched multiple times since release and this may be overly outdated.
His requirements for careful spacing have not been seen as a problem in previous games, in his recent big patch a lot of his tippers become 2x as 'large' in hitbox priority as they were before making it easier. But in Brawl he had similarly small sized tippers to pre-buff Marth and it wasn't seen as detrimental.
In the "neutral game" article his basic tools are noted as good for neutral in Melee/Brawl while not being drastically different to now.

I say the reason why it wasn't a problem for Brawl Marth was Fair had a low landing lag. With more landing lag on Fair, he has a harder time in the neutral. Of course, this is just me.

(hint: 30 shield damage vs 50 is their lack of hex to decimal conversion)

I am confused at what you mean.

EDIT: Thanks KH!!
I know 32 = 50, but seeing 30 confused me.

 

[Shaya]

I say the reason why it wasn't a problem for Brawl Marth was Fair had a low landing lag. With more landing lag on Fair, he has a harder time in the neutral. Of course, this is just me.

This is a significant factor (although a literal comparison between games) - but their raw end lags are barely different and their interactions with shield are comparatively the same - engine and near-universal design changes have to be considered. Tipper neutral air and down tilt are safer on block in smash4 than they are in Brawl although they both have more end lag. But all landing lag data in Smash4 is generally worse than in Brawl.

In contrast, Marth has more range in this game than in Brawl too.

I am confused at what you mean.

EDIT: Thanks KH!!
I know 32 = 50, but seeing 30 confused me.

There are prime sources, secondary and tertiary sources.
Things get easily muddied when you go down tiers - especially when not directly referenced or checked by others.
Someone saw 0x32 and it ended up as decimal 30. How it got there is up to your imagination.
If you were aware of primary sources (the data dump pictured in KH's post) you wouldn't need to be confused.

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

Great, now we went from comparisons of Bayonetta to talking about Marth's neutral game. We should probably get back on topic, just bringing that up.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

In contrast, Marth has more range in this game than in Brawl too.

But the problem was many characters got a bigger range buff.

Great, now we went from comparisons of Bayonetta to talking about Marth's neutral game. We should probably get back on topic, just bringing that up.

****, my bad.

 

[LordShade67]

SmashWiki's Corrin article considers Shulk's FSmash longer. Yeah. SmashWiki articles are best taken with a grain of salt.

So as to not stray from the topic, eh, I'm personally indifferent. That is all.

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

In contrast, Marth has more range in this game than in Brawl too.

Seriously?! I know recent patches made him at least useable, but I used him a lot in Brawl, I thought his range would never get to Brawl's level

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Seriously?! I know recent patches made him at least useable, but I used him a lot in Brawl, I thought his range would never get to Brawl's level

There were range nerfs, SB and FSmash to be exact. Everything else is strictly better!

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

There were range nerfs, SB and FSmash to be exact. Everything else is strictly better!

Wow. What about his Fair though? Wasn't the landing lag increased?

 

[Shaya]

Great, now we went from comparisons of Bayonetta to talking about Marth's neutral game. We should probably get back on topic, just bringing that up.

We're talking about 'neutral game' in general.
I think Zero Suit Samus' neutral is pretty good, it has it's issues but it's still potent. Bayonetta's best options in neutral are strictly faster and as safe or safer than hers; with less raw ground mobility and longer cool down dodge options. How can she have terrible neutral?
From my view, Marth's neutral game is decent. But from tournament footage of the best Marth main in the US (possibly the world) getting completely shut down in neutral by Bayonetta because her nair and down tilt are strictly better than Marth's own similar tools is pretty expressive of her not having a terrible neutral game to me either.

Then we went on a tangent because ssbwiki said it's poor :<

.... Eddie... go look stuff up....

 

[SoccerStar9001]

From my view, Marth's neutral game is decent. But from tournament footage of the best Marth main in the US (possibly the world) getting completely shut down in neutral by Bayonetta because her nair and down tilt are strictly better than Marth's own similar tools is pretty expressive of her not having a terrible neutral game to me either.

I think it was a lack of matchup knowledge, but can't say for sure since it isn't available to watch and analyze.
Marth easily outrange Bayonetta, but Marth's option requires heavy commitment so Bayonetta can punish easily.
Marth's Dtilt and Nair isn't too good for combos and Bayonetta's aerial specials beat all of Marth's option in the air.
Marth should remain grounded and punish Bayonetta's more unsafe options and the special landing lag. Use his quick grab and pummel to avoid getting Witch Time if she play crazy safe.