Banning Bayonetta in Tournaments

[Shaya]

I've seen the Ike one too.
Didn't mean anything to me either.

Have this happen in standard situations and then we can see how real "SDI" (hitstun shuffling) can be. SDI in this game is very neutered compared to all other instances of Smash thus far (it existed as the only form of DI in 64). Go into training mode with smart bombs (that could possibly have a <1 multiplier though, not sure) or other multi hit moves with frame advance and see how pitiful frame perfect hitstun shuffling actually is (you get depreciating distances in directions you've already shuffled towards too, unlike in other smash games; this is conclusions from 1.0.4 testing though, who knows if a stealth engine change affected this stuff as SDI anecdotes have been more common than they were at game release).

In other words, have them fall out of a witch twist from an already starting combo that was executed properly and then I'll have some belief there's a consistency. Characters jumping into Bayonetta, standing above her on a platform or otherwise and just dropping out doesn't mean anything.

 

[Muster]

You can check later in the same person's twitter feed for him using it mid match. He gets out of 3 witch twists, but ends up dying in the end.

 

[Shaya]

The last instance was grounded ike while bayo was mid air in her jump before up-bing. The rest are just a standing Ike with what you hear is hard core pre-emptive mashing on the analog stick.
And maybe I'm misunderstanding all the prior instances, but are those SDI instances which disallow any follow up?

 

[Zult]

This does not mean puff beats bayo but in my opinion this is one of puff's better mu's. You can rest if the opponent does not expect it because rest comes out on frame 2, it is important that it is frame 2 because mario's nair which is frame 3 cannot break Bayonetta's combos. this does not mean it is a bayonetta counter, bayonetta can bait it out and punish accordingly or reset to neutral of which bayonetta still wins.

Rest comes out frame 2, but Puff is invincible on frame 1, correct?

 

[Muster]

The last instance was grounded ike while bayo was mid air in her jump before up-bing. The rest are just a standing Ike with what you hear is hard core pre-emptive mashing on the analog stick.
And maybe I'm misunderstanding all the prior instances, but are those SDI instances which disallow any follow up?

Wait, that was the wrong one. This is the one i was referring to in my last post.
Sorry for mixing that up

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Is the game fun for competitive players in it's current state?

I've seen this dance before on Smogon before they started banning everything... I actually voted to ban some of the first suspects before they went out of control and even ignored players wanting to test Stealth Rock in Gen 4, even though 54% wanted a test.

The thing is... would more players want to go to a tourney with Bayo allowed? Or would they rather go to a tourney without her?

I left the Brawl tournament scene after MK and ICs just made it not fun.

I'm not a casual either, I was on the top 50 for a year for Smogon OU in Gen 4, then left when they started banning things too much and ignored Stealth Rock for whatever reason, 2008 21 and under US checkers champ, top US player for pokemon XY's Season 2 & 3 Battle Spot (which is basically a world-wide ladder). People considered me for the MI Brawl PR when I had only went to 3 tournaments too, but I didn't get on.

I leave things when they don't get fun for me, but that's just my personal view.

Edit: Also, people credit me with discovering Lucario's Aura Sphere Cancel to Jump Cancel USmash combo, which I have dubbed the Shoryufloof.

Honestly this has and is the most compelling reason for me to agree with a ban at all right now.

She doesn't match any criteria I would say would be used for being "ban worthy"

But if she does kill the game in a different way, making people quit because she makes the game horrifically unfun to the point people would quit if she wasn't banned.

In that situation I would be more willing to see if a ban would be for the better and why I thought that line of reasoning from Spain hit me more than other reasoning posted.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Honestly, If Jigglypuff ends up being the Bayo counter...

Then Sakurai is actually a genius. That's hilarious.

 

[WackySpinachAgate]

Realistically we're all playing this game to have fun right? About 99% of us aren't playing for money cause we know better. If there's something that is stopping a large amount of people from having fun then something ought to be done about it. Now I'm not for " Ban her she's to OP" She isn't, nor am I in the area of" Well just SDI them duhh." Like man, I ain't gonna SDI with the intention to breaking my joy-stick just to win a game I'm not that desperate.



She just doesn't fit this game. As to quote Kobe Bryant to give an example of this “These young guys are playing checkers. I’m out there playing chess.” With "I'm" In this case being Bayonetta. She just doesn't belong in this game in her current state. Now before you get onto me about that let me say I love Bayonetta, I love the character, I love her games, I love how she is a playable character in smash 4, and I can beat-up megaman with her and shoot pac-man in the face. But whenever I see her get played in this game I always think to myself, am I watching Smash 4? Or Marvel vs Capcom 3 cause man they have those sick nasty combos in there.


TL:DR. Bayonetta isn't a whole lot of fun to play against cause it just doesn't feel like smash when playing against her. Now do i want her banned? Well that depends on how things play out I can't say for sure yet. I feel the deadline for a universal agreement should come right after EVO if there isn't a patch beforehand.


Also guys don't use MK brawl for arguments or future patches cause man we ain't in the dev team we don't know if there WILL be any more patches.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

If there's something that is stopping a large amount of people from having fun then something ought to be done about it.

Sorry to bring him up again, but Little Mac.
When it comes down to it, it is all just personal views about what is fun and what is not.
We as a community can help other enjoy the game by sharing tips and tricks to beating a character, jumping the gun is not necessary.

She just doesn't fit this game. ...... But whenever I see her get played in this game I always think to myself, am I watching Smash 4? Or Marvel vs Capcom 3 cause man they have those sick nasty combos in there.

You are watching Smash 4, Smash is a pretty crazy fighting game. Items, Smash balls, combos, janky moments, etc. Smash got everything.
I am not too sure what makes you feel she doesn't fit this game.

Bayonetta isn't a whole lot of fun to play against cause it just doesn't feel like smash when playing against her.

I feel similar with someone like Sheik (pre 1.15) and Rosalina, but it was just the matter of getting better. The hate for those two are too biased sometimes, I was biased too back then.

we don't know if there WILL be any more patches.

I hope there will be, Puff need buffs.
1.1.6 plz Sakurai

 

[Treveen]

The same could said for any character with a kill throw or throw combo that can kill.

Not true, those characters have to rack up damage first.

 

[Ghidorah14]

Not true, those characters have to rack up damage first.

So does bayonetta.

 

[GalaxyMagnum]

I think it's too early to say that Bayonetta is toxic to the game. We can speculate based on current events, but until we've had time to see a sum-effect over the entire community, I'd advise against that call. How long did it take for the MK ban to be accepted? (I'm legitimately asking, I wasn't a part of that scene, lol.) Even then, from what I understand, that decision came as a result of:

Is the game fun for competitive players in it's current state?

[. . .]

The thing is... would more players want to go to a tourney with Bayo allowed? Or would they rather go to a tourney without her?

I left the Brawl tournament scene after MK and ICs just made it not fun.

I think the game is still young. The skill ceiling expands with every tournament. It's bad if we allow the game to stagnate, but it's also bad if we deny the community a chance to grow.

Banning Bayonetta brings to mind two points:

1.) The skill ceiling has been reached and we're now in a 20XX scenario with Bayonetta.
2.) The community will die if she isn't banned ASAP.

I could be wrong, but I'd like to believe that point 1 isn't true. I want to believe in this game. To keep that faith, I have to believe that there's still room for all of us to grow. Otherwise, I can't see a reason to continue playing.

I understand and share the fear of point 2, but do we really want to pull a Minority Report? I think it's in everyone's best interest if we keep an eye on attendance rates. If we start to see a steady decline, then it's time to make a change. If not, then that means that the community has decided to tolerate Bayonetta.

If we DO want to pull a Minority Report, then that makes me wonder about how much faith we have in this game. Is it THAT fragile? All it takes is a couple months with a potentially SSS rank character to bring everything tumbling down?

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

The MK ban was never fully accepted because by the time they even made the move, it was essentially useless because everybody had other characters besides MK, and he was the only thing preventing Icies from rampaging through tournaments. So they had to unban him because it was already useless to fight it and if they didn't, the Icies would probably have killed interest anyways.

Bayo's not quite as polarizing, but if more and more players start dropping the game because of her, then banning her might be the only solution we have to try and keep player numbers up. It's not one I feel should be made in a kneejerk fashion, but if top players do end up just dropping Smash 4 because of Bayonetta, than we should prioritize meta health over character diversity.

 

[GeneralLedge]

The thing is... would more players want to go to a tourney with Bayo allowed? Or would they rather go to a tourney without her?

Here's the thing: On the one hand, you're making a concious choice that you don't want to play the game as presented. On the other hand, you're telling players that they aren't allowed to play the game, period.

Whether it's Miis or Bayonetta, it's the same central issue. By banning something, regardless of who sees it in a positive, inviting light and incentive to go to that tournament, you are actively telling a group of players, however small they might be, that they aren't allowed to play the game. Period.

The people who "don't want to" are always, and will always be in the wrong when they succeed. They encourage exclusion. Whether a player wants to go to a tournament because of an inclusive aspect is up to them.

I could very well swing the beacon on something malicious in this scope. Let's say a tournament decides to ban players with pink or blue hair, and an arbitrary anti-dye group of people are thereby allowed to start playing the game.

The people affected by this hair-color ban are likely minimal. So who cares, right...? I mean, I have brown hair. Doesn't matter to me, so I'm all for this strange ban!

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

Here's the thing: On the one hand, you're making a concious choice that you don't want to play the game as presented. On the other hand, you're telling players that they aren't allowed to play the game, period.

Whether it's Miis or Bayonetta, it's the same central issue. By banning something, regardless of who sees it in a positive, inviting light and incentive to go to that tournament, you are actively telling a group of players, however small they might be, that they aren't allowed to play the game. Period.

The people who "don't want to" are always, and will always be in the wrong when they succeed. They encourage exclusion. Whether a player wants to go to a tournament because of an inclusive aspect is up to them.

I could very well swing the beacon on something malicious in this scope. Let's say a tournament decides to ban players with pink or blue hair, and an arbitrary anti-dye group of people are thereby allowed to start playing the game.

The people affected by this hair-color ban are likely minimal. So who cares, right...? I mean, I have brown hair. Doesn't matter to me, so I'm all for this strange ban!

You're really trying to equate a tournament banning dyed hair (which is a terrible example, since no tournament would ban something that has no relation to gameplay unless it's very much something that should be banned anyways) to people banning a character that could lead to meta stagnation? Nobody's even saying that Bayo players can't play the game; find another character that fits your playstyle, if you really want to play Smash. But we can't just excuse characters being legalized on the basis of hurting little Billy's feelings alone, and I don't care how much you want to think feelings matter here.

And don't try to pass the people advocating for a potential ban as being "always in the wrong", because that's such a biased and asinine statement to make that I cannot believe you said it. Nobody here is "always in the wrong", we have people advocating for a potential ban on her and people defending her legality. There's no right or wrong answer in this debate as of yet, so zip it with this whole "pin the blame on the people who want her banned" thing, will you? I could call you all blind idiots who refuse to see how potentially damaging she is to the meta if I was a prick, but I respect opinions. The only reason the poll on this thread's even so solidly pro-Bayo is because someone decided it'd be a good idea to place it in the Bayo subforum, meaning it was obvious how they'd vote in the poll.

It's not like we're actively trying to claim all Bayo players are scrubs who shouldn't play this character and actually demonizing Bayo players (at least, the respectable amongst us don't). We're acting as people who are being proactive in order to prevent a collapse like what happened to Brawl.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

I don't know how relevant this is to the conversation, but St. Louis has officially banned Bayonetta. We only had one Bayonetta player, and even he supported the ban, since he thought that the wins he got with her were undeserved and was going to switch back to his original main. Obviously there's been a lot of arguing on the Facebook page, but from what I can tell, most of the top players support the ban and the ones opposing the ban are mostly randoms.

 

[GeneralLedge]

We're acting as people who are being proactive in order to prevent a collapse like what happened to Brawl.

There's some choice real-life relations I could make, but I'll refrain.

I wonder what's next on the list, though. Customs are gone, several good stages are removed, Miis are soft banned, and now Bayonetta too.

Serious question, how do we go about unbanning her when she's 'fixed'?

 

[TheHypnotoad]

There's some choice real-life relations I could make, but I'll refrain.

I wonder what's next on the list, though. Customs are gone, several good stages are removed, Miis are soft banned, and now Bayonetta too.

Serious question, how do we go about unbanning her when she's 'fixed'?

If she gets nerfed, I can guarantee you that every region which has her banned will immediately unban her. Probably do a sort of "suspect test" as well to determine if she should be re-banned.

Also, don't even try to defend Halberd, Delfino, or Castle Siege. Those stages suck.

 

[Greward]

I don't know how relevant this is to the conversation, but St. Louis has officially banned Bayonetta. We only had one Bayonetta player, and even he supported the ban, since he thought that the wins he got with her were undeserved and was going to switch back to his original main. Obviously there's been a lot of arguing on the Facebook page, but from what I can tell, most of the top players support the ban and the ones opposing the ban are mostly randoms.

Welcome to the club, it's pretty nice in here, there's some annoying people outside yelling but we good.

I think this post is more related to knowing which regions have banned her than to "discuss" if she's more lame or not that ICs so yeah it's the place to post it.

 

[GeneralLedge]

I can guarantee you that every region which has her banned will immediately unban her.

Of note though, I think the damage has already been done.

Odds are good the players ("players") who have harassed Bayonetta players will continue to, and continue to inspire others to harass their Bayonetta players as well.

Equally, I predict that some TOs will reserve the opinion that she's a permanent problem. That (a) the nerfs aren't good enough and their players are still uncomfortable, or (b) that "it doesn't matter anyway, because nobody here plays Bayonetta."


Lucky numbers: 17 27 31 33 41 42

 

[TTTTTsd]

Here's the thing: On the one hand, you're making a concious choice that you don't want to play the game as presented. On the other hand, you're telling players that they aren't allowed to play the game, period.

Whether it's Miis or Bayonetta, it's the same central issue. By banning something, regardless of who sees it in a positive, inviting light and incentive to go to that tournament, you are actively telling a group of players, however small they might be, that they aren't allowed to play the game. Period.

The people who "don't want to" are always, and will always be in the wrong when they succeed. They encourage exclusion. Whether a player wants to go to a tournament because of an inclusive aspect is up to them.

I could very well swing the beacon on something malicious in this scope. Let's say a tournament decides to ban players with pink or blue hair, and an arbitrary anti-dye group of people are thereby allowed to start playing the game.

The people affected by this hair-color ban are likely minimal. So who cares, right...? I mean, I have brown hair. Doesn't matter to me, so I'm all for this strange ban!

I get what you mean but this logic can NOT be presented in such a general way. People played Akuma in HDR but he was incredibly broken. I am not saying Bayonetta is or isn't (she's definitely no Akuma IMO, not even close), this isn't a statement about her, but this logic is inherently flawed (at least in the way it's presented). How many people use something in the case of a character should not influence a ban or a lack thereof, this is a time based matter and also dependent on how the character herself reflects on the game, and the time is insufficient right now although the reflection is not looking pretty to some. I'm pretty solidly "don't ban" because it's been like, 2 months.

Adversely I won't judge a scene for banning the character if that's a conscious and consensual decision amongst said scene because it's not MY scene nor do I intend on making it mine.

 

[GeneralLedge]

I'll admit being a little broad in my generalization. My generalization stems from how explosive a lot of opinions are, however. Internet generation means sharp and quick actions - once one scene bans Bayo, another TO who was on the edge has incentive to do the same. Then a handful of other players complain to their (third) TO about it, threaten they'll stop playing, that TO bans Bayo too.

I've said it before, this has happened almost to the letter with Miis. Different reasons, but same interpretation. I can roughly predict the same future effects of the matter.


Incidentally, I'm curious the timeline around Akuma. Was his instant-win gameplan produced from the get-go or did it take time for players to learn it? How long did everyone else spend trying to beat Akuma before they came to the conclusion he was unbeatable?

Granted, I assume tournaments were much fewer and farther, so I'd imagine these actions took longer to cement.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I'll admit being a little broad in my generalization. My generalization stems from how explosive a lot of opinions are, however. Internet generation means sharp and quick actions - once one scene bans Bayo, another TO who was on the edge has incentive to do the same. Then a handful of players complain to their TO about it, threaten they'll stop playing, that TO bans Bayo too.

I've said it before, this has happened almost to the letter with Miis. Different reasons, but same interpretation. I can roughly predict the same future effects of the matter.


Incidentally, I'm curious the timeline around Akuma. Was his instant-win gameplan produced from the get-go or did it take time for players to learn it? How long did everyone else spend trying to beat Akuma before they came to the conclusion he was unbeatable?

Granted, I assume tournaments were much fewer and farther, so I'd imagine these actions took longer to cement.

Well.........

- In ST it was agreed upon almost immediately. I mean, outside of even his basic moveset being horrendously broken with actual blockstun infinites involving the red fireball, the character was also immune to being dizzied (even when chosen as a playable character). Additionally the air fireball ****ed everyone up. He was beyond broken and being immune to a basic system mechanic is also kind of damning.

- HDR it took Damdai before they banned him. Damdai basically went and won everything with Akuma, to the point of where his results were so good that the character got investigated, was found to be broken, and got banned. This was after HDR attempted to balance Akuma too! His design in ST was just ****ed up. Nobody in Super Turbo was made or equipped to deal with an air fireball, let alone when HDR gave him the Raging Demon (good lord)

 

[Respect38]

Sorry to bring him up again, but Little Mac.
When it comes down to it, it is all just personal views about what is fun and what is not.
We as a community can help other enjoy the game by sharing tips and tricks to beating a character, jumping the gun is not necessary.

What does Little Mac have to do with anything? Even if he's "unfun" to fight against, there's a massive difference between being unfun to fight against and G-tier, and unfun to fight against and S-tier, and that difference is how many of them you'll have to fight against during your general Smash 4 experience.

I don't disagree that what is "fun" is subjective, no doubt about that. However, something that isn't subjective: how many people leave the game due to their perception of the most important matchup in the game [which is turning into Bayonetta] being "unfun" [or whatever word they want to use] and the community rejecting their plea of taming the character. Of course, that's just a number, and it's a number that's representative of the whatever theoretical damage to the game that Bayonetta could do if left unchecked.

Also, something that I just thought of as a means to tame the character without resorting to a ban: force Bayonetta players to play with a % handicap. Would, to some extent, resolve the problem of risk/reward with the character while not completely nullifying the potential to get matchup experience against her. I don't know if any locals would be interested in such an idea, but I suppose that it exists nonetheless.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Of note though, I think the damage has already been done.

Odds are good the players ("players") who have harassed Bayonetta players will continue to, and continue to inspire others to harass their Bayonetta players as well.

Equally, I predict that some TOs will reserve the opinion that she's a permanent problem. That (a) the nerfs aren't good enough and their players are still uncomfortable, or (b) that "it doesn't matter anyway, because nobody here plays Bayonetta."


Lucky numbers: 17 27 31 33 41 42

What a ridiculous post. People will absolutely get over their Bayonetta hatred if she is adequately nerfed. People complained very loudly about Diddy Kong, Sheik, Zero Suit Samus, and Meta Knight (not wanting them banned, just disliking them), but everyone stopped hating them after they were nerfed. Why would Bayonetta be any different? If Bayonetta gets nerfed to the point that she is no longer broken, people will stop hating her. It's as simple as that.

 

[Xandercosm]

So does bayonetta.

The difference is that Bayonetta can hit you once and proceed to rack up 50%+ with little to no effort. There is no other character in this game that can do that (not even Mario can do that as consistently). Bayonetta gets way too much reward off a single hit compared to other characters.

Until she gets the nerfs she deserves, she will be inadequately balanced and, therefore, unhealthy to the competitive scene. I don't want Smash 4 to become over-centralized around one character and I can assure that will happen if she remains unchanged. In a way, Bayonetta, as a character, reminds me of chain-grabs in Brawl. They were a cheap tactic that took a lot of the fun out of watching and playing the game. I really don't want to see something tantamount to that in Smash 4.

 

[Darksydaz]

Hi, So I have a couple of more questions/opinions on the matter that might help the discussion.

Position: Bayonetta is fine, no one wants to take the time to explore her weaknesses.

1.) Why is it that because SDI is weaker, now there are a bunch of "special circumstances" (and there could be) that are trying to explain off SDI'ing her combos when there are videos explaining how to SDI her combos?

2.) Why is it that some people keep speaking about Bayonetta's OOS (Out Of Shield) options as if she has multiple? From what i know, she has Witch Time and Witch Twist.

3.) People keep speaking of Witch Time'ing Jabs as if people do it on reaction (reaction is around 12 frames, jabs are far beneath this). Does this mean you are instead getting punished for being predictable by someone who has an Extremely Amazing Punish Game?

4.) Has anyone who is speaking against the SDI treatment of her Ladder Combos practiced any of these in training mode?

5.) IMO, Bayonetta does have terrible matchups against ranged characters (Cloud, Lucas) because she's not designed to approach (i.e lack of safe on shield options), why are these seen as "lame" or "not viable"?

6.) Why is there a Bias in the players facing her versus the players playing as? What I mean is that there are lots of people saying that Bayonetta Players can read DI and bait moves to reset neutral or witch time, but no one can bait out aerial moves, witch time or witch twist to punish her landing lag. Why?

7.) She feels like a different character to punish and can punish frame traps heavily. Why is it impossible for people to bait out frame traps for witch time with multi-hit moves?

8.) IMO, Do people know that Bayonetta Dittos are a pretty bad matchup due to her multi-hit frames which negate witch-time?

Bayonetta counters most Top-Tiers form of play that revolve around "not-True" Combos. Why is this seen as such a shake up to the meta? Why is baiting out Bayonetta impossible? Why is baiting out Aerials that increase her landing lag impossible? Why can Mars beat Pink Fresh? Why didn't anyone notice 9B punishing Ranai for ALWAYS using Nair OOS? Why is she exempt from the punish/bait style of play that most characters have? Why did no one think that Komorikiri, one of japan's best, took an unknown character to a tournament and dominated could be a possible lack of character knowledge and the fact that Komorikiri is (IMO) one of the top 10 in the world in Sm4sh? Why are people only looking at the results and not looking at the way people lost?

I'm just a curious Smasher that has taken interest in Smash Bros and would like to see the game flourish. And just asking questions to help understand (and maybe others) Understand this argument better...

 

[GeneralLedge]

Why would Bayonetta be any different?

Harassment has occurred.

I apologize if it was a rampant issue with characters like Diddy Kong, Sheik, ZSS, or Metaknight. Where people were harassed and made unwelcome for playing these characters.

But what makes Bayonetta different on this front? Why is it "more fun" to bully because of her? And equally so, how is it so easy to sweep it all under the rug?

 

[4chanJoe]

But what makes Bayonetta different on this front? Why is it "more fun" to bully because of her? And equally so, how is it so easy to sweep it all under the rug?

There are a lot of factors behind this. Personally, I think it's the mob mentality of some toxic environments (twitch chat being the prime offender imo) that every now and then spills out into the actual tournament setting. At the end of the day, it really is up to the TO to make sure nobody is being so spiteful that it goes from trash talk in jest to personal attacks. Not only do the TOs need to know the difference, but all players need to know. That way the chances of something as seemingly harmless as taking pot shots at low hanging fruit doesn't devolve into flat out harassment. To be honest, I can see why people find joy in decrying Bayonetta as a character, but no player deserves the same type of treatment. It's pointless, it's immature, and it's unacceptable.

Not everything is perfect, and it's inevitable that a couple of bad apples will show up to a weekly every once in a while. But there can still be steps taken to ensure people are fostering a welcome environment for players of all ages and skill levels. The thing that people can do, especially right now, to ensure nobody is getting harassed is to speak up to the TO. If you see something, say something.

 

[Zult]

What a ridiculous post. People will absolutely get over their Bayonetta hatred if she is adequately nerfed. People complained very loudly about Diddy Kong, Sheik, Zero Suit Samus, and Meta Knight (not wanting them banned, just disliking them), but everyone stopped hating them after they were nerfed. Why would Bayonetta be any different? If Bayonetta gets nerfed to the point that she is no longer broken, people will stop hating her. It's as simple as that.

Nope. I feel like Bayo is different in this case. Bayo has a counter that is fundamentally annoying to most players. That alone brings the hate and the "you need witch time to win" remarks. Add a character that can combo on top of that and you have another sonic-y character. Sonic got nerfed numerous of times and people still hate him. Because his play style is fundamentally annoying to most people. And you can hope for a Bayo nerf and hope it won't be minuscule like Rosa's nerfs, but she will always have her combos. They may or may not make her combos kill later, but one thing for sure is that she will still have her combos because that is what she was built on and she will always have witch time. No matter how hard they get nerfed, they'll still piss off people. The Bayonetta hate is here to stay, and it's why I laugh at people thinking a nerf will suddenly make her not combo anymore or act as if they'll just magically patch out witch time. Kinda like Sonic like I said earlier. The thing is Sonic isn't banned even though he provokes the same emotions people have with Bayo. "It's not fun." "I have to play super safe." "I eat 30% for one mistake." Yet there's no campaign to ban Sonic. There's a reason for that. He was released with the game and people eventually learned the match up.

People hated those characters you mentioned because they were too good. And they were annoying because they were good. Sonic was never top 3 in the tier list at any point, but was hated because he was annoying in a different way in that you had to play a certain way (a.k.a adapting) and forced you to not play on super auto pilot mode. The same thing applies for Bayonetta. No amount of patches will make her not annoying (unless they completely destroy the character to point where it's not even Bayonetta anymore) because she isn't solely annoying because she's good. So waiting for a nerf to make Bayonetta not annoying is hilarious. Stop waiting for a nerf for this reason, you're wasting your time. Go learn the match up now so that way if she is nerfed at least you didn't waste 3-4months crying and will be ahead of the curve. People, to this day, still lose to flow chart Sonics and cry on social media forums instead of trying to actually learn the match up and learn how Sonic works. Your typical 1-2'ers. I even picked up Sonic myself for two weeks just so I could learn how he played. Wanna be a good player? That's the effort that it takes to become one. Formerly a Pit main, and now a Bayonetta main or co-main, I am ready for the hate to flow my way because a patch won't stop the hate. And it won't bug me one bit.



Disclaimer: I use the term 'annoying' because I couldn't find a better word. Frustrating maybe? Idunno

 

[Greward]

Nope. I feel like Bayo is different in this case. Bayo has a counter that is fundamentally annoying to most players. That alone brings the hate and the "you need witch time to win" remarks. Add a character that can combo on top of that and you have another sonic-y character. Sonic got nerfed numerous of times and people still hate him. Because his play style is fundamentally annoying to most people. And you can hope for a Bayo nerf and hope it won't be minuscule like Rosa's nerfs, but she will always have her combos. They may or may not make her combos kill later, but one thing for sure is that she will still have her combos because that is what she was built on and she will always have witch time. No matter how hard they get nerfed, they'll still piss off people. The Bayonetta hate is here to stay, and it's why I laugh at people thinking a nerf will suddenly make her not combo anymore or act as if they'll just magically patch out witch time. Kinda like Sonic like I said earlier. The thing is Sonic isn't banned even though he provokes the same emotions people have with Bayo. "It's not fun." "I have to play super safe." "I eat 30% for one mistake." Yet there's no campaign to ban Sonic. There's a reason for that. He was released with the game and people eventually learned the match up.

People hated those characters you mentioned because they were too good. And they were annoying because they were good. Sonic was never top 3 in the tier list at any point, but was hated because he was annoying in a different way in that you had to play a certain way (a.k.a adapting) and forced you to not play on super auto pilot mode. The same thing applies for Bayonetta. No amount of patches will make her not annoying (unless they completely destroy the character to point where it's not even Bayonetta anymore) because she isn't solely annoying because she's good. So waiting for a nerf to make Bayonetta not annoying is hilarious. Stop waiting for a nerf for this reason, you're wasting your time. Go learn the match up now so that way if she is nerfed at least you didn't waste 3-4months crying and will be ahead of the curve. People, to this day, still lose to flow chart Sonics and cry on social media forums instead of trying to actually learn the match up and learn how Sonic works. Your typical 1-2'ers. I even picked up Sonic myself for two weeks just so I could learn how he played. Wanna be a good player? That's the effort that it takes to become one. Formerly a Pit main, and now a Bayonetta main or co-main, I am ready for the hate to flow my way because a patch won't stop the hate. And it won't bug me one bit.



Disclaimer: I use the term 'annoying' because I couldn't find a better word. Frustrating maybe? Idunno

This is all wrong.

The casual/reddit opinion on "sonic and rosaluma are lame" is not to apply on Bayonetta.
The problem with Bayonetta is that she's too strong. Nothing about boring, frustrating, lame, annoying or ****. She's just too strong.
People will justify this perception of "too strong" in a lot of ways: unfun, lame, boring and others. But the main issue is that she's too strong. No one would ban a balanced character just because their playstyle is lame.

The same way people were annoyed with prepatch sheik and now kinda like Sheik on stream, it's the same for Bayonetta.
The popular opinion of Bayonetta as being too good for the game is not here yet. It will come. At some point it will be realized that campy play doesn't actually counter Bayonetta, that SDIing out of her 0 deaths (if even possible) is not making her a balanced character. Or she will be nerfed before that.

Most top players know that she's too strong, and she has been a problem in Japan since release, results-wise, way more than any other character in smash4. Even Bayonetta players from Japan realize that she's too good.
Local regions are starting to get dominated by Bayonetta players and it will keep on happening. High level players are starting to realize that she's a problem as well.
It has been just two months, it's not to be expected for everyone to have "Bayonetta is too good" as common sense. But unless the nerf patch strikes first, it will happen.


If she were to be a balanced character, none of this would actually happen. The problem is, plain and simple, that she's too good.

 

[Zult]

This is all wrong.

The casual/reddit opinion on "sonic and rosaluma are lame" is not to apply on Bayonetta.
The problem with Bayonetta is that she's too strong. Nothing about boring, frustrating, lame, annoying or ****. She's just too strong.
People will justify this perception of "too strong" in a lot of ways: unfun, lame, boring and others. But the main issue is that she's too strong. No one would ban a balanced character just because their playstyle is lame.

The same way people were annoyed with prepatch sheik and now kinda like Sheik on stream, it's the same for Bayonetta.
The popular opinion of Bayonetta as being too good for the game is not here yet. It will come. At some point it will be realized that campy play doesn't actually counter Bayonetta, that SDIing out of her 0 deaths (if even possible) is not making her a balanced character. Or she will be nerfed before that.

Most top players know that she's too strong, and she has been a problem in Japan since release, results-wise, way more than any other character in smash4. Even Bayonetta players from Japan realize that she's too good.
Local regions are starting to get dominated by Bayonetta players and it will keep on happening. High level players are starting to realize that she's a problem as well.
It has been just two months, it's not to be expected for everyone to have "Bayonetta is too good" as common sense. But unless the nerf patch strikes first, it will happen.


If she were to be a balanced character, none of this would actually happen. The problem is, plain and simple, that she's too good.

Read my words carefully. I didn't say her being annoying was solely on her on play style. Part of her being annoying also comes from being good obviously. But if she is nerfed people will still hate her, it's obvious. Witch time alone will make people mad. And add the fact that she also combos. Sometimes I won't kill my opponent once under 100% and they'll still get salty. She carries a stigma with her and I don't think a nerf will make it go away unless it's some gigantic nerf.

 

[cFive]

Thought i'd post this here:

How to beat Bayonetta

 

[Linq]

What's with the options on the poll? "Yes, she is stupid and game breaking" vs "No, she is fine and players need to adapt". My personal vote would be "Yes. Although she is fine balance wise, the type of play she causes is boring as heck to watch". You shouldn't include reasons for things in a poll, it should be a "Yes" or a "No" (or "Not sure yet"), otherwise people have to vote for options they don't actually agree with should they choose to vote, and thus you end up with skewed results.

 

[NotLiquid]

Thought i'd post this here:

How to beat Bayonetta

I swear I smelled something burning after that portion about ZeRo's vid.

Stellar analysis.

 

[Muster]

Thought i'd post this here:

How to beat Bayonetta

It's pretty comprehensive, but a shame they only mentioned SDI in passing and not all of the options for it.

Overall, a fantastic video in general, but especially for this thread.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Thought i'd post this here:

How to beat Bayonetta

I guess this ultimately proves Bayonetta's combo are DI-able.

 

[Darksydaz]

Thought i'd post this here:

How to beat Bayonetta

I love the Beefy Smash Doods, I need to give them a sub on my channels. Now I can hopefully play Bayonetta without fear. I feel like they were reading this forum and decided to make a video to dispel the Misconceptions. Looks like they fought the CPU to find out a lot of these, and I appreciate the research they did. I agree when they said Bayonetta is strong and different, and I like how they mentioned the baiting out Witch Time. I'm glad they thought of a lot of these concepts so people won't think bayonetta is free wins. And yes, those links on those combos make reacting to DI's tough since more often than not, you have to buffer the inputs (unless you are godlike at frame perfect inputs).

Once again, Just a guy who casually enjoys Bayonetta.

 

[Cook]

The (un)competitive scene in St. Louis, my home scene, has banned Bayo. Let's watch the scrub dominoes begin to fall...

 

[Terotrous]

Thought i'd post this here:

How to beat Bayonetta

"To avoid witch time, only attack her when she's has some form of lag, and only do guaranteed follow-ups"

Phew guys, crisis averted. All we have to do is do absolutely nothing until the Bayonetta player screws up. It kinda sucks that if she gets a percent lead she gets to time us out for free, but them's the breaks.


Seriously though, I don't think a ban is warranted yet (her brokenness has to be proven at at least one major), but I do think her design is quite poorly done.