Banning Bayonetta in Tournaments

[MythTrainerInfinity]

If you reduced her knock back base and gain and nerf the damage on her specials and air attacks... Her strings would take hard reads to work to hit because they wouldn't put you in as much hitstun and you'd fall out of them easier. This would be easy for the devs, since there would only be a few values to edit. And making reads are a lot more exciting in my opinion and wouldn't probably take away from the design and feeling of the character.

Rehauling the character would take a lot longer to do. The devs of this game are people too :x

 

[Buddhahobo]

So, it turns out Bayonetta is not actually banned in Russia.

It was all an elaborate ruse to troll Reddit that snowballed harder than Springtime for Hitler.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

So, it turns out Bayonetta is not actually banned in Russia.

It was all an elaborate ruse to troll Reddit that snowballed harder than Springtime for Hitler.

Any proof? I know Reddit isn't always 100% trustworthy but a source would be nice.

 

[Buddhahobo]

Any proof? I know Reddit isn't always 100% trustworthy but a source would be nice.

It's the same guy who made the last thread that said she had been banned.

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/4f3nl0/update_on_the_russian_bayonetta_ban/

How did the person who won a tournament win even though he never even got Top 8 until Bayonetta came out? Because Russia's only had two tournaments, and they were both after she came out.

Also, he plays Luigi, not Bayonetta.

Also, they don't have any DLC characters unlocked on their Wii U.

Also, he's the TO for the Russian scene.

Also, the Russian scene is only about ten people strong in Moscow.

This was all supposed to be a post spoofing Spain and reddit's reaction to it.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

It's the same guy who made the last thread that said she had been banned.

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/4f3nl0/update_on_the_russian_bayonetta_ban/

How did the person who won a tournament win even though he never even got Top 8 until Bayonetta came out? Because Russia's only had two tournaments, and they were both after she came out.

Also, he plays Luigi, not Bayonetta.

Also, he's the TO for the Russian scene.

Also, the Russian scene is only about ten people strong in Moscow.

This was all supposed to be a post spoofing Spain and reddit's reaction to it.

Can't say I saw this coming.
lol Mew2king

 

[Deleted member 269706]

If there's one thing we can all agree on, I think it's that this is all getting very old.

 

[Funbot28]

Ok will change the OP I guess. I was kinda skeptical tbh, cause like seriously smash in Russia?

 

[Buddhahobo]

Apparently a local in Tampa has now banned Bayonetta because Static Manny just lost a tournament to one and he threw a big enough tantrum.

It's so nice that locals feel the need to cater to toddlers, but it probably isn't going to last long.

Ok will change the OP I guess. I was kinda skeptical tbh, cause like seriously smash in Russia?

To be fair, the Russian scene does actually exist, it's not North Korea or anything. It's just only ten people big in Moscow, apparently.

As for Spain, 80% was a vote from 130 people. That might be an important thing to add to that statistic in the OP.

Also, I beg of you, take the ZeRo video out of the OP. The only thing worse than that salt fueled vlog is how many people who should have known better approved of it.

EDIT: This was the local, 47 person according to the challonge. It seem's he's changed his name again to All Might. Got double eliminated by Riot.

http://challonge.com/kumite8singles

 

[blackghost]

Maybe you're right but I've never seen someone fail to connect a second dABK after the first one even against top players. I mean, it travels so much distance diagonally that I think it's impossible to avoid but I can't test it right now, so if you send some evidence that it can be escaped even if done correctly it would be very nice.
If it sends more horizontally and away it could possibly be DI'd out meaning that it would only punish bad DI and it's nice.
Also, Witch Time is fine, I never said anything about, in fact I even defended its existence.

EDIT: I completely agree with ParanoidDrone post.

i just saw angel cortes avoid a second dabk in a sets omega. but its really hard to tell (as with most bayo games) whether the bayo payer messed up or if the other player escapes. but watching the matches the nerfs i'd give her would be more cooldown on landed divekicks and reduce the height she bounces up.if she cant do immediate second divekicks she doesnt get the free upwards carry.
match:https://www.twitch.tv/clashtournaments/v/61007327
around 6:13:00 mark

 

[Sha-Shulk]

Maybe there should be a new thread for the discussion of Bayonetta nerfs/buffs?

It seems to me (imo) that everyone here agrees that a ban early in the meta would be harmful for the development, while also respecting certain regions and locals decisions to ban Bayonetta. Or we just think a ban at all would be unnecessary.

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

Maybe there should be a new thread for the discussion of Bayonetta nerfs/buffs?

It seems to me (imo) that everyone here agrees that a ban early in the meta would be harmful for the development, while also respecting certain regions and locals decisions to ban Bayonetta. Or we just think a ban at all would be unnecessary.

Banning her is such a controversial topic that while discussing nerfs would be more peaceful, it's up to Mr. Sakurai and Bandi Namco to balance Bayonetta. Banning is something in the tournament organisers power. We're here to discuss banning to see if we can make a conclusion based on the community's thoughts and votes. I personally think that the meta game should develop first, others want her banned now, others think that she's fine and people need to learn the matchup. Hopefully we can come to a conclusion and the "Bayonetta Drama" will be settled.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

It's apparent (for now) that Bayonetta can be beaten. I'm slowly learning the matchup myself. It's just super frustrating because you have to throw away your entire playbook to fight her effectively. The air is almost entirely off limits. Little Mac is the perfect counter? XD

 

[Sha-Shulk]

It's apparent (for now) that Bayonetta can be beaten. I'm slowly learning the matchup myself. It's just super frustrating because you have to throw away your entire playbook to fight her effectively. The air is almost entirely off limits. Little Mac is the perfect counter? XD

That first part sums up my problem with Bayonetta.

That last part was my first impression, honestly. I thought, "A super-air and sucky-ground fighter... like a reverse Little Mac?"

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

It's apparent (for now) that Bayonetta can be beaten. I'm slowly learning the matchup myself. It's just super frustrating because you have to throw away your entire playbook to fight her effectively. The air is almost entirely off limits. Little Mac is the perfect counter? XD

I'd actually laugh so hard if Little Mac was the perfect counter.

 

[Ghidorah14]

Eventhubs just put up an article discussing bayonetta.
http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2016/...-why-you-shouldnt-be-so-afraid-big-bad-witch/

 

[ParanoidDrone]

It's apparent (for now) that Bayonetta can be beaten. I'm slowly learning the matchup myself. It's just super frustrating because you have to throw away your entire playbook to fight her effectively. The air is almost entirely off limits. Little Mac is the perfect counter? XD

Doesn't Rosalina also do this to an extent? Having to throw out the usual playbook when fighting her, that is. (Luma interrupting combos, preventing pummels, generally being a pain in the ass, etc.) The main difference being we've had a year and a half to learn the Rosalina matchup.

 

[Scribe]

Eventhubs just put up an article discussing bayonetta.
http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2016/...-why-you-shouldnt-be-so-afraid-big-bad-witch/

Well, you know what they say about broken clocks.

But seriously though. This article was actually pretty good, but Eventhubs is run by stream monsters for stream monsters. It's the FGC equivalent of a tabloid magazine. I'd stick to Shoryuken. And, what do you know, they also have a similar article.

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

Eventhubs just put up an article discussing bayonetta.
http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2016/...-why-you-shouldnt-be-so-afraid-big-bad-witch/

Lol Eventhubs. No way.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/...ding_to_the_japanese_guide_on_bayos_specials/

Welp. If there was any question before this piece of news came out, it's definitely settled now: she's fundamentally broken. Ignores DI, ignores weight, ignores gravity, can use her recovery twice, can kill you at zero for a multitude of different reasons, will punish you for spacing, will punish you for not spacing, can cancel her landing lag from her wild combos (aka her only "weakness" can be canceled), can force approaches as well as approach safely...

 

[Nidtendofreak]

So much for "just DI out". More like "have insane reflexes and make sure you DI out of the first up B, because it ain't working on the second"

 

[SiO2]

And yet, she still doesn't have results, and top level players aren't switching to her.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Welp.

R.I.P. Bayonetta.

 

[Ghidorah14]

Good. Now we know what the problem is, and what actually needs fixing.

 

[UniStar]

Being completely honest, no bayonetta has won a national in the US. Gimmicks only get you so far. I think that as the meta progresses she won't be as big of a problem.

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

Being completely honest, no bayonetta has won a national in the US. Gimmicks only get you so far. I think that as the meta progresses she won't be as big of a problem.

This is something I don't understand why everyone should agree on. Don't ban a character so early, give the meta a chance to adapt. Even Pre-Patch Diddy had weaknesses. He had a easily gimped recovery, and Peanut Popgun wasn't an extremely reliable projectile. Bayo is nowhere near as bad as Pre-Patch Diddy. Therefore, she won't get banned because Diddy didn't.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

That's pretty poor logic considering the ban talk about Diddy was starting to heat up.

Its also only his Up B that is somewhat gimpable: a risky gimp at that if you screw up the timing you risk getting stage spiked, his Side B is a pretty great recovery option. And Peanut Popgun is pretty great for B-revesal stuff.

Also keep in mind with the claims that "top players aren't picking Bayo so she's fine", that some have come out and said that they refuse to. That's quite different from going "Nah she's not as good as everyone thinks", that's "I think she's either getting the nerf bat or ban hammer soon so its not worth my time until I see how things play out".

The bar for being a serious problem isn't "winning a national" either. ICs didn't win many, if any nationals back in Brawl. Still a massive headache particularly when the MK ban was attempted.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

To add onto what Nidtendofreak said, she definitely has results if you look at regions outside of the US. There's a lot more to the world than your country you know

 

[ぱみゅ]

Pretty sure that picture changes nothing on what has been going on so far.
She still has no decisive results and players still can avoid combos more consistently than not.
If it will change something in the future is yet to be seen.

btw, she doesn't "kill at 0 for a multitude of reasons", nor has good approach options.

 

[Ghidorah14]

Pretty sure that picture changes nothing on what has been going on so far.
She still has no decisive results and players still can avoid combos more consistently than not.
If it will change something in the future is yet to be seen.

btw, she doesn't "kill at 0 for a multitude of reasons", nor has good approach options.

Nah bro, she doesnt need to approach! Her bullet arts do like 0.01 % and her neutralB is like, the best projectile in the game! Besides, why bother with a neutral game? If you mess up once, she can just touch you and a take a stock! Guaranteed. I beat the casuals at my local college game club's 5 man tournament with her, so I know my bayonetta.

 

[Ninety]

Brilliant arguing. Strawmen always do make for such nice discussion.

 

[Ghidorah14]

Brilliant arguing. Strawmen always do make for such nice discussion.

Things like "kill at 0 for a multitude of reasons" and "one mistake and you lose your stock" are actually things people have actually said. Like, actually.

No strawmen here.

 

[Roy of Pharae]

Top players aren't picking Bayo because she is toxic. Even some Bayo mains say she is too strong.

 

[Ghidorah14]

Top players aren't picking Bayo because she is toxic. Even some Bayo mains say she is too strong.

Oh, but diddy wasnt?

And can be enforce some kind of ban on the word toxic, please? I'm starting to lose all meaning an impact.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Top players aren't picking Bayo because she is toxic. Even some Bayo mains say she is too strong.

Dabuz has announced Bayonetta to be his secondary, Mr. R is also shown interest in using her.
Komorikiri is using Bayonetta right now.
The only top player calling her toxic is ZeRo I believe, and he said the best thing to do is adapt.

So much for "just DI out". More like "have insane reflexes and make sure you DI out of the first up B, because it ain't working on the second"

The reason you can't DI the second up b is because the last hit is angled 0 (like Pika jab) and doesn't put you in tumble.
I should also note, you can't DI the last hit of UpB 2, but SDI still works.
Also, that picture has shown it being more than possible to DI almost all of her attacks.
Beefy Smash Doods' video is still very valid.

To add onto what Nidtendofreak said, she definitely has results if you look at regions outside of the US. There's a lot more to the world than your country you know

She has 29 first place results since her release, but 6 characters has more results than her. Her results aren't even Top 5.
Her results are lacking compared to the likes of Sheik, ZSS, Mario, etc.
While she has modest results outside of US, it is still very lackluster.

 

[Respect38]

Things like "kill at 0 for a multitude of reasons" and "one mistake and you lose your stock" are actually things people have actually said. Like, actually.

No strawmen here.

The strawman isn't that these things haven't been said, the strawman is in the implication that these claims are the main, or only, claims that pro-ban individuals are standing behind.

Oh, but diddy wasnt?

And can be enforce some kind of ban on the word toxic, please? I'm starting to lose all meaning an impact.

What's even the point of this statement? Diddy hasn't been mentioned at all, and yet you bring it up as if to claim that he's being hypocritical.

So what if his statements apply to Diddy equally as to Bayonetta? Maybe that proves that Diddy was as ban-worthy as Bayonetta during pre-patch days, and that he would have eventually been banned if he remained in that state--only hampered by the fact that they did eventually nerf him and make ban discussion irrelevant.

It would be best if we kept conversation to Bayonetta, though, and away from bring up Diddy, or ****posts such as:

Nah bro, she doesnt need to approach! Her bullet arts do like 0.01 % and her neutralB is like, the best projectile in the game! Besides, why bother with a neutral game? If you mess up once, she can just touch you and a take a stock! Guaranteed. I beat the casuals at my local college game club's 5 man tournament with her, so I know my bayonetta.

I thought we moved this thread over here to avoid ****posts, anyway?

 

[teluoborg]

Please don't feed the trolls, ignore Ghidora and move on with the discussion.

You're better off focusing on people that actually put some work in the issue like Kaora :
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/4futcn/chart_on_how_to_di_bayonettas_combos/

 

[HoSmash4]

Please don't feed the trolls, ignore Ghidora and move on with the discussion.

You're better off focusing on people that actually put some work in the issue like Kaora :
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/4futcn/chart_on_how_to_di_bayonettas_combos/

Bayonetta mains have specific counterplay for flowchart DI like this.

 

[teluoborg]

You are welcome to provide the data to back up your claims.

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

[QUOTE="Nidtendofreak, post: 21116930, member: 31838

Also keep in mind with the claims that "top players aren't picking Bayo so she's fine", that some have come out and said that they refuse to. That's quite different from going "Nah she's not as good as everyone thinks", that's "I think she's either getting the nerf bat or ban hammer soon so its not worth my time until I see how things play out".

The bar for being a serious problem isn't "winning a national" either. ICs didn't win many, if any nationals back in Brawl. Still a massive headache particularly when the MK ban was attempted.[/QUOTE]

Now I wouldn't be experienced in the Brawl competitive scene, but I remember that they had a poor matchup against Meta Knight which may have hindered their results. Meta Knight is still banned in some tournaments due to it now being up to the tournament organiser. So that should earn the Ice Climbers some results.

I'm not arguing or disagreeing with what you said about Bayonetta, but I am very surprised. Yes, the 0-Death combos are annoying, but Bayonetta is a combo-heavy character. Just because she can win tournaments easily, players are avoiding her?! I suppose maybe they don't want to get hated for using a top tier, but again that makes no sense because half or Brawl competitive scene was Meta Knight, so players really didn't care back then.Pink Fresh suddenly got massive hate because he picked up Bayp and started doing better at tournaments. I always thought that was silly. He wants to win, is he going to pick Lucas or Bayonetta? But anyways, I think that it's fine if she gets some nerfs here and there, then people will stop complaining and be able to handle her, and in time she should earn results. But I don't want to be a hypocrite, I said before that we can't rely on nerfs due to them being up to Mr.Sakurai and Bandai Namco.
I just wish people would stop complaining and figure out how to beat her.( Unless your main is Bowser. Even King Dedede is more likely to win.)

 

[Ghidorah14]

The strawman isn't that these things haven't been said, the strawman is in the implication that these claims are the main, or only, claims that pro-ban individuals are standing behind.

I've seen many people claim that their biggest issue with bayo is the 0-death/touch of death combos.