Banning Bayonetta in Tournaments

[SoccerStar9001]

think the most appropriate way to nerf Bayo is to take away some of her killing power

Bayonetta has pretty low killing potential though. It only feel like her kill power is high because she can 0 to death or combo (both of which can be DIed).

Her smash attacks are great moves, pretty powerful as is, but she's the one character who can consistently hit a full charge smash attack mainly because of Witch Time.

You have to remember you have a hit a FRESH WITCH TIME. There is no way to actually "consistently" hit a full charge smash attack. Her smash attack without charge is fairly average, it doesn't need nerfs.

If she uses an aerial in a combo, the lag from the aerial should be stacked onto the overall landing lag.

It does actually, IDK why no one researched this. Wanted to research myself but don't have the tools.
Once Bayonetta use a special, all her normal aerials will increase her landing lag.

 

[Charey]

The main nerf she needs is to not go as high during her combos so she can't ToD on random combo starters. I would reduce how high she and the target bounce on dABK and make witch twist only go 3/4th hight when hitting an opponent (like PK Thunder.)

Bullet Climax canceling her special landing lag should go, but it looks like a bug how it works now so I expect that to change with any patch.

Maybe a little more special landing lag, like 2 frames more per aerial special. I'm not as sure for this one, she seems to recover a bit too quickly now from throwing out moves but it would be easy to overdo this to make her too vulnerable when landing.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

Bayonetta has pretty low killing potential though. It only feel like her kill power is high because she can 0 to death or combo (both of which can be DIed).

Bair and dair are both great moves. Uair is also capable of killing and doesn't require the highest percentage to kill. All three smash attacks, and neutral B. I'd hardly say she has low killing potential. Talk to Mario or Sonic about that.

You have to remember you have a hit a FRESH WITCH TIME. There is no way to actually "consistently" hit a full charge smash attack. Her smash attack without charge is fairly average, it doesn't need nerfs.

No you don't. If you whiff a WT and then immediately hit another (without regaining any frames back), the effect still lasts for 105 frames which is above a second and a half. At this point you probably won't be able to hit a fuill charge smash attack, but she will definitely get a charge in. And a whiffed WT resets every 21 seconds so it's not like you only have one chance. Moreover, her uncharged smash attacks are on the stronger side and since she can charge them more than any other character (that much is undeniable), a slight nerf wouldn't be the worst.

It does actually, IDK why no one researched this. Wanted to research myself but don't have the tools.
Once Bayonetta use a special, all her normal aerials will increase her landing lag.

Is that so? I would like a reliable source on this. Not that I don't trust you but I haven't noticed any differences.
I would like to ask you what nerfs YOU see fit.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Bair and dair are both great moves. Uair is also capable of killing and doesn't require the highest percentage to kill. All three smash attacks, and neutral B. I'd hardly say she has low killing potential. Talk to Mario or Sonic about that.

Bair and Dair has okay KB. Both has notable startup too.
Mario's bair is faster and weaker, Sonic's bair is similar in terms of power and speed.
Dair's only kill hitbox is at the landing hit or the spike. The landing hit is quite punishable and hard to land.
Uair is very weak, around Falco's Uair. The kill power came from being extremely clost to the blast zone with the help of her combos (which, again, can be DIed).
Her Smashes has high startup and endlag, making it fairly difficult to hit in the neutral.
I am talking about kill potential not kill power. Sheik 1.1.3 had good killing potential despite her kill power is weak, thanks to her 50/50. Sheik's kill potential was nerfed but none of her kill moves lost their kill power.

No you don't. If you whiff a WT and then immediately hit another (without regaining any frames back), the effect still lasts for 105 frames which is above a second and a half. At this point you probably won't be able to hit a fuill charge smash attack, but she will definitely get a charge in. And a whiffed WT resets every 21 seconds so it's not like you only have one chance. Moreover, her uncharged smash attacks are on the stronger side and since she can charge them more than any other character (that much is undeniable), a slight nerf wouldn't be the worst.

Her forward smash attack are weaker AND slower than Mario's (Albeit, quite similar nonetheless)
Her up smash are very slow compared to Mario will only 3% damage difference (which does affect KB).
Her down smash.... no need to explain.
Bayonetta can't instantly move after a Witch Time (for around 35 frames), the Bat within version also has a much lower duration.

Is that so? I would like a reliable source on this. Not that I don't trust you but I haven't noticed any differences.
I would like to ask you what nerfs YOU see fit.

Unfortunately no reliable sources, it is just me.
I thought I was crazy since no one make note of this. Hope you trust me.
I tried 1/4 speed and 2 Bayonettas.
Both Bayonetta UpB, one Uair afterwards (without landing with it). The one that Uair has more landing lag. It happened fairly consistent too, so I don't think I mistaken it.
But I noticed if the Bayonetta uair first then Witch Twist, there is no difference.

EDIT: The nerf I see fit is increase the special landing lag by a few frames. That's pretty much it. Everything else is doesn't really break the balance and should be just notes to her MU.

 

[blackghost]

As long as she pops the target high enough before starting her aerial hits, she can get early kills from a lot of different combo starters. She can also try to sprinkle in liberal amounts of fair 1 to get that extra bit of height, although I believe that makes it easier for the opponent to DI out. Sample combo that I've personally performed before: dtilt > full hop fair 1 > Twist > double jump fair 1 > ABK > reverse dABK > fair 1 > Twist 2 > death. Depending on the character, it turns into a full combo between 30-50% and gets them high enough for death unless you're slow on the inputs and fall too far, in which case you can tack on a fair 1 2 3 or uair at the end.

Regardless, the following moves all function as good combo starters for her, 0-death or no:

utilt
dtilt
fair 1
uair
side special (all variants)
up special

In addition, although I don't think they get true followups, she can use ftilt 3, dash attack, uthrow, and dthrow to put the opponent in really bad positions and threaten a combo if they don't react properly.

All of this ignores Witch Time as well, which turns literally every one of her moves into a combo starter because time dilation.

EDIT: Changing the subject, and hopefully sparking a bit of interesting discussion, how would one nerf Bayonetta without gutting her as a character?

good combo starters dont make them good normal. uptilt is horrible outside of anti air and even then you'd just use wt. fair 1 doesnt truly combo all the time.
upair into what exactly?
side special on the ground is a terrible move.once again combo starter doesnt equal good normal.
WT is good no argument there.
even her dtilt can be reacted to and shielded easily.
shes gets high reward pff her moves becuas eeach move is a commitment which is why she struggles in matchups against character with extremely good frame data or ranged punishes.

 

[ぱみゅ]

While it won't covert into a death combo (not without WT), Uair is a nice combo starter at low%, as shown by 9B.
Dtilt is Frame 7, meaning is unrealistically reactable, it is more or less her prime move (neutral, poking, spacing, punishing, pressure with Bullet Arts, safety, combo starter), even better than jab in virtually everything.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

While it won't covert into a death combo (not without WT), Uair is a nice combo starter at low%, as shown by 9B.
Dtilt is Frame 7, meaning is unrealistically reactable, it is more or less her prime move (neutral, poking, spacing, punishing, pressure with Bullet Arts, safety, combo starter), even better than jab in virtually everything.

Uair can chain some simpler combos, but the reverse nature of the move make it pretty hard to combo with it.
Frame 7 is pretty average for a Dtilt.
Dtilt is undoubtedly good though.

 

[teluoborg]

Bayonetta has pretty low killing potential though. It only feel like her kill power is high because she can 0 to death or combo (both of which can be DIed).

That's quite wrong though.
Here are the options Bayo has to kill without relying on here withc time or 0-death :
-Bair
-Uair (can be set up by a single side B in the air)
-Dair on stage
-Fthrow at high percents
-Nair, Dair and up B edgeguards

Again, and like every other aspect of Bayonetta, that alone isn't broken. She isn't the best character at killing with a single move, but cumulated with the rest of her moveset, especially considering how high or how far offstage she can go place them it makes her killing potential very strong even without relying on 0-deaths or on WT.


Bayo doesn't really struggle in any field, right now the only problem Bayo players have is adapting when they can't cheese people because they don't have enough exp with the char to deal with all the situations.


ALSO I propose that everyone stops using this thread until 05/10 to see if there's a smash patch and if/how Bayo is touched.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Silly question, but what's special about May 10?

 

[SoccerStar9001]

That's quite wrong though.
Here are the options Bayo has to kill without relying on here withc time or 0-death :
-Bair
-Uair (can be set up by a single side B in the air)
-Dair on stage
-Fthrow at high percents
-Nair, Dair and up B edgeguards

Bair has Sonic's kill power and speed. It is pretty good.
Uair is very weak, at kill %, ABK can struggle to link into Uair.
Dair only kill hitbox is the landing one, very punishable and fairly hard to land.
Fthrow is a weak throw, KO at 150%+ at the edge. Basically Marth's Uthrow, but limited to the edge.
Edgeguarding is edgeguarding, it depends more on the opponent.
Most her KO moves can be fairly hard to land without relying on her combos.

Bayo doesn't really struggle in any field, right now the only problem Bayo players have is adapting when they can't cheese people because they don't have enough exp with the char to deal with all the situations.

She appears to struggle when it comes to approach.

ALSO I propose that everyone stops using this thread until 05/10 to see if there's a smash patch and if/how Bayo is touched.

5/10? Why would there be a patch then?

 

[teluoborg]

There's a nintendo maintenance scheduled on that date. No smash patch is announced but 1.1.5 wasn't announced either so there.
Also to answer :

Uair is very weak, at kill %, ABK can struggle to link into Uair.
Dair only kill hitbox is the landing one, very punishable and fairly hard to land.
Fthrow is a weak throw, KO at 150%+ at the edge. Basically Marth's Uthrow, but limited to the edge.
Edgeguarding is edgeguarding, it depends more on the opponent.
Most her KO moves can be fairly hard to land without relying on her combos.

Uair kills as reliably as ZSS', and if there's one thing Bayo doesn't struggle to do it's to put her opponents high in the air.
The first hitbox of Dair leads in the second one, the second one is HUGE and it has less landing lag than ZSS'. Tell me when was the last time you punished ZSS' Dair landing.
Fthrow kills earlier than Marth's Uthrow and even then there are a lot of characters that do not have a kill throw.
Edgeguarding depends on the opponent but not every characters have the same edgeguarding tools, especially tools like Dair, Nair or Up B that have long lasting disjointed hitboxes that will send people at very low angles coupled to a very good recovery that allows you to go hit your opponent very far offstage and still be able to recover.

None of those moves are hard to land. They can be dodged of course but none of them really put Bayonetta at risk.

She appears to struggle when it comes to approach.

She might. But really when you can deal 40 to 70% with a single opening you really aren't pressed to commit even if you don't have the lead. She has too many safe moves that can set up damaging combos to need to throw out unsafe moves in the neutral.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

There's a nintendo maintenance scheduled on that date. No smash patch is announced but 1.1.5 wasn't announced either so there.

I thought it not a Smash Maintenance, it was pretty a mainenance on everything I think. It happens often.

Uair kills as reliably as ZSS', and if there's one thing Bayo doesn't struggle to do it's to put her opponents high in the air.
The first hitbox of Dair leads in the second one, the second one is HUGE and it has less landing lag than ZSS'. Tell me when was the last time you punished ZSS' Dair landing.
Fthrow kills earlier than Marth's Uthrow and even then there are a lot of characters that do not have a kill throw.
Edgeguarding depends on the opponent but not every characters have the same edgeguarding tools, especially tools like Dair, Nair or Up B that have long lasting disjointed hitboxes that will send people at very low angles coupled to a very good recovery that allows you to go hit your opponent very far offstage and still be able to recover.

None of those moves are hard to land. They can be dodged of course but none of them really put Bayonetta at risk.

ZSS's uair isn't really that strong either, it is used to combo into UpB. Bayonetta can only drag her opponents high up with her combos, she doesn't get much from having her opponents up high.

Only to heel of dair lead to the second hit, it is a rather small hitbox and also hard to land without her combos. It has 2 frames less landing lag than ZSS, but it is fairly punishable due to it being slow. ZSS's dair is hard to punish because she fly down so quickly.

Fthrow kills earlier than Marth's uthrow, but that isn't anything impressive anyways. A lot of character has deadlier and more useful throws. Fthrow is still very weak for a kill throw.

Like I said, edgeguarding depends more on the character. Although Mario is, imo, better at edgeguarding than her since he has great air speed and faster attacks. Bayonetta's edgeguarding has flaws like slow air speed, fairly slow aerials and using a wrong move could lead to a SD.

Most of these moves are fairly slow and largely predictable, I still stand by the idea that her kill potential is limited.

She might. But really when you can deal 40 to 70% with a single opening you really aren't pressed to commit even if you don't have the lead. She has too many safe moves that can set up damaging combos to need to throw out unsafe moves in the neutral.

Oh hey, this kind of comments again. I don't really remember any combos that deal 40 to 70%, it is usually around 15 to 35%.
She don't actually have that much safe moves, most of her move is quite unsafe.

 

[teluoborg]

Okit's know quite obvious that you don't know what you are talking about, so I'm going to reply to your post with hard data and I won't reply until you drop you "I think that" and others "It appears that".

Uair is a kill move for ZSS, she can use it to kill from a Dthrow mixup starting 130%, less with rage. Bayo's Uair is exactly the same : combo at low percents, kill at high percents. The only difference is that because it has higher base knockback rage has a more important effect on it.

The only hitbox from Dair that doesn't spike is on the first half of the move (aka not the part you'll be using when landing), and then even at the beginning of the move it's only one hitbox out of three that doesn't spike. ZSS falls faster but the hitbox is way smaller so you don't have to go out of your way to outspace it.

Fthrow is a weak killthrow but it still kills. I don't think you've played enough characters without kill throws to understand how important this is.

Mario doesn't have gigantic disjointed hitboxes, he can't make them last longer or interrupt them faster if he wants, he doesn't have a Dair which forms a literal wall and doesn't need to be aimed since the sourspot is a spike (hello ntsc melee falco), he can't gimp people that are above him with a disjointed up B that sends people at a 40° angle. And the only time I see Bayo players killing themselves offstage is when they panic and use their second jump before their first up B (which means never in competitive play). Oh and I forgot about bullet climax that forces you to recover low and can even kill you at 150% without Bayo taking any risk at all.

Oh hey, this kind of comments again. I don't really remember any combos that deal 40 to 70%, it is usually around 15 to 35%.

Alright let's do some basic maths :
Dtilt + WT + ABK*2 + Bair
Even if you only count the sourspots
6 + 6 + 6*2 + 10 = 34
34% for the simplest and shortest combo.

How do you even do a 15% combo as Bayonetta ? Except by not finishing your jab sequence I mean.

She don't actually have that much safe moves, most of her move is quite unsafe.

You are wrong, most of her moves have less than 20 ending lag. Compare that to the frame data of any other character.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Uair is a kill move for ZSS, she can use it to kill from a Dthrow mixup starting 130%, less with rage. Bayo's Uair is exactly the same : combo at low percents, kill at high percents. The only difference is that because it has higher base knockback rage has a more important effect on it.

I didn't deny Uair is a kill move, I said it is pretty weak. It is also somewhat hard to land since it comes from behind and is fairly slow.

The only hitbox from Dair that doesn't spike is on the first half of the move (aka not the part you'll be using when landing), and then even at the beginning of the move it's only one hitbox out of three that doesn't spike. ZSS falls faster but the hitbox is way smaller so you don't have to go out of your way to outspace it.

This effect kicks in at frame 25, I don't think it will be easy to land that. But I must admit, didn't know Bayonetta's dair guarantee a spike on the later animation.
ZSS's dair hitbox is smaller, but her dair is very fast so getting to her is harder. Another thing is ZSS doesn't use the move that often, just as Sheik rarely use Dair (though ZSS is not as rare).

Fthrow is a weak killthrow but it still kills. I don't think you've played enough characters without kill throws to understand how important this is.

Perhaps. But it really doesn't change the fact that: it is weak, it is limited to the edge, her grabs are bad to begin with.
This doesn't improve her kill potential by much.

Mario doesn't have gigantic disjointed hitboxes, he can't make them last longer or interrupt them faster if he wants, he doesn't have a Dair which forms a literal wall and doesn't need to be aimed since the sourspot is a spike (hello ntsc melee falco), he can't gimp people that are above him with a disjointed up B that sends people at a 40° angle. And the only time I see Bayo players killing themselves offstage is when they panic and use their second jump before their first up B (which means never in competitive play). Oh and I forgot about bullet climax that forces you to recover low and can even kill you at 150% without Bayo taking any risk at all.

Mario has great air speed and fast attack speed, he got cape and fludd too.
Not sure if you trying to argue Mario is not good at edgeguarding.
Don't remember saying Bayonetta's edgeguarding is bad either, just flawed and not as good as Mario's imo.

Alright let's do some basic maths :
Dtilt + WT + ABK*2 + Bair
Even if you only count the sourspots
6 + 6 + 6*2 + 10 = 34
34% for the simplest and shortest combo(???????).

How do you even do a 15% combo as Bayonetta ? Except by not finishing your jab sequence I mean.

I know ABK can followup with a Bair, but I though that was not a true combo? I didn't factor dtilt.
Dtilt + WTx2 + ABKx2 + Uair.
6 + 12 + 14 + 9 = 41.
How did you get 70%???? Even 50% is hard to get without Witch Time.

15% by Dive Kick and Fair combo or DIed ones.

You are wrong, most of her moves have less than 20 ending lag. Compare that to the frame data of any other character.

Her ground moves are overall pretty slow, but I do know her aerials have low endlag due to her combo nature.
Her approach is quite unsafe though.

EDIT: Honestly though, this isn't the best place to argue about this. So let's drop it and agree to disagree.

 

[blackghost]

where did 70 percent come from?
teluoborg

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

https://twitter.com/Ge0_Smash/status/730227964152053760

they got out of her death combo consistently on stream, mostly just information to share.

 

[Bleezyy]

It seems like she has absolutely no weaknesses. There is no free fall after all the flying and jumping around she does , she's extremely fast , has a pretty deadly counter when she turns characters to slow mode or w.e. it's just too many pros to her con's her combos are deadly one mistake its over . she honestly probably should be banned . she's just too good

 

[SoccerStar9001]

It seems like she has absolutely no weaknesses.

Which is far from true.
Lackluster framedata.
Struggles to approach.
Has light weight and easy to juggle due to being tall.
Arguably worst dodges in the game.

she's extremely fast ,

Her mobility is below average, and her side special can only be used once without landing or hitting a target.

has a pretty deadly counter when she turns characters to slow mode

Which is another baitable counter, it can't be spammed either due to the decay.
Plus, the reason people consider it deadly is the 0 to death combo, which can be DIed.

one mistake its over

This is a mere exaggeration and is often completely untrue.

she honestly probably should be banned . she's just too good

Sheik, Diddy, Rosalina are extremely good too, and they have a lot of results to back up the idea for a ban (not that I aim for it).

 

[Bleezyy]

Idk bro. I used her myself she felt pretty fast and had a a lot of options. Shiek, diddy and rosalina are good too but they have weaknesses. Shiek can die pretty easily same with diddy and rosalina . I don't have much trouble fighting any of them because I can see weaknesses . maybe I need more time with bayo but right now it seems really bad for most people

 

[AAA Battery]

I definitely won't say that people just need to learn the matchup because that's bogus. Though... Bayonetta still honestly has some brutal advantages that can make her debatably worse than Meta Knight or Brawl Ice Climbers. So I want to say she should be banned, but I vote that a patch may solve the issue... though then again, Nintendo is kinda messed up at the moment so I say she should be banned... temporarily? :/

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Shiek can die pretty easily same with diddy and rosalina .

Bayonetta can die easily too, she is lighter than Diddy with arguably worst framedata than all three characters.

maybe I need more time with bayo but right now it seems really bad for most people

Well, you only hear complaining because those who complain struggles and those who doesn't struggle doesn't complain.

I definitely won't say that people just need to learn the matchup because that's bogus.

Why is that the case? If you don't learn the MU you can't input proper data.

Bayonetta still honestly has some brutal advantages that can make her debatably worse than Meta Knight or Brawl Ice Climbers.

Unlike MK, however, she doesn't have overwhelming results. Comparing her to Brawl MK is flawed, Brawl MK was mained by a lot of the top players (over 50%?).
She is definitely not as overwhelming as Brawl MK, otherwise she would have taken Pound.

So I want to say she should be banned, but I vote that a patch may solve the issue...

Personally, I don't see much reason to ban her. It isn't like she guarantee victories and she is undefeated.
The only real problem is the bandwagon for now. Until she starts to actually take over the meta, she doesn't deserve to be banned imo.

 

[AAA Battery]

Bayonetta can die easily too, she is lighter than Diddy with arguably worst framedata than all three characters.


Well, you only hear complaining because those who complain struggles and those who doesn't struggle doesn't complain.


Why is that the case? If you don't learn the MU you can't input proper data.


Unlike MK, however, she doesn't have overwhelming results. Comparing her to Brawl MK is flawed, Brawl MK was mained by a lot of the top players (over 50%?).
She is definitely not as overwhelming as Brawl MK, otherwise she would have taken Pound.


Personally, I don't see much reason to ban her. It isn't like she guarantee victories and she is undefeated.
The only real problem is the bandwagon for now. Until she starts to actually take over the meta, she doesn't deserve to be banned imo.

Honestly, what do I know? :/ A lot of what I say has to do with mentality. I'm actually studying the matchup against Bayonetta myself and see lots of ways to exploit her weaknesses. In fact, I wonder how effective Yoshi's down air would be thanks to it having multiple hits and coupling that with amazing aerial mobility so I would have a potential Witch Time bait... or using eggs more for combos like Toon Link with bombs. Or maybe just swap to Rosalina entirely for it and rely mostly on Luma and his unmatched disjoint... honestly, I'm more concerned about Mewtwo and am looking for strategies to take it down since I plan on going to CEO and I know Abadango will be there.

 

[leesinger]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJNu49zOkXE&feature=youtu.be

End thread. I seriously think this thread needs to be closed now. The last 10 pages of posts have been random people with no evidence or data to back up their claims saying they think she is too good. She has still yet to win any big tournaments. The 2gg fresh saga had three top level bayos and not one of them even broke top 8. people are learning how to avoid her combos and are exposing her mediocre neutral game. Bayo in my opinion is a pub stomp character. She exposes players for having weak neutral and bad habits and also punishes people who have no matchup experience. This is not a warrant for a ban and you all should feel ashamed for even proposing one in the first place on a character who will probably end up outside of top 5 in the cast once people really start figuring out how to beat her. Shoutouts to Soccerstar9001 for constantly addressing all of the rediculous claims made by the "anti bayo" crowd, I would go crazy if I had to endure all of their stupidity. So once again please any mods that are monitoring this thread, I think it deserves to be closed until further notice. (It should never have been made in the first place, but alas the smash 4 community are a bunch of whiners).

 

[Zmac122]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJNu49zOkXE&feature=youtu.be

End thread. I seriously think this thread needs to be closed now. The last 10 pages of posts have been random people with no evidence or data to back up their claims saying they think she is too good. She has still yet to win any big tournaments. The 2gg fresh saga had three top level bayos and not one of them even broke top 8. people are learning how to avoid her combos and are exposing her mediocre neutral game. Bayo in my opinion is a pub stomp character. She exposes players for having weak neutral and bad habits and also punishes people who have no matchup experience. This is not a warrant for a ban and you all should feel ashamed for even proposing one in the first place on a character who will probably end up outside of top 5 in the cast once people really start figuring out how to beat her. Shoutouts to Soccerstar9001 for constantly addressing all of the rediculous claims made by the "anti bayo" crowd, I would go crazy if I had to endure all of their stupidity. So once again please any mods that are monitoring this thread, I think it deserves to be closed until further notice. (It should never have been made in the first place, but alas the smash 4 community are a bunch of whiners).

Bayo inst that bad. I think she has very strong points though when she has stage, but that can be said about most of the top tier baes.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

Which is far from true.
Lackluster framedata.
Struggles to approach.
Has light weight and easy to juggle due to being tall.
Arguably worst dodges in the game.

Are you kidding me? Her frame data is not lackluster. Ganondorf, Link, Zelda, Falco, Ike, Lucario, Shulk, and much more of the cast has it far worse than she does or probably ever will. A frame 4 up B with 3 frames of endlag? Frame 5 counter? More than half of her aerials only have 12 frames of landing lag? Frame 7 grab, dtilt, utilt, and fair. Frame 9 uair, nair and jab. Average human reaction time is about 13 frames FYI...her frame data is no where near close to bad. No character with "lackluster" frame data could be arguably the best character in the game (without some fundamentally broken attribute). So it comes down to she has bad frame data but has a broken attribute, or her frame data is actually pretty good and she's just a well built character. You decide.

And we have seen time and time again that approaching with Bayo isn't that difficult. Run up Up B, DABK, bair, or bullet arts to force approaches. And grounded side B may not be safe but that doesn't mean it's some horrible option. Most characters rely on moves that can still be punished because they truly struggle to approach.

Play Fox, Falcon, or any other fast-faller (which I know Bayo mains aren't too familiar with, it's a character who's gravity (the force that pulls us down) is greater than that of other characters so they ultimately go towards the ground faster) for a week if you wanna know what it's like to really be juggled. Being floatier, able to go any direction in the air, using an up B twice with no fast fall, a dair with more BKB/KBG than Ness's bthrow, and having a frame 1 combo breaker makes it a hell of a lot easier to get out of juggles. Bayonetta is one of the easiest characters to escape juggles with.

OR arguably the best dodges in the game. Being able to escape confirms is pretty great...If you're obvious about your dodges, then yes, Bayo has one of the worst. But no one throws out a dodge with the intention of being read. Her dodge is actually pretty great.

Sheik, Diddy, Rosalina are extremely good too, and they have a lot of results to back up the idea for a ban (not that I aim for it).

But let's look at the facts for a minute here. First of all, these characters have all been around since October 2014. That's over a year and a half. Bayonetta has been around for...3 months now. These characters also have major weaknesses. Sheik has a hard time killing. A VERY hard time killing. Diddy's recovery options are extremely linear and gimp-able. Plus his banana can totally be used against him in the same way he uses it against his opponent. Rosalina is one of the easiest characters to edge guard off stage and getting rid of Luma destroys Rosa's game plan for some time. While Bayo has some arguable weaknesses, none of them limit her as much as these characters' weaknesses limit them.

 

[Strong-Arm]

People who complain about Bayonetta and spout out completely wrong info is frustrating for the people that actually know what they are talking about.

 

[Mr. Johan]

That people are now clamoring that Bayonetta shouldn't be banned now because it was discovered that UpB UAir off the top can be avoided by high speed SDI, in a game installment that severely cut back on how potent SDI was in order to facilitate regular DI, in a game series where simple inputs is the main selling point, just seems like missing the forest for the trees to me.

 

[Respect38]

There are still some redesigns that need to happen with the character, obviously, but I'm looking forward to seeing what Bayonetta players adapt into doing if the standard ceiling combo doesn't work anymore; that is, assuming that you can tell visually whether or not they're going to successfully SDI out and be out of the range of your uair, then what options do you have now that they're way above you? [at the very least, you'd think that you could safely get to the ground to avoid being punished for the massive landing lag, and just consider it a good-damage combo]

Either way, I don't understand why ESAM waited until just now to share this. Did he just want the views from being the first person to make this video? Did he have some ulterior motive in not sharing it? [Other than being a ****, that is. Any opportunity to tell the Sm4sh community that they're garbage is worth milking, I guess?]

At the very least, since he couldn't test it, he could at least have shared that Pikachu can do it and that it might be possible for other characters to do it as well. Just letting other players be able to test it would have been godsend.

EDIT: He mentions that he said on social media that he was getting out the combo consistently, but I can't find that. If all he said was something like "I'm SDI'ing out of it consistently", then that doesn't tell anyone anything when we're talking about doing something that is arguable intuitive, such as SDI'ing toward the blast zone that's being used to kill you.

 

[sjb.dario]

If people really are being content with not banning Bayonetta just because you can now escape ONE combo out of her numerous combos, then they're in for a very rude awakening.

The thing that makes Bayonetta "OP" is she has so many tools and options under her belt that can be extremely deadly if the opponent makes a mistake. Just knowing how to get out of one move in a certain combo won't cut it imo.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

It seems like she has absolutely no weaknesses. There is no free fall after all the flying and jumping around she does , she's extremely fast , has a pretty deadly counter when she turns characters to slow mode or w.e. it's just too many pros to her con's her combos are deadly one mistake its over . she honestly probably should be banned . she's just too good

Actually unless she grabs a ledge she actually has noticeable landing lag if you get out of her combo/she uses a lot of specials. Like, a lot lot more.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

Actually unless she grabs a ledge she actually has noticeable landing lag if you get out of her combo/she uses a lot of specials. Like, a lot lot more.

I think it's important to note that this weakness can only be exploited if the Bayonetta chooses to go for a combo. This isn't a traditional weakness and pretty hard to compare to other weaknesses. There is nothing Sheik can do to make killing easier. Rosalina can never make herself heavier and she can only do so much to protect Luma. Ganondorf will never just get better frame data. Bayonetta can choose not to go for a wild combo and in turn will not suffer the lag. And like you said, Bayo can in-fact nullify said "weakness" by going to the ledge. She can also opt to WT or Neutral B which also nullifies the lag.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I think it's important to note that this weakness can only be exploited if the Bayonetta chooses to go for a combo. This isn't a traditional weakness and pretty hard to compare to other weaknesses. There is nothing Sheik can do to make killing easier. Rosalina can never make herself heavier and she can only do so much to protect Luma. Ganondorf will never just get better frame data. Bayonetta can choose not to go for a wild combo and in turn will not suffer the lag. And like you said, Bayo can in-fact nullify said "weakness" by going to the ledge. She can also opt to WT or Neutral B which also nullifies the lag.

Sure she can but then she loses out on potential damage.

WT or Neutral B both have huge repercussions if she uses it to cover her landing and you see it coming. Normal B is actually a bad idea to land with most if not all of the time.

Air-dodging does not stop this lag from what I have seen and even then air-dodging into the ground causes huge landing lag anyways.

Also I know you mensioned Frame data but on the whole her start up is actually pretty bad on a lot of moves, there are exceptions. Mostly Side B and Up B but she does pay for it in terms of landing lag if she goes for stuff.

 

[Respect38]

Normal B is actually a bad idea to land with most if not all of the time.

Worse than landing from the maximum possible stacked landing lag? Could you share as to why?

[As someone who doesn't own Bayonetta and doesn't see many Bayonetta cancel lag in this manner, is this the tech that we're discussing? As in, this hasn't been patched out or anything.]

 

[Deleted member 269706]

Sure she can but then she loses out on potential damage.

WT or Neutral B both have huge repercussions if she uses it to cover her landing and you see it coming. Normal B is actually a bad idea to land with most if not all of the time.

Air-dodging does not stop this lag from what I have seen and even then air-dodging into the ground causes huge landing lag anyways.

Also I know you mensioned Frame data but on the whole her start up is actually pretty bad on a lot of moves, there are exceptions. Mostly Side B and Up B but she does pay for it in terms of landing lag if she goes for stuff.

I do understand what you're saying but she still has the opportunity to nullify the lag, or rather, not even risk having lag. Maybe she will miss out on some damage, but if someone is really playing to win and going for the most optimal outcome, then they aren't going to risk it if they don't have to. They're going to build up some damage, and then get back down before they can get punished, rinse and repeat.

I totally get where you're coming from, but how many players are actually going to miss a combo, keep going, and then just land in a way that allows them to get punished? Since Bayonetta generally combos upwards, if someone breaks out of her combo, they will be at around the same height as her (maybe a little higher). It's also worth noting that they'll be distanced from Bayonetta. At this point, Bayonetta's goal is not to keep going with the combo, but get back to the ground. The opponent now knowing that she will suffer some lag has to do the following: (a) stay close so that they can punish, (b) stay far so that she can't hit him/her with any aerials or any other moves while she is drifting wherever she pleases, (c) be fast so they can get the best punish, (d) be slow to avoid a WT and confirm that she is indeed in lag, (e) do all of this while falling back to the ground.

At the end of the day, I feel like people act like this weakness holds her back in the way that every other character's weaknesses do, but I really don't think that it does. I'm not saying that the weakness can't be exploited because obviously it can and has been, but this "weakness" isn't as cut and dry as people make it out to be. In theory, yeah it makes a lot of sense. But like I said, how many times will a Bayonetta just throw out a ton of specials in the air while the opponent just wants for her to land? That doesn't happen. The only times Bayonetta is going to experience serious lag is when she's already deep into a major combo and either gets a kill or is damn close to the top. And if the opponent escapes with the new SDI trick, well he/she is above her, so half of her lag isn't even in jeopardy of being punished because the opponent is focused on finding a safe way down to not get hit by one of her aerials.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Her frame data is not lackluster. Ganondorf, Link, Zelda, Falco, Ike, Lucario, Shulk, and much more of the cast has it far worse than she does or probably ever will.

So she has good framedata because her framedata is better than people with very bad framedata?
Greninja isn't fast because Sonic, Falcon, and Little has better run speed!!!!!!
Most of her moves are average to below average startup. Her dtilt is frame 7, compared with Mario and Luigi's frame 5 dtilt. It isn't a slow dtilt, but not a super fast one either.
And Bayonetta's UpB has short horizontal hitboxes and doesn't do much on shield, plus Mario (and Doc) has a frame 3 Up B.

Average human reaction time is about 13 frames FYI...her frame data is no where near close to bad.

No ganon bad, lackluster. While frame 7 is below human reaction time, no one is ever waiting for you to attack first. People playing Smash is constantly reading each other. Even if a move is faster than HRT, the slower move is harder to land than the quick one because of buffering or OoS.

And we have seen time and time again that approaching with Bayo isn't that difficult. Run up Up B, DABK, bair, or bullet arts to force approaches. And grounded side B may not be safe but that doesn't mean it's some horrible option. Most characters rely on moves that can still be punished because they truly struggle to approach.

Wait what? Are you saying these are great approach options? Just "run up and UpB"?
It is like saying Little Mac's dash attack is a great approach option.

Play Fox, Falcon, or any other fast-faller (which I know Bayo mains aren't too familiar with, it's a character who's gravity (the force that pulls us down) is greater than that of other characters so they ultimately go towards the ground faster) for a week if you wanna know what it's like to really be juggled. Being floatier, able to go any direction in the air, using an up B twice with no fast fall, a dair with more BKB/KBG than Ness's bthrow, and having a frame 1 combo breaker makes it a hell of a lot easier to get out of juggles. Bayonetta is one of the easiest characters to escape juggles with.

OR arguably the best dodges in the game. Being able to escape confirms is pretty great...If you're obvious about your dodges, then yes, Bayo has one of the worst. But no one throws out a dodge with the intention of being read. Her dodge is actually pretty great.

Only 4 character has greater gravity than Bayonetta, while only 8 has higher fall speed. Bayonetta is not a floaty character at all. Batwithin is only one frame faster than the best airdodge in the game, claiming it prevent Bayonetta from being juggled at all is a flat out lie.
Batwithin doesn't beat all combos and has a lot of ending lag. People agree while BW is great, her dodges are certainly not.

But let's look at the facts for a minute here. First of all, these characters have all been around since October 2014. That's over a year and a half. Bayonetta has been around for...3 months now. These characters also have major weaknesses. Sheik has a hard time killing. A VERY hard time killing. Diddy's recovery options are extremely linear and gimp-able. Plus his banana can totally be used against him in the same way he uses it against his opponent. Rosalina is one of the easiest characters to edge guard off stage and getting rid of Luma destroys Rosa's game plan for some time. While Bayo has some arguable weaknesses, none of them limit her as much as these characters' weaknesses limit them.

So it doesn't matter if Sheik is very good, because she has weaknesses.
And it doesn't matter if Bayonetta has weaknesses, because she is very good.
Double standards?
The fact is that they undeniablly have loads and loads of results, where Bayonetta didn't even win Pound or the 2GG Pink Fresh Sage (thinge). Counting only results since her release, 4 characters have more results than her, while Sheik has the same amount of results with her.

That people are now clamoring that Bayonetta shouldn't be banned now because it was discovered that UpB UAir off the top can be avoided by high speed SDI, in a game installment that severely cut back on how potent SDI was in order to facilitate regular DI, in a game series where simple inputs is the main selling point, just seems like missing the forest for the trees to me.

We have always clamored for it, even before that was proven.

If people really are being content with not banning Bayonetta just because you can now escape ONE combo out of her numerous combos, then they're in for a very rude awakening.

The thing that makes Bayonetta "OP" is she has so many tools and options under her belt that can be extremely deadly if the opponent makes a mistake. Just knowing how to get out of one move in a certain combo won't cut it imo.

I still remember when Bayonetta perform 10 zero to death at Pound.......

 

[Deleted member 269706]

So she has good framedata because her framedata is better than people with very bad framedata?
Greninja isn't fast because Sonic, Falcon, and Little has better run speed!!!!!!
Most of her moves are average to below average startup. Her dtilt is frame 7, compared with Mario and Luigi's frame 5 dtilt. It isn't a slow dtilt, but not a super fast one either.
And Bayonetta's UpB has short horizontal hitboxes and doesn't do much on shield, plus Mario (and Doc) has a frame 3 Up B.

You seem to be missing the point here...Her frame data isn't as bad as you're making it sound. And of the examples I gave, I really don't think they have "very bad" frame data either. I mean we've seen Lucario's and Ike's at the top of state PR boards. I'm trying to figure out exactly what you consider good frame data at this point because it seems like anything that is worse than Bayonetta is strictly horrible. Having you actually back-up your claims of "lackluster" frame data instead of just repeating it over and over would be appreciated. I'm not saying her frame data is great, but it certainly is better than the majority of the cast.

No ganon bad, lackluster. While frame 7 is below human reaction time, no one is ever waiting for you to attack first. People playing Smash is constantly reading each other. Even if a move is faster than HRT, the slower move is harder to land than the quick one because of buffering or OoS.

Are you kidding? People wait for others to attack first all the time. That's kind of what the neutral is. Either way, Bayonetta players shouldn't be complaining about hard approaching is as she gets the most off of winning the neutral. If Bayonetta had faster frame data, do you even know how good she would be?

Wait what? Are you saying these are great approach options? Just "run up and UpB"?
It is like saying Little Mac's dash attack is a great approach option.

Perhaps run up and upB wasn't the best example (though I've seen players utilize it on various streams and get away with it). Up B however is still a great tool. Whether it's OoS or just out of no where, it's one of the least punishable moves. Hitboxes come out frame 4 and go away 3 frames before the move ends. I can hardly see where you got this comparison from as Mac's dash attack has over 8x the amount of endlag (25 frames) and usually doesn't link into anything else if it connects.

Only 4 character has greater gravity than Bayonetta, while only 8 has higher fall speed. Bayonetta is not a floaty character at all. Batwithin is only one frame faster than the best airdodge in the game, claiming it prevent Bayonetta from being juggled at all is a flat out lie.
Batwithin doesn't beat all combos and has a lot of ending lag. People agree while BW is great, her dodges are certainly not.

I spoke without checking my sources on Bayonetta's gravity/fall speed, so you're right about that. However, saying Bat Within doesn't help when it comes to being juggled is a lie. That extra frame means a ton. It's the difference between a move connecting and a move whiffing. I'm not claiming that it beats all combos but it certainly beats mis-inputs. I've seen [Falcon's] uair > knee whiff, I've seen [Fox's] falling nair > usmash whiff, I've seen throw combos whiff all because of Bat Within. It's a very useful tool. It would seem as though you don't consider Bat Within a part of the dodge, and rather it's own animation. Would that be safe to assume, or do you consider them the same thing? Because I see them as one in the same. But if you see it another way, it would be nice to know.

So it doesn't matter if Sheik is very good, because she has weaknesses.
And it doesn't matter if Bayonetta has weaknesses, because she is very good.
Double standards?
The fact is that they undeniablly have loads and loads of results, where Bayonetta didn't even win Pound or the 2GG Pink Fresh Sage (thinge). Counting only results since her release, 4 characters have more results than her, while Sheik has the same amount of results with her.

Again you're missing the point. I'm not resorting to double standards, I'm utilizing logic. Sheik's weaknesses are stuck with her always. No matter what, killing will always be difficult for Sheik. Her neutral game and frame data are godlike, but when it comes to killing, there is nothing she can do. Bayonetta on the other hand, she can control her weakness. Bayonetta's major weakness is her endlag, yes? If a Bayonetta player opts to not go for wild combos, she won't suffer the endlag. If the Bayonetta goes for a combo and then ends on the ledge, she doesn't suffer the endlag. Bayonetta has tools to help her get around her weakness. No other character has that.

You also fail to recognize that Bayonetta has been out for a fraction of the time the other characters have been out. Her meta isn't nearly as developed as other characters, and yet she has more results than so many characters who have had more time to develop their metas.

So often people say "Oh he's an awesome [insert character here] player!" yet they fail to realize that he isn't an awesome [insert character] player, but rather an awesome player who happens to use said character. None of the good players out there use Bayonetta. THAT is why she doesn't have results.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

You seem to be missing the point here...Her frame data isn't as bad as you're making it sound. And of the examples I gave, I really don't think they have "very bad" frame data either. I mean we've seen Lucario's and Ike's at the top of state PR boards. I'm trying to figure out exactly what you consider good frame data at this point because it seems like anything that is worse than Bayonetta is strictly horrible. Having you actually back-up your claims of "lackluster" frame data instead of just repeating it over and over would be appreciated. I'm not saying her frame data is great, but it certainly is better than the majority of the cast.

Good framedata is like Mario, Sheik, Luigi, Pikachu, etc.
http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Bayonetta
Bayonetta's only move that is faster than frame 7 is UpB, which is not very useful in the neutral. She also only has 4 frame 7 moves (Utilt, Dtilt, Fair, ABK), and the speed of her quick moves are only average compared to their own kind.
Bayonetta's FSmash is a little weaker than Mario's FSmash and has more startup and endlag.

Are you kidding? People wait for others to attack first all the time. That's kind of what the neutral is. Either way, Bayonetta players shouldn't be complaining about hard approaching is as she gets the most off of winning the neutral. If Bayonetta had faster frame data, do you even know how good she would be?

You must misunderstood. When I said wait, I meant do nothing, no even shield or move.
Bayonetta players doesn't complain about how hard it is to approach.

Perhaps run up and upB wasn't the best example (though I've seen players utilize it on various streams and get away with it). Up B however is still a great tool. Whether it's OoS or just out of no where, it's one of the least punishable moves. Hitboxes come out frame 4 and go away 3 frames before the move ends. I can hardly see where you got this comparison from as Mac's dash attack has over 8x the amount of endlag (25 frames) and usually doesn't link into anything else if it connects.

My point was the idea of "run up and UpB" is a good approach is stupid, I wasn't comparing 100%.

I spoke without checking my sources on Bayonetta's gravity/fall speed, so you're right about that. However, saying Bat Within doesn't help when it comes to being juggled is a lie. That extra frame means a ton. It's the difference between a move connecting and a move whiffing. I'm not claiming that it beats all combos but it certainly beats mis-inputs. I've seen [Falcon's] uair > knee whiff, I've seen [Fox's] falling nair > usmash whiff, I've seen throw combos whiff all because of Bat Within. It's a very useful tool. It would seem as though you don't consider Bat Within a part of the dodge, and rather it's own animation. Would that be safe to assume, or do you consider them the same thing? Because I see them as one in the same. But if you see it another way, it would be nice to know.

Maybe you should read my comment again, where did I type "Bat Within doesn't help against juggling"?
All I said was, that is only one frame, it doesn't suddenly cause 50% of the combos to stop working. Plus, her dodges has a ton of endlag.
You have mention you seen combos whiff because of Bat Within, but are you sure it was a frame 1 Bat Within? Bat within has 4 active frames, you could have seen a frame 2 or frame 3 Bat Within.

Again you're missing the point. I'm not resorting to double standards, I'm utilizing logic. Sheik's weaknesses are stuck with her always. No matter what, killing will always be difficult for Sheik. Her neutral game and frame data are godlike, but when it comes to killing, there is nothing she can do. Bayonetta on the other hand, she can control her weakness. Bayonetta's major weakness is her endlag, yes? If a Bayonetta player opts to not go for wild combos, she won't suffer the endlag. If the Bayonetta goes for a combo and then ends on the ledge, she doesn't suffer the endlag. Bayonetta has tools to help her get around her weakness. No other character has that.

If Bayonetta doesn't go for wild combos she won't suffer endlag?
????
Landing lag is a part of her weakness, but certainly not her only weakness. Without combo specials, her damage racking ability is below average. Her other weaknesses are bad approach, lackluster framedata, fairly light, being tall, not many reliable KO moves, and maybe more (or less) as time goes on.
Going for the ledge has a special risk attached to it, she is unable to defend herself. If her opponents goes for a meteor smash, she can't dodge it or she will miss the ledge. Plus, Bayonetta's air speed is below average and her fall speed is very high, she might not even be able to reach the ledge. Heck, they don't even have to wait for her landing.
Getting around weaknesses is part of what makes fighting game interesting, Sheik can get around her weakness by using her godlike speed and framedata.
It is impossible to make a weakness vanish completely. But there are more, often than not, ways to get around it.

You also fail to recognize that Bayonetta has been out for a fraction of the time the other characters have been out. Her meta isn't nearly as developed as other characters, and yet she has more results than so many characters who have had more time to develop their metas.

Maybe you should complain about Cloud first. He is also fairly new yet has the most results counting from his release.
You fail to recognize Bayonetta simply doesn't have overwhelming results, even if her results are among the top 5.
Maybe I should mention since her release, Bayonetta won 46 tournaments. 46 first place in 3 month. Not 100, not 50, 46.
Cloud, the most successful character in this three month, won 74 tournaments. 74 first place in the exact same amount of times.

So often people say "Oh he's an awesome [insert character here] player!" yet they fail to realize that he isn't an awesome [insert character] player, but rather an awesome player who happens to use said character. None of the good players out there use Bayonetta. THAT is why she doesn't have results.

Komorikiri is among the Top 10 ZeRo listed, he uses Bayonetta. 9B is also considered one of Japan's best players.
Despite being the third most used character, the reason she doesn't have results is because no good players play her? Did you really think all of Sheik and Diddy's results came from ZeRo, Void, and Mr. R? Top players only make up a low % of average results.
Sorry, but she, in the end, doesn't have overwhelming results.

 

[blackghost]

It seems like she has absolutely no weaknesses. There is no free fall after all the flying and jumping around she does , she's extremely fast , has a pretty deadly counter when she turns characters to slow mode or w.e. it's just too many pros to her con's her combos are deadly one mistake its over . she honestly probably should be banned . she's just too good

I keep seeing "she's too good" she's unfair. Ect. Where are the wins for this "OP" character? She's not winning tournaments heck she's not placing top 8.
She clearly has some weakness if she's not winning or placing well.

 

[Tizio Random]

I keep seeing "she's too good" she's unfair. Ect. Where are the wins for this "OP" character? She's not winning tournaments heck she's not placing top 8.
She clearly has some weakness if she's not winning or placing well.

I thought it was pretty much enstamblished that the Bayonetta situation is similar to the pre-nerf Luigi one. The character doesn't seem to do incredibly well at top level but at the same time it quite destroys low to mid-high tournaments. It isn't every healthy to the game still. You can't have a characters that roflstomps this kind of players because they are a vast majority.

 

[Charoite]

Cloud does the same at low and mid level play, pre patch luigi was bad because he wasn't designed to be a pseudo grapper with a projectile that was safe on shield, bayo is designed to be the combo and punish character. Bayo could be the best character in the game, she could carrier bad players, but unless she too strong for the other characters to handle then she doesn't need to be banned, because you can win against her.