Banning Bayonetta in Tournaments

[Strong-Arm]

How is it unhealthy for the game? Cause people are too lazy to learn how to adapt or learn how to handle Bayonetta? I feel like the mindset that shes unhealthy is silly because if ppl are going to be like shes unhealthy because ppl lose to her then I guess Cloud, Diddy, and Sheik are unhealthy as well. The argument that she isnt healthy seems extremely opinionated if anything cause what defines unhealthy for the game?

 

[Ghidorah14]

Why is being a "scrub killer" even considered a valid argument at all? The same could be said for other characters.

 

[Kenobi]

By banning Bayonetta, all that would happen is, well, the same thing that happens WITH Bayonetta. All the Bayonetta players would get upset and some might quit. By banning her, you are removing the ability to use who some people call their main. Honestly, it almost seems like a discriminatory act against Bayonetta players. In low level play, yes, she might dominate. But when you look at major tournaments, not a single one has been won by a Bayonetta. She's not prohibiting other players or characters from doing well. Heck, MEWTWO won a major over her and are we banning him? No, its not even in discussion. Also, besides results. look at her matchups. She loses to some of the stupidest and underplayed characters in the game like Olimar, Samus, and Robin(who I believe all have super potential). All in all, Banning Bayonetta is a bad idea because it could injure the player base, discriminates against the players who use her, and she hasn't done anything really banworthy yet.

 

[Tizio Random]

Every character is a potential scrub killer, some are maybe slightly better than others. That wasn't the point of my post. The point was that you couldn't use an argument like "she isn't always top 8 in majors" to defend her because she still has the best tournament results along with Cloud. The character could still use some tweaks on her grounded upb and maybe one or two moves and she would still completely fine in all levels of play. Also, she doesn't needs a ban if this was what you were thinking I was saying.

 

[sjb.dario]

I keep seeing "she's too good" she's unfair. Ect. Where are the wins for this "OP" character? She's not winning tournaments heck she's not placing top 8.
She clearly has some weakness if she's not winning or placing well.

There are also a lot of other high-tier characters that haven't won a major for a long while.

Diddy Kong is a very high-tier character that many consider to be a top 5 or top 10 haracter. But he doesn't win anything that much these days. I don't think that'll convince you that Diddy Kong is not an incredibly good character.

The main argument with Bayo's tourney performance is that players who are mid-level are going toe-to-toe with high/top-level players and are sometimes actually winning (Let's be real, Nairo wouldn't have lost to that Bayo player at Pound if Bayo wasn't around). Obviously, they'll fall off against players who just have a better understanding of Smash 4 as a whole. There hasn't been any top-level player who actually picked up Bayo yet.

Point being, it isn't really that feasible to use major's tourney results yet. My bigger question is why people who say Bayonetta isn't OP can't formulate a good explanation as to why she really isn't. She goes 50/50 with a lot of good characters and just wipes out other characters with the most hilarious ways possible.

Everyone's biggest complaint at the moment is that she destroys the fun of the competition at mid-level tourneys. Everyone's biggest fear for the future is that Bayonetta won't get nerfed and her meta will continue to develop in the way we hate and everyone will just main her to be relevant in the smash 4 scene.

 

[blackghost]

There are also a lot of other high-tier characters that haven't won a major for a long while.

Diddy Kong is a very high-tier character that many consider to be a top 5 or top 10 haracter. But he doesn't win anything that much these days. I don't think that'll convince you that Diddy Kong is not an incredibly good character.

The main argument with Bayo's tourney performance is that players who are mid-level are going toe-to-toe with high/top-level players and are sometimes actually winning (Let's be real, Nairo wouldn't have lost to that Bayo player at Pound if Bayo wasn't around). Obviously, they'll fall off against players who just have a better understanding of Smash 4 as a whole. There hasn't been any top-level player who actually picked up Bayo yet.

Point being, it isn't really that feasible to use major's tourney results yet. My bigger question is why people who say Bayonetta isn't OP can't formulate a good explanation as to why she really isn't. She goes 50/50 with a lot of good characters and just wipes out other characters with the most hilarious ways possible.

Everyone's biggest complaint at the moment is that she destroys the fun of the competition at mid-level tourneys. Everyone's biggest fear for the future is that Bayonetta won't get nerfed and her meta will continue to develop in the way we hate and everyone will just main her to be relevant in the smash 4 scene.

In your own words high tiers that haven't won in a while.
Yes but 1. Those characters have regional and major wins she doesent and two bayonetta isnt even placing TOP EIGHT.
I've been part of a few fgc communities smash 4 is the only base that calls itself competitive but believes that one character that currently isn't winning will destroy a game. Seriously what major potential is left in her? Because her actual results (not your bias opinions) are waning. Fraud bayo players don't win heck good bayo players don't win.
At the latest regional Mario, Fox, ryu, so, mewtwo, mk, and ness all out placed her. And actual bayonetta players don't think she is even with a lot of top tiers because she has no neutral game. And her normals suck. Bayonetta players capitalized in the first 2 months on a lack of knowledge on the character now players that know the matchup aren't losing to her.
What top tiers is she 5050 with? Not shiek, ryu, rosa, maybe zss. Not mk.

 

[Bleezyy]

All this frame data talk ... Bruhh..

 

[Strong-Arm]

Frame data is important lol this is a fighting game, frame data is extremely important

 

[sjb.dario]

In your own words high tiers that haven't won in a while.
Yes but 1. Those characters have regional and major wins she doesent and two bayonetta isnt even placing TOP EIGHT.
I've been part of a few fgc communities smash 4 is the only base that calls itself competitive but believes that one character that currently isn't winning will destroy a game. Seriously what major potential is left in her? Because her actual results (not your bias opinions) are waning. Fraud bayo players don't win heck good bayo players don't win.
At the latest regional Mario, Fox, ryu, so, mewtwo, mk, and ness all out placed her. And actual bayonetta players don't think she is even with a lot of top tiers because she has no neutral game. And her normals suck. Bayonetta players capitalized in the first 2 months on a lack of knowledge on the character now players that know the matchup aren't losing to her.
What top tiers is she 5050 with? Not shiek, ryu, rosa, maybe zss. Not mk.

I admit I haven't checked her results if they are waning. Most people tend to underrate their mains by a lot, so I can't really buy that she's not top tier just by that.

I guess you have a point in that Bayonetta isn't as strong as she was back in the day. I guess it's kinda like how people thought Roy was very good until much later. Kind of.

I have heard from many places that she does go even or doesn't flat out lose in any MUs. But, I personally don't know too much about her MU, so I'll be silent on that for now.

One thing, though. I still can't really use her national performance for her defense. Top 8 is INCREDIBLY good. From what I know, a good amount of bayonettas reached top 64 in nationals, and a good amount of previously unknown players who were irrelevant placed much higher than they normally would.

As I said before, the real fear of players is that what would become of the meta if very good players actually started playing Bayonetta.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

One thing, though. I still can't really use her national performance for her defense. Top 8 is INCREDIBLY good. From what I know, a good amount of bayonettas reached top 64 in nationals, and a good amount of previously unknown players who were irrelevant placed much higher than they normally would.

I'm cherry picking your post hard, but I don't entirely agree with the notion that just because a player suddenly does better with an obviously quite good character, that character is therefore a crutch, OP, etc. Pink Fresh, for instance, was one of the top Lucas players in Brawl (If not the top Lucas? I sort of stopped following Brawl ages ago.) and used Lucas again in 4 until Bayonetta was released. I don't know the personal history of many other Bayonetta players but surely they're not all no-names?

Similarly, Tweek did good with Bowser Jr., surprisingly so considering it was Bowser Jr., then picked up Cloud and skyrocketed. Is Cloud an OP crutch character too?

 

[sjb.dario]

I'm cherry picking your post hard, but I don't entirely agree with the notion that just because a player suddenly does better with an obviously quite good character, that character is therefore a crutch, OP, etc. Pink Fresh, for instance, was one of the top Lucas players in Brawl (If not the top Lucas? I sort of stopped following Brawl ages ago.) and used Lucas again in 4 until Bayonetta was released. I don't know the personal history of many other Bayonetta players but surely they're not all no-names?

Similarly, Tweek did good with Bowser Jr., surprisingly so considering it was Bowser Jr., then picked up Cloud and skyrocketed. Is Cloud an OP crutch character too?

That part of the post is like the only argument part of my post lol. That's not really cherry-picking unless if you just didn't read the entire post of mine.

I usually leave previous iterations of the game out of the current meta talk, so that's why I don't really think Pink Fresh being great at Lucas in Brawl is that important in a Smash 4 talk.
Also, I would admit saying they were "no names" is a stretch. However, every single one of them performed significantly much worse before. And it's not like Cloud where there is only one very known case of someone becoming extremely better than before. MANY people skyrocketed after picking up Bayo.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

That part of the post is like the only argument part of my post lol. That's not really cherry-picking unless if you just didn't read the entire post of mine.

I usually leave previous iterations of the game out of the current meta talk, so that's why I don't really think Pink Fresh being great at Lucas in Brawl is that important in a Smash 4 talk.
Also, I would admit saying they were "no names" is a stretch. However, every single one of them performed significantly much worse before. And it's not like Cloud where there is only one very known case of someone becoming extremely better than before. MANY people skyrocketed after picking up Bayo.

M2K is another player that didn't really show up very much until Cloud. His situation is a bit...different, since he definitely has name recognition and is well known to be a good player, but if we're talking just Smash 4 then yeah, he's another person lifted up by Cloud. IIRC before then he liked...Charizard, I think? Maybe Brawler or someone else that basically depended on customs? Can't really remember.

 

[sjb.dario]

M2K is another player that didn't really show up very much until Cloud. His situation is a bit...different, since he definitely has name recognition and is well known to be a good player, but if we're talking just Smash 4 then yeah, he's another person lifted up by Cloud. IIRC before then he liked...Charizard, I think? Maybe Brawler or someone else that basically depended on customs? Can't really remember.

M2K's placings in Smash 4 were always very good (except Genesis 3 and Paragon). And even if he did improve after picking up Cloud, it's definitely not a skyrocket-improvement. He also took his time to carefully explain why Cloud is not as OP as many thought he was.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

You seem to be missing the point here...Her frame data isn't as bad as you're making it sound. And of the examples I gave, I really don't think they have "very bad" frame data either. I mean we've seen Lucario's and Ike's at the top of state PR boards. I'm trying to figure out exactly what you consider good frame data at this point because it seems like anything that is worse than Bayonetta is strictly horrible. Having you actually back-up your claims of "lackluster" frame data instead of just repeating it over and over would be appreciated. I'm not saying her frame data is great, but it certainly is better than the majority of the cast.


Are you kidding? People wait for others to attack first all the time. That's kind of what the neutral is. Either way, Bayonetta players shouldn't be complaining about hard approaching is as she gets the most off of winning the neutral. If Bayonetta had faster frame data, do you even know how good she would be?


Perhaps run up and upB wasn't the best example (though I've seen players utilize it on various streams and get away with it). Up B however is still a great tool. Whether it's OoS or just out of no where, it's one of the least punishable moves. Hitboxes come out frame 4 and go away 3 frames before the move ends. I can hardly see where you got this comparison from as Mac's dash attack has over 8x the amount of endlag (25 frames) and usually doesn't link into anything else if it connects.


I spoke without checking my sources on Bayonetta's gravity/fall speed, so you're right about that. However, saying Bat Within doesn't help when it comes to being juggled is a lie. That extra frame means a ton. It's the difference between a move connecting and a move whiffing. I'm not claiming that it beats all combos but it certainly beats mis-inputs. I've seen [Falcon's] uair > knee whiff, I've seen [Fox's] falling nair > usmash whiff, I've seen throw combos whiff all because of Bat Within. It's a very useful tool. It would seem as though you don't consider Bat Within a part of the dodge, and rather it's own animation. Would that be safe to assume, or do you consider them the same thing? Because I see them as one in the same. But if you see it another way, it would be nice to know.


Again you're missing the point. I'm not resorting to double standards, I'm utilizing logic. Sheik's weaknesses are stuck with her always. No matter what, killing will always be difficult for Sheik. Her neutral game and frame data are godlike, but when it comes to killing, there is nothing she can do. Bayonetta on the other hand, she can control her weakness. Bayonetta's major weakness is her endlag, yes? If a Bayonetta player opts to not go for wild combos, she won't suffer the endlag. If the Bayonetta goes for a combo and then ends on the ledge, she doesn't suffer the endlag. Bayonetta has tools to help her get around her weakness. No other character has that.

You also fail to recognize that Bayonetta has been out for a fraction of the time the other characters have been out. Her meta isn't nearly as developed as other characters, and yet she has more results than so many characters who have had more time to develop their metas.

So often people say "Oh he's an awesome [insert character here] player!" yet they fail to realize that he isn't an awesome [insert character] player, but rather an awesome player who happens to use said character. None of the good players out there use Bayonetta. THAT is why she doesn't have results.

Recognize it's a two-way street; undeveloped meta = undeveloped counter play

 

[blackghost]

That part of the post is like the only argument part of my post lol. That's not really cherry-picking unless if you just didn't read the entire post of mine.

I usually leave previous iterations of the game out of the current meta talk, so that's why I don't really think Pink Fresh being great at Lucas in Brawl is that important in a Smash 4 talk.
Also, I would admit saying they were "no names" is a stretch. However, every single one of them performed significantly much worse before. And it's not like Cloud where there is only one very known case of someone becoming extremely better than before. MANY people skyrocketed after picking up Bayo.

Can you please list some players that went from no name to threats because of Bayo? I've never heard trela or tweek are only doing well because of Thier character selection but I hear it about pink fresh and others all the time.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

I thought it was pretty much enstamblished that the Bayonetta situation is similar to the pre-nerf Luigi one. The character doesn't seem to do incredibly well at top level but at the same time it quite destroys low to mid-high tournaments. It isn't every healthy to the game still. You can't have a characters that roflstomps this kind of players because they are a vast majority.

Were we asking for a Luigi ban though? Plus, Luigi's down throw to Down B was a true combo and so was down throw to double fair.

The main argument with Bayo's tourney performance is that players who are mid-level are going toe-to-toe with high/top-level players and are sometimes actually winning (Let's be real, Nairo wouldn't have lost to that Bayo player at Pound if Bayo wasn't around). Obviously, they'll fall off against players who just have a better understanding of Smash 4 as a whole. There hasn't been any top-level player who actually picked up Bayo yet.

I heard Nairo lost to a Robin too. Komorikiri used Bayonetta, and he is among top 10 of ZeRo's list.
I don't think people were crying for a Meta Knight ban when Leo beat Mr. R.

Point being, it isn't really that feasible to use major's tourney results yet. My bigger question is why people who say Bayonetta isn't OP can't formulate a good explanation as to why she really isn't. She goes 50/50 with a lot of good characters and just wipes out other characters with the most hilarious ways possible.

Everyone's biggest complaint at the moment is that she destroys the fun of the competition at mid-level tourneys. Everyone's biggest fear for the future is that Bayonetta won't get nerfed and her meta will continue to develop in the way we hate and everyone will just main her to be relevant in the smash 4 scene.

Because she isn't OP, we aren't the ones that have to prove much, the burden of proof falls on people who claims Bayonetta is OP. Bayonetta isn't OP because she is completely beatable and she has notable weaknesses that can be exploited.
So everyone is paranoid, wish more people were like eSam.

As I said before, the real fear of players is that what would become of the meta if very good players actually started playing Bayonetta.

Paranoia, I can replace Bayonetta with Little Mac (back in the good old, "BAN LITTLE MAC!!!" days).
People are basing their points off of a theory that a "very good player" will play Bayonetta and destroy the meta, but trying to ban a character off of the theory is stupid. The theory doesn't even have proof to back it up.

 

[Avokha]

I heard Nairo lost to a Robin too. Komorikiri used Bayonetta, and he is among top 10 of ZeRo's list.
I don't think people were crying for a Meta Knight ban when Leo beat Mr. R.

Can confirm, Nairo lost to Mr. II at Pound. It was a proud day for us Robins

 

[Tizio Random]

Were we asking for a Luigi ban though? Plus, Luigi's down throw to Down B was a true combo and so was down throw to double fair.

If you read my second you would have known I'm all against a ban for Bayo, as I was for Luigi. However, was Luigi a "healthy" character then? No, it wasn't, because it had an OP option that, even if didn't bring him to win majors, still warranted a nerf.
Bayonetta has a zero-to-death that can be started with a frame 4 move. If you remember the trailer of her presentation, she was introduced as a character with amazing combos (which she has) but slow startup. She isn't even true to her trailer. But now that we discovered that you can SDI out of that and don't die, still taking a hell lot of damage but that's fine, everybody seems to have discovered the Holy Grail of coubterplay. That move is frame 4 still and in my opinion should be tweaked to make her true to her character.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

If you read my second you would have known I'm all against a ban for Bayo, as I was for Luigi. However, was Luigi a "healthy" character then? No, it wasn't, because it had an OP option that, even if didn't bring him to win majors, still warranted a nerf.
Bayonetta has a zero-to-death that can be started with a frame 4 move. If you remember the trailer of her presentation, she was introduced as a character with amazing combos (which she has) but slow startup. She isn't even true to her trailer. But now that we discovered that you can SDI out of that and don't die, still taking a hell lot of damage but that's fine, everybody seems to have discovered the Holy Grail of coubterplay. That move is frame 4 still and in my opinion should be tweaked to make her true to her character.

That's her only move that is faster than frame 7, I don't think it is very useful in the neutral because it is horizontally short.
Personally, I think it is fine. Most UpBs are very quick anyways, making it slower might affect her combo game.

 

[blackghost]

If you read my second you would have known I'm all against a ban for Bayo, as I was for Luigi. However, was Luigi a "healthy" character then? No, it wasn't, because it had an OP option that, even if didn't bring him to win majors, still warranted a nerf.
Bayonetta has a zero-to-death that can be started with a frame 4 move. If you remember the trailer of her presentation, she was introduced as a character with amazing combos (which she has) but slow startup. She isn't even true to her trailer. But now that we discovered that you can SDI out of that and don't die, still taking a hell lot of damage but that's fine, everybody seems to have discovered the Holy Grail of coubterplay. That move is frame 4 still and in my opinion should be tweaked to make her true to her character.

Make it true to her character? What does that mean?

 

[Tizio Random]

Make it true to her character? What does that mean?

Did you read my post or did you just saw some words in it and write this post? The character is supposed to have amazing combos with SLOW STARTUP. Grounded upb is frame 4 (slow as f*** yeah) and is a combo starter. Something is missing in the equation, right?
Friendly reminder:

 

[blackghost]

Did you read my post or did you just saw some words in it and write this post? The character is supposed to have amazing combos with SLOW STARTUP. Grounded upb is frame 4 (slow as f*** yeah) and is a combo starter. Something is missing in the equation, right?
Friendly reminder:

Having one move that's fast doesn't invalidate how bad the rest of her normals are. Another comparison: ganon is a laggy character however up smash has no lag. But that doesn't change how unsafe ganon is as a character. Bayonetta's fastest move has no value in neutrual. mario, ryu, and others all have fast up bs and better normals. Bayo is very unsafe and the main issue is most players don't punish her and then they act like she's safe as shiek or ryu on shield.

 

[Big-Cat]

Having one move that's fast doesn't invalidate how bad the rest of her normals are. Another comparison: ganon is a laggy character however up smash has no lag. But that doesn't change how unsafe ganon is as a character. Bayonetta's fastest move has no value in neutrual. mario, ryu, and others all have fast up bs and better normals. Bayo is very unsafe and the main issue is most players don't punish her and then they act like she's safe as shiek or ryu on shield.

Actually, I'd say the issue is that a lot of players REFUSE to play defensively against her, as if that only proves she's OP.

Then there's the combos, but as the DI options are getting better understood, this might become irrelevant bar the stupid hitboxes.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

Big-Cat well I think that's why people are so upset with her. She's really the only character that can "control" the pace of a match in intermediate level play. A lot of people play aggressively by default and get a lot of milage off of it, but when doing that against Bayo, you could very well take an obscene percent as opposed to a much less intense punish.

blackghost Im not a huge fan of this upB comparison because on whiff Bayo is the only character who can really act afterwards (of the characters you mentioned). It's undeniably one of the best upB moves in the game for that reason alone (not to mention you can use it twice). Similarly, her normals are obviously worse, but her punish game is better than just about any other character. If her normals were on the same level as Mario or Ryu can you even imagine how powerful she would be?

 

[Big-Cat]

It's their problem for refusing to adapt, not mine. I've actually come to learn of when to switch between what I call offensive and defensive stances in neutral. Against Bayonetta, you want to be mostly in defensive. Her neutral is so poor that she can't do a lot towards you outside of combo starters, but those are obvious when they come in. Compare this to fighting someone like Megaman where that's really about enduring until you can get in. The strategies differ by the matchup.

In all honesty, I'm speculating her tier placing will DROP by the end of the year, with or without patches.

 

[Ghidorah14]

This is one of those times when having a background or even just moderate experience with other fighting games really comes into play.

So many smash players just cant wrap their heads around not constantly pressing buttons, but to others it's a no-brainer.

 

[blackghost]

Actually, I'd say the issue is that a lot of players REFUSE to play defensively against her, as if that only proves she's OP.

Then there's the combos, but as the DI options are getting better understood, this might become irrelevant bar the stupid hitboxes.

If you play defensively against her she has no good options. People act like she's

It's their problem for refusing to adapt, not mine. I've actually come to learn of when to switch between what I call offensive and defensive stances in neutral. Against Bayonetta, you want to be mostly in defensive. Her neutral is so poor that she can't do a lot towards you outside of combo starters, but those are obvious when they come in. Compare this to fighting someone like Megaman where that's really about enduring until you can get in. The strategies differ by the matchup.

In all honesty, I'm speculating her tier placing will DROP by the end of the year, with or without patches.

i think it already is. her placings remind me of pikachu. Everyone keep saying she is good but the placings dont scream elite or "by far the best in the game" they scream good character that good players can deal with. tier decisions aren't ade by what happens in mid level tournament play. they are detwrmined by results at high level and she doesn't have ANY.

@Rawkstar but your in a hypothetical now. her normals aren't even close to ryu or shiek and her punish game while good is hard to do on an opponent that knows her. no other character outs themselves in as much danger as she does during her stairwell combo. and no other high high tier has to work that hard to get a hit. and its common knowledge that WT is awful to just do in neutral and is a free punish. yes she can do another action in the air but when she lands she has north of 25 frames of lag.

 

[Big-Cat]

The more I think about it, Bayo needs to work VERY hard should her combos not kill, and I think they are NOT meant to kill at the high level. This leaves her with a very predictable offense and defense. Her defense turns to witch time, but wait, she is super free to grabs as a result. Her rolls and air dodge get her damaged even if she's successful. For offense, she has to rely on kill moves like FThrow and BAir, but not Wicked Weaves. For the brief period I played her, it got harder and harder to fight with her as the opponent's damage went up.

 

[Mr. Johan]

And then she knocks you offstage, catching your recovery with UpB or another aerial if you go up and ABKing to safety if she misses, shoots you with an always cancelable Bullet Climax if you recover stage level, and edgeguards you with a programmed long-lasting Nair if you're coming in low, making her kill issues completely irrelevant.

 

[Big-Cat]

And then she knocks you offstage, catching your recovery with UpB or another aerial if you go up and ABKing to safety if she misses, shoots you with an always cancelable Bullet Climax if you recover stage level, and edgeguards you with a programmed long-lasting Nair if you're coming in low, making her kill issues completely irrelevant.

Are you telling me she has other kill methods besides combos? What a shocker. Still doesn't take away that her offense can be very predictable.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

https://www.nintendo.co.jp/wiiu/axfj/update/index.html
1.1.6 confirmed. Hopefully Bayonetta doesn't get nerfed like Sheik or Diddy.

 

[Respect38]

Hopefully Bayonetta doesn't get nerfed like Sheik or Diddy.

As in going from top tier to high tier? Yeah, I'm sure that Bayonetta mains would be devastated...

 

[SoccerStar9001]

As in going from top tier to high tier? Yeah, I'm sure that Bayonetta mains would be devastated...

The thing is, we don't know if Bayonetta is really actually top tier instead of a high tier yet. Remember people calling Roy a high tier? Even ZeRo said that.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

As in going from top tier to high tier? Yeah, I'm sure that Bayonetta mains would be devastated...

Bayo isn't very good all-around like diddy or sheik. She's built more like luigi. Nerfing key aspects of her gameplay without compensation will make her underwhelming

 

[Funbot28]

I really hope they don't nerf her too bad and change up her playstyle too much. All I would really want to see change is a bit more ending lag on Witch Twist, ABK and maybe reduced KB on UAir. Witch Time was nerfed enough imo (if they nerf it even more it would become completely worthless as a move).

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Nerfing startup on grounded Witch Twist and doing something about divekick, IDK what, are the two main things IMO. After that I think she'd be in a good place.

 

[Shirma Akayaku]

Nerfing startup on grounded Witch Twist and doing something about divekick, IDK what, are the two main things IMO. After that I think she'd be in a good place.

I like Bayonetta, but I always thought that her downward ABK is her main issue. It pops up the opponent too high, which leads to early KO's with double Witch Twist. It's also really safe on shield since she also bounces really high.

By the way, apparently a 1.1.6 patch is coming soon, maybe people won't complain about Bayonetta that much if she gets nerfed. I've also been telling people not to ban Bayo so early because a new patch is guaranteed to happen since in-game data suggests so (but they won't listen anyway).

 

[Purpledebo]

i want sakurai to break Bayonetta's legs

no more cancer

 

[Ulk]

I think changing the knockback angle of her DABK and reducing the hitbox size of her Forward Air can already do wonders. Her F-Air is a simple and safe move to connect to continue her lethal combos, or even start them. Making it harder to land and a lot easier to avoid in the air could change a lot.

 

[Shirma Akayaku]

Can confirm, Nairo lost to Mr. II at Pound. It was a proud day for us Robins

Yo, where can I watch that set? May I have a link please?