Balancing Brawl+

[MK26]

lol i was considering writing up a layman's changelist, but stopped when i thought nobody would want to read it <_<

 

[Dark Sonic]

I don't really agree with the SHFF laser, characters like kirby weren't something he had a problem with anyway.

Isn't kirby one of Falco's worst matchups?

wtf man SHFF laser totally helps. But MORE IMPORTANTLY, the removal of SH DOUBLE laser helps LARGER characters deal with him. The removal of shdl was a nerf because it was the bane of the fat guys that no amount of buffing could really solve (without ludicrously affecting their other matchups).


Yeah <_<

 

[GameSystem]

There is no real reason to have Linkshot's quote in the OP. He is an avid Balanced brawl supporter and wouldn't play B+ anyway. Him not looking for venues to host b+ doesn't mean anything because he wouldn't have supported it regardless.

 

[proteininja]

+1 change list for dummies

 

[Shadic]

I don't really agree with the SHFF laser, characters like kirby weren't something he had a problem with anyway.

The laser was an excellent change. It made it so he can both hit say, Kirby. And it made it so he couldn't completely lock-down characters such as Bowser, Ganondorf, etc.

 

[Alphatron]

Alright then. Refer to the Bowser crawl heavy armor for a change that helps with matchups. Helps him get through projectile spam and quick weak hits. Falco does have trouble with kirby btw.

Also, I completely agree with GameSystem, but only because I'm certain Linkshot does not keep up with B+ or could care less. We need more players of both...

 

[Daakun]

I second the complaints on Ness and Yoshi's djc.
Either give it to everyone, no one, or at least every character with a nonstandard second jump.

 

[Naucitos]

There is no real reason to have Linkshot's quote in the OP. He is an avid Balanced brawl supporter and wouldn't play B+ anyway. Him not looking for venues to host b+ doesn't mean anything because he wouldn't have supported it regardless.

I don't see how him being a balanced brawl supporter is in any way relevant, all the flak that people get for playing different hacks is absurd, however, the only line that was his was that one line, i'm the one whos finding venues to host tournaments.

Also, i'm not against SHFFL, i'm just saying it wasn't targeting short characters

 

[GameSystem]

I'm not bashing him for playing BBrawl. I'm just saying that since he supports that, he doesn't care about balancing b+ and doesn't care what happens to it. His input is worthless here. It's like a woman's rights activist giving advice to someone who wants to turn all women into sex slaves.

 

[Naucitos]

How is that at all similar? You say that like its impossible to support both bbrawl and brawl+, is this whole thread invalid because i play bbrawl? A better example would probably be a woman's rights activist fighting against racism

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

I'm not bashing him for playing BBrawl. I'm just saying that since he supports that, he doesn't care about balancing b+ and doesn't care what happens to it. His input is worthless here. It's like a woman's rights activist giving advice to someone who wants to turn all women into sex slaves.

Yes, but if they make a valid point it has nothing to do with the point they're making.

 

[GameSystem]

His point isn't valid anyway because it's an opinion. He thinks brawl+ was made to be more fun and he doesn't feel that it succeeded. 100% opinion on both parts.

 

[Naucitos]

No, i'm pretty sure its been said that the origin of this prject was to make it more fun, and he was saying that he doubted this thread would succeed because of that. The point of that was me wondering whether or not it was intended to be balanced, which is why i brought it up and asked

 

[Alphatron]

His point wasn't valid because it was incorrect. To state that brawl+ doesn't care for balance after all the nerfs and buffs, and the exclusion of physics changes that many believe would make the game more fun, all for the preservation of balance, is pretty ridiculous.

And tbh, that may not be the worst analogy I've ever seen.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Since when did "stating the origin of Brawl+" morph into "Brawl+ currently cares only about fun and not balance"?

I do not find Linkshot's quote objectionable at all.

 

[GameSystem]

My bad, I thought Linkshot's quote and Naucitos's final sentence were both from Linkshot. Ignore everything I said.

 

[jalued]

Why is this thread even here?? Isnt this stuff for the general 5.0 discussion thread? And tbh Naucitos, you dont seem to like any of the changes... how can you not like SHFF laser? Plus brawl+ is only going to be balanced through trial and error, not just by having a thread that moans about everything (yes i am saying ur moaning).

You cannot compare balance of bbrawl and brawl+ as brawl+ is a MUCH harder job to balance due to new physics etc. For example, DDD used to be the worst character by miles once they added new physics to the game, and look at him now. They used their heads and worked out a way to make him work in a combo based enviroment. So how are new character changes not balancing brawl+ again?

someone please close this thread

 

[GameSystem]

Don't compare difficulty in balancing. That's asking to start a flame war. They are both equally hard to balance because BBrawl has to make it so that general gameplay isn't changed so much that normal vbrawl people will have try too much to adapt.

 

[Alphatron]

The bbrawl peeps spent 1000+ hours getting data for their project. Seems like a hell of a lot of work.


In any case, what we need is more accurate matchup data.

 

[Shadic]

I second the complaints on Ness and Yoshi's djc.
Either give it to everyone, no one, or at least every character with a nonstandard second jump.

What sense does that make? They both had it in Smash64 and Melee. That's like arguing that everybody should have a tether grab because Link/Young Link/Samus/Yoshi(?) had it in Melee.

 

[jalued]

The bbrawl peeps spent 1000+ hours getting data for their project. Seems like a hell of a lot of work.


In any case, what we need is more accurate matchup data.

So lets all ignore this thread and go to the Brawl+ Matchup Chart instead: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=250028

This thread is like 4 months early people!!! close it down!

 

[CloneHat]

Oh look, someone's who doesn't even contribute is whining about how Brawl+ has no competitive changes, puts up a quote of a BBrawl player as proof, and now it's a BBrawl vs. B+ fight.

Shut the **** up.

Brawl+ was not made to be more fun, it was made to be more competitive, more like older SSB games, and deeper. Fun is a side affect, and is totally opinionated anyway.

Lock the thread please.

 

[Naucitos]

If you mean that brawl+ is harder because it hasn't been around as long, that makes perfect sense.
"Trial and error" doesen't belong in official builds of a competitive game. "Oops, it looks like this tournament is going to be steamrolled by ness because we accidentally made him too good so i'm losing my money" doesen't really cut it.

Also, i've already said i'm not against against SHFFL

Oh look, someone's who doesn't even contribute is whining about how Brawl+ has no competitive changes, puts up a quote of a BBrawl player as proof, and now it's a BBrawl vs. B+ fight.

Shut the **** up.

Brawl+ was not made to be more fun, it was made to be more competitive, more like older SSB games, and deeper. Fun is a side affect, and is totally opinionated anyway.

Lock the thread please.

Oh look, like i predicted, someone *****ing at me because of balanced brawl, i pointed out a good design choice and get flamed for it, also, somehow i knew that only using the IRC would get me flamed on here, i rarely post on the boards, that doesen't mean i don't contribute or that i don't know whats going on.

Also, its been said multiple times that brawl+ is not aiming to recreate the older games. In related news, if link didn't have a tether grab in brawl, and we gave him one in brawl+, then yes it would be similar to DJC, however, its not becausenobody was given a tether grab

 

[Alphatron]

Good thing the RC1 build isn't running on trial and error then.

 

[jalued]

If you mean that brawl+ is harder because it hasn't been around as long, that makes perfect sense.
"Trial and error" doesen't belong in official builds of a competitive game. "Oops, it looks like this tournament is going to be steamrolled by ness because we accidentally made him too good so i'm losing my money" doesen't really cut it.

Also, i've already said i'm not against against SHFFL

I said trial and error, not a stab in the dark. Bbrawl had the massive advantage of there being a known tierlist and matchup date. Give brawl+ a chance before u start laying into it with your moaning and whining. God i feel like this is a toddler rant!

Sorry but this thread is a waste of time, lock it please someone

 

[CloneHat]

"Oops, it looks like this tournament is going to be steamrolled by ness because we accidentally made him too good so i'm losing my money" doesen't really cut it.

*sigh* Ness didn't win the tourney, people had this discussion right after he dominated the crew battles. He's not that great.

 

[Naucitos]

I'm sorry clone, i apparently shouldn't have said ness and should have just said (insert character here), i wasn't trying to use him as an example, he was just the first character to come to mind

I said trial and error, not a stab in the dark. Bbrawl had the massive advantage of there being a known tierlist and matchup date. Give brawl+ a chance before u start laying into it with your moaning and whining. God i feel like this is a toddler rant!

Sorry but this thread is a waste of time, lock it please someone

You're the ONLY ONE here arguing about bbrawl, i play brawl+ almost exclusively and am very active in it.

 

[jalued]

I'm sorry clone, i apparently shouldn't have said ness and should have just said (insert character here), i wasn't trying to use him as an example, he was just the first character to come to mind




You're the ONLY ONE here arguing about bbrawl, i play brawl+ almost exclusively and am very active in it.

but its too early for this thread dude. You need to give it some time, find out how balanced the game actually is before you start criticising it (not to mention new physics changes in next few months). So just relax and play the game and give us matchups rather than saying its theoretically unbalanced

 

[GameSystem]

I read the OP again. I think you should take everything before the edit and make it a blog post or something, and then destroy the edit. I'm thinking that edit is what caused all the arguing.

 

[Naucitos]

I'm not criticising the balance at all, i'm saying i don't like how the changes themselves were gone about. Also, did you not read the thread at all? Half the point of the main post was urging people to participate in their matchup threads so we can help out with balancing it

 

[jalued]

I'm not criticising the balance at all, i'm saying i don't like how the changes themselves were gone about. Also, did you not read the thread at all? Half the point of the main post was urging people to participate in their matchup threads so we can help out with balancing it

yeah but this thread only stops people from focusing on the matchup thread.

 

[GHNeko]

Half the point of the main post was urging people to participate in their matchup threads so we can help out with balancing it

...

http://allisbrawl.com/forum/forum.aspx?fid=345

oh hey why dont you look at that.

 

[Thunderhorse+]

I don't really agree with the SHFF laser, characters like kirby weren't something he had a problem with anyway.

Yes. Yes he ****ing did. And Squirtle. And ICs (though those help a bit less against him).

and I should crucify you for not only bringing up Balanced Brawl, but bringing up that **** dirty ape Linkshot

(for mods, Linkshot, Naucitos, and I are cool, so don't take my insults seriously).

Also yes please for layman's change list

 

[Naucitos]

Yes i know but thats kindof completely unrelated? Also, i am very much not a big fan of allisbrawl, (And isn't advertising a booboo? XD)

 

[GameSystem]

Neko, I gave you an internet on AIB.

 

[Naucitos]

Try to keep this relatively on topic please neko/gamesystem

 

[GHNeko]

Yes i know but thats kindof completely unrelated? Also, i am very much not a big fan of allisbrawl, (And isn't advertising a booboo? XD)

who cares if its AiB. They're character boards. Man up and use your resources.

Try to keep this relatively on topic please neko/gamesystem

I did. You mentioned how half of OP was trying to get people to talk about matchups to balance the game and I gave you a link to a place where not only match up discussion is allowed, but encouraged to the utmost degree.

 

[RyuReiatsu]

Try to keep this relatively on topic please neko/gamesystem

There's nothing to discuss about.
You're disagreeing while the whole world understands the reasoning behind the changes. What else is there to say? Play people, test it out. RC1 ain't a "trial" build. It's an official build that seems to have progressed a lot, balancing-wise.

And the changelist for dummies would be great.
I understand part of it, but I seriously can't picture KBG and BKB properly >_>.

EDIT: Ninja'd by Neko.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

For people calling it a "layman's changelist", it's certainly not. What it is is a simple explanation of what the change is for and what it does.

The purpose/intent of the buff should take precedence over what the buff actually does. If you can find a purpose for a buff, then it's MUCH easier to sell it to us. And if the purpose is not fulfilled by whatever the buff does, we can try something else with the same purpose in mind. If you just flat out say "We're giving XXX this", however cool it may be, there will always be doubt as to whether or not that change is needed.

 

[V-K]

The only thing I would complain about is Olimar.

I mean come on, he got like no real Balance Changes. I would really like to see him being a viable Character that can´t just win by hitting the C Stick.