Balancing Brawl+

[Naucitos]

Hey, alot of people seem to have disagreements with the way changes are made in brawl+ recently. Alot of them seem to be fairly frivilous changes, even in the latest build, which is intended to be the official build for at least a few months. Certain changes to falcon and link come to mind in particular. Another thing i've seen alot of is 'this change would be cool so lets put it in'. Yoshi's and ness' DJC being incredible examples of that.

We as a community for the game need to help out more as well, and not the way we have so far, i'll admit i'm much more active on the IRC than i am on the forum, but from both most of what i've seen so far is people whining and repeating a few ideas, but most of them seem to be based on 'our charcter needs to be better give it this so it will be better'.

The best way for us to help out with balancing would be to determine where characters stand and where they need more help. We have however many months its going to be until they decide to update past this RC1 we have, we need to use this to refine our characters, figure out who needs help how and in what matchups, that way we can buff characters weaknesses as needed. In exchange, hopefully we'll be able to get detailed reasoning behind the changes so the people who weren't involved can know why changes were made just by reading the changelist.

So that i'm not just talking and not helping, I'll be writing up a guide for yoshi to try to help out with this, and try to help out in whatever character matchups i'm pointed at(Preferably through IRC)

EDIT: An important question that i need a straight answer to, preferably from shanus: Does the WBR care about the balance of brawl+, or does it care more about how fun the game is? After posting this, linkshot responded with the main worry i have about this thread

[04:45] <Linkshot> Hm, good job. But I think Brawl+'s roots were originally to simply make the game more fun. So I can't really say I see much success.

I'm perfectly OK with whatever if its intended to be for fun, but i wont be wasting my time looking for more venues to hold tournaments for it in.

 

[Shadic]

Link? I haven't heard any real complains about Link changes. We want different bombs eventually, but that's more of a technical limitation as of now.

 

[Naucitos]

It just comes to mind as a frivolous change, "Aerial up b kill power" Why? What does this help with, not his recovery, his combos? Was there someone with a crazy good matchup against him who happened to have the weakness of spinning swords under him when hes in the air?

 

[GHNeko]

errr...Yoshi's and Ness' DJC weren't put in because they're cool. They were added primarily to give both characters more depth and options.

People need to stop talking about balancing and character changes and play the game and see if certain things are TRUELY OP'd or not.

 

[Shadic]

It just comes to mind as a frivolous change, "Aerial up b kill power" Why? What does this help with, not his recovery, his combos? Was there someone with a crazy good matchup against him who happened to have the weakness of spinning swords under him when hes in the air?

Actually, it gives him another kill move. He has the ability to combo off of it, and it works well for punishing sloppy ledge-guards, something that it couldn't do before.

Also, they made the hits connect better, because you could be punished for landing it. If you wanna complain about his now non-worthless UpB, bring it to the Link thread.

 

[Naucitos]

I never said anything about them being OP, i said they weren't neccesary
How can any of links combos involve aerial up b? He can't combo it out of any of his attacks that i know of, and he can't combo after the last hit. He has lots of kill moves, punishing sloppy edgeguards isn't really relevant, it doesen't make links recovery better, it just makes it less appealing to try to stop if you aren't good/you're playing on wifi/aren't good offstage

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

more examples of stuff that was changed for no reason or changed poorly: falcons bair, lucarios dair, ness's yoyos, samus' jab; and other things that were just changed to be changed.

on samus' jab, when i asked about why it was made so that your jabs literally sucked people in, and you could combo into a charge shot, and even combo into MORE jabs, ryoko said that it's not that big of a deal... but wtf? so we can just randomly change stuff around and as long as it's not a "game breaking" change, then it's ok? i mean i'm all for change, but if you guys want to do this stuff professionally, i think a rationalization behind your changes is in order; especially on the change list.

Actually, it gives him another kill move. He has the ability to combo off of it, and it works well for punishing sloppy ledge-guards, something that it couldn't do before.

Also, they made the hits connect better, because you could be punished for landing it. If you wanna complain about his now non-worthless UpB, bring it to the Link thread.

that's not his point. his point is why did he need it in the first place? just because a move isn't godly doesn't mean it needs to be changed.



heres what you guys can do to make it easier for the brawl+ players. instead of just giving us this:

Jab 3 (Gentleman): [IASA: ??->25]
-Hitbox A: [1x Size; 6 Dmg; 50->110 KBG; 10->25 BKB; 70°->60°]
-Hitbox B: [1x Size; 5 Dmg; 70->130 KBG; 0->15 BKB; (40)°->50°]
D-Tilt: [IASA: 37->31]
-Hitbox A: [1x Size; 10 Dmg; 75->85 KBG; 25->30 BKB; 80°]
-Hitbox B: [1x Size; 10 Dmg; 75->85 KBG; 25->30 BKB; 40°->70°]
-Hitbox C: [1x Size; 10 Dmg; 75->85 KBG; 25->30 BKB; 20°->60°]
N-Air: [Hit: 7-8 -> 7-12 (1st Kick); 20-21 -> 19-30 (2nd Kick); IASA: 45->43] - (Replaces frame speed changes)
-1st Kick; A: [1x Size; 4->3 Dmg; 100 KBG; 0 BKB; 82°]
-1st Kick; B: [1x Size; 4->3 Dmg; 100 KBG; 0 BKB; 78°]
-1st Kick; C: [1x Size; 4->3 Dmg; 100 KBG; 0 BKB; 74°]
-2nd Kick: [1x Size; 6->9 Dmg; 125->85 KBG; 45->42 BKB; (40)°->50°]


you can say:

-Falcon's third jab now sends farther. this was done to help his defensive game.
-Falcon's Dtilt now pops up enemies more to help accomodate his setup game.
-Falcon's nair now lasts longer and does 1 more damage to make it a more effective sex kick.

(these are just quick interpretations, i'm not sure what the intentions are behind these buffs)


THEN we, the players, can easily go in and say "well, i don't think falcon's defensive game needs adjusting".

 

[Team Giza]

Naucitos, are you suggesting that the priority or range on it be increased instead?

Jab 3 (Gentleman): [IASA: ??->25]
-Hitbox A: [1x Size; 6 Dmg; 50->110 KBG; 10->25 BKB; 70°->60°]
-Hitbox B: [1x Size; 5 Dmg; 70->130 KBG; 0->15 BKB; (40)°->50°]
D-Tilt: [IASA: 37->31]
-Hitbox A: [1x Size; 10 Dmg; 75->85 KBG; 25->30 BKB; 80°]
-Hitbox B: [1x Size; 10 Dmg; 75->85 KBG; 25->30 BKB; 40°->70°]
-Hitbox C: [1x Size; 10 Dmg; 75->85 KBG; 25->30 BKB; 20°->60°]
N-Air: [Hit: 7-8 -> 7-12 (1st Kick); 20-21 -> 19-30 (2nd Kick); IASA: 45->43] - (Replaces frame speed changes)
-1st Kick; A: [1x Size; 4->3 Dmg; 100 KBG; 0 BKB; 82°]
-1st Kick; B: [1x Size; 4->3 Dmg; 100 KBG; 0 BKB; 78°]
-1st Kick; C: [1x Size; 4->3 Dmg; 100 KBG; 0 BKB; 74°]
-2nd Kick: [1x Size; 6->9 Dmg; 125->85 KBG; 45->42 BKB; (40)°->50°]


you can say:

-Falcon's third jab now sends farther. this was done to help his defensive game.
-Falcon's Dtilt now pops up enemies more to help accomodate his setup game.
-Falcon's nair now lasts longer and does 1 more damage to make it a more effective sex kick.

Agreed, since most people can't read that data and figure stuff out from it.

 

[Naucitos]

If a buff is neccesary to his recovery, yes, buffing its range or priority would be better because it would make less moves able to get through it, it could also be sped up or lengthened

 

[cookieM0Nster]

errr...Yoshi's and Ness' DJC weren't put in because they're cool. They were added primarily to give both characters more depth and options.

Agreed. As a Yoshi main, I am glad that we havve depth and less predictability. DJC is a very helpful technique (see Fumi in Melee ) and gives Yoshi options. It also helps KILL heavies. DJC'd Up-air is an excellent juggler.

 

[Naucitos]

I agree its a very helpful technique, i'm glad we have it, but there was no legitimate reasoning behind us getting it, which is my point. I'm glad that i'm arguing against one of our most significant buffs in a long time, so people aren't arguing that i'm biased

 

[cookieM0Nster]

I agree its a very helpful technique, i'm glad we have it, but there was no legitimate reasoning behind us getting it, which is my point. I'm glad that i'm arguing against one of our most significant buffs in a long time, so people aren't arguing that i'm biased

Except the fact that Yoshi was too predictable, and was in the lower half of the Brawling field.
And he had very little options.

 

[shanus]

I never said anything about them being OP, i said they weren't neccesary
How can any of links combos involve aerial up b? He can't combo it out of any of his attacks that i know of, and he can't combo after the last hit. He has lots of kill moves, punishing sloppy edgeguards isn't really relevant, it doesen't make links recovery better, it just makes it less appealing to try to stop if you aren't good/you're playing on wifi/aren't good offstage

Wrong, downthrow.





Naucitos, whats funny about this post is every change you mentioned was actively discussed by the community.

Ness DJC, Yoshi DJC, Links upB, and more, all had many posts in the nightly builds topic.


I especially recommend you use the search feature and read lord karn's post about why DJC would be very important to Yoshi in + as an example (cough, its called shield pressure). If you didn't notice (hell you can even watch videos of your playing youtube), yoshi was so hit and run and egg campy as his lack of pressure was holding him back. I'm too lazy to type out more when there was a few huge posts about it that you carefully and selectively forgot. These frivolous changes you mention serve a purpose, and it seems that you might not understand why they are in, but that is your duty to first find out before calling out our credibility as they all had a lot of discussion towards their roots. So here is my point, because this is fairly frustrating. You come to me and ask if you (and the rest of the public) can see the conversations that go on in the WBR, criticize our choice of buffs because you think the public doesn't support them, but don't even take the time to read feedback yourself? Thanks!


No offense, but here is the obvious: Uninformed post is uninformed. Lock please.

 

[Alphatron]

I agree with the changelist showing us what these things mean actually and why they were implemented. Not everyone reads the nightly thread.

Anyway, Ness DJC came with the removal of the useless buffs Ness got, like the tripping sped up yoyos(tho now they have t. priority) so I don't completely see where you're coming from.

And yes, balance changes are important to the WBR. Even more so than the physics changes.

 

[shanus]

Yeah, it is fairly insulting to assume that balance changes are NOT important to the WBR.

Some people just really need to think before they post.

 

[twiblets]

Another thing i've seen alot of is 'this change would be cool so lets put it in'. Yoshi's and ness' DJC being incredible examples of that.

sorry but completely disagree. djc was an important part of both characters playstyle in melee and 64. Its not op and it adds depth and options.

 

[Mattnumbers]

TP was added to Ness's Yoyo's so that they actually worked properly, Usmash helps him defend against aerial approaches and Dsmash helps him edgeguard with it.

 

[goodoldganon]

ITT: Shanus is pissed

Being serious, no change goes through without lots of testing and discussing to make sure each change serves a specific purpose. Very few changes have ever been added because they are cool and the ones that are added for being cool are cosmetic changes (Wario's grab pummel is coins, darkness F-air for Ganon, etc)

 

[Mattnumbers]

Not to mention that the cosmetic changes are good because they help us draw in new players.

 

[Alphatron]

The only change that isn't cosmetic that leans towards that category is probably Dedede's quake hammer.

 

[ThatGuy]

The only change that isn't cosmetic that leans towards that category is probably Dedede's quake hammer.

Which is awesome.

 

[IC3R]

<3 Quake Hammer

So...why does Samus' jab suck you in again?

 

[shanus]

<3 Quake Hammer

So...why does Samus' jab suck you in again?

To be honest, we aren't really sure how that change got in. No-one has even manned up to mention who put it in, so we are looking to remove it during our patch to fix the zamus/samus pac loading bug.

 

[Shadic]

I never said anything about them being OP, i said they weren't neccesary
How can any of links combos involve aerial up b? He can't combo it out of any of his attacks that i know of, and he can't combo after the last hit. He has lots of kill moves, punishing sloppy edgeguards isn't really relevant, it doesen't make links recovery better, it just makes it less appealing to try to stop if you aren't good/you're playing on wifi/aren't good offstage

Because he was a bad character and got buffs? And you can combo into it without too much issue. That's like asking why any buffs exist that don't immediately increase the depth of the character. The answer would be that they were bad before and needed buffs.

 

[Naucitos]

Yeah, it is fairly insulting to assume that balance changes are NOT important to the WBR.

Some people just really need to think before they post.

I say this because i have brought it up with individual members of the WBR, and gotten responses along the lines of "Theres too many characters, it'd be way too hard to balance them all properly". It was merely a question, because both possibilities are acceptable, but i'd like to know which is which. On the other hand, i'm fairly upset that you're calling to lock this immediately just because you're assuming i don't know what i'm talking about.

I already know why djc is useful to yoshi (Although shields were already completely trivial to him). However, i can't for the life of me see why this helps yoshi or ness more than anyone else. The only reason i've been able to get that no one else has DJC is that they didn't have it in 64 or melee. In fact, yoshi's strange double jump that made him djc in those games seems to be the cause of that floating glitch.

I can't believe i forgot quake hammer, i spend so much time trying to stop people from raging about it, because its not OP at all, but it is a prime example of the random design i'm talking about. I'd understand it in a nightly, which is why i haven't brought up ganon's utilt, but this is supposed to be the official build we're running tournaments off of for some time to come. I fail to see what weaknesses Dedede had that the quake hammer was supposed to cover.

I'll admit, it's a bit of a pet peeve of mine that so many recoveries are becoming deadly to slip up against now, and i didn't know as much about link's up b as i could have. It's my fault here for mentioning it in a thread, but it would be foolish to think that most random players would know why these changes are being made, or even that alot of them work the way they do. Especially for an official release, one shouldn't have to go trolling through the forums to understand all the changes and why they were made, you should be able to read the changelog and understand it.

 

[Shadic]

I'll admit, it's a bit of a pet peeve of mine that so many recoveries are becoming deadly to slip up against now, and i didn't know as much about link's up b as i could have. It's my fault here for mentioning it in a thread, but it would be foolish to think that most random players would know why these changes are being made, or even that alot of them work the way they do. Especially for an official release, one shouldn't have to go trolling through the forums to understand all the changes and why they were made, you should be able to read the changelog and understand it.

Well, kudos for admitting it. As for the lack of explanation, I kinda agree, but it would work better as a thread asking for:
1) A comprehensive changelist for 5.0 now. (Current one of B+.net isn't 5.0 updated)
2) Explanations for those details.

 

[Dan_X]

Yeah, lock this thread. FAIL.

I'm quite content with this build! Each change was made for a specific reason or purpose, nothing was done on a whim.

*sigh*

 

[Shadic]

I'm quite content with this build! Each change was made for a specific reason or purpose, nothing was done on a whim.

Actually, if you bothered to read the thread, you would realize that it isn't necessarily the case. Things slip through.

To be honest, we aren't really sure how that change got in. No-one has even manned up to mention who put it in.

 

[Alphatron]

A newb friendly change list would be better for most people. I'm pretty sure the question about the offensive flag change on falcon kick went unanswered. Plus, its tedious to have to explain most of the changes to my friends, since they don't understand the changelist at all.

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

Honestly Quake Hammer feels like a ******** change, yet it really isn't as useful as I thought it would be, so I feel very, very conflicted about it. @_@

Maybe it's just that Sakurai is laughing in his tub-o-money while DDD serves his tripping legacy and I'm scared as hell to touch the ground . And yet I play Diddy. @_@

 

[kupo15]

I thought that the quake pulling in to maybe set up for a Utilt depending on DI would be a better change than a trip. And yes, a layman's term change list would be much better.

 

[Alphatron]

Can't you shield the quake hitbox anyway? The lvl 9 cpu was doing that to me two days ago...which freaked me out as they aren't supposed to be reacting to that hitbox.

 

[Mattnumbers]

I agree that DDDs quake hammer was kind of arbitrary, but is that really such a bad thing if it produces such a unique move?

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

i love you ryoko give me your babies

 

[Alphatron]

^Where did that come from?

 

[Naucitos]

A newb friendly change list would be better for most people. I'm pretty sure the question about the offensive flag change on falcon kick went unanswered. Plus, its tedious to have to explain most of the changes to my friends, since they don't understand the changelist at all.

I agree, a comprehensive change list is one of the main things i'm asking for in this thread. But the main problem i have is how changes are come up with. I understand the concept of "Bad character + Buff = better character". However, i feel that in order to balance the game best changes need to be specifically placed to handle certain matchups. I'm probably going to get crucified for bringing up balanced brawl in here, but an example would be them changing the angle on ikes downsmash. Ike had an awful matchup against olimar, and was a fairly bad character to begin with. The downsmash change was very useful against olimar in particular because of his bad recovery, but it helped less against other characters.

This hasn't really been possible up til now, which is why i said we need to focus on the matchup discussion so that accurate changes can be made.

 

[Alphatron]

An example of buffs that help specifically with matchups in brawl+ would be Falco' SHFF laser at the expense of SHDL. Helps Falco against short characters(kirby) but nerfs his really good matchups against characters who got shut down by SHDL.

Unlike bbrawl, physics changes already alter matchups. In order to accurately see how matchups have changed, data is needed. Thus, the long period of time b4 the next build or nightly.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Well, just to put my two cents in, I don't think that a lot of the changes were unnecessary at all. For example, I play wario on the side, and I think that the damage nerfs + forward smash ner***e were extremely called for. Before, his forward smash served as a kill move, a punisher, and a gtfo move. @_@

and yet, I can still play wario as normal. :D


~ mah 2 cents



edit: lol censor >.>

 

[Naucitos]

An example of buffs that help specifically with matchups in brawl+ would be Falco' SHFF laser at the expense of SHDL. Helps Falco against short characters(kirby) but nerfs his really good matchups against characters who got shut down by SHDL.

Unlike bbrawl, physics changes already alter matchups. In order to accurately see how matchups have changed, data is needed. Thus, the long period of time b4 the next build or nightly.

I don't really agree with the SHFF laser, characters like kirby weren't something he had a problem with anyway.

Also, thats pretty much my point, the purpose of this thread is to point out the problems i have with how the updates have been run so far, and to tell people that we need to start focusing on this to get data

 

[SymphonicSage12]

I love SHFF laser. It's ****ing sweet, and less stupidly dumb than the SHDL.